Author Topic: The current difficulty (and a quick preview)  (Read 8526 times)

Offline Misery

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The current difficulty (and a quick preview)
« on: December 29, 2015, 10:40:09 am »
Okay!  So, we've come pretty far in all of this, and before going too much further, I wanted to ask:   What do you guys think about the game's current difficulty level?

Note that this is while keeping in mind the fact that enemies and most bosses are not gated by level yet, nor does any of them need to be unlocked.   So, tougher enemies can appear on lower floors.

This question is also specifically about normal mode.  Right now the other modes, for the most part, are not set up, aside from a few bosses having enhanced patterns.  They'll be done later as they really wont take all that much time to do.

So, what are your thoughts?  What things seem a bit easy, which ones seem really hard?  What makes things easy/hard overall for you?  Are there any weapons or items that seem to really change the difficulty overall right now?

The more detail you can provide, the better.



And because I can, a quick preview of the final boss (one of them, anyway):  http://imgur.com/a/zHgIJ

There's no randomness in the first 4 patterns; those are entirely aimed.   There's randomness in the 5th, but it doesnt function in the way it might appear to.  Very different from any other boss phase right now.  You might notice a specific thing that's different in that 5th screenshot.

There, showing that off a bit because I'm real pleased with how it's come out, and also just to give at least a little something since it's been awhile since there's been an update, with the holidays and all.   Also I'm bored and need a break from working on the blasted things.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 10:43:19 am by Misery »

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: The current difficulty (and a quick preview)
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2015, 12:40:08 pm »
Awesome looking boss! I think I've spotted what's different. :) I'll give some difficulty feedback later, heh.

Offline Misery

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Re: The current difficulty (and a quick preview)
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2015, 04:52:03 pm »
Awesome looking boss! I think I've spotted what's different. :) I'll give some difficulty feedback later, heh.

Sure, there's no rush.  Chances are, nothing in here is going to be acted on immediately.  Probably.  Depends on just what it is and how exactly a change might be accomplished if it seems like one should be made.  Mostly, this is just here to gather info about the current state of things (which isnt likely to change much in the next update, balance-wise).


Though I will note that a few specific pattern types have suddenly broken down, such as the green wall that Crystal Mother fires (argh).  So some things are not putting out the level of threat they're actually supposed to.  I'll try to remember to fix that tomorrow, I think I know what happened.

Offline The Hunter

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Re: The current difficulty (and a quick preview)
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2015, 10:28:36 pm »
So, what are your thoughts?  What things seem a bit easy, which ones seem really hard?  What makes things easy/hard overall for you?  Are there any weapons or items that seem to really change the difficulty overall right now?

While i have been really too busy lately to be up-to-date version-wise(sorry  :( ), but assuming nothing about shields/enemies changed from 0.205, its waaaay too easy. Mainly what makes is easy is shields, mainly the fact that they regen after every room, giving ridiculous amount of freedom as far as getting hit goes. And then there are items on top of that that act like shields after getting them can just flail around like drunk and still win.
Back when Archer ship type was a thing(Which had no shields), i actually found playing that reasonably hard in a fun way!

Offline Misery

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Re: The current difficulty (and a quick preview)
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2015, 07:25:24 am »
So, what are your thoughts?  What things seem a bit easy, which ones seem really hard?  What makes things easy/hard overall for you?  Are there any weapons or items that seem to really change the difficulty overall right now?

While i have been really too busy lately to be up-to-date version-wise(sorry  :( ), but assuming nothing about shields/enemies changed from 0.205, its waaaay too easy. Mainly what makes is easy is shields, mainly the fact that they regen after every room, giving ridiculous amount of freedom as far as getting hit goes. And then there are items on top of that that act like shields after getting them can just flail around like drunk and still win.
Back when Archer ship type was a thing(Which had no shields), i actually found playing that reasonably hard in a fun way!

Well, one way or another, the game just isnt meant for the hardcore shmup crowd.  It's meant to not be all that tough at all on Normal difficulty, though I'll be interested to see what happens when people go up against the Crescendo boss and it's 5 forms that I probably went overboard on.

The higher difficulties may be a bit different; I intend on getting really unpleasant with the Misery one in general.  An interesting challenge for experts will be to find and defeat the game's hidden "ultimate" boss; I have free reign on that one and have been told to make it hard enough that I myself can barely defeat it, which means it's going to be really absurd.  AKA, I can just go nuts with it.  That boss will probably only be available on that difficulty level.  Which makes sense, there's not going to be any point in fighting it if the player cant handle Misery mode.  The method for reaching it is undecided.

As the overall difficulty goes, the shield mechanic though is likely remaining.  One way or another, the game has a ton of bullets flying around much of the time, and plenty of people playing it wont be shmup experts.  Giving the player some leeway isnt a bad thing, in that context. 

Offline crazyroosterman

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Re: The current difficulty (and a quick preview)
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2015, 02:41:50 pm »
So, what are your thoughts?  What things seem a bit easy, which ones seem really hard?  What makes things easy/hard overall for you?  Are there any weapons or items that seem to really change the difficulty overall right now?

While i have been really too busy lately to be up-to-date version-wise(sorry  :( ), but assuming nothing about shields/enemies changed from 0.205, its waaaay too easy. Mainly what makes is easy is shields, mainly the fact that they regen after every room, giving ridiculous amount of freedom as far as getting hit goes. And then there are items on top of that that act like shields after getting them can just flail around like drunk and still win.
Back when Archer ship type was a thing(Which had no shields), i actually found playing that reasonably hard in a fun way!

Well, one way or another, the game just isnt meant for the hardcore shmup crowd.  It's meant to not be all that tough at all on Normal difficulty, though I'll be interested to see what happens when people go up against the Crescendo boss and it's 5 forms that I probably went overboard on.

The higher difficulties may be a bit different; I intend on getting really unpleasant with the Misery one in general.  An interesting challenge for experts will be to find and defeat the game's hidden "ultimate" boss; I have free reign on that one and have been told to make it hard enough that I myself can barely defeat it, which means it's going to be really absurd.  AKA, I can just go nuts with it.  That boss will probably only be available on that difficulty level.  Which makes sense, there's not going to be any point in fighting it if the player cant handle Misery mode.  The method for reaching it is undecided.

As the overall difficulty goes, the shield mechanic though is likely remaining.  One way or another, the game has a ton of bullets flying around much of the time, and plenty of people playing it wont be shmup experts.  Giving the player some leeway isnt a bad thing, in that context.
personally I feel that the difficulty's in a happy place at the moment but 2 questions 1 is the misery difficulty name after deliberately?

2 is Chris okay? I'm just asking since he appears to have vanished(I presume he's keeping him self busy but it doesn't hurt to ask)
c.r

Offline TheVampire100

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Re: The current difficulty (and a quick preview)
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2015, 03:53:17 pm »
Chris proably spends the holidays with his family (New Years Eve/Christmas), so I wouldn't worry so much about him.

About difficulty: I think it is fine at the moment. Coming from someone who never beat the game as of now (my record was fourth floor).
I think we need however a better spread between the difficulty of different floors. That stronger oppenent can appear on lower floors is in my opinion not a good design choice. I hate this at Isaac so much and considering this game is about upgrades and stuff, lower floors should have also easier enemies. Or maybe you can scale damage/health with the floor level.

I really hate it when I get murdered in the first room because of bad luck. That's what I hate about Isaac the most.


Offline Misery

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Re: The current difficulty (and a quick preview)
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2015, 05:46:40 pm »
So, what are your thoughts?  What things seem a bit easy, which ones seem really hard?  What makes things easy/hard overall for you?  Are there any weapons or items that seem to really change the difficulty overall right now?

While i have been really too busy lately to be up-to-date version-wise(sorry  :( ), but assuming nothing about shields/enemies changed from 0.205, its waaaay too easy. Mainly what makes is easy is shields, mainly the fact that they regen after every room, giving ridiculous amount of freedom as far as getting hit goes. And then there are items on top of that that act like shields after getting them can just flail around like drunk and still win.
Back when Archer ship type was a thing(Which had no shields), i actually found playing that reasonably hard in a fun way!

Well, one way or another, the game just isnt meant for the hardcore shmup crowd.  It's meant to not be all that tough at all on Normal difficulty, though I'll be interested to see what happens when people go up against the Crescendo boss and it's 5 forms that I probably went overboard on.

The higher difficulties may be a bit different; I intend on getting really unpleasant with the Misery one in general.  An interesting challenge for experts will be to find and defeat the game's hidden "ultimate" boss; I have free reign on that one and have been told to make it hard enough that I myself can barely defeat it, which means it's going to be really absurd.  AKA, I can just go nuts with it.  That boss will probably only be available on that difficulty level.  Which makes sense, there's not going to be any point in fighting it if the player cant handle Misery mode.  The method for reaching it is undecided.

As the overall difficulty goes, the shield mechanic though is likely remaining.  One way or another, the game has a ton of bullets flying around much of the time, and plenty of people playing it wont be shmup experts.  Giving the player some leeway isnt a bad thing, in that context.
personally I feel that the difficulty's in a happy place at the moment but 2 questions 1 is the misery difficulty name after deliberately?

2 is Chris okay? I'm just asking since he appears to have vanished(I presume he's keeping him self busy but it doesn't hurt to ask)

I'm genuinely not sure if I'm supposed to say anything or not about what everyone's doing, but I can say for certain that everyone is fine.  There's no problems or anything.  It'll be at least a couple of days before another update though.  But I think there's some interesting stuff coming up!  And I dont just mean the boss.   In particular there's a certain idea that Chris had that he has decided to implement into the game, and THAT bit should be unique, and I'm looking forward to it.  I probably shouldnt say anything else about it, but I think everyone will find it pretty darn interesting.  It'll break up the pacing really nicely.  I dont know just when that's coming though.

And despite the holidays, *I* am constantly here because I'm up much of the night and family events arent exactly happening at that time, so it doesnt interfere with stuff I want to do on the computer here.  And the forums dont stress me out like lots of other things do (in other words, it doesnt clash with the autism stuff for me).

As for the difficulty name, haha, that wasnt my idea.  It started with Bionic Dues actually after I kept saying that Expert difficulty wasnt hard enough.  I'd suggested a bunch of specific changes that could create a harder mode without giving the enemies even MORE shields/HP, and Chris went and jammed it into the game and called it "Misery" difficulty.  TLF has it too, under the combat difficulty selection specifically.  Was pretty flattered by it, honestly, definitely appreciated.

I'm good at helping to make things more absurd, really.   Well, depending on the type of game.

Chris proably spends the holidays with his family (New Years Eve/Christmas), so I wouldn't worry so much about him.

About difficulty: I think it is fine at the moment. Coming from someone who never beat the game as of now (my record was fourth floor).
I think we need however a better spread between the difficulty of different floors. That stronger oppenent can appear on lower floors is in my opinion not a good design choice. I hate this at Isaac so much and considering this game is about upgrades and stuff, lower floors should have also easier enemies. Or maybe you can scale damage/health with the floor level.

I really hate it when I get murdered in the first room because of bad luck. That's what I hate about Isaac the most.




Most enemies simply arent set to specific floor ranges now.  Aint gotten around to it yet.  There's still so many more of them coming, and new items are constantly coming out too, so the balance of the game is very much not set.  Also I kept forgetting.  I *think* I'm not the only one that's going to be setting the floor ranges though, which makes sense because I'm likely to end up just making things too hard if I do it all on my own. 

But yeah, that's why that's happening.  Enemies are just appearing basically everywhere right now, except for the absolute nastiest ones.  Not a design choice, just a fun side effect of the game still being developed.

Offline Bluddy

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Re: The current difficulty (and a quick preview)
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2015, 08:45:47 pm »
Until enemies are restricted to their floors, I don't think we can give any decent feedback about difficulty. There's no curve yet. Maybe make a preliminary version and then we can give some better feedback.

Offline Misery

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Re: The current difficulty (and a quick preview)
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2016, 07:11:31 am »
Until enemies are restricted to their floors, I don't think we can give any decent feedback about difficulty. There's no curve yet. Maybe make a preliminary version and then we can give some better feedback.

It's not about the curve right now; that'll come later.  I'm talking more of an overall "do you beat the game, or just die alot" sort of thing.

Currently, in my case this will be mostly influencing upcoming enemy/boss designs (a huge part of why I'm asking).

More in-depth discussion of difficulty beyond this will come later.  Just a simple overview for now.

Offline nas1m

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Re: The current difficulty (and a quick preview)
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2016, 02:15:31 pm »
Until enemies are restricted to their floors, I don't think we can give any decent feedback about difficulty. There's no curve yet. Maybe make a preliminary version and then we can give some better feedback.

It's not about the curve right now; that'll come later.  I'm talking more of an overall "do you beat the game, or just die alot" sort of thing.

Currently, in my case this will be mostly influencing upcoming enemy/boss designs (a huge part of why I'm asking).

More in-depth discussion of difficulty beyond this will come later.  Just a simple overview for now.
Definitely "Die a lot on the first to second floor" for me on Normal ;).
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Offline Pepisolo

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Re: The current difficulty (and a quick preview)
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2016, 02:35:42 pm »
No big complaints so far. It's a bit on the easy side for me, but I'm more of a hard level (although not Misery) gamer, I'd say. I would say that I don't find it a cakewalk on normal. I've never actually beaten the labyrinth boss, but I've only fought it a few times so far, I think. These are my general thoughts at the moment, difficulty seems to be in the right ballpark.

Offline Misery

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Re: The current difficulty (and a quick preview)
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2016, 03:17:49 pm »
Until enemies are restricted to their floors, I don't think we can give any decent feedback about difficulty. There's no curve yet. Maybe make a preliminary version and then we can give some better feedback.

It's not about the curve right now; that'll come later.  I'm talking more of an overall "do you beat the game, or just die alot" sort of thing.

Currently, in my case this will be mostly influencing upcoming enemy/boss designs (a huge part of why I'm asking).

More in-depth discussion of difficulty beyond this will come later.  Just a simple overview for now.
Definitely "Die a lot on the first to second floor" for me on Normal ;).

Huh.... I'm curious, is there anything specific that's giving you alot of trouble?  While it's true that enemies arent entirely gated by floor yet, the nastiest of them actually already ARE, and beyond that, alot of the really tough ones arent there yet.  This makes me wonder if there's something causing unintended trouble.

No big complaints so far. It's a bit on the easy side for me, but I'm more of a hard level (although not Misery) gamer, I'd say. I would say that I don't find it a cakewalk on normal. I've never actually beaten the labyrinth boss, but I've only fought it a few times so far, I think. These are my general thoughts at the moment, difficulty seems to be in the right ballpark.

Hmm, I'll be interested to see what happens when Hard mode is fully ready to go, then.  I'm starting to implement some of the hard-mode stuffs for normal enemies, but none of that is ready to go yet and it's not my real focus at the moment.

I'm curious though, what gives you trouble in the Labyrinth fight?  That one's meant to be fairly tough, but not THAT tough.

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: The current difficulty (and a quick preview)
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2016, 04:52:59 pm »
Quote
I'm curious though, what gives you trouble in the Labyrinth fight?  That one's meant to be fairly tough, but not THAT tough.

Not really, sure atm. I think it's probably fine, it's just I've only fought it a few times so far, and was probably playing pretty casually. If it stills gives me problems after a few more tries, I'll report back.

Offline nas1m

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Re: The current difficulty (and a quick preview)
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2016, 06:06:06 pm »
Until enemies are restricted to their floors, I don't think we can give any decent feedback about difficulty. There's no curve yet. Maybe make a preliminary version and then we can give some better feedback.

It's not about the curve right now; that'll come later.  I'm talking more of an overall "do you beat the game, or just die alot" sort of thing.

Currently, in my case this will be mostly influencing upcoming enemy/boss designs (a huge part of why I'm asking).

More in-depth discussion of difficulty beyond this will come later.  Just a simple overview for now.
Definitely "Die a lot on the first to second floor" for me on Normal ;).

Huh.... I'm curious, is there anything specific that's giving you alot of trouble?  While it's true that enemies arent entirely gated by floor yet, the nastiest of them actually already ARE, and beyond that, alot of the really tough ones arent there yet.  This makes me wonder if there's something causing unintended trouble.
Not sure here actually.
I used to be able to get to the fourth floor without too much trouble in the first builds actually.
This might have been caused by overpowered energy weapons, though (like acid sprayer iirc).

My attempt to switch from mouse to gamepad controls may be part of my subpar performance lately, though.
The analog stick aiming feels a little - sluggish, maybe? I don't know. I feel like I get less shots out that way -  and I definitely have not yet learned the firing directions associated to the face buttons by heart yet I guess. Diagonal aiming (which I did a lot using the mouse) also is much harder this way, at least to me...

Finally enemy gating, definitely is part of the issue, although maybe not always in the sense that you have in mind.
In some runs a lot of rooms feel quite crowded, especially with bigger enemies being around. So the occurance of certain enemies in certain rooms may well be part of the issue.

On the other hand I just might not be practicing enough - not much gaming time these days and I am getting rusty.
In general things are going fine until I get hit (which can take quite a number of rooms), but once I do I often seem to fail to extract myself from the situation in a graceful way, you know ;).
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