Author Topic: Engineering Building and Technology Pacing Issues- .872  (Read 3001 times)

Offline Mick

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Engineering Building and Technology Pacing Issues- .872
« on: June 04, 2015, 07:08:02 pm »
I just started the new game in .872. I like the new tech tree organization.

After placing my explorer camps (a step I find kinda arbitrary honestly), I decided to take micro-producation for my first tech and build a factory (because why not).

Factory was taking many many turns to finish. During this time, I researched a bunch of techs very fast. I feel like there are a bit of pacing issues with the initial glut of technologies. My factory tells me it has like 30 turns or something ridiculous and I'm finishing all the cheap techs before it even finishes. Why does the choice order really matter here?

I figured I might be 'doing it wrong' and the first thing I should really go for is the engineering building, since that lets you build things a whole lot quicker.

Am I correct in this assumption? If choosing engineering first over anything else is the way to go (by a huge margin), it feels like a newbie trap to throw all these other starter buildings at the player.

Offline crazyroosterman

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Re: Engineering Building and Technology Pacing Issues- .872
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2015, 07:21:26 pm »
I just started the new game in .872. I like the new tech tree organization.

After placing my explorer camps (a step I find kinda arbitrary honestly), I decided to take micro-producation for my first tech and build a factory (because why not).

Factory was taking many many turns to finish. During this time, I researched a bunch of techs very fast. I feel like there are a bit of pacing issues with the initial glut of technologies. My factory tells me it has like 30 turns or something ridiculous and I'm finishing all the cheap techs before it even finishes. Why does the choice order really matter here?

I figured I might be 'doing it wrong' and the first thing I should really go for is the engineering building, since that lets you build things a whole lot quicker.

Am I correct in this assumption? If choosing engineering first over anything else is the way to go (by a huge margin), it feels like a newbie trap to throw all these other starter buildings at the player.
absolutely engineering firms are one of the first buildings you should always build personally I think that factory's should move farther down the tech tree I tend not to use them at all in till much later any way.
c.r

Offline tbrass

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Re: Engineering Building and Technology Pacing Issues- .872
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2015, 08:00:07 pm »
Ahem,

Spoiler for Hiden:
Bank

But engineering is a nice choice, too. . .

Offline mooncows

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Re: Engineering Building and Technology Pacing Issues- .872
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2015, 08:49:51 pm »
^^^^ this. Every game.
ai war keeps kicking my ass

Offline kasnavada

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Re: Engineering Building and Technology Pacing Issues- .872
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2015, 12:31:25 am »
Currently I'm feeling that getting 3 engineering up, then bank, then food & buildings is the way to go.

That sounds wrong from a city-builder's perspective.
Usually a city-builder has me build food, then population centers. And then it requires jobs.


Also, why no tax on population ?

Offline ptarth

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Re: Engineering Building and Technology Pacing Issues- .872
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2015, 12:38:46 am »
I've spent some time thinking about it, I don't recall Chris ever stating anything, but the following is the result of what I've come up with:

The Bank system IS the tax system. (in one way of thinking about it).

Actually, before I bias you with my own tainted thinking, would you like to ponder a few questions before I tell you what I think? I have my own ideas, but they are just one random person's ideas.

The questions:
What is a crown?
How is it created?
And why is it the same unit of currency that all the other races use?
It isn't quite the same as today's paper money or even gold, is it?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 05:50:44 pm by ptarth »
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline kasnavada

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Re: Engineering Building and Technology Pacing Issues- .872
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2015, 01:13:22 am »
I didn't think about it that way, since it gives a flat bonus. But the "limitation" to the population might be interpreted that way.

Anyway, if it gave money dependant on the city population, I'd agree. It could be a good idea actually. It would differentiate industry (dependant on jobs & resources to make money) from "economy" (dependant on population).

To give an example currently banks require 1200 population for the "next" bank => for 600 population it gives 500 money.

It could also "reduce" the effect of the population cap. Currently I'm looking at the "economy?" tab (it has no name) every few turn to see if I can build those. But if you tie the economy production to the bank production there is no need to implement that cap. Finally you could imagine an "overworked building" for banks and similar buildings, which would, from the main interface, directly tell the player that another one is needed.


Quote
And why is it the same unit of currency that all the other races use.

Yes, that's a good suggestion. Different names for currencies / race. Do you want to mantis it ?


It also aims the player toward building food & early "cheap" production building instead of starting with a "large" building.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 01:15:45 am by kasnavada »

Offline ptarth

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Re: Engineering Building and Technology Pacing Issues- .872
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2015, 01:31:18 am »
Edit: So, before trying to make up mechanics for Crowns, I think it is important to think about what they are and what they mean. After playing and thinking about the game, I came up with the following thoughts about it. These thoughts are then appropriate for thinking about how crowns are manipulated in game. Likewise, considering how the background of the game works is relevant for the development of mechanics. In this case, our source of cannon comes from the videos, in-game text, and Chris's words on the topic. You take on the role of the supreme leader of a race crash landed on the planet. You have complete control over every aspect of your race. Each other person in your race has a neurolink which allows the immediate and complete spread of everything (knowledge, behaviors, sushi preferences, etc). You determine who is born, when, where they work, how they work, an what color of toenails they have. There are no children. People are effectively created from nothing into an adult. Your government is a complete dictatorship with no other influences. The economy, the social structures, the everything is determined by you. This makes a massive difference in what the currency crowns actually means. Perhaps I'm overthinking it.

Crowns are abstraction. They are some way of measuring your ability to do things in game. I rationalize it myself as thinking of them as effort, natural resources, tools, and so forth (i.e., stuff). Effectively, units of barter. So when you build a factory, it produces extra stuff. When you build a bank, your citizens produce more stuff in order to have stuff in their bank accounts (it is a scam, what do your citizens spend money on?).  Given that, having racial names for it seems out of place and unnecessary, especially since they just translate it back to 'our' language anyway.

Edit. And this is why I try to be brief, because otherwise I write too much text, probably much of which is redundant.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 01:39:50 pm by ptarth »
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline kasnavada

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Re: Engineering Building and Technology Pacing Issues- .872
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2015, 03:46:19 am »
 :-\
I don't understand why you say this:

Quote
Or, what is a crown? How is it created? And why is it the same unit of currency that all the other races use.
Just to say this afterwards:
Quote
Crowns are abstraction. They are some way of measuring your ability to do things in game. I rationalize it myself as thinking of them as effort, natural resources, tools, and so forth (i.e., stuff). Effectively, units of barter. So when you build a factory, it produces extra stuff. When you build a bank, your citizens produce more stuff in order to have stuff in their bank accounts (it is a scam, what do your citizens spend money on?).  Given that, having racial names for it seems out of place and unnecessary, especially since they just translate it back to 'our' language anyway.

To me it sounds like you're contradicting yourself. ???


Also I don't understand if it's supposed to be an answer to what I wrote or just a thought.


About the money "naming", most of the references to money are done via the money icon anyway. Having a different name showing in some menu might be a "gentle" reminder of the fact that we're playing different races. Or be confusing. Depending on "how" it's done and where it's used. It's unnecessary for "pure gameplay" but the main goal would be to help differentiating the different races. It might open the way to a bit more lore => IE if the spire's money are based on rocks, and they've got a racial bonus to money production when mining. Again, "might" is the keyword there.

Offline kasnavada

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Re: Engineering Building and Technology Pacing Issues- .872
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2015, 12:28:34 pm »
Quote
I don't see that as really adding very much flavor for the amount of work it would take.

I'd let Chris judge this, but I don't actually care when making proposals about the amount of work it would take. As long as it's "mostly" doable. I'll not ask a complete rework with unreal engine.

Quote
I had too much Plato in my education, so I end up asking a lot of questions as a rhetoric device. In this case, I have an idea about crowns are, however I didn't think you did. Rather than contaminate your ideas with my own, I wanted to make sure you got a chance to think about it before I' bias you. Then, I provided my own thoughts about it.

With all due respect, you're not Plato. The guy could did it because he was smarter and more knowledgeable than people around - and because he knew enough the people he spoke to to actually know what they knew.
What it actually feels on the other side is like you're contradicting yourself for no reason, and when stating that as a reason for your behaviour... let's be nice and tell it's probably very much not working as you're intending. Else I'll feel compelled to start a flame war again. Sorry about that part.


Finally, I've got absolutely no clue why you think it could I don't know what crowns would be. Nor why it would matter.


Anyway, I'll go mantis both ideas. I think the money name is going to be shot down too. But. Maybe in the "grand scheme" of thing it fits well within some theme that the devs imagined.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 12:40:20 pm by kasnavada »

Offline Mick

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Re: Engineering Building and Technology Pacing Issues- .872
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2015, 12:36:12 pm »
You don't have to be Plato to ask rhetorical questions. I didn't have trouble understanding what he meant.

Offline kasnavada

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Re: Engineering Building and Technology Pacing Issues- .872
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2015, 12:46:37 pm »
 :-\

Did I say that ?

PS : this is derailing this thread for no reason, really.

About what you said in teh OP, I think it's a good idea to leave "boosters buildings" early on even if it's impossible to place or too long because of its money cost, because it will point the player into placing the "future" "booster buildings" properly.

Otherwise, when the player unlocks the "booster buildings", he's going to feel like he has to restart building all over again.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 12:56:14 pm by kasnavada »

Offline Mick

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Re: Engineering Building and Technology Pacing Issues- .872
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2015, 12:57:23 pm »
Yes.

Offline kasnavada

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Re: Engineering Building and Technology Pacing Issues- .872
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2015, 01:13:12 pm »
Yes.

::) ...  Let's try to be clearer.

I quoted a whole paragraph. So I obviously meant what he did in the whole paragraph did not work. I'm not actually referring to the rethorical question only. Otherwise I would have quoted the "rethorical question" part only.

Basically, Plato could do all of those:
- ask a rethorical question (every one can do that)
- know what the people around knew (Ptarth has no clue what I think or know - he does not know me any more than I know him).
- answer a question by another question, and have the person he spoke understanding what he meant (Ptarth failed that, since I can't see any link between what he said, and what I asked or said).
- answer a question by asking another question which, out of context, would sound completely irrelevant, but make complete sense in context (Ptarth failed that, since I can't see any link between what he said, and what I asked or said).

That's actually what I'm reading in that entire quoted paragraph.

Is that clearer ?

PS :
This is still derailing the thread for no reason. If not clearer there is basically little I can do to be more understood. And this wasted too much of my time already.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 01:16:24 pm by kasnavada »

Offline Cinth

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Re: Engineering Building and Technology Pacing Issues- .872
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2015, 04:45:10 pm »
@ ptarth: I got what you were getting at.  I thought they way you phrased this
Quote
I think it is important to think about what they are and what they mean.
was spot on.  Classical philosophers had a wonderful way of looking at and processing what they observed.

@kasnavada:  Don't take this wrong but may I suggest a little outside reading? Socrates and Glaucon (pretty much any of their dialogs) and see where ptarth is coming from (as to how he phrased his remarks up there). 

And to the relevance of ptarth's meanderings, I present;

why no tax on population ?

and

The Bank system IS the tax system. (in one way of thinking about it).

Or, what is a crown? How is it created? And why is it the same unit of currency that all the other races use.

ptarth was partially answering his own question by working it out and using dialog here in this thread.  There is no reason to pick that apart.  If you are having problems following what's being said, ask questions, don't throw stones.
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