Moba balance comparison, please comment

[Lancefighter]

If you belong in plat, then you should be able to make it there yourself *shrug*

Saying that duo queue is the only way to advance sounds to me like you are relying a lot on getting carried.

[Wingflier]

If you belong in plat, then you should be able to make it there yourself *shrug*

Saying that duo queue is the only way to advance sounds to me like you are relying a lot on getting carried.

I would make it to plat if the game was 1v1

But if the system puts me with people who troll on purpose, feed, don't listen to advice, etc., there's not much I can do.

If you win 90% of your solo queue games, I venture to say you just got lucky.  For my placement matches, I won 9 out of 10 of them, which placed me in Gold, and that was when I had no experience with ranked whatsoever.  I'm a much better player in Ranked since then, yet I continue to lose over 80% of my solo queue games.  Why?  I'm probably just unlucky.

You even said yourself earlier in our discussion, 80% of the games are decided by factors out of your control.  40% of the time your team will win with or without you.  40% your team will lose with or without you.  It's that 20% of the time that you can really make the difference.

So if that theory is true, then in Ranked you'll only win about 60% of the time in solo queue, and that's if you're lucky.  Sometimes you'll do better, sometimes you'll do worse.  I played about ~15 games and lost 13 of them or so.  It's not because I was playing bad, it's because I was unlucky.

All you're doing by duo queuing is increasing your odds of winning.  You get control over whether another member of your team will be good, so obviously this makes you chances of winning much higher.

I talked to a guy who is in Diamond right now (he was around 2350 before the change), and he gave me the same advice.  So unless you want to say that someone carried him to 2350, which I know they didn't because he's an amazing player, then maybe it's just a good idea to listen to players better than yourself.  In the online streams I watch where professional players such as Voyboy and Santvicious solo rank, they always duo as well.  They must be getting carried too.

[Lancefighter]

mm Yeah, that sounds about right. I could make arguments however citing extreme cases (a clearly high elo player playing seriously in low elo SHOULD stomp the game almost 100% of the time), but I am not sure as to how effective that is in reality. And overall, that just sounds a lot like I'm trying to take back what I said earlier anyway.


My point is that yes, I probably was pretty lucky.

Still, through duoqueue, unless you are queueing with someone who is ACTUALLY good, it likely wont make that much of a difference. As I said earlier - I duoqueued with one of my friends (who honestly I believe is around low gold). Despite my partner not being bad at the game, its most accurate to say that I dont believe my partner to have been able to carry a gold level game - And thus is no better than any of my other teammates.

Sure, it should be that I am the one to carry said games, if I do believe myself to be of higher elo, but I think the point I am making is that duoqueueing isnt always going to be beneficial.

[Wingflier]

I guess it just depends on who you're duo queuing with.

In my view there are two different factors:

Your deserved rating, and your actual rating.

Your actual rating is what you have after x amount of games, your deserved rating is roughly what your skill level justifies.

So someone could have an actual rating of 1200, but have a deserved rating of 1800.  It happens all the time.  If during your placement matches you get trolled, get d/cers (happens quite often in ranked games), have some bad teams, or just have some bad games, you may get put way below where you deserve.  From there, it's an uphill climb to get to where you should be.  The problem is that the lower the rating goes, the more likely you are to encounter trolls, disconnectors, and feeders.  Higher ELOs sort those players out by virtue of requiring wins to progress.  So in a sense, ELO hell is very real, and while you may be able to get out of it over a long period of time, you'll meet a lot of heartache and resistance along the way.

I simply play with people whose deserved rating is probably around platinum or diamond, but who are still stuck in silver or low gold.  That way, assuming that the other players in the game actually belong in their ELO, it's an absolute stomp.  This is because 2 people who deserve a much higher rating than what they have, will obviously make much more of an impact that 1 person.

Edit:  As a solo queuer, I think it also depends on what lane and champion you play as well.  If you're a really good Kat mid, for example, you could probably carry a lot more games than an Irelia top.  This is because Katarina is one of the snowballiest champions in the game.  She can crush most mid lanes (especially against lesser-skilled players), then gank top, bot, and jungle by virtue of being mid.  In addition to this, she also wrecks in team fights as well, meaning at no point in the game does she ever stop becoming useful.

So my point is, there are probably some cheesy roles and champions you could learn (*cough* Khazix) that would be much more tailored for solo queue games, but I like to play what I want to play, not what I have to play to capitalize on bad players.

[Lancefighter]

Odd, i just picked tristana and stomped all the bot lanes.

[Wingflier]

Yes but didn't you say yourself that Tristana excels at killing enemy players at level 6, then snowballing from there? 

That's an example of what I mean. 

It's kind of like when I first started playing Starcraft 2.  I literally got to Rank 1 Diamond, the highest rating possible at the time, simply by using a cheesy Zerg Rush Strategy.  However, I couldn't keep that rating for long because the best players knew how to deal with it.

It's the same with the Tristana burst.  It's going to work well for a long time, and give you the ability to do something that most ADCs can't do, which is be powerful early game AND lategame.  But once you get to a level of play where people aren't stupid enough to just let you kill them at 6 every time (at least without some risk), the games will start to reach your skill level.

That's my theory anyway.

[Lancefighter]

To be fair, I'm pretty sure youve been arguing with me for a few days about how bad tristana is.

And yes, she does have to downsides .I've spent enough time with her to feel comfortable with them at least, so its not going to be quite a shock when it no longer works. There was a point when I needed to completely relearn how i played riven, which was pretty annoying. Then again, more annoying was trying to lane against singed.. Or yorick..

Anyway, more digression. Yeah, sure, for a while I will be able to play tristana as I do. Maybe at some point theyll exhaust me midjump and I will be really sad. And you would imagine that someone would pick like graves/taric and try to do the same thing..

Overall, I just feel that being practiced with a champion is far more important than anything else. I have put many hundred games in with tristana, and I am fairly confident in most all matchups, in many varying situations.

In starcraft, I did something similar. I had this really stupid marine/marauder push that happened early enough to be called a rush. if I did it right, basically free win. Problem was, I had no real macro game if that failed. then at some point it started failing, and I swapped to protoss. Toss are a cooler race anyway.

[Wingflier]

I think I was wrong about Trist.  I've seen her in some Ranked games now, and in some competitive games.  She's decent.  I still don't think she's as reliable as the other carries, but a niche pick like Kogmaw that works well in certain lineups.

[Lancefighter]

I'm actually kinda surprised kog hasnt seen a resurgence with the recent hp meta. Unless of course its still the case that he dies too easily? I can understand vayne, with her exceptionally short range might be difficult to deal with in the lategame, but kog has the range of nearly two tristanas..

[Wingflier]

Kog's laning phase is abysmal. When picking Kog you're basically guaranteeing a lost laning phase, or at best, an even one.  Even when you ignore his lack of escape mechanism, which requires you to build a team of peelers for him, you also still have to worry about his unfortunate laning phase.  This does, however, make him a good counterpart to an enemy Vayne or other ADC with a similarly useless laning phase.

Despite that I still see him sometimes.  I think he was used successfully in the Curse vs. CLG game just the other day.

[chemical_art]

I can't wait to be able to not play with useless supports at bot:

I had a nunu support who did not:

-Use his steroid on the carry more then 10% of the time (it is easy to do it at least 90% of the time) in both laning and in teamfights
-Know when to buy wards, let alone place them outside lanning phase
-Know who to focus in a teamfight
-Get a pink ward at any point of the game due to fighting twitch
-Have a single aura 30 minutes into the game


It's doubly aggravating because bot is my specialty, so I notice every little thing any support of mine can do since I've played said support a lot.

[Wingflier]

Was this in a ranked game?  What League are you in?

[chemical_art]

Ranked placement match number 7

[Wingflier]

Gah, watching LoL competitive games is so frustrating.

Sometimes you can tell who's going to win right at the selection screen.

In this game AAA vs. GMB one team got a Shen, and the other team got Vi, Khazix, Caitlyn, and Lulu.  Now whether or not you want to argue that some of these champions are overpowered (don't know how you could deny that Khaz is overpowered) you have to admit that getting all of these champions gives your team a HUGE advantage.

Which is what makes watching competitive LoL so frustrating.  It seems like the team with the most overpowered champions wins, GG.  Only games which are undecided is when both sides have an equal amount of overpowered on each side.

And for the next patch, with heroes like Elise, Khazix, and Lulu running around, they want to nerf TARIC, XIN, and Amumu?  Holy crap Riot.  How they can continue to focus on the slightly broken champs and completely ignore the overwhelmingly overpowered champions is absolutely beyond me.

edit:  And the fact that it's 27 minutes into the game and there are 4 kills...zzz.  Seriously Riot, you've got to make this game more exciting to watch.

[Lancefighter]

But older champions are totally supposed to be viable next to newer ones! Like.. Yi. Yi is a really viable champion, right?