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Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: Wingflier on November 29, 2012, 03:48:18 AM

Title: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on November 29, 2012, 03:48:18 AM
Yeah, I know, it's this thread again.  Honestly though, I'm trying to be civil this time and give League of Legends a fair chance.  In fact, I've been doing that for a lot of things in my life, for example reading a really interesting book called "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel, even though I'm very firmly atheist.

In other words, I'm trying to turn a new leaf here.  I don't want to be the angry, judgmental person that I was before, I would really like to delve into an open-minded investigation of this matter and get the community's opinion on this topic.

The reason I'm doing this is because I'd like to make a DotA 2 vs. LoL youtube video that gives both games a fair review and treatment, with as little bias as possible, for people interested in the genre.  For example, I've already thought of many of the categories.  League of Legends wins in learning curve.  Ease of use.  And it's community is 1 million times better than DotA 2's.  It's so surprising not to get raged at when I make a small mistake in League, which is really refreshing and also something that is rare to find in a DotA 2 game.  I really respect LoL's community for that reason, and I'm impressed with Riot for having such great results.

The category I'm interested in now though is balance.  I want to believe that League of Legends has good balance, or that there's something I just don't understand, but when I see heroes like Rengar and Vayne, among many others, who are just miles ahead of all the rest, I get extremely frustrated at the game.

For example, I like to play Ashe.  I like playing Ashe because she's a simple, positionally-based carry.  In DotA, some of my favorite heroes to play are positionally-based heroes.  In other words, powerful heroes who can make a huge impact on the game, but whom don't have any strong escape mechanisms, meaning that your positioning skill makes all the difference.

However, the more I play Ashe, the more I get the impression that positionally-based carries suck.  For one thing, I'm forced to take Ghost and Flash; if I don't get those escape moves, I'm in serious trouble and I'll probably die constantly.  So already, the idea of playing the game with superior positioning has kind of been thrown out the window.  In addition, even with Ghost and Flash, I feel so useless compared to other ranged carries such as Vayne and Graves.  They do so much more damage than I do, with similar farm, and at least with Vayne, have powerful escape mechanisms to boot.  Vayne does massive amounts of true damage, she can knock her targets back, she can dash every few seconds, and even go invisible in a pinch.

To confirm my suspicions I go online to Elementz tier list, and see that Ashe is in Tier 3 for both solo queue and competitive play.  Much to my surprise, there are ranged carries that are in even WORSE positions than Ashe (it's hard for me to believe after playing several games with her, compared to other, much more superior carries).

My complaint is not that Ashe is slightly underpowered.  Like okay, I get that, perfect balance is impossible.  My complaint is that Ashe is so godly underpowered compared to these other carries that she is a joke.  I often play with a full team of 5 friends all on Skype, and they won't even let me pick Ashe.  Is it because I'm a bad player?  No.  They just realize that there are so many better carries out there.  I can't blame them, we usually lose when I do.  So when my friend picks Vayne instead we roflstomp the game.

How can the balance be that bad?

When I play DotA 2, there is a hero that is functionally very similar to Ashe named Drow Ranger.  She is a ranged female hard carry with no escape mechanisms and frost arrows (it seems like Ashe was based off of Drow in many ways).  But the difference between Drow and Ashe is that Drow is actually really good.  Drow scales extremely well into lategame, she gives all the ranged heroes on her entire team a powerful +dmg aura, and she can even give allied ranged creeps her aura too, for mega full-map pushing power!

Yes, she's similar to Ashe in that if she gets caught out, she's dead; but her strengths make up for this glaring weakness, where Ashe's strengths do not.

So fellow League players, please offer your input on this situation.  Is LoL's balance really just that bad, or is there something I don't quite understand?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on November 29, 2012, 10:27:18 AM
Thats odd. Just last night my people on mumble were commenting that they wanted to fp me ashe.

Of course, that goes back to a different thing - WHen I just dont care anymore, I tend to pick ashe. And I tend to stomp people INCREDIBLY hard, despite teams of irelia/darius/leona/graves/etc. (not actually a team, just heros that suck to play against)

See, the thing about ashe is that she has incredible early game strength. She does not *need* ghost and flash all of the time, and can be incredibly aggressive by virtue of abusing her range and slow, incredibly safely.
Its not really about ashe having steroids like trist or nukes like graves - its entirely about her strength in mechanics. As you said, a positional carry must have good positioning.. But must also have amazing mechanics. You must be able to orbwalk incredibly well, you must be able to know your limits very precisely, and just as importantly, know your enemies. Know what leonas zenith blade looks like, and avoid it. Know darius's pull, and know if you are in range to need to flash it. And I think I mentioned that you must orbwalk like man - Be INCREDIBLY aggressive when you have a small advantage. That is ashe's strength.

Id love to write a longer response, but I'm about to be late for class.

Oh, yeah, and i find balance in league to generally be pretty bad, but i could rant for quite a long time on how i believe riot went wrong . and now I'm late. thanks.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on November 29, 2012, 10:54:42 AM
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Thats odd. Just last night my people on mumble were commenting that they wanted to fp me ashe.

Of course, that goes back to a different thing - WHen I just dont care anymore, I tend to pick ashe. And I tend to stomp people INCREDIBLY hard, despite teams of irelia/darius/leona/graves/etc. (not actually a team, just heros that suck to play against)

See, the thing about ashe is that she has incredible early game strength. She does not *need* ghost and flash all of the time, and can be incredibly aggressive by virtue of abusing her range and slow, incredibly safely.
Its not really about ashe having steroids like trist or nukes like graves - its entirely about her strength in mechanics. As you said, a positional carry must have good positioning.. But must also have amazing mechanics.
Ah okay, thanks!  I knew it might just be me then :P

Does League have replays now?  I'd love to see a replay of you using Ashe. 

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Oh, yeah, and i find balance in league to generally be pretty bad, but i could rant for quite a long time on how i believe riot went wrong . and now I'm late. thanks.
Could you elaborate more on this when you get the time?

Sorry for making you late for class (if it makes you feel any better, typing this is going to cause me to be late too!).
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on November 29, 2012, 11:09:39 AM


Does League have replays now?   


With the game, no?

[Stream of ranting of how riots are idiots for not supporting replays]

There is a program called Lol replay that is very lightweight that records the game. It is a small download, is very efficient while recording both for the file size and the performance hit (or lack thereof). Unfortunately, it requires the game itself to view the replays, since that is what allows the program to be so light.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: madcow on November 29, 2012, 11:36:10 AM
As a non-moba player (the only one I've played is awesomenauts which has less than a dozen heroes), I honestly can't see how there can be as many hero choices in the games as there are and still have balance while keeping them from being clones of each other.

Seems to me that the more choices you throw in, the harder it is to keep them balanced. Which isn't necessarily so bad so long as there isn't one overly strong (as opposed to being overly weak which is excusable).

Again this is the perspective of somebody that hasn't played LoL, HoN, DoTA, or any of those.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on November 29, 2012, 11:39:00 AM
The issue here on your evaluation of LoL is just lack of experience with the game.  On Ashe, and ranged carries in general:

1) Auto-Attack champions, especially ranged, are much less likely to be as dominate in LoL as DOTA because while they scale really well into late game, they don't scale as strongly as in DOTA.  So even if Ashe had identical abilities to Drow Ranger, she wouldn't be as strong relative to her team.  Auto-Attack champions are important end-game in LoL, but you absolutely need the rest of your team to protect and support you.  You never get to the point of two-shotting everyone on the enemy team back-to-back in a competitive game.

2) Ashe is all about her ult.  You either win or lose by it.  It is one of the absolutely strongest initiates in the game.  But you really need your team ready to go in the instant you use it or you lose most of its power.  This makes her a fairly poor choice in solo queue unless you are really highly ranked and people know what having Ashe with her ult up means end-game.  This also means you can't miss your ult.  When you miss your ult, your team is vulnerable until it comes back up.  You need to be insanely good hitting with it, at all ranges, angles and even blindly.  A blind Ashe ult into brush with your team following up can turn the game around.

3) Speed is incredibly important for Ashe players.  You need to know not really the exact number, but the feel of each opponents speed.  You need this so you know if you can push out safely (because you can kite everyone on the enemy team who is MIA) or not.  You also need to have a good enough feel for speeds that you can land blind ults on moving targets.

4) You absolutely must be able to kite.  This is sometimes called orb-walking in DOTA, but it isn't really as much animation-canceling in LoL as in DOTA.  But with Q on, alternating Move and Attack-Move to fire arrows behind you on someone chasing is a critical skill, and one you need to be able to do without thinking about it.

5) Ashe has amazing range.  While her auto-attack is great, her Volley is brutally long.  Early game you can cause a ton of pain with this.  If you have a good support, it is very easy to get into a good zoning situation.

6) Interestingly, Ashe is actually decent even when she gets shut down.  This is pretty unusual for ranged carries.  I've actually had someone play support Ashe before (I don't recommend this).  But because she has a massive AOE snare in Volley, and her ult is always excellent, you can switch to a support role if you personally got shut down but the rest of your team is doing ok.  I believe she is the only ranged carry that can do this effectively.

7) ElementZ tier list is pretty accurate, and Tier 3 sounds about right for Ashe.  Right now the in-carries are Ezreal, Corki and Graves.  Ez and Corki both have excellent escapes and great poke.  Graves is very bursty, has a bit of escape, and is a bit tougher than most other ranged carries.  But the big difference between all three and Ashe is Ashe can win a game with just her ult.  None of the others can.  They are just about killing stuff.  Which is good and all.  But when you want some CC on your ranged carry, Ashe is the best place to go.  Also, as low at Tier 3 sounds, I can regularly win games with quite a few champs in Tier 3.

On Vanye:
1) She's really weak early game; one of the worst ranged carries.  You need to shut her down then.  If you let her get to late game, she's particularly rough.  You want to crush her farm and ideally deny her some xp through zoning before she hits 4-5.  If you can get a one level lead on her, and keep her CS down she's in a lot of trouble.  Unlike Ashe, she doesn't bring anything if she doesn't have a ton of gold.

2) However, she is best against bruisers.  If your team isn't all that beefy, a lot of Vanye's potential is wasted and your team can just burst her down.

3) Vanye needs 3 hits on the same target to trigger her silver bolts (or 2 + her E).  She can get one super-tight combo with auto-attack+Q (rolling and attacking before the first auto-attack lands)+E.  But then Q and E are on cooldown.  After that, her attack speed is what matters.  Frozen Heart and Warden's Mail->Omen on your team really hurt her more than almost any other ranged carry.

On balance:
LoL actually has really good balance.  It isn't perfect, but there are a huge number of competitively viable champions (can't find the numbers, but S2 champions had like 70% picked or something insane).  I just picked up Awesomenauts, and even though I made it to League 2 (League 1 is the top), I just don't have enough games to have any idea how good their balance is.  Balance evaluation requires a lot of experience and a lot of effort avoid emotional bias.  It is not easy to do at all.  The weakest aspect of LoL is currently being addressed in S3 (hopefully): A) Jungle has too much control over game flow, B) Itemization has holes and lacks important decisions.

A) Jungle ganks are were all the flow is right now.  Lanes can't be aggressive because jungle ganks are so strong and fast.  As a result, all the action is controlled by and centered around the jungle.  Anyone who doesn't have a super-strong gank can't jungle because then his team puts no pressure on the enemy.

B) You can basically list out the majority of every champions item build at the start of the game.  There is a little variety in most games.  Nearly every ranged AD is IE+LW+PD+Boots+Angel+Other (often Bloodthirster).  Beyond that, you don't really have the ability to buy items situationally.  There are a few, like Quicksilver Sash, but even that is nearly on the BKB-level with some players always buying it.

So even though LoL and DOTA2 are similar, they aren't the same game.  There is a ton of difference between the two.  Even really small things have a huge impact.  Making balance judgements on a game you don't have a ton of experience with is really tough.  Just comparing the scope of abilities (range and AOE) between the two games shows an entirely difference philosophy on team fight balance.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on November 29, 2012, 11:42:22 AM
As a non-moba player (the only one I've played is awesomenauts which has less than a dozen heroes), I honestly can't see how there can be as many hero choices in the games as there are and still have balance while keeping them from being clones of each other.

Seems to me that the more choices you throw in, the harder it is to keep them balanced. Which isn't necessarily so bad so long as there isn't one overly strong (as opposed to being overly weak which is excusable).

Again this is the perspective of somebody that hasn't played LoL, HoN, DoTA, or any of those.
This is my general view as well. Even the MOBA I used to play back then (Demigod) had issues with just 8 heroes. Though those were eventually balanced out by patches, and even later, by fanmade mods, there were still issues with as little as 8 heroes.

Thankfully, the heroes (or Demigods) in DG were vastly different, so you never really felt you had any kind of repetition going to another god.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: zespri on November 29, 2012, 12:56:58 PM
Sorry if not relevant, but I can draw parallels, so here it is. Yomi (http://www.sirlingames.com/collections/yomi) is a fighting game, not a computer one though, but a card game. It does have a browser version (http://www.fantasystrike.com/game/index.php) though.

The game itself has a reputation of meticulously balanced among its fans, however, if you look at the match up list you will see this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjbvzAdKM6GOdEZfdE9QOUZPWUE1YlAwYkh2LUFBd2c&pli=1&hl=en#gid=0

(Only) 10 Heroes, and still some have clearly better match up's overall and some have clearly worse. (The numbers in the table means that this is how many games you are expected to win out of ten given roughly the same skills against a given hero).

It's interesting how they compile this table. First of all I think they have bulk statistics from the game server that they pulled out. Given that this statistic does not always show players of similar level of skills, "professional" players chimed in correcting figures, until some sort of consensus was not reached as to what feels right.

The bottom line is: even with only 10 Hero, there is no perfect balance, and still some people will tell you that the game is balanced exceptionally well.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on November 29, 2012, 01:14:48 PM
Before I start I want to thank everybody for responding in a timely, lengthy, and respectful fashion!

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The issue here on your evaluation of LoL is just lack of experience with the game.  On Ashe, and ranged carries in general:
Definitely could be, it's been a long time since I've last played.  Seems to have changed a lot.

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Auto-Attack champions are important end-game in LoL, but you absolutely need the rest of your team to protect and support you.  You never get to the point of two-shotting everyone on the enemy team back-to-back in a competitive game.
It's interesting that you should say that, because I commonly see Vayne, Graves, and Kogmaw basically killing people in a few shots, or at least within a couple seconds late game.  In other words, I see carries becoming just as powerful in LoL as I do in DotA.

They may not kill TANKS in two shots, but you can't kill a tank in two shots in DotA either, unless your farm is exponentially better than his.

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2) Ashe is all about her ult.  You either win or lose by it.  It is one of the absolutely strongest initiates in the game.  But you really need your team ready to go in the instant you use it or you lose most of its power.
Maybe I need to go cooldown reduction then?  It seems like it has such a long cooldown.  I use magic resist per level blues, and my Masteries are 21/0/9, and don't include any extra cooldown stuff.  My item build doesn't really include cooldown reduction either.  Is that part of my problem?

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4) You absolutely must be able to kite.  This is sometimes called orb-walking in DOTA, but it isn't really as much animation-canceling in LoL as in DOTA.  But with Q on, alternating Move and Attack-Move to fire arrows behind you on someone chasing is a critical skill, and one you need to be able to do without thinking about it.
Well yeah, you couldn't play Drow if you didn't know how to orb walk and kite.

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1) She's really weak early game; one of the worst ranged carries.  You need to shut her down then.  If you let her get to late game, she's particularly rough.  You want to crush her farm and ideally deny her some xp through zoning before she hits 4-5.  If you can get a one level lead on her, and keep her CS down she's in a lot of trouble.  Unlike Ashe, she doesn't bring anything if she doesn't have a ton of gold.
I see how you shut a carry down in DotA (there is denying, creep pulling, and everytime you kill them they lose a lot of gold), but how do you do it in League?  It seems like no matter how hard you try, eventually carries are going to get farmed.  I guess you can try to push and end the game quickly, but that doesn't seem like what teams do in League.  Vayne is not that bad in a lane.  She's got a good built-in escape mechanism, and if she hits you three times she does a shitload of true damage.  Paired with a good support, in my experience it's just as easy for her to get first blood as it is for Ashe, and much safer in the process.  I could be wrong though.

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2) However, she is best against bruisers.  If your team isn't all that beefy, a lot of Vanye's potential is wasted and your team can just burst her down.
Haven't really played against a team in League...since well...ever that wasn't full of tanky DPS.  Even the mages often build tanky, and still dish out quite a bit of damage.  This just seems like a moot point.  Show me a team of Veigar, Ashe, Shaco, Soraka, etc. and I'll grant you that sometimes you aren't facing tanky DPS.  Tanky DPS just seems like a staple of League balance, for better or for worse.  Heroes like Vayne and Kogmaw will always have their place.

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A) Jungle ganks are were all the flow is right now.  Lanes can't be aggressive because jungle ganks are so strong and fast.  As a result, all the action is controlled by and centered around the jungle.  Anyone who doesn't have a super-strong gank can't jungle because then his team puts no pressure on the enemy.
This is one thing that has really bothered me, and one of the things that makes me uneasy about League's balance.

In DotA, there IS no correct lane composition.  It doesn't go:  1 bruiser top, 1 AP carry mid, 1 jungle, 2 bot (carry+support).  It goes:  Whatever the hell your team decides to do.  Literally, think of a lane composition, and it's probably been done successfully. 

However, I can see the opposing argument which is:  That's what makes League so balanced, because there's only 1 lane composition, and everything can be balanced around that. 

I suppose that would be a good argument, and then it would just be two different types of balance:  Dynamic balance vs. Predictable balance (or something along those lines).  DotA balances its game to be emergent, where League balances the game to be stable.

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B) You can basically list out the majority of every champions item build at the start of the game.  There is a little variety in most games.  Nearly every ranged AD is IE+LW+PD+Boots+Angel+Other (often Bloodthirster).  Beyond that, you don't really have the ability to buy items situationally.  There are a few, like Quicksilver Sash, but even that is nearly on the BKB-level with some players always buying it.
That's another thing that makes me a bit wary too.

In DotA, there is no right item build for heroes.  Depending on the hero, your lineup, their lineup, and how the game is going, the item builds can change dramatically from hero to hero.  In addition, your friends don't expect you to go a certain build, then get mad at you when you don't.  Last night when I was playing League, I picked Amumu for the first time in ages.  Back when I used to play him Philosopher Stone was considered one of the worst items in the game, and even Shurelia's Reverie was still just okay compared to some other tank items.

So instead of going for Philo Stone, I went for Heart of Gold->Randuin's Omen instead.  When my "friend" in Skype realized I wasn't building Shurelia's, he raged at me for the rest of the game.  He couldn't understand WHY you wouldn't go Shurelia's on Amumu, and kept emphasizing the importance of that 3 second burst of speed or whatever.  I kept saying we would be fine without it, but he made it quite clear that we, in fact, would not be fine without it, and that I needed to get it even though I was currently working on other things.  It just seemed like there was this massive implication that you BUILD Amumu a certain way, or you're failing your team, and that really bothered me.  In DotA, there is no ONE way to build a support/tank.  You can go Vanguard, Blink Dagger, Blademail, Mekansm, Pipe of Insight, BKB, or whatever, and as long as you're contributing to the team, they usually won't give you a ton of slack.  Granted, people LIKE the more team-oriented items such as Pipe of Insight, but still, if you're doing your job well, you probably won't get raged at by your friends.

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So even though LoL and DOTA2 are similar, they aren't the same game.  There is a ton of difference between the two.  Even really small things have a huge impact.  Making balance judgements on a game you don't have a ton of experience with is really tough.  Just comparing the scope of abilities (range and AOE) between the two games shows an entirely difference philosophy on team fight balance.
This is definitely true, and it's what I suspected it boiled down to.  I've played dota since I was 16 years old (9 years ago).  I'm so used to the DotA balance that it I'm coming to realize that LoL balance probably isn't that bad, I just don't understand it.  That's why I'm having you guys explain it to me a little more so I can understand the game better.

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The bottom line is: even with only 10 Hero, there is no perfect balance, and still some people will tell you that the game is balanced exceptionally well.
So are you implying that League's balance is good amongst a small pool of overpowered champions?  I really don't see what the connection is here.

For example, Super Smash Brothers Melee is considered to be an extremely well-balanced game, even though less than half the cast are even useful, and even though Sakurai, the designer, literally came out and said, many times, that he purposely tried to make the game casual, and skew the balance away from a competitive aspect.  In fact, many of the "skills" that later defined the competitive aspect of Melee, were bugs in the game that players have refined into difficult "techniques".  In other words, the balance of the game was a mere accident.  It was never meant to be balanced.  The techniques that people use were never meant to be in the game.  Is that good balance?

Well, I don't personally think so.

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on November 29, 2012, 01:22:01 PM
As far as lane composition goes:

In regional tournaments in different areas (for teams who ultimately don't come to NA so called "world" tournaments), I've heard that there is some success with varying lane compositions, such as a 1 top, 2 mid, 1 bot, and one early jungle who mostly pushes the tower on mid.

Again, that's only what I've heard of.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on November 29, 2012, 01:41:04 PM
Auto-Attacks 2-shoting in LoL:
This only happens when you get a big farm difference.  Basically, when the game is won.  When both teams are at even gold levels, carries just aren't dominating people that fast.  Yes it is faster than any other champion in LoL, but not as fast as DOTA from what I've read in discussion on the matter.  Basically, LoL has tried very hard to avoid hyper-carries.  They want every champion to be able to have a big impact in end-game if played well with good farm (and some, mainly support, to have big impacts even without farm).

CDR on Ashe:
This is really more of a support-Ashe thing.  Normally you are the ranged carry so you can't afford to waste any gold on CDR as a ranged carry.  However, Ghost Blade might be workable on her, and that has CDR in addition to damgae and armor penetration.

Denying in LoL:
This is intentionally tougher, and basically impossible to do completely.  But to deny in LoL, you need to get yourself (or your support) in between the creeps that are fighting and the enemy.  This pushes them out of XP range and last hitting range.  You really need to control creep position, which is very tricky since you can't deny.  This is called zoning (I'd guess DOTA has the same term).  It is nearly impossible to do for more than a wave or two.  So eventually the wave will pushes toward the enemy and they'll get some farm.  Ideally your side has some way to still make them miss last hits...you won't be able to stop them from getting xp.  Also, once you can't zone anymore, you generally push hard to get your creep under the tower were they are harder to last hit.  Vayne in particular has trouble last hitting under tower as none of her abilities really help her.

The result of successful denying is the enemy will be 1-2 levels lower than you, and much lower in CS and hence gold.  You can get a 50 CS lead.  Your jungler can make zoning even worse by ganking from behind when your minions are under the tower.  Often the enemy that has been zoned has been sitting around at low health from your pokes waiting for the few last hits or bits of xp they might be able to sneak.  Once the creeps get under their tower they are frantically trying to get any last hits.  A 3v2 is can easily get one or two kills.  If you get kills at this point, you'll be able to dominate the lane because your auto-attack damage will chunk them so hard they can't even stay in lane after 2-3 hits.

Sometimes people will actually leave the bottom tower alive when they've beaten the enemy just so the enemy ranged carry can't farm creeps more safely from his side of the map when your creeps push past the dead tower.

The support on your side will heavily affect whether you can zone well.  A good poke support helps a ton.

Bruisers:
God, I hate them.  For at least 6 months, bruisers were everywhere!  They still are pretty strong, but its been toned down a lot.  So you may have been playing during the height of that.  They are a lot less common now.  Most teams end up with one real bruiser (top) at this point.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on November 29, 2012, 01:50:12 PM
Thanks for your replies, this is all helping me to understand.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on November 29, 2012, 02:09:05 PM
snipe

Pretty much nails those issues on the head.

Toward late game the two dedicated carries may be able to nuke each other to mostly low health, that's them unloading everything they got for that damage "cycle" against each other. Not that surprising when you have two glass cannons nuking each other. Against other members who have spent at least some gold for defense, they will need 3 or more salvos if they attack alone, all the while being the glass cannon them self.  Any team sweeping is a result of level difference or exceptionally risky strategies paying dividends in very late game.

Most ranged carries don't get CDR since it does mix well with auto attack and/or it kills their already limited mana pool.

Denying is more of a manner of for whatever reason not enabling the enemy to get those last hits. It could be you are distract them with skill shots, your pokes pushes them away, the threat of a gank keeping them distracted, etc. It's not as hard a counter as in DotA, but it is still possible, and very much a responsibility of the support to distract the enemy carry however possible early game.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on November 29, 2012, 03:00:36 PM
I can do something like pack all the replays I have of me playing ashe and send them, but I dont really have the time to remember exactly where I could highlight each of them. I tend to prefer trist anyway >_>
http://www.leaguereplays.com/summoners/NA/Lancefighter/
that link should have each replay i decide to upload, and some that other players have uploaded. Honestly, anything that happens over 10 minutes seems fairly outside of your scope though - you seem to be most worried about playing like a kitten all laning long... (one or two of those I probably get ganked and lose really hard early game though. Its bound to happen.)

Pretty much everyone here has brought up good points, and I really am probably not going to be able to acknowledge them all..
But you go philo on amumu. He needs the mana regen, and later the cdr of shurelias. He doesnt need the 3s burst of speed though.. because you max your stun as soon as possible. He has a really good stun/gapcloser on a REALLY short cd. Build around that. Randiuns is an ok item, but really its inferior to frozen heart on amumu. (my typical build is philo-hog-boots1-kindle-glacial, upgrading whenever. Typically merc treads, but you dont really need tons of mr on amumu, except in certain cases, which I could outline but effort)

Like people have said though - ashe's ult is THE BEST initiation in the game. 100% safe, fairly reliable at medium ranges, and allows permastun to death. Her strength in lane(and teamfights) is particularly that she can control enemy movements more than deal tons of damage - An arrow into any sort of followup by a jungler is an instant kill and dragon.

I think weve moved however to more general discussion on balance, which I believe can actually be summed up in a very simple way - Spells.

In league, a level 1 spell has VERY little impact. Dont get me wrong, there are some spells (taric's dazzle, janna nado, etc) that have impact.. but these are very rare comparatively. This is intentionally so - youre going to be buying 'ap', and your spell later in the game will deal tons of damage. This means a few things, in my opinion.

1: CASTERS become CARRIES. This is not a good thing. When vlad becomes a carry, he suddenly deals tons of aoe damage, gets tons of healing, and overall is difficult to kill. This extends to a lot of casters - Morgana, Ahri, Swain, Xerath. All of them deal massive amounts of aoe damage that scales. And they all have hard cc. For a ranged dps.. this isnt *as* big of a deal, with the exception of mobilty/range, which most of them often have. (ahri/xerath is a HUGE example of this. Really annoying to play against as a real carry )
The problem is when you move to melee heros..

2: MELEE HEROS MUST BUILD DEFENSE. This is.. well.. ok? The problem is that despite requiring a melee hero to also build defensively, riot throws tons of free stats on them. Base hp, armor, mr, and even ad are all inflated.  They must be able to tank all of a casters damage before they kill the caster.. Why? I dont really know. This is further extended by 3.

2a. MAGIC IMMUNITY/DAMAGEBLOCK. Damage block is a areally good way for melee heros to lane against ranged heros. A poor mans shield provides 1 armor(6 league armor), and blocks 20 damage from each autoattack. (also incredibly cheap). Magic immunity is a very, very important thing. For 10 seconds, I can be immune to all magic damage, and be free to attack stuff. This means that my job, as a ganker, I CAN ACTUALLY KILL PEOPLE IN TEAMFIGHTS, without dieing to your ap carry's aoe damage. I hate ap carries. So much.

3: Resistance is cheap. Health is cheap. I can buy about 200 hp for like 500 gold. I can buy 18% more hp as ehp for 300g.. or 45% for 700g. I can easily walk into top lane with over 50% resistance to physical damage. What the hell? This devalues physical damage early game.. encouraging magic damage, But wait - Magic damage scales? Should it be both powerful early and later? No. it really shouldnt. Also! Just today, you can buy items like HEXDRINKER! Because who doesnt love free shields and stats. But..

4: Physical damage spells (THAT SCALE. WHY). Does graves need a 100 physical damage nuke at level 1? Not really. How about a 340(+1.36 bonus ad) nuke? NEVER. NEVER does graves need this. Carries arent supposed to have nukes like this. Theyre supposed to be CARRIES. they autoattack. Like.. Seriously.

I could probably rant more about stupid stuff, but I've gone off topic so far right now. I think overall what I am saying is that I really dont like that spells scale. Casters should have their place in the early game, and Laguna blade should rightfully instantly kill people if used at the right time. On the other hand, I really dont feel that Requiem should ever deal as much damage as it does in the lategame. Sure, karthus can pretend he is necrolyte with his lots of aoe damage.. but the amount he scales comparatively is simply uncalled for.

And as a final note, remember that ashe is a carry you really need to be forcing opportunities with. She isnt going to win in the lategame without a proper initiation.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on November 29, 2012, 04:58:15 PM
Heh, interesting, caster scaling is my favorite thing about LoL.  I'm nearly positive I wouldn't have player it for over 2 years if that wasn't in the game.  It is one of the reasons I dislike DOTA.  Without abilities scaling, you can even out a champs power level across the early/mid/late game.

On defenses, Season 3 is reducing defensive items, specifically early game.  In addition, penetration is going to stack %-reduction before subtractive reduction, which will make it much easier to pierce insanely high end-game defenses.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on November 29, 2012, 05:29:47 PM
I would likely agree.. And counter with - But casters in dota build USEFUL items. Like sheepsticks. Forcestaffs. Cyclone..sticks. Necrobooks. Items that give some sort of utility - After all, a lategame caster's job in dota is to DEFEND THE CARRY.

As opposed to league, where you have 2+ 'carries' on a team.. I dunno. I just dont like it.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on November 29, 2012, 05:32:11 PM
I would likely agree.. And counter with - But casters in dota build USEFUL items. Like sheepsticks. Forcestaffs. Cyclone..sticks. Necrobooks. Items that give some sort of utility - After all, a lategame caster's job in dota is to DEFEND THE CARRY.

As opposed to league, where you have 2+ 'carries' on a team.. I dunno. I just dont like it.

Very many caster items give items that buff your team or negate the enemy.

Spell vamp, enemy attack speed, enemy magic resistance are three caster items that all support the team. Depending on team comp, they also can carry the item that gives resistances for the team if needed.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on November 29, 2012, 06:31:19 PM
I'm afraid I agree with Lancefighter here.

Spell mechanics in DotA give casters (Intelligence heroes generally) a much more defined role than AP heroes have in League.  Specifically, they dominate the early game, are still powerful in the mid-game, and taper off in the late game.

In fact, in DotA a full team of 5 casters could win the game if you finish it early enough.  By pushing with your powerful early-game advantage, you can destroy your opponent before they ever gain enough strength to resist you.

And before you go contesting whether or not it's possible to win a DotA game without carries, take a look at these statistics: http://tinyurl.com/8trarks

Quote
The most successful number of carries on a team wasn’t one. It wasn’t two, or even five. It was zero. A team with no carries on it at all tended to win 14.1% more than average.
That really defeats the notion coming from inexperienced players that carries in DotA 2 are overpowered I think.

This is the kind of emergent gameplay I was talking about that DotA has and that League of Legends doesn't.  By giving casters a very definitive role of early-game dominance and late-game support, it makes the gameplay much more unique and shifting.  It also makes the early-game a lot more exciting, where LoL early-game is often (but not always) a lot of farming with a couple ganks every now and then, and then late-game is all about team fights.

It's just personal, of course, but I much prefer each hero having an extremely defined role.  I don't like how AP muddles all the roles together.  The only real difference between AD and AP in my experience is that AD usually does it's damage consistently, where AP does it in short bursts.  That's a slight difference, but certainly nowhere near as meaningful as the difference between casters and carries in DotA.

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on November 29, 2012, 08:32:52 PM
Most casters in DOTA would be Support in LoL then.  That is the role you are describing.  When the damage of my abilities isn't relevant and I'm not a tank, I'm support.  Effectively what Ability Power items do is split casters into Support and Burst.  Support casters don't benefit enough from Ability Power to warrant buying it.  Burst casters have get much stronger with Ability Power and so they build that.  They need to have correspondingly less Support-like kits or they are just overpowered Support.  See Morgana was/is right on the edge of this line.

The catch is Auto Attacks scale much harder than Ability Power because of Critical Hits and lack of cooldowns.  This is something Casters can't overcome.  So at the end of the day, between a fully decked Caster and Ranged Carry, the Ranged Carry has a ton more damage potential but the Caster generally wins 1v1 due to burst and the Ranged Carry not really building defense.  So, you shut down the enemy Caster to let your Ranged Carry win the day.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on November 29, 2012, 09:37:25 PM
I wrote osme stupidly long reply about casters in dota being op, and then I decided to delete it all, because it boils down to one thing - Casters in dota have UTILITY through ITEM OPTIONS.

Lets look at a caster in league, for example - You build a deathcap. You build a void staff. You maybe build a rylais, you maybe build a dfg.. Neither of those really do anything tbh.

In dota, a caster can build many items. There is an entire shop page for casters. Because I'm lazy, ill copy and paste:
 Force Staff (2350)    Necronomicon (2700)    Eul's Scepter of Divinity (2700)    Dagon (2805)
 Veil of Discord (2650)    Rod of Atos (3100)    Aghanim's Scepter (4200)    Orchid Malevolence (4125)
 Refresher Orb (5300)    Scythe of Vyse (5675)

Each of those is fairly useful on its own - push a hero. Get some minions with awesome abilities. Cyclone someone. Nuke someone. Buff all magic damage in an aoe. Slow someone. Make your ult better. Silence someone. Refresh all of your skills/item. Hex someone. And these arent even ALL of the items a caster could build.. Mek, pipe, shivas also really good.

What do casters in league have for utility? Rylais. ZHonyas. Dfg. Honorable mention to morellos evil tome.  (slow, short invuln, nuke, and healing debuff respectively) Sure, cdr blahblah. Meh.

And then i wrote a slightly not as long reply about items. Meh, ill keep it.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on November 29, 2012, 10:11:19 PM
I don't think casters in DotA are OP, but I will say this:

They are the backbone of any team. 

You can win without Strength Heroes (initiators/tanks).  You can win without Agility Heroes (carries).  You can't win without Intelligence Heroes (casters/support).

It would be like trying to win a war without infantry.  Infantry are the backbone of any army. 

The difference between DotA and League in that regard is that in DotA, your casters alone can decide the game.  In other words, the caster's role is just as, or more important than the carry's, it just shines at a different point in the game.

In LoL, AP Casters and AD Carries may both be just as useful lategame, but that's why the earlygame of League is often so boring and stagnant.  I think it's much more exciting to have a role that excels at every point of the game, so that the action and dynamic is constantly happening.

That's just my opinion though.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on November 29, 2012, 11:59:56 PM
Thats a pretty good point - With ap 'carries' being less strong early game, they dont really want to do anything over sitting in lane farming.

As per wars without infantry - I've been seeing a lot of that in planetside. Apparently people really like getting a conga line of vanguards and rolling out.. And then sitting afk next to capture points they cant take. (only infantry can, and often they are inside buildings).

Did you get a chance to look at any of the ashe replays?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on November 30, 2012, 12:57:16 AM
I still gotta figure out this replay thing.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on November 30, 2012, 10:04:36 AM
Casters in LoL are the strongest early game.  The lose a bit of power slowly, and by end game, they are behind auto-attack carries clearly.  They can kill said auto-attack carries, but that's all they can do.  The don't have the damage to take out bruisers or tanks because a full spell cycle won't do the job and they'll die before their cooldowns come back in general (even with max CDR).

Really, the biggest issue is the jungle problem.  Casters in LoL used to roam from mid to top and bot, being a second and very powerful part of play.  In fact, a caster just sitting mid farming would lose the game against an opponent who left lane to gank the side lanes a lot.  Ganking sidelanes was THE reason casters started going mid!  But then jungle got changed*, and jungle ganks got so strong and fast that it isn't safe for casters to gank anymore.  They are forced to stay mid.  This would be one of the things they are trying to address with the S3 jungle changes.

* Jungle mobs got much easier to kill, opening up the jungle to any champion and making jungle clear times incredibly short, especially for any champion with AOE.  Jungle mobs also "store" gold so you don't lose any farm if you don't clear camps immediately.  As a result, several very nasty ganking champions could now jungle, and they aren't penalized for the time they spend ganking because the farm on the jungle mobs just piles up for them to collect later.  The only time they get hurt is if they die trying to gank.  Counter-jungling is sub-optimal because it reduces the pressure on all 3 enemy lanes and results in your jungler falling behind.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on November 30, 2012, 11:10:17 AM
Casters and carries (mostly) follow different stats for offense and defense.

Casters use AP, cdr, mana, and magic pen and are countered by magic resist.

Carries use AD, attack speed, crits, and armor pen and are countered by armor.

These items are usually very split, particularly with magic resistance and armor. They also have unique items for each resistance that counters in different ways.

Yesterday I had a game where the enemy ended up with 4 players using mostly ap. Early and mid game they dominated. However, toward late game my team started stacking magic resistance exclusively, eventually allowing us to survive their bursts and then counter attack. In contrast, my team had both a very strong carry and caster, and the other players had a mix. As a result, the enemy couldn't focus on one defense (making them miss out on the more specialized and unique defensive items) so over time the balance of power shifted.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on November 30, 2012, 11:54:45 AM
Casters in LoL are the strongest early game.  The lose a bit of power slowly, and by end game, they are behind auto-attack carries clearly.  They can kill said auto-attack carries, but that's all they can do.  The don't have the damage to take out bruisers or tanks because a full spell cycle won't do the job and they'll die before their cooldowns come back in general (even with max CDR).
Karthus would like a word with you.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on November 30, 2012, 12:02:21 PM
Casters in LoL are the strongest early game.  The lose a bit of power slowly, and by end game, they are behind auto-attack carries clearly.  They can kill said auto-attack carries, but that's all they can do.  The don't have the damage to take out bruisers or tanks because a full spell cycle won't do the job and they'll die before their cooldowns come back in general (even with max CDR).
Karthus would like a word with you.
This is Karthus we're talking about; if he wanted a word with you it would have already been had, no matter where you were or what you were doing.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on November 30, 2012, 12:56:40 PM
Casters in LoL are the strongest early game.  The lose a bit of power slowly, and by end game, they are behind auto-attack carries clearly.  They can kill said auto-attack carries, but that's all they can do.  The don't have the damage to take out bruisers or tanks because a full spell cycle won't do the job and they'll die before their cooldowns come back in general (even with max CDR).
Karthus would like a word with you.
Karthus is a bit backwards.  He doesn't wreck carries, they wreck him, but then he dies and he wins anyway.  I'd argue he's too strong at the moment, especially in solo queue.  Specifically his ult scaling.  In teams he just needs to get so close, and with drafting the enemy team has a lot of options for dealing with him (besides just banning him).  Trist and Lee Sin basically rain all over his parade, both able to punt him out of range.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on November 30, 2012, 03:25:56 PM
Well, its more that karthus (and to a very similar extent, cassio) scale INCREDIBLY well into the lategame.

And yeah, the whole dieing -> ult thing is pretty annoying. Dota's shadowfiend buff was actually really nice in that regard, and actually is pretty hilarious in a dive or something
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on November 30, 2012, 03:56:29 PM
Karthus, Cass, and Ryze are the three Casters that are closer to carriers.  They are a lot more sustained DPS than burst, although Requiem is pretty insane burst, so it isn't a perfect description.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on November 30, 2012, 04:10:47 PM
Yes.. cassi pressing r isnt very much burst at all :p

Swain/vlad/ahri are a lot of delayed burst as well.. Granted they hit their upper limit after a few seconds. Ryze's is a bit higher because he tends to go qwqeqrqwqeq or so.

Anyway, I think the point of this is that mages still scale incredibly well into the lategame, and do nothing but deal damage. I dont really like that.
edit, i probably should point out at some time in this thread that I am an ad carry main. So part of this is indeed the whole 'rock is fine, nerf scissors'-paper thing going on.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on December 01, 2012, 10:44:35 AM
Quote
edit, i probably should point out at some time in this thread that I am an ad carry main. So part of this is indeed the whole 'rock is fine, nerf scissors'-paper thing going on.
I don't know, maybe not.

I'm typically a caster player in DotA (or I have been for most of my "career"), and I like how they dominate the early and mid-game. 

Think about it:  If you shut the enemy team down hard enough early game, it never makes it to late-game.  You have the power, as a player, to direct the flow of the game from the very beginning.  A carry can only do well assuming it makes it to late-game, and you're completely relying on your supports and casters in DotA for it to get there.  That's why I said before, Int heroes in DotA are the most valuable asset on any given team, contrary to popular belief.  The carry in DotA is kind of like the singer in a band; everyone gives him all the credit because he's the center of attention, but chances are he would never have gotten there without his team.

Because AP and AD are both powerful late-game, there's really not a role (that I've seen used) that excels early game; at least well enough to end it before the carries can get farmed.  In LoL, you're pretty much forced to go into late-game in most competitive matches, which means that, like you said, it all revolves around your carries (AP or AD) and how much damage they can do.  In other words, as an AD Carry in LoL, it's much less interesting and challenging (in my experience) than in DotA, because in the end everyone is going to be as powerful as you anyway; which isn't the case with DotA.  It's also why, in my opinion, LoL matches are often so much slower than DotA matches.  You're trudging through the early and mid game, waiting for your carries to get farmed.

I was watching some tournament play yesterday for League and DotA.  I think the League Tournament was the IPL5 and the DotA tournament was WCG 2012.  Anyway, the League game I watched ended with the total killscore being about half the game's duration (so it was about 22 kills at around 40 minutes).  The game was probably over long before that.

The DotA 2 game had about double the kills of the game's duration (about 60 kills at 30 minutes).  Sure, it's anecdotal, but this is the kind of trend I usually see when I watch competitive play for either game.  I personally think a big reason is because DotA has roles of heroes that are powerful at all stages of the game, and can win at all stages of the game, where most of League's power is skewed towards the end-game.

Neither of these things are good or bad per se.  Some people like a slower paced game.

I used to play Veigar a lot, and I found that his ability to farm AP all game, then crunch people at the end was a lot of fun.  Even though he didn't fit into the traditional "DotA" role of what a caster should do, he was different than the typical LoL caster in that getting farmed meant having good positioning, getting lots of last hits, and he had a really interesting AoE stun field that could really turn the tide of fights.  Even though he still wasn't very good early game, he had a unique caster playstyle that was about more than just doing damage, damage, damage. 

Ironically, around the time when bruisers started becoming popular (which was a couple years ago at least), he just fell out of favor, and has never really returned.  The problem is that there's really only 1 AP Carry, and the support player doesn't have to build AP (think Taric or Leona).  Even the AP Carry, realizing he's facing a Veigar, can do all kinds of things to counter him.  He can go a tanky AP build like Rod of Ages (or something similar).  He can Banshee Veil.  He can get Zhonya's and just "dodge" your entire combo.

Nuanced casters like Veigar have no place in the game.  What is Veigar going to do against a bruiser?  Answer:  Nothing (unless you count dying).  He's Tier 4 in Elementz Tier List for good reason.  The best casters are just the AP equivalent to carries.

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on December 01, 2012, 11:16:02 AM
CCs are much stronger in DOTA, which is a large part of why their kill scores are so much larger.  When I watch a DOTA match, it is like every ability single ability has some form of CC, and a lot of times the numbers are massive.  High slow%, long duration stuns, massive AOE, and huge ranges.  That's ok because all the abilities are that way.  But yeah, it does make for much more lethal games.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on December 01, 2012, 11:19:53 AM
Speaking of that, does anybody get Cleanse in LoL anymore? I was wondering whether I should take that sometimes.

It seems like a Flash an ability everybody gets.  What do you think about removing Flash from the game entirely?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on December 01, 2012, 12:31:28 PM
Removing Flash comes up a lot on the board.  The main problem is several champs are pretty dependent on it.  But another issue is Flash encourages lane aggression because you have an escape.  Things are a lot more passive without it.  So they've considered removing it main times, and even giving it the blink dagger treatment so it is for offense only, but its got a really solid upside to go with its downside.  So what they are trying to do for S3 is buff all the other Summoner spells so there is more compelling reasons to take them.  We'll see how it goes.  Barrier is making an appearance, and Heal getting tweaked.  We'll have to see if they can make the underused spells solid enough picks.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on December 01, 2012, 12:35:46 PM
Quote
Removing Flash comes up a lot on the board.  The main problem is several champs are pretty dependent on it.
Then rebalance those champions right?  I mean there's major balance patches all the time. 

Quote
But another issue is Flash encourages lane aggression because you have an escape.
But the person you're chasing has an escape as well doesn't he (in Flash)?  It seems to me like the defensive aspect cancels out the offensive aspect, unless I'm missing something.

Quote
Things are a lot more passive without it.
Oh, have they tried removing it in the beta builds or something? I hadn't heard anything about that.

Quote
Barrier is making an appearance, and Heal getting tweaked.  We'll have to see if they can make the underused spells solid enough picks.
I'm interested to see.  I'm also interested to see how the armor stacking nerf goes.  I think if they fix those two things (bruisers and OP flash), I might consider playing again.  We'll see.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on December 01, 2012, 12:52:30 PM
Veigar still has absolutely the best stun in the game, and some really strong zone control merely by existing. The problem is that if you can apply any sort of cc to him, he dies. Also, the recent dfg nerfs hit him VERY hard. I used to really like him tbh, but I feel like lately he doesnt burst hard enough.

I tend to bring cleanse in a few specific situations - against initative cc that i can never afford to get hit by - Some combination of amumu/ashe/leona/sej - longish range hard stuns that will get me killed before the duration ends. However, I tend to avoid cleanse on certan carries because other summonerspells are better - not having ignite on trist means you dont have stupid amounts of burst at level 6. Ghost on ashe is really strong in the early game, etc.

I still tend to build qss a fair deal against these abilities or other debuffs while playing trist or ashe, because qss is a really good item.

as for flash - Flash was designed to replace blink dagger/forcestaff/other mobility items. Is it suitable to remove it? Not really. I would probably like to see it more like forcestaff - go really fast in that direction for a short period. this just gives people a little bit more time to react to something like flash galio or something.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on December 01, 2012, 12:58:48 PM
For flash, try to imagine this.

With no flash, if a low health player runs and you can't kill before they leave their range, you are usually out of luck, so you don't attempt to pursue. With flash, you get interactions where the choice "do I need to use flash to escape / pursue" which in general is a very snap decision that can mean the difference of victory or defeat, in part because flash has such a long cool down you can't use it every time you may need it.

Flash forces snap decisions which tend to result more in mistakes (for both runner and pursuers). High level play of course will make less mistakes, but it still does force them.

Although, for the record, I do think spells should be modified. Or, more to the point, the other spells should be buffed so they make as much of an impact (cleanse gives a short cc immunity, maybe combine heal with clarity, ignite prevents healing, ghost immune to slowing effects, etc)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on December 01, 2012, 01:55:07 PM
They've removed flash on their internal server for testing play without it at least twice.  Both times the general feel was the game wasn't just wasn't as fun, and that the problems it created were greater than the problems Flash causes.  Flash used to go further and have a shorter cooldown, so they've nerfed it at least 2-3 times so far.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on December 01, 2012, 02:25:15 PM
Yes- somewhat important to note that flash in higher level play seems to be more aggressive. At least, i think so. I havent actually watched higher level league stuff in a very long time
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on December 01, 2012, 02:44:23 PM
Yes- somewhat important to note that flash in higher level play seems to be more aggressive. At least, i think so. I havent actually watched higher level league stuff in a very long time
Dunno, I watch a bit of higher level League from time to time.  I still don't understand the explanation that Flash is an offense-oriented spell, or increases the pace of the game.  Not to say that the claim isn't true, I just don't understand it.

In DotA for example, that might make sense, considering that tower diving is rather easy.  Towers do quite a bit of damage early on, but compared to League towers, they're like pea shooters.  When someone Flashes back into their tower in League, it's quite dangerous to Flash after them for obvious reasons. 

Maybe they've removed Flash from the test client, but have they replaced it with an item that gives the ability instead?  I think that might be a good idea at least, whether or not it actually works out is a different story.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on December 01, 2012, 03:11:52 PM
Well, lets put it this way - if I can flash-stun someone with taric, he wont have a chance to react, often meaning I can follow up with my full combo (and my lane partners) before the stun is over. That often will be a kill.

If I stun first, then he other guy easily has time to use a mobility spell, walk away, or flash if he needs to.

Similarly, flash is often used as a gap closer to less fortunate janglers - udyr can flash-bearstance people to submission, for instance. Again, an instant stun that leaves little time to be reacted to. The only response to this is often to flash away yourself, if you have the reaction time. (because likely chaincc from lane people)

Or perhaps someone like ryze - he has an instant cast root with no projecitle... but hes not exactly the fastest of heros. If you walk up to someone, they can often walk away. If you flash, youre very likely going to get your cc off before they can do something.

In professional play it seems that the very small windows of reaction are very important. For instance, using flash the other way.. While watching our lord TreeEskimo stream, he once commented that there is no reason to ever get hit by a malphite ult in competitive play. This was really interesting to me, as malph is typically considered one of the better initiators in the game. His reasoning was that malphs ult travel time is more than ample to flash away if you are prepared for it, which seems like a really good point. On the other hand, a malph flashing towards you and point blank ulting leaves almost no actual time to respond..

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on December 01, 2012, 03:49:41 PM
Yes- somewhat important to note that flash in higher level play seems to be more aggressive. At least, i think so. I havent actually watched higher level league stuff in a very long time
Dunno, I watch a bit of higher level League from time to time.  I still don't understand the explanation that Flash is an offense-oriented spell, or increases the pace of the game.  Not to say that the claim isn't true, I just don't understand it.


Two things I think of.

1) Since players are not bots, there will always be a delay from the offense to defense flash. This window may be small, but it is enough that a flash + cc can be used as an initiate to kill a weakened player.

2) Since flash is not always up, when lanning the side whose flashes are on cooldown must be passive, since a flashing gank will result in defeat, and a flash from the enemy lanners if they have any advantage will also result in defeat. This leads to them being passive, allowing greater zoning and an overall advantage to the non-flashed side. When both sides have flash however, the flash provides a huge distance closer for the runner to get to their tower, meaning that they won't die but will be pushed back.

In the case of ganks, the gankee, if they have wards up, can easily move away once the ganker is seen if there is no flash whatsoever, but if both have flash, the ganker can still position themselves to nuke and or cc the enemy champion, meaning the offense still has an advantage.


Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on December 04, 2012, 04:27:57 PM
Speaking of overly-defensive gameplay and mechanics which promote that, I just watched the first game of The Defense 3 Dota 2 Tournament that started today and holllyyyyyyyy s***.

It was a high octane, action-packed game.  Over 50 kills by 20 minutes.  Dire took a very aggressive, gank-heavy team and made the best of it.  Night Stalker, who is relatively weak during the day, but becomes an unholy terror during the night.  Bounty Hunter, who can go invisible for long periods of time, track you so that you can't hide or escape, then kill you when you least expect it.  And most importantly, Wisp, with TF's old map-wide teleport ability, except that he can take an ally with him for extra fun :P

http://www.the-defense.com/en/vods/2665-the-defense-3-pulse-vs-iccup

Watch it if you dare ;p
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on December 04, 2012, 05:45:53 PM
Oh yes, pulse i think it was made great use of wisp's relocate that game, I'm glad I actually stayed and watched it (cant remember if it was that game or the game before that had technical issues for like 10 minutes )
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on December 04, 2012, 06:26:43 PM
That was the first game, and it had some technical issues (which actually resulted in a really funny scenario; in the remake they had to "recreate" the 'first blood' of the first game, which basically resulted in 1 player offering himself up as a sacrifice to the other team at the 0 minute mark).
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on December 04, 2012, 10:08:03 PM
Yeah. I cant help but think 'what if this was a league event'

All of the league events I've seen tend to involve a 'game cannot be restarted after fb' rule - So in this case, itd be very likely that the other team wouldve had to forfeit :\

Then again, I cant say I've actually seen a scenario where a league player was disconnected and couldnt reconnect.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on December 04, 2012, 11:28:27 PM
I don't think it was a case of the player being unable to reconnect.  If I understand it right, the commentators were having trouble communicating (the game has a built-in livestream feed that can be accessed through the client); they restarted the game because of issues on the "entertainment end", not the gameplay end.  That was my understanding anyway.  They're still working out all the bugs with that.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on December 05, 2012, 12:06:39 AM
Yeah, they say in the beginning that its a problem with connections.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on December 06, 2012, 11:06:44 PM
I've got a question.

The people in this thread say that "carries" can't burst people down as fast in League as they can in DotA, but after playing several games with Rengar, it's to still believe that's the case.

I'm watching Rengar, even in close games, kill people within literally about 1 second.  By the time he can click all of his skills (after he ults), they are dead.  Even tanks he tears right though almost instantly.  No hero in DotA kills people this fast.

Can somebody explain?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on December 06, 2012, 11:20:46 PM
Yeah. Rengar isnt a carry. Rengar is a physical assassin.

I really despite physical burst damage that isnt actually autoattacks.

To put things in perspective - I finished a game of dota earlier today with a rapier on PA. I was critting for 2.5k. I feel compelled to mention we were LOSING that game until that point. Sure, rengar can do bursty things.. Old akali used to be incredibly bursty (before they nerfed all of her items, and her passive, among other things). Old casters like annie can burst very well.

But none of that will compare to a PA with battlefury critting an entire team for 2.5k.

Except a kunnka, but hes hilariously more hit or miss.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that rengar is retarded and riot shouldve never made him. He is one of the few heros that scales incredibly well off of kills, because of his necklace. He has really good ratios on his skills, and ad ratios. I hate ad ratios. But 'carries', even in league, tend to not really have burst. (or if they do, its typically poorly represented as burst)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on December 07, 2012, 10:21:42 AM
The test realm patch notes (http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/22597-unoffical-pbe-patch-notes-for-12-7-2012) for LoL show some notable nerfs for Rengar.  His Battle Shout is losing 22% of its damage at Rank 5, and more brutal (for him) is his ult no longer instantly stealths him!  It takes 1.25 seconds for him to stealth when he activates it, and if he takes damage, that pushes back the stealthing coutdown, to a cap of 3 seconds to become stealthed.

Note these aren't final patch notes, so they could change.  But apparently they are looking at him.

Carries: Basically, you need to do damage mainly with your auto-attacks, and your abilities should support that.  Auto-attacks scale with crit, abilities do not.  This makes auto-attacks the top damage dealer in end-game, not to mention they are free.  So carries kill you with auto-attacks, even they might have some hard hitting abilities (Graves).  Assassins blow you up with their abilities.  Physical Assassins stack AD to do this, so they also often have pretty strong auto-attacks, but you'll notice they rarely build much crit or attack speed and so their auto-attacks never get quite as strong as a true  carry.  Also, Carriers tend to have abilities that give them attack speed, while Physical Assassins don't (with some exceptions, like Rengar has attack speed, and Ashe doesn't).

Magic Assassins (like LeBlanc) are slightly weaker, theoretically, than Physical Assassins because they don't have strong auto-attacks to supplement their damage.  However, because they do magic damage, the enemy needs MR and MR doesn't help against carries.  So Physical Assassins risk letting the enemy stack Armor more safely, while Magic Assassins force a defensive itemization split but don't have any fallback if their spells don't cut it.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on December 31, 2012, 06:47:31 PM
Speaking of pub stompers, has anybody here actually tried Darius in normal?

Holy crap.

After facing him twice in top lane with a melee hero (blind pick), I realized that there was absolutely no way I could beat him.  If I even got anywhere near the creep I was destroyed.

I eventually got so frustrated I just bought him; I haven't lost a game since.

If you think Akali is a bad pubstomper, I'm curious about what you think about him.  I'm sure he's fine in draft pick where you can counter him at top with a teemo, a kayle, or a kennen, but if in blind pick, where most tops are melee, they might as well just leave the lane because there is absolutely nothing they can do.  They can't even get anywhere near the creep.

However, his usefulness doesn't even end in the laning phase.  Even in ganks and teamfights he has a lot to offer.  He basically has Axe's ult from DotA, except 100 times better.  It doesn't have a threshold before it does damage, and if you kill someone with it, which is super easy, it is instantly taken off cooldown (WTF?!).

He has a powerful aoe swipe, a painful movespeed and attack speed debuff with a low cooldown, and a nice initiation/pull skill to boot.

You want to talk about pub stompers.  Akali has nothing on this guy.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on December 31, 2012, 07:21:56 PM
Darius is broken.

I have never seen a reasonable argument against this.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on December 31, 2012, 07:38:01 PM
I don't think he would be broken in draft pick. 

He's easily kited, he has no escapes or blinks (like most of the cast), and if you shut him down early he has a hard time recovering. 

However, in blind pick, against an uncoordinated team, he's an absolute monster.  He just snowballs out of control and there's really nothing you can do about it.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on December 31, 2012, 07:48:47 PM
I don't think he would be broken in draft pick. 

He's easily kited, he has no escapes or blinks (like most of the cast), and if you shut him down early he has a hard time recovering. 

However, in blind pick, against an uncoordinated team, he's an absolute monster.  He just snowballs out of control and there's really nothing you can do about it.

True damage + a refresh on an ultimate means even an underleveled darius is still a monster. So not only can he snowball quickly, even when underleveled he can just go tank and start slamming.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on December 31, 2012, 11:03:40 PM
I don't think he would be broken in draft pick. 

He's easily kited, he has no escapes or blinks (like most of the cast), and if you shut him down early he has a hard time recovering. 

However, in blind pick, against an uncoordinated team, he's an absolute monster.  He just snowballs out of control and there's really nothing you can do about it.

True damage + a refresh on an ultimate means even an underleveled darius is still a monster. So not only can he snowball quickly, even when underleveled he can just go tank and start slamming.
Yeah I just get Black Cleaver then build tank.  Not only am I really hard to kill, but I still do insane amounts of damage.  Hero is so crazy in pubs.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on January 01, 2013, 03:42:49 AM
I dunno. League's design .. is kinda stupid at the moment. I am having difficulty understanding why the design team went in the direction they did.

And yeah - I only play draft normals, and my team still cant deal with a darius. Granted, we have no real dedicated top lane player (it used to be me until i got fed up with jungle ganks at level 1), but hes sitll far too difficult to counter in lane.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on January 01, 2013, 08:56:05 AM
Currently, top lane has 4 viable camps (http://i.imgur.com/NHEWP.jpg?1).  Darius is one of them.  Since at present your top should only be 1 of 4 champs, Darius isn't pub stomping solo queue in my experience.  He's got a 1 in 4 chance of getting countered, a 1 in 4 of countering, and 2 in 4 that things are a bit more up in the air.

That said, I hate top lane in the current meta.  I wish two mages was viable, but bruisers are so insanely strong that taking a second mage just isn't worth it.  I also hate bruisers because that's all Twisted Treeline consists of.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on January 01, 2013, 09:32:35 AM
I do feel like bruisers simply dish out too much damage even if they choose to go tank sometimes.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 01, 2013, 01:15:38 PM
I find that bruisers are much more fun and much less risky than other characters.  It's a much safer choice.

That's not to say that glass cannon carries can't be, and aren't just as powerful, it's just that they're extremely situational.

My friend who keeps up with competitive LoL tells me that Twisted Fate is the best champion in the game right now.  Some player on some professional team has apparently never lost with him.

And of course, I believe him.  Partly because he has no reason to lie, and partly because, on a perfectly coordinated team, TF would be a nightmare to deal with.  That's because his team is always protecting him, setting up situations for him to arrive, peeling off damage dealers, healing him, and whatever else is required to make a squishy glass cannon viable.

If you BREATHE on TF, he dies; that's all there is to it.  Playing TF well is not just a personal endeavor, but a team endeavor, and if you do it right, it is absolutely devastating.

However, you can't expect that kind of teamplay and coordination in a pub; even a high-level pub.  There's no voice chat for one thing, and you've probably never even played with all (or even some) of your teammates.

This is why my favorite champions are heroes like Darius and Xin.  They simply rip apart teams without perfect coordination.  You can stack health and armor and still do tons of damage, have plenty of disables, and be ridiculously tanky.

To give another example, Kayle is one of my favorite characters.  I love her aggressive, glass-cannon style, then ult just before you die.  However, the risk just doesn't pay off in pubs.  Darius or Irelia are much safer tops to choose than Kayle, even if I do like playing her.

What this all boils down in my opinion, is not that LoL is poorly balanced, but simply balanced for competitive play; as it should be.  However, that does leave a massive problem for mid-to-high level normal players (especially blind pick), who simply want to pick whatever heroes they want to pick, and not worry about losing because they didn't take the "safe" choice.

This balance issue, if you want to call it that, is a result of something I've been harking on from the very beginning.  LoL balances its characters in a very "samey" way.  That is, many characters have only slight differences with each other, and have pretty much the exact same role.  Therefore, only one character with that role will always ultimately become the safest pick for that position, and therefore be the best in pub games.

DotA, who balances its characters by making each one drastically different, doesn't have this problem nearly as much.  There are safer picks, and more situational picks, but ironically the situational picks work much better in pubs than they do in competitive games, which is the polar opposite of League, where situational picks excel in competitive games. 
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 01, 2013, 01:59:13 PM
Quote
Currently, top lane has 4 viable camps.  Darius is one of them.  Since at present your top should only be 1 of 4 champs, Darius isn't pub stomping solo queue in my experience.  He's got a 1 in 4 chance of getting countered, a 1 in 4 of countering, and 2 in 4 that things are a bit more up in the air.
You're assuming that people in solo queue normal are going to pick 1 of those 4 heroes, out of a pool of what looks to be about 70.  Most of the time, they won't pick one of those heroes, and Darius WILL have the advantage regardless.

Secondly, you shouldn't be FORCED to pick a hero in normal blind pick in order to win; the whole point of blind pick is picking whoever you want and having fun.  It's not fun when you're forced into a small pool of champions, in the hopes that you get the right counters for the right situation, based almost entirely off chance.

Thirdly, I don't see how Jax counters Darius.  If anything, it's an even matchup.  Jax can jump onto Darius, autoattack him, and stun him, but as soon as he tries to run away once his combo has been exhausted, Darius can simply pull him back in and kill him before the stun cooldown is even up again (I think it's 18 seconds at level).  If you simply walk up to Darius and attempt to do your combo, then save your leap to escape, you might get away with it, but in that situation, all Darius has to do is walk away from you, Q, and take a 1/4th of your health away because you got too close.

In other words, at best its an even matchup, it's certainly not a hard counter like Darius is to Irelia.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on January 01, 2013, 03:51:10 PM
Quote
Currently, top lane has 4 viable camps.  Darius is one of them.  Since at present your top should only be 1 of 4 champs, Darius isn't pub stomping solo queue in my experience.  He's got a 1 in 4 chance of getting countered, a 1 in 4 of countering, and 2 in 4 that things are a bit more up in the air.
You're assuming that people in solo queue normal are going to pick 1 of those 4 heroes, out of a pool of what looks to be about 70.  Most of the time, they won't pick one of those heroes, and Darius WILL have the advantage regardless.

Secondly, you shouldn't be FORCED to pick a hero in normal blind pick in order to win; the whole point of blind pick is picking whoever you want and having fun.  It's not fun when you're forced into a small pool of champions, in the hopes that you get the right counters for the right situation, based almost entirely off chance.

Thirdly, I don't see how Jax counters Darius.  If anything, it's an even matchup.  Jax can jump onto Darius, autoattack him, and stun him, but as soon as he tries to run away once his combo has been exhausted, Darius can simply pull him back in and kill him before the stun cooldown is even up again (I think it's 18 seconds at level).  If you simply walk up to Darius and attempt to do your combo, then save your leap to escape, you might get away with it, but in that situation, all Darius has to do is walk away from you, Q, and take a 1/4th of your health away because you got too close.

In other words, at best its an even matchup, it's certainly not a hard counter like Darius is to Irelia.
Non-ranked games can be casual, so while I do see some variety in top lane, I see the 4 core top lane champs a ton.  As in, it is unusually to see either side be something other than the four.  And I agree, you shouldn't be forced to pick from those 4 champs.  It's a bruiser issue that I hope they resolve.  I honestly still think Black Cleaver is too strong, but we'll see.

Jax counters Darius by killing him.  He doesn't need to run away, and Darius has no escapes.  Then consider that Jax can escape a gank with his leap, while Darius must burn Flash.  Make no mistake, if Jax stacks Relentless Assault and Leap Strikes Darius, Darius will die unless he Flashes.  At 6 it isn't even fair anymore.  Guillotine gets hurt by Jax's ability to deny basic attacks through Counter Strike, costing 20% of its damage in general (3 stacks vs 5 stacks).  Not to mention Counter Strike stops Crippling Strike.  So Darius does less damage from Decimate since Jax Leap Strikes in, Crippling Strike does nothing, Apprehend is useless because Jax isn't running, and Guillotine isn't going to do full damage because you can't get Hemorrhage stacked fast enough.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 01, 2013, 07:35:04 PM
Well I've faced Darius as Jax in top lane before, and I got crushed.

Maybe I just wasn't doing it right, so I'll try to be more aggressive next time instead.  It just seems like it is, at best, an even matchup, which is still pretty impressive against Darius.

You say that top lanes are the only major role balance concern right now, but from what I hear the supports are pretty stagnant too.  Apparently Lulu is picked in pretty much every competitive game without fail, which wouldn't surprise me because that hero is like a support god.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on January 01, 2013, 07:51:26 PM
For Jax vs. Darius, it is all-in aggression on Jax's part.  He can't poke Darius or he loses.  It is a pretty technical match-up, so it isn't an auto-win for someone who hasn't played it.  But since you face Darius a lot, if you play a lot of Jax you'll get the hang of it.  It's all about managing Relentless Assault stacks so you Leap Strike in at full stacks.  You also don't really want to Empower your Leap Strike since Empower is an auto-attack reset.  Empowering Leap Strike actually costs you a free auto.  That's okay when you are poking, but you can't poke Darius.  Your ultimate combo is at full stacks, Leap Strike in, Empower and Counter Strike.  Let the Counter Strike time out, which means he's going to go 3 seconds were the only damage he does is his Decimate at the inner damage range (which Counter Strike will further reduce since it is AOE damage) and a single stack Hemorrhage, unless he blows Apprehend for a second stack, but then you know you can safely back out if you want.

So don't try and poke him, just cave his face in.  And don't let him get much poke on you.  You don't need to go all-in every 5 seconds, but by level 6 just going all-in 2 or 3 times.  Each time you can generally push him out of lane.  Also be ware the enemy jungle, because when you do all-in him, you don't want the enemy jungle showing up.  Ward often and early.  First trip back should include a ward.  The match-up takes practice, but it is very winnable.

Support is still shaking itself out.  I'm not convinced Lulu is the god-support, but she's doing well at the moment.  We'll have to give it some more time, since the mastery and item changes are still getting felt out by the competitive players.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: RCIX on January 02, 2013, 04:20:52 AM
Hai!
Darius is broken.

I have never seen a reasonable argument against this.
He has no realistic mobility (you don't get more than 10% MS max without being in the face of and the focus of 5 people), is highly dependent on a short range pull that is long cd till midgame at best, and has no innate defensive steroids to serve as a proper tank. Among other champions, Elise will eat him alive. In return, he's in the top three for dueling and damage output given the chance to stick. It's a very sharp and vaguely binary champion design, but he's actually one of my favorite characters because he doesn't rely on anything but just outdamaging your opponent through sheer force. Darius actually functions as an anti-bruiser, which is also the source of the QQ (omg i cant pick favorite character x who is countered by darius and faceroll, i better whine about it). Whether counters should exist is another topic entirely, and one I'd probably be happy to discuss.


In general, the state of top lane has been acknowledged to pretty much be broken for the last year at least. Bruisers have been slowly and steadily inflating in power, and in order to operate in top lane you need to have so much free stats, power levels, or mechanics on your kit that you are flat broken in any other environment. This can be seen in 2 kinds of champions: Ones like Darius, who are fine at heart but just don't punish mistakes well enough because of how much damage their spells do to compensate for top lane, or ones like Jayce, Irelia, or Rengar. These champions just do too much, and as a result they are or will be nerfed down to a degree where none of it is particularly powerful, and still dominate because their kit gives them (f.e.) physical damage, magic damage, true damage, an onhit heal, a spell with innate spellvamp, a slow, a stun, waveclear, free tenacity, and a powerful gapcloser.


I've got a question.

The people in this thread say that "carries" can't burst people down as fast in League as they can in DotA, but after playing several games with Rengar, it's to still believe that's the case.

I'm watching Rengar, even in close games, kill people within literally about 1 second.  By the time he can click all of his skills (after he ults), they are dead.  Even tanks he tears right though almost instantly.  No hero in DotA kills people this fast.

Can somebody explain?

Okay so here's the deal with Rengar right now. He's obviously been nerfed since this post, but it's still worth talking about.

Rengar is and was always designed to be a physical assassin. The issue was that he got hit by the Irelia effect, and that he was released in a clunky state so Riot couldn't see how powerful he was actually. After they fixed his passive bugs and made W instant cast, he immediately became a dominating force. Q was a ridiculous burst and scaled hideously well, W was 550 AoE damage that would give Rengar a midgame 2-button waveclear, and R was a near-instant 7 second stealth with MS boost to catch anyone thanks to a reveal.

Then, as Riot is prone to do, they saw him facewrecking and by reflex started kicking him in the shins. W damage nerf, Q CD scaling nerf, less Hp5, ult lasted less time, took longer to get into, and had longer cooldown, and even reduced the heal when they saw him doing absolutely dumb things as a tanky splitpusher (*rolls eyes*).

I did end up asking about this on the forums, and Morello did say they were looking at doing a mini rework to get him back the focused power he needs to be a good character. Because right now, his ult is gimped, his heal is gimped unless you go tanky splitpush (ew), his burst is a lane bully's wonder that falls off after like level 6, and he is simply outperformed in any role he could have by... someone.

Here are those changes though, or at least the first round:
Quote
Rengar
Savagery's bonus attack speed duration increased to  4 seconds from 3 seconds.
Battle Roar now heals for ( 40 + 20 health per level ) instead of flat 10% of health
Rengar's stealth delay lowered to 1 second from 1.25
It's definitely a start, but I'm still not convinced this will fix him. Near as I can tell, they A: want him to be a more effective "sustained assassin" (open with large burst, then abuse steroids to finish the job), and B: want him to have a meaningful heal that is independent on his stats so that he's not forced to build tank to use it properly.

Problem is that this just leaves the same mechanics, but in a slightly different place. I'd honestly like to see him lose the snare on his empowered Bola in exchange for something like increased range or another bonus that's more easy to justify giving up your primary burst combo for, and then switch battle roar to physical. From here, he's now a stable character and can be given the power he really needs to do his job.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 06, 2013, 12:08:41 PM
I'm a little baffled at Riot's lack of features after 3 years of development.

No integrated voice chat, no official replay system, no selling items back for full price (seriously Riot, this is the most annoying thing ever) because you accidentally bought it, no pause feature for disconnectors, no gold redistribution for leavers, no auto-kick for someone who has been disconnected for more than 5 minutes total...

Then you've got not completely necessary but still important mechanics like:
1. Controlling an allied hero when he disconnects.
2. Being able to trade small items like consumables or (the DotA equivalent to) oracles, instead of having to continually go back to base.
3. Integrated voice-cast so that you can listen to the casters in-game instead of over a stream.

It's not like they don't have the money or the talent (or couldn't hire the talent) necessary to add these things, maybe they just don't care that much?

Maybe Riot just devotes too much of their team to making skins instead of adding features to the game, the biggest irony to all of that though is that Valve has created a system that lets the playerbase create the "skins" for them, all they have to do is approve them and put them into the game; which means they're literally devoting only a fraction of the resources to skins, and yet the quality is overall better because they are voted on before being released, and there are so many people making them.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on January 06, 2013, 07:09:15 PM
voice chat is honestly a bad idea. In dota I rarely see it used for more than flaming or speaking languages other people dont recognize.

the rest is arguable anyway -  the whole 'leavers' gold distribution is probably ok, and other stuff related to that. Trading consumables I feel was intentional, and controlling a hero is not in their core game design as it is.

The replay and meta-game (by meta game, I'm referring to things that are part of the game but not strictly playing the game) stuff could use some work, but I feel like it would require their entire air client to be redone. Which is probably a good thing tbh.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 07, 2013, 08:45:33 AM
Quote
voice chat is honestly a bad idea. In dota I rarely see it used for more than flaming or speaking languages other people dont recognize.
That's odd.  In higher level play, it's used a lot for coordinating attacks and for giving advice.

People respond better to the human voice than they do to anonymous text over a screen.

If I say, "Hey Axe, could you get blink dagger for us, we need you to initiate" in a pleasant way, chances are he'll do that.  If I type, "Hey Jax, could you build Frozen Heart, you keep dying before you can do any damage in battle", in my experience he'll be less likely to comply.

Also, voice has the priceless advantage of not interrupting what you're doing.  When you're in the middle of a hectic battle or trying to get last hits, trying to type messages to your team just isn't going to happen.  I'm sure we all have stories of dying when we were trying to type something to our team.

In addition, people often miss typed commands.  I know I'm guilty of missing typed messages more than once because my eyes and attention are too focused on another part of the screen.

For example, if in DotA (or LoL) you type, "Back bottom, back, mid is coming" while they're involved in a tower dive, they may or may not respond because of that intense situation.  If you massively ping the map, they'll be more likely to respond, but still may not.  If you scream in voice chat, "Mid is coming bot back back back" while pinging the map, there's a 100% chance they'll hear you.

So I guess I can see arguments for or against it, but overall I like it.  At worst, Riot could add it, then just have it disabled by default like all-chat.  "Use at your own risk" or whatnot. 
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on January 07, 2013, 10:44:10 AM
Let me toss out Riot's various respones on some of these:

No integrated voice chat
Other companies do it better, so there is no reason for them to re-invent the wheel at this time.  Granted, Riot is much larger now, so someday they may reconsider.

no official replay system
They are already working on it, and the spectator client is actually also the replay client.  The only difference is to do replays they need to support the ability to watch a replay from an old verison of LoL.  So for example, they want a replay you make now to be viewable next year in Season 4.  To do this they are adding the ability to silently "back-patch" the client so it can run as any previous version of LoL to match the version of the replay.  To do that, they had to rebuild their entire patching system.  They are currently testing full-on replays in house so they should be closing in a replay client soon.  In addition, I believe I've seen mention of some players getting surveyed about if they would watch a replay of the game they just played, so hopefully replays are getting close.

no selling items back for full price because you accidentally bought it
There is some potential for abuse with global champs (Karthus).  Heimer can also abuse this because the item would buff his turrets immediately.

no pause feature for disconnectors
Makes games longer, when disconnects are largely either short or permanent.  Pauses for permanent disconnects do nothing but keep people stuck in a 4v5 longer.  Pauses for short disconnects are of fairly minimal impact because the other team doesn't get notified of the disconnect immediately, so they can't rush to take advantage.  That said, tournaments have pauses now.  I do support pauses being available in custom games.

no gold redistribution for leavers
Riot has been very focused on not putting anything in the game that might make a team benefit from someone on their own side leaving.  This is to prevent teams from harassing their teammates into leaving for some actual game benefit.

no auto-kick for someone who has been disconnected for more than 5 minutes total...
Not sure what you mean by auto-kick.  Are you talking about ending the game if it is a 4v5 for 5 minutes?

Controlling an allied hero when he disconnects.
Same reason as the gold redistribution, plus it isn't technically feasible for their game design.  You can never "unselect" your champion.

Being able to trade small items like consumables or (the DotA equivalent to) oracles, instead of having to continually go back to base.
Although they haven't talked about this issue in awhile, last time they mentioned it they indicated they wanted players to get sent back to base.  Letting someone buy and bring you out potions means harassment becomes less effective.  It is also basically gold-trading, and they didn't want to do anything else to further encourage funneling all the teams money to the carry.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on January 08, 2013, 06:26:47 PM
Yeah. Or, like me, you could have your own voice chat running elsewhere, and the game sounds (including voice, because the game doesnt want to differentiate the two properly and let them come out of different speakers). So I cant actually hear voice chat most of he time anyway, unless I really try and listen for it.

And even then, sometimes their mics are bad, they are quiet, etc. They think they are talking, but actually arent doing anything worth hearing. Then suddenly, 'missing mid' turns into '...' on my end, and when I ask why no missing call happened, I get 'noob player plz leave'.

So yeah, voice chat in IDEAL conditions is really good. Unfortunately, voice chat in dota does not approach ideal conditions.

ON the subject of higher level play, yeah, id agree. However, I feel like itd actually be incredibly trivial for league or dota players to set up a teamspeak or something stupid for the entirely of highmmrland to go on and voice chat with each other.

However.. Youknow what else doesnt interrupt what youre doing? The chat wheel. I really like it. League needs one. A system like tribes could also work (basically the same as chatwheel, but bigger and more keyboard oriented). There are ways other than voice to solve these problems. 
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 09, 2013, 12:24:30 PM
Quote
No integrated voice chat
Other companies do it better, so there is no reason for them to re-invent the wheel at this time.  Granted, Riot is much larger now, so someday they may reconsider.
This is a bad excuse.

It's like a mother or father saying there's no reason for me took cook dinner because restaurants do it better.  Well yeah, perhaps they do, but what does that have to do with it?  We need dinner.

Whether or not Ventrilo, Mumble, or Skype can host better chat servers is really a non-sequitur.  That's completely missing the point.  The point is that there is a massive number of people who solo queue in this game (possibly even the majority), and solo ranked is basically guaranteed solo queue with a partner here and there, and they have no way to communicate with their team except via chat.  I've never seen somebody post their vent or mumble info before the game.  As Lancefighter said, it would be ideal, but it doesn't happen.

So for the minority of games, where you have an entire team of 5 people you know, yes, those external voice chat programs are great; other companies do it better.  Otherwise, Riot needs to come up with a better excuse.

Quote
Yeah. Or, like me, you could have your own voice chat running elsewhere, and the game sounds (including voice, because the game doesnt want to differentiate the two properly and let them come out of different speakers). So I cant actually hear voice chat most of he time anyway, unless I really try and listen for it.
That's your own personal choice though to dampen the game's voice chat with your own chat that you aren't using/aren't using for the game.  I use Mumble and it doesn't really hinder the game's voice feature, and if it did I wouldn't use it while playing.

Quote
And even then, sometimes their mics are bad, they are quiet, etc. They think they are talking, but actually arent doing anything worth hearing. Then suddenly, 'missing mid' turns into '...' on my end, and when I ask why no missing call happened, I get 'noob player plz leave'.
Rarely in my experience are mics too quiet to hear.  You've got to think that if a person has been using the same microphone for 100 games, somebody would have told them by now they couldn't hear them.  I immediately tell someone when they are too quiet and they usually turn it up. 

Quote
So yeah, voice chat in IDEAL conditions is really good. Unfortunately, voice chat in dota does not approach ideal conditions.
Well it's not ideal when you have another program dampening it or interfering with it for sure ;p, but then, what feature is?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on January 10, 2013, 05:40:26 AM
Its odd you mention that. Mumble by default has the attenuation feature thing I absolutely hate.

Honestly, I would love to have lots more control over what sounds go where, but for some reason sound drivers arent particularly good or something. Why can I not have stuff coming out of the default speakers, and then tell something else I want it to come out of my headphone jack?

anyway, I digress. I have found that on average I can actually legitimately hear and understand, and voice is used effectively by about one half of the people who use voice that I meet. Of course, on the other side of that, at least one half of the people who use voice are not using voice properly - either because they are speaking a language I cant understand, its being used in a non-helpful manner (read: trolling or poor manners etc), or it is something i can not understand because of other reasons.

The overall problem is probably more that 80% of the players I meet dont use voice at all. Then again, I much prefer this anyway.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 11, 2013, 10:29:32 PM
After playing League nonstop for about 2 months now (ELO Rating currently 1339 after 4 ranked games), I've realized there are some massive balance concerns that Riot is extremely slow to fix.

Let's take for example Khazix.  Look, I don't mind when a hero is a little broken.  I don't even mind if a hero is hard to deal with, as long as you can deal with them (like Darius).  What bothers me is when a hero has no weakness.

What exactly is Khazix's weakness?  He can lane, he can jungle, he can gank, he can farm, he can burst, he can carry, he has an escape, an initiation, a slow, and can go invis several times, and deals bonus damage when a target is alone.

Who's design was this?  Are you kidding me?  What exactly is Khazix weakness?  How does any hero even compare to him?

Eve is equally stupid.  Luckily they're nerfing her next patch, but whoever thought it was a good idea to give someone a RANGED AOE ULTIMATE that does 25% of each hero's MAXIMUM HEALTH in magic damage, then gives her a SHIELD for that amount, on top of the rest of her great skillset (passive invisibility anybody) was just horrible at balance.  Horrible.

Let's talk about another flat out retarded mechanic in League known as true damage.  Yes true damage - can't be reduced by anything period.

Let's talk about how Irelia can build Triforce, then Randuins, Warmog's, and Zephyr's, and then jump onto the carry every team fight.  If you focus her, you're focusing a tank, but if you don't focus her, she crushes your carry.  Why?  Because it doesn't matter how much armor or health they have, she deals true damage.  So you want to Exhaust her?  HA!  You're wasting your exhaust on a bruiser for one thing, which means their ranged carry gets to go to work on your team.  Meanwhile Irelia's passive means 40% CC reduction, plus the defensive mastery which is another 15%, plus Zephyr or Mercury boots which is another 35%; sure, they stack multiplicatively, but in essence, you're using Exhaust on a hero which will probably only get about 40% of the full duration of it, when you could be using on the squishy carry which is affected by 100% of it.  Either way, you lose.

Vayne deals PERCENTAGE BASED TRUE DAMAGE...LOL.  This is balanced how?

Darius' ult is also true damage, for exactly what reason?

There is absolutely no reason you couldn't replace these 3 champions true damage skills with a buffed physical damage equivalent and still have them be viable.  The problem with League is that there is no counter to true damage, so obviously uncounterable mechanics lead to top tier heroes DERP.

Don't get me wrong, true damage exists on a few heroes in DotA, but it can be countered.  It doesn't go through magic immunity for one thing, and since there's an item that grants that, you're already a step ahead of League in the non-retarded mechanic department.  In addition, there are items that can disarm carries for 4 seconds like Heaven's Halberd.  Finally, there's an item that makes you immune to physical attacks for 4 seconds, which is another counter to it.  On top of that, the only heroes that have the "true damage" mechanic are squishy Intelligence Heroes, much inferior carries to the more potent lategame Agility or Strength heroes, which would be the DotA equivalent to Vayne, Darius, or Irelia.

So I look at the beta patch preview, and they're nerfing Amumu and Lee Sin.  AMUMU AND LEE SIN WHEN YOU'VE GOT HEROES LIKE KHAZIX RUNNING RAMPANT.

I've got to give it to Riot, they've got a really good game, but they've got a long way to go before the balance is comparable to DotA's balance.  People say that the fact that more of the pool is used is proof that LoL's balance is better, but they're ignoring one fundamental fact:  Most players only own a fraction of League's pool, so obviously they're going to become proficient with the heroes they own.  Where in DotA, you can play and become good with any hero, so there's no reason to waste time playing MF because you bought her instead of Vayne. 

I digress.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on January 13, 2013, 01:02:02 AM
I've never actually found khazix to be particularly strong. I tried to play him a bit close to release (was he buffed?) but he didn't feel worth playing.

Eve I feel has HUGE scaling issues that nobody wants to discuss. Look at her q's ratio and cd..

True damage is a big issue. Itd be more of an issue if vayne could actually survive laning phase (I've been thinking about some possible workarounds, but I feel like vayne is countered by the other team putting anyone bottom lane..). Honestly, irelia is a huge issue. Shes just not currently favorable. Imnot really sure why tbh. I also dont keep up with the competitive scene particularly much.

Darius has issues. Everyone knows. Riot doesnt give a shit.

Honestly, there is an incredibly longstanding issue that absolutely nobody seems to want to even think about - ATTACK SPEED REDUCTION. Think about for a moment how strong attackspeed reduction is. Then remember that the numbers on attackspeed reductions are almost exactly the same as slows - Lee's 60% slow? Also reduces your autoattack dps by 60%. Yay! Balanced! ON a basic skill! That costs no mana! I digress slightly more. Malph's stomp thing is like 40%. Yeah. Forever. I think I've ranted on this before, but I hate attackspeed reductions in league.

To riot's credit, they have nerfed carries. A little bit. By reducing the strength of ad carry items, they made it so that carries actually need smore than two items to win the game. Maybe three now. Unfortunately, this is a DIRECT buff to tanky dps........ Yay, tanky dps. I wish it was a buff to casters, but honestly if the caster doesnt combo the carry, the carry is going to win virtually every time. Casters still cant combo anything else, because innate mr scaling, innate hp, etc.

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 13, 2013, 02:05:24 PM
Quote
I've never actually found khazix to be particularly strong. I tried to play him a bit close to release (was he buffed?) but he didn't feel worth playing.
Well, tell me his weakness and maybe I'll reconsider.

http://www.twitch.tv/riotgames/b/356059948

In this video (recent competitive game), fast forward to around 7:56:30 (that's 7 hours, 56 minutes, 30 seconds).  Show me another hero that can do that much damage, that quickly, with that much utility, and continually jump around every half second so that you can't even escape him.

All he had was a BF Sword and a Brutalizer...
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on January 13, 2013, 04:15:26 PM
Quote
I've never actually found khazix to be particularly strong. I tried to play him a bit close to release (was he buffed?) but he didn't feel worth playing.
Well, tell me his weakness and maybe I'll reconsider.

http://www.twitch.tv/riotgames/b/356059948

In this video (recent competitive game), fast forward to around 7:56:30 (that's 7 hours, 56 minutes, 30 seconds).  Show me another hero that can do that much damage, that quickly, with that much utility, and continually jump around every half second so that you can't even escape him.

All he had was a BF Sword and a Brutalizer...
ROFL
khazix literally did nothing there! all he did was the old 'collect kills, get reset'. A tristana couldve done that. A Kat couldve done that. Hell, even a morgana showing up and pressing r couldve done that!

He was merely in the right place at the right time to collect kills. Well played by khazix's team being able to pull off and bait for him properly, but honestly khazix did nothing extraordinary there
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 13, 2013, 05:32:13 PM
I'm sorry but I just flat out disagree with you. I've been watching a lot of competitive LoL lately, and I've never seen any of the heroes you listed do that. Obviously in a pub game, but that wasn't a pub game.

Morgana would have had to walk up to them to do that, in which case they would have just walked away. If she wasted her Flash, they would have just Flashed out of her ult and lived. What netted Khazix all of those kills was not only the ability to do massive AoE burst damage, but also he jumped 4 times. They couldn't get away from him. They could easily get away from Morgana.

Kat has a way to get in granted, but they could have simply stunned her out of her ultimate and killed her. Problem solved.

Tristana with a BF Sword and a Brutalizer doing THAT?! Ha! Tristana needs godly amounts of farm before she becomes useful, which is why she's a tier 5 champion and basically unused in competitive play from what I've seen.

There's a reason Khazix is permabanned in competitive play, and when he's not, that happens.

In fact of the champions you listed, Kat is the only one commonly being used.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on January 13, 2013, 07:01:28 PM
No - Youre just misinterpreting what happened. Morgana couldve easily killed two of them by casting ult alone,with or without flash.

If they had the ability to stun khazix, they would have. On the other hand, kat is less dependent on her ult now than she ever was - Even just her q/w/e couldve collected all of those kills. That argument also falls apart.

Tristana .. I dont think you understand. Tristana has a better jump than khazix. Tristana at level 6 actually has one of the best burst damages IN THE GAME. Surely a level 12 tristana jumping into that group of people could have collected the same kills, all else being equal. Keep in mind that tristana doesnt actually need items to have burst damage - items would only be gravy in this case.


And yet here we are, arguing about a completely insignificant portion of khazix's play (collecting free kills his team set up for him), when in reality we should be arguing about his actual problems.. And yet.. You are fixating on his ability to clean up after a fight. Have you ever seen a tryndamere clean up a fight? He does it pretty well too. Is he op? No.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 13, 2013, 07:28:53 PM
@Lancefighter -

I feel like we're talking about a completely different game here.

If you honestly think that a Tristana with a Brutalizer and a BF Sword jumping into 4 enemy heroes would do absolutely anything but get destroyed, you're either thinking in pub terms, or you don't realize why Trist is pretty much never picked anymore competitively.

If you also think that a Katarina, with the farm equivalent to a Brutalizer and a BF Sword could kill 4 heroes at half health or more with just her Q, W, and E, you are also, sadly, sadly mistaken.  In fact, the Katarina on the other team used all her skills in the same teamfight just before Khazix arrived!  With even more farm, and with her full ultimate hitting Khazix's team, her damage paled in comparison to Khazix's, and also she didn't have the mobility he had to finish her kills off, because where she can "jump" one time, he can jump 4.

Quote
And yet here we are, arguing about a completely insignificant portion of khazix's play (collecting free kills his team set up for him)
You keep saying it was a set up, I think he was just late to the battle.  You keep acting like any hero could do what Khazix did there, but I think you're completely wrong.  With the farm Khazix had at that very moment, NO other hero (including Tryndamere, Kat, Morg, or anybody else) could not do that much AoE damage, while having that much mobility to chase anybody down who tried to get away.  This is why Khazix is pretty much permabanned in competitive play, and when he's not, his team usually wins.

Trynd is bad, he's not used anymore.  Mostly because his design is awful.

But we don't have to argue about it anymore really, I'm still waiting to hear what Khazix's weakness is.  If nobody can provide a clear weakness to the hero, then I have no reason to think he's anything but completely broken.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on January 13, 2013, 11:02:01 PM
I dont really understand where you are coming from still. What about an ap yi with 3k gold in items? (about what brut and bf costs). Thats a full deathcap.
Could he not alpha 5 people to death the same way under highlander? I think he couldve. You keep insisting that nobody else couldve done that, but honestly, there were no stuns left. There wasny anything to stop a kat ult. There was nothing to burst tristana with. Could karthus have walked in there, died, and pressed r for his penta? I think so.

I will grant you that that is probably an incredibly ideal fight for khazix - he landed multiple 2+man jumps, and at least one 3 man void spike thing. But that doesnt make him op - If two people stand next to each other when lich ults, are you going to say lich op? If the entire team groups up and gets echo'd or black holed.. Are those heros op? I dont really think so.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on January 13, 2013, 11:24:10 PM
In that replay, Kha'zix really is just doing clean-up.  Watch as right as Kha'zix enters, Ezreal still has pretty high health and he shifts away from Kha'zix towards Ryze.  Ryze proceeds to blow Ezreal up almost instantly, but Kha'zix sneaks in the KS.  Right after that you'll notice Cho comes in and Feasts on Amumu which brings him down into kill range for Kha'zix.  So yeah he did good damage, but Karthus could have done the same from anywhere on the map just by pressing R.  Darius could have spam-ulted them all.  Heck, Morgana's ult would have likely done the same.

Not saying Kha'zix isn't very strong, because I feel he probably does need a bit of a nerf.  Plus his evolution ability crushes Viktor's staff upgrade so much it is embarassing.  Poor Viktor.  I want to like him, I really do.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 17, 2013, 06:10:26 PM
Well, in this patch Khazix and Eve got some much-needed nerfs, which means I'm much happier about the new current state of the game.  I.e., I'm playing other modes than Draft Mode now since I don't have to ban those 2 every game just to have fun.

Most of the other changes were really good too.  I've even told RCIX and a few other friends that Lee Sin was literally the jack-of-all-trades champion, who had no clear weaknesses, and in the Patch 2 spotlight video it seems they had come to the same conclusion.  It's nice to see his role become a little more focused, though I have no doubt he'll continue to be a solid champion.

I'm not too excited about the new Champion they're working on, who trades armor for this new "soul" mechanic.  I have no doubt that they could make it work, but considering how broken champions often are even when their mechanics really aren't that complicated to begin with on release or remake (*cough* Khazix/Evelyn/Rengar etc. *cough*), adding this complicated mechanic is either going to make the new hero insanely powerful or insanely useless.  That's my prediction anyway, we'll see if I'm right.  Chances are I'll be playing Draft Mode again for another couple weeks after that.

Other than that I think the game is moving in the right direction.  The jungle changes are good.  I agree with RCIX that Vi is a neat hero, though she's nothing groundbreaking like it seemed she might have been at first.  She's very similar to Xin in design, with some minor differences that make her more reliant on her ultimate for CC and kills, but still powerful in her own way.  Her Denting Blows mechanic is great against tanks or health stacking heroes, which is something I really enjoy about playing her; even with all the defensive item nerfs, bruisers and tanky AP still run the show in my opinion, which she's a good counter to.  I'm excited to see what else they have in store before Season 3 begins.

Edit: Oh also, one thing I've found about Vi is that she's also a good counter to Flash and champions with Flash/Dash escape mechanisms as well (so half the cast basically).  If you cast your ult just before they use it (requires some timing and prediction), you'll keep chasing them no matter how many times they Flash away from you.  I've secured some pretty unbelievable kills this way.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on January 17, 2013, 06:29:14 PM
If I could permanently remove any one champ from the game, it would be Lee Sin.  I hate him with a passion.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 18, 2013, 10:41:42 PM
K after my first 11 Games I finally have a rank.  I'm 9-2 so far and I'm above 1500.  My goal is to make it to the 1800s and I'll be happy.  Anyone know what the requirement is for diamond?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 20, 2013, 11:29:22 PM
If I could permanently remove any one champ from the game, it would be Lee Sin.  I hate him with a passion.
After the patch (in which both Lee Sin and Khazix were nerfed), I'd still rather face 2 Lee Sins than 1 Khazix.  They didn't nerf him enough by a long shot.  Lee Sin now has a clear weakness, he tapers off late game.  I still don't see what Khazix can't do, or what his weakness is.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on January 21, 2013, 12:19:53 AM
It occurs to me - You dont play against nunu much, do you. And by play against, i mean during the laning phase.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 21, 2013, 01:45:42 AM
Well I'm not sure how that applies to this discussion.  Khazix is typically a mid or a top, in which Nunu isn't played.  Are you suggesting that the enemy team put a Nunu in Khazix's lane just to counter him or something?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on January 21, 2013, 02:24:04 AM
Oh, no, I am just wondering how much exposure youve had to other VERY anti-fun/imba heros.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 21, 2013, 01:05:16 PM
Nunu...imba?  Haha.  I've never had a problem with him.  There are better supports, junglers, and solo laners.  I'm not sure what is so "anti-fun" or imbalanced about him.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on January 21, 2013, 02:56:04 PM
well - yes, thats exactly my point. As someone who plays a lot of ad carry, nunu is a lot more annoying and not fun to play against than khazix.

Maybe if I played more top lane, then I might fine khazix annoying. Or, more probably, id have a better response for his counters.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: RCIX on January 21, 2013, 03:12:08 PM
Kha'Zix is strong and possibly in need of nerfs, yes -- However, he functions as an assassin who sacrifices burst for some teamfight utility and the snowball jump mechanic. If you put him in a fight with an AD carry he'd win but he would have to use his stealth to break aggro multiple times and it would take him 3-4 seconds. In exchange, he gets a ranged slow/poke, mobility, and damage. The current UPness of armor nonwithstanding, he still outputs 80-90% physical damage and is very weak to reveals/CC. Stick an Alistar, Blitz, Lulu, or Taric (with Oracles for all but Lulu) on whoever he's trying to kill and you can forget killing anyone. Reminds me of Kat in that way, actually.

The eve nerfs were okay, except for the ult damage change, which kind of singlehandedly gutted her. If she opens with it to assassinate, the shield is almost useless, and if she saves it for surprise shield it does little no damage. Combine that with the fact that the ult now only stacks multiplicatively with DFG, she's just somewhat lacking and not really worth fielding anymore. Doesn't help that they stuck random AD ratios on there when the rework happened and then gave a 0.1 buff to each but hybrid or AD eve still sucks and there's no reason to ever do that :(

I actually feel Vi is much better than Xin Zhao, because A: Xin has about 8 radically different kinds of tools in his kit (thus making him supersticky), and B: Xin's Q gives kind of dumb levels of damage for those 3 strikes. He will dash to someone, he will knock them up, he will do a ton of damage, and there is next to nothing you can do about it. What's worse, it's not even hard; QW > E to target > R > huehue rightclick i win

Vi in comparison has a fairly focused kit; it's more-or-less all well built around the theme of punching people, and of gapclosing then doing a lot of damage without being innately sticky.


Now that the Season 3 rework is out ofthe way and everyone is off break, it really feels liek they are kicking back into gear on smaller stuff, fixing things they want to improve instead of just talking about them. <3
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on January 22, 2013, 03:29:38 AM
I really like xin's theme a lot more than vi's - unfortunately, vi is a lot more fun to play, because of more complex mechanics (more depth in play), as well as a not-situational dash (that can double as a disengage if needed) that has hard cc attached.

I dunno, if vi's ult didn't feel so poor, i feel like she would be a lot better.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 22, 2013, 10:53:28 AM
I really disagree with RCIX that Xin is absolutely better than Vi.  I think Xin is a safer pick than Vi, and less situational, but I don't think you can conclude that he's 100% better as he's suggesting.

http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/yodas-2-2k-elo-jungle-vi-1-vi-on-elobuff-281963

This guy seems to have gotten to 2200+ using Vi almost exclusively, so while I disagree with his build, there's definitely competitive potential for her.

One thing I disagree with RCIX on (with Xin being one of my mains), is that you WILL get that third attack off.  You most certainly may not get that third hit off.  With Exhaust lowering your attack speed massively, with so many champions carrying invis or pseudo-flash skills in their kit, and with Flash, QSS, and Cleanse available, it is often the case that you never do land the third hit.  Vi, on the other hand, WILL land her ultimate, and it does not matter how many times they flash, go invisible, dash away, or pray to their dear lord, they are going to get dunked, and that's that.  Against a single target, I don't think there's any debate that Vi's ultimate is much better and more reliable than Xin's, though against an entire team, Xin's obviously shines, if you can get that kind of opportunity. 

Of course for the purpose of my argument, I'm assuming both Xin and Vi are jungling.

Early game, I definitely give the advantage to Xin, because he's such a good ganker.  With his E->W->Q, he can easily catch up to fleeing heroes and secure a kill.  Vi on the other hand is somewhat gimped without her ultimate.  Her Q is good for chasing but it doesn't slow them or knock them into the air, in fact it actually knocks them away from you a bit which is somewhat bad.  However, she's still not a bad ganker pre-6.  The trick (in my experience) is to take Ghost as your secondary Summoner, and bait the Flash.  See, if you take Flash they can just Flash away from you, then even if you Flash after them your Q will be difficult to land.  If you take Ghost, you'll be on top of them, then if they Flash away, you can close the gap within a second and Q to secure the kill.  Ghost mitigates the movement speed slow from Q as well, making it much easier to land on a moving target. 

But where Vi shines, I think, is post-6, when her ultimate comes into play.  As I said before, I disagree with Yoda's build.  For me, I like to get Madred's Razors, Mercury Treads, then rush Youmuu's Ghostblade.  Every 3rd attack, Vi does massive damage to her target.  Xin only does massive damage on his 3rd attack after his skills are off cooldown, so it's actually much less useful as a continual source of damage than is Denting Blows.  Once I finish my Youmuu's, I become a ganking machine.  If your ultimate is off cooldown against a squishy target (usually their ranged carry), they are going to die.

In fact, once I finish my Youmuu's, I finish my Wriggle's Lantern, then I get the Alacrity Boots.  With Mercury Treads + Activated Youmuu's + Alacrity + MS Quints + Ghost, your target is not going to get away from you.  One of my favorite things to face on the enemy team is a TF.  If they have a TF lategame, he is DEAD.  He CANNOT get away from you, he's a slow squishy target, and even if their entire team focuses you, he'll die within seconds.  Sure, they can Exhaust you, but they're exhausting a person with Mercury Treads and the Defensive Tenacity Mastery, which give a total of roughly 45% CC Reduction combined, so about half the duration.  Once again, if they're wasting exhaust on you, and not your carry, it's a huge victory in itself, and it usually won't stop the kill anyway.

Now the only problem with this strategy (blitzing the AP or AD carry in the back) is that your team has to be very responsive.  In ~1500 Ranked (which is where I am so far), this usually isn't a problem.  In normal queue, don't expect anything.  When you jump onto their carry every fight, your team has to be right behind you, taking advantage of the chaos (and the targets you've knocked up along the way).  If they don't instantly react to your initiation, things usually don't turn out so well.

It goes without saying then, that your goal with Vi is not to survive, but to secure that VIP target kill, then do as much damage as you can before you die.  Of course Xin typically has the same role lategame as well.

One thing Vi has over Xin is a nice escape mechanism (because all the new heroes have to have some kind of retarded flash or invis, or in the case of Khazix, both), which means that she's less vulnerable to being caught out lategame.  When Xin gets caught without his team, he's dead.  He has absolutely no way of escaping.  Vi can Q over walls, and is more reliable in general in those kinds of situations, which do happen as an initiator.

So ultimately, I disagree with you that Vi's ultimate is poor.  In fact, against ultra-squishy targets who rely completely on positioning and Flash to survive (such as TF), I would say that it's one of the best ultimates in the game.  I do agree that Xin is the safer pick, and certainly easier to use, but I disagree that he's simply better than Vi because of that.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: RCIX on January 24, 2013, 08:38:31 AM
I don't think Vi is bad (to the contrary, she's one of my new favorites), but it's just that Xin is so much easier and more impactful. Why play a carry-diver melee that is extremely aim-dependent (you more-or-less are guaranteed to lose the trade/teamfight if your Q doesn't hit as Vi) when you can play Xin? He has better mechanics that are easier to use in terms of fulfilling his role.

This right here is the downside of League's "fit character to a role in a unique way" system =p
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 24, 2013, 02:44:03 PM
Yeah but this is a design mechanic that, as far as I can tell, the ARTS/MOBA Genre can't get around.

Two characters may be equally useful, but if one is more difficult to play than the other, obviously the choice is simple when it counts.

Just be thankful that the LoL competitive scene doesn't look like the DotA 2 one, where only like MAYBE 1/4th of the pool is used.  Though I'm pretty sure that the only reason you see more of the LoL roster is that people don't own all the champions, and therefore they play what they have and what they've practiced with for months or years on end.

Though ironically, I think DotA 2's  balance is much better overall, with not a single hero that I would consider useless or even significantly inferior to others.  I can't say the same for LoL, I think a friend hit the nail on the head when he said that about 1/4th of the LoL cast is pretty bad. 

Riot does make up for it with the heroes they do focus on, which are usually very well-designed and enjoyable to play.  When you consider how many champions there actually are, I suppose ignoring a small portion of them isn't too hard to swallow, though it is definitely a serious pitfall for new or returning players.  For example, my cousin wanted to buy Heimer recently...

Some design decisions of Riot kind of baffle me.  Like the decision to give Elise her Spider Form from level one, when Nidalee doesn't get Cougar Form til 6.  I don't think there's any doubt that Elise is a better hero than Nidalee over all.  She's much better at laning, her ranged nuke isn't a skillshot (and it HURTS), she has a ranged stun, does more damage in teamfights, and is overall a much safer and more reliable pick.  And I absolutely chalk a lot of this up to the fact that Elise gets her Spider Form from level 1.  If she had to wait til 6 like Nidalee, she'd still probably be a better hero, but only marginally, not overwhelmingly like she is now.

It just seems like Riot's tendency is to make the new heroes flat out better than the old ones.  Consider the fact that Lulu and Nami, two of the most recent supports, are also two of the best supports in the game.  It looks like Thresh will be an amazing support hero as well.  Look at Khazix and Jayce.  These designs are just simply better than what was in the game before, and I don't like it.  They need to at least try to keep the new designs balanced with the old ones (the Spider Form level 1 is a good example) when they make a hero.


Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on January 24, 2013, 05:13:33 PM
And yet we still have discussions about ezreal being one of the best carries - Sure, there are 'newer' heros with their fancy designs and such excelling at some roles, but often the old standby heros are the ones people turn to.

overall I tend to agree that dota's balance is far better, but sometimes it feels like the outliers are much stronger in dota - Look at drow's 60% pub winrate for the majority of the last few months.. Or silencer's newfound strengths.

On the other hand though, league heros tend to snowball a lot harder, I would say.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 24, 2013, 05:43:34 PM
Ezrael is only a problem because he has a built-in Flash. Flash is still the most Powerful Summoner Spell in the game by far, even after countless nerfs, and EZ gets one, on a ranged carry no less, with a fraction of a fraction of the cooldown. I don't think it would matter what his skillset was with that advantage.

In terms of DotA's outliers, you have to remember that Drow was considered underpowered for YEARS, even after a considerable number of substantial buffs. Did you know that they made her auto-attack the longest in the game? That would be like giving Ashe, a ranged carry with a devastating slow, the longest attack range of all champions...yeah. People STILL didn't use her; and after years of similar buffs, IceFrog just decided to try something crazy (Eve comes to mind).

But recognize that there is one MASSIVE fundamental difference between the two games. Drow and Silencer, over 3 months after their remakes, STILL haven't been released into competitive play. Which means they are disabled in Draft Mode. Riot releases Champions into the game in whatever broken state they're in and lets the players fend for themselves. In both games, Draft Mode is a way to avoid overpowered heroes, DotA just doesn't make me waste my bans on them.

Whether Silencer got buffed is questionable. His old passive aura silenced enemies for 3 seconds after each spell. Can you imagine that in League? Yeah. Well they removed it and replaced it with a single target spell, while buffing some of his other skills. It is yet to be seen whether he'll be competitive material.

Speaking of competitive material, I picked up Katarina the other day and she's a lot of fun. They did a great job on the rework, maybe a little TOO good ;p

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on January 25, 2013, 01:36:19 AM
I recently picked up Katarina.

Her fun in game is only matched by the fun of pondering the best build.

Her lack of needing mana or cdr's means her options are narrowed, yet with her ratios you are torn with making a small but noticable boost to damage with all her damage via ability power, and making your ult an absolute nuke with attack damage.

And with her ult, she has the potential of doing so much base damage, that you want tanky items to live long enough to finish the ult.

I'm so experimenting the best way to handle different situations.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 25, 2013, 02:39:14 AM
I suppose it hasn't been massively important to me; finding the perfect build I mean.

I play her like all of my favorite champions, super-aggressively and with a lot of movespeed.

I take MS Quints, and get the Utility 2% extra speed out of combat mastery.  Then I upgrade my boots with Alacrity after my first major item.

I typically rush Liandru's Torment (or whatever it's called), then just go from there depending on what the game requires.  After that I get the Alacrity upgrade, then Warmog's, then I can just build whatever I need. 

The extra movespeed from runes, masteries, and items may not sound like much, but I find it's essential to your ganking prowess and to securing a lot of kills.  The fact of the matter is, an unsuspecting enemy is going to start running as soon as they see you, and if you never get in range to Shunpo, it's a failed gank.

Overall she's a lot of fun to play, very twitchy and risk/reward.  She's top-tier after the remake.  If she's balanced, she's only balanced with the best characters in the game imo, not with most of the cast.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on January 25, 2013, 02:48:18 AM
From what I understand, they moved silencer into a more active playstyle. And gave him a basically on demand non-ultimate silence. Also, unless thats changed, it deals damage before a spell like refraction can happen. (not sure about spiked carapace.. but its the same idea)

Anyway, from what I am told, drow is actually available in wc3 dota's captains mode.

and saying ezreal is only a problem because of built in flash is kinda stupid. Its not because of his blink at all - its because of the cooldown reduction provided by his q. He had problems before of his w being stupidly op, but thankfully they finally realized it has no business healing. (oh, yeah, and reducing attackspeed)

I've honestly yet to hear your argument for why someone like tristana isnt blatantly OP - She has the best level 6 burst damage in the game (a few casters will outburst her. Very few.). She has the best attackspeed steroid in the game. She has both self peel, a blink that resets on assists, and a healing debuff, not to mention a fairly strong slow. Oh, and has the highest range in the game.

Dont get me wrong - there are easily arguments to be made, but saying ezreal is purely OP because of his blink is the argument of someone who doesnt realize what actually makes people strong.

In related news - Dotabuff rankings went up today. I am in the 91%. (1636, plat)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: RCIX on January 25, 2013, 05:41:49 AM
Trist has 2 options:

Max Q and have a horrible early game, or max W or E and have a horrible midgame (not building AP so she doesn't scale like casters). Granted, AD carries are kind of about the late game but a hypercarry has to be comped around and allowed to farm to do her job.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: RCIX on January 25, 2013, 06:34:39 AM
Some design decisions of Riot kind of baffle me.  Like the decision to give Elise her Spider Form from level one, when Nidalee doesn't get Cougar Form til 6.  I don't think there's any doubt that Elise is a better hero than Nidalee over all.  She's much better at laning, her ranged nuke isn't a skillshot (and it HURTS), she has a ranged stun, does more damage in teamfights, and is overall a much safer and more reliable pick.  And I absolutely chalk a lot of this up to the fact that Elise gets her Spider Form from level 1.  If she had to wait til 6 like Nidalee, she'd still probably be a better hero, but only marginally, not overwhelmingly like she is now.
Elise is arguably worse at pushing, is entirely short ranged, doesn't have a 40% armor AND mr shred, and doesn't have an ally heal. =p The form change at level 1 vs 6 is A: because Nid is an older design and B: because Cougar form is *really* good at dueling. Nid would be almost unbearable to lane against if she could go cougar to run away from anything or snipe off kills at level 1.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 25, 2013, 07:51:34 AM
Quote
Elise is arguably worse at pushing
They're both decent at pushing so I don't see this as being a huge deal either way.  Elise with her Volatile Spider and her Skittering Frenzy + Spiderlings can actually burst down a tower much faster than Nidalee with just her auto-attacks. 

Elise's short range hardly matters when she has a powerful, percentage-based, on-demand nuke that she can spam over and over again, making her one of the best laners in the game.  For that matter, Kat has VERY short range, but I wouldn't say that does much to hurt her laning phase :P

Quote
doesn't have a 40% armor AND mr shred,
Erm, if you're referring to Nidalee's traps, that's a 20% Armor and MR Reduction, not 40%, and that's only if they step on it.  Kind of hard to make someone step on a trap in the middle of a teamfight...It only becomes 40% at the highest level, and since most Nidalees max this skill last, it's going to be 20% for most of the game, and once again, it's really not that reliable.

Quote
Nid would be almost unbearable to lane against if she could go cougar to run away from anything or snipe off kills at level 1.
For one thing, she would have a tough time "sniping" off kills at level one with just Pounce :P

Secondly, I wasn't suggesting giving Nidalee Cougar Form at level one, I was questioning the logic behind giving Elise Spider Form at level one, which I consider to be equivalent to Cougar Form in practical usefulness throughout the game. 

You're also ignoring the fact that even if Nidalee has a few advantages over Elise (such as her ability to chase and escape in the jungle), Elise still has a far superior laning phase, in which she can shut down many heroes completely.  She is better at ganking because she has a stun and possibly the best gap closer in the game with Rappel.  She is better in teamfights well...because she does something.  That's pretty much all you have to do to be better than Nid in a teamfight...anything.  Overall she's just a better champion, which is why she's almost permanently banned in competitive play, where Nidalee is rarely even picked.

Once again, I don't think that taking away Elise's Spider Form til 6 would render her useless, she would just be on Nidalee's level, which granted, is not top tier.

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 28, 2013, 10:14:32 AM
Great: Amumu, Anivia, Blitz, Draven, Elise, Eve, EZ, Garen, Graves, Hecarim, Irelia, Jax, Jayce, Kat, Kayle, Khazix, Lee Sin, Lulu, Nami, Olaf, Orianna, Riven, Shen, Taric, Thresh, TF, Twitch, Vayne, Vi, Xin.

Good: Ahri, Akali, Alistar, Annie, Ashe, Brand, Cait, Cho, Darius, Diana, Janna, Jarvan, Kennen, Leona, Lux, Malzahar, MF, Morgana, Nautilus, Nocturne, Nunu, Panth, Renekton, Rengar, Rumble, Shaco, Sona, Talon, Teemo, Urgot, Varus, Wukong, Zed, Ziggs, Zilean, Zyra.

Average:
Cass, Mundo, Fiora, Galio, Gangplank, Karthus, Kass, LeBlanc, Maokai, Mord, Nasus, Nidalee, Rammus, Ryze, Skarner, Soraka, Swain, Vlad, WW, Xerath.

Bad: Corki, Fiddle, Heimer, Karma, Kogmaw, Master Yi, Poppy, Sejuani, Singed, Sion, Sivir, Syndra, Tristana, Trynd, Veigar, Viktor, Voli.

Undecided: Gragas, Malphite, Shyvana, Trundle, Udyr, Yorick.

If I had to make a tier list, that's what it would look like.  For the heroes in the "undecided" category, I just haven't seen enough games with them to make a proper decision.  Or in the case of Malphite, I know he belong in either the "good" or "great" tier, but I'm concerned he's a little overrated.

By the way, a hero being in the "Average" or "Bad" category doesn't mean you can't own with them, they're just inferior to the top two categories.  I consider "Great" to be the best heroes in the game, while "Good" is not as powerful, but still viable in the hands of a good player.





Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on January 28, 2013, 10:50:38 AM
Heimerdinger is a lot of fun, but I only played against bots ;)  Still, having the enemy's central inhibitor down before my first recall was pretty entertaining.

But yea, I was disappointed when I realized my then-favorite champ was widely regarded as laughably bad meta-wise.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: RCIX on January 29, 2013, 01:42:25 AM
Corki is one of the only ADCs with an innate armor shred and he pushes very well with solid multitype damage. Dunno why he's not seen as much right now, he's still the Courage portion of the Triforce of OP ADCs that were complained about so much during near end of Season 2.

Kog is solid but dependent on a comp which will protect him. His DPS is the highest out of ALL carries, PERIOD, but he just needs the highest amount of peel and defense steroids to live to use it. The only big reason you don't see "protect the kog" comps is because it's difficult to slot that much utility into the rest of a team; make a defensive support or two viable in other lanes and he will come back faster than you can say "how the hell did i just die so fast".

Syndra and Viktor are absolutely not bad tier. Viktor is only slightly weak and still performs as well as he did before the S3 changes (read: very well but no one bothered for unknown reasons), and right now the _only_ reason you don't see more Syndra is because of a combination of all traditional AP AoE/teamfight mages being weak right now PLUS her being overlooked at release before she got significant buffs.

Ryze is considered top tier because of how much damage he pours out while naturally itemizing for lots of tankiness. As long as Ryze is alive, he will be spamming spells and because of his ult, dealing mucho AoE. Only unplayed due to the AD caster mid spam where he can't farm at all. He's short range but because of the sheer DPS potential of what is effectively a 2 second Q cooldown combined with commensurately short CD mres shreds and snares, and then spellvamp on all of that aoe facewrecks.

Annie sits very low on the mage tier list and always has because she has cripplingly short range and so most mages just poke her out of lane. Bear AoE stun is pretty good but when you're underfarmed and have no kills (and annie was always vaguely kill dependent)...

Brand is also kind of low because... well, there's no particular reason to pick him. He's very difficult to play correctly, and when he does get played correctly he ends up being a squishy teamfight caster with no mobility and low CC, and that just doesn't fit in many comps. He does excel at being what amounts to a mage bruiser who can burn almost anyone down, but only Dominion has let him do that.

Eve is very, very overrated with the most recent nerfs, and depends on feeding off of blatant mistakes to win. That can be done, but then it's easier to do with others now =p

Zed is just waiting for people to realize he has quite literally over 9000 burst. It's trivial to build enough damage on him so that an AD carry dies then buy tank items to soak damage.

Heimerdinger is a lot of fun, but I only played against bots ;)  Still, having the enemy's central inhibitor down before my first recall was pretty entertaining.

But yea, I was disappointed when I realized my then-favorite champ was widely regarded as laughably bad meta-wise.
Which was also why he was nerfed, the game of "lose one or more objectives any time you recall to heal or shop" just kinda sucks =p
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on January 29, 2013, 12:32:39 PM
Heimerdinger is a lot of fun, but I only played against bots ;)  Still, having the enemy's central inhibitor down before my first recall was pretty entertaining.

But yea, I was disappointed when I realized my then-favorite champ was widely regarded as laughably bad meta-wise.
Which was also why he was nerfed, the game of "lose one or more objectives any time you recall to heal or shop" just kinda sucks =p
He was nerfed again?  When I played him he was down to two turrets at once (I understood he'd previously been able to do three) and considered a "play for fun" character but not competitive at all.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on January 30, 2013, 02:34:23 AM
Eh.. He hasnt been in a good spot, metawise, for a long time. The push meta just doesnt exist. I kinda wish league would fall into a nice push meta, but instead they want to do some stupid farm meta. I hate farming metas. Boring game.

Anyway, I think the only reason I wanted to post here was to be annoyed that wingflier called tristana bad. Tristana is literally the best hero in the league, and you better believe it. And if you dont, ill bash you over the head with her cannon.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 30, 2013, 05:27:48 AM
Tristana is bad, and I stand by that.

I didn't even respond to your earlier rant about Ezreal vs. Tristana, because your argument was so ridiculous.

Ezreal's Flash is a billion times better than Tristana's.  Comparing the two is laughable.  Ezreal's is near instant, Tristana's has about a second cast delay, I've seen her die so many times before even getting it off (or in mid-air), it's not even funny.

But why debate it?  The proof is in the pudding.  Swap Tristana's Rocket Jump with Ezreal's Phase Shift, and Tristana would INSTANTLY become the superior champion.  Better initiations, better escapes, just much better overall.  Meanwhile, Ezreal's ability to kite, chase, and flee would be gimped; he would most likely stop being used in competitive play.

It doesn't even matter that Rocket Jump refreshes on kill or assist.  Tristana's kit makes absolutely no sense.  Why would a ranged carry with one of the longest attack distances in the game want to JUMP ON TOP of her target in the first place?  It is so bafflingly stupid that whoever designed it should be shot (with Buster Cannon).  Speaking of Buster Cannon, it also makes no sense.  It's good for peeling somebody off you I guess?  It's damage it's too weak to be used as a finisher, many other ADCs have better finishers (Graves comes to mind).  You're not going to use it to leap behind somebody and knock them into your team, because you would die instantly...

So yes, if Tristana is extremely farmed, she's a beast.  Yet most other ADCs can farm better, and their skillsets make much more sense.  Tristana is fine in pubs I guess, but I still think she's bad, and I still think Rocket Jump is completely inferior to Phase Shift regardless of what you say.

ALSO to your comment about Tristana having one of the highest level 6 bursts in the game LOL.  Are you talking about AP Tristana?  Because AD Tristana's "burst" is certainly not one of the highest in the game at level 6 (or at any part of the game for that matter).
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on January 30, 2013, 05:56:44 AM
Your comment about tristana's burst not being the highest baffles me.

Lets compare to the average caster - Annie. Assuming annie levels her skills in a manner that gives her as much burst as possible, she gets 200+180+125. This comes out to a pretty average 505. And we are levelling things optimally.

Tristana, again, under the same assumption (and again, no ap, no autoattacks), has 160+140+300. This, I'm not sure if you know, comes out to 600. Which I'm pretty sure is actually higher than 505. Additionally, this is a completely normal build, you see in basically any trist game.

Very weak. Very.

Under optimal conditions on graves, if you dont level your e, and assume q hits three times, you deal 221+110+250, which comes out to 581. Sure, you can argue something about ad scaling and shit, but I dont actually care. Its kinda important to realize that tristana's base damage is actually really good. And maybe I could mention that she also her ratios add up to 2.3, whereas annies are 2.15.

If you took away tristana's signature skill and replaced it with a skill that serves a similar function, youve basically done nothing. Youve severly gimped tristana by removing her disengage after a successful early game engagement. Youve taken away her only real cc.

(Leb - 210+80+85+232. 607. Granted, thats not optimal damage, she can deal slightly more by maxing her chains. But thats not how you play leb)


And yet, all of this is a rebuttal merely to your disagreement on her burst damage. The argument is NOT ridiculous. And yet you completely dismiss it, claiming ezreal's dominance. Maybe youve forgotten other parts about tristana's jump - It the longest range (nonult) blink in the game. Youre correct in that the silly jump-knockback combo isnt particularly effective. Except youre forgetting the scale of such a thing. In the bottom lane engagements, her ult is incredibly strong. It is hilariously more versatile than grave's nuke. It is easier to use than ezreal's channeled ult. It is an interrupt. This is kinda important. It can save allies. And, as I mightve mentioned, it contributes to tristana's hilarious level 6 damage.

Tristana is outfarmed by other carries? Tristana has some of the best farming spells in the game. She has two spells that can easily keep melees off of her, the best steroid in the game, and a counter-heal.

Is this the point where I challenge you to a manfight? Or do I need to get my entire team together?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 30, 2013, 07:30:21 AM
Look even if she does have the highest level 6 burst damage in the game (which she doesn't for various reasons), I don't care about that.  An ADC's job is not to get kills at level 6, and ADC's job is to...carry.

Furthermore, her "burst damage", if you want to call it that, falls off extremely quickly mid to late game.  This is because her skills do magic damage, on a physical carry...This makes absolutely no sense.  You haven't even factored this into your equation by the way. 

Chances are, those AP casters are going to have magic pen runes and the magic pen mastery, which means they'll be doing 20% or more damage with their spells by level 6 than will Tristana, who doesn't use magic pen.  More examples of a retarded kit that needs to be updated or reworked.

This kind of inconsistency has been slowly updated over time.  From what I remember, Miss Fortune's ultimate used to do magical damage, but obviously that made absolutely no sense, so they changed it to physical.  Eventually I'm sure they'll update Tristana as well.

Quote
In the bottom lane engagements, her ult is incredibly strong. It is hilariously more versatile than grave's nuke. It is easier to use than ezreal's channeled ult. It is an interrupt. This is kinda important. It can save allies. And, as I mightve mentioned, it contributes to tristana's hilarious level 6 damage.
Her ult in bottom lane, aside from the level 6 burst, which falls off quickly, is good for stopping a potential gank maybe. 

Once again, 300/400/500 magic damage on a physical carry is NOT something you want to rely on to secure you a kill, especially considering that it pushes your target away.  I can't even count on two hands how many times I've seen Tristana throw away a kill because she misjudged her ultimate and therefore the target survived.

I'd much rather have an Ashe arrow to start a fight, or an Ezreal ultimate which can severely damage an entire team, or secure a fleeing kill, or a Graves ultimate which is actually good as a finisher, and doesn't push your target away.  If I want someone to peel for my carry, I'll take a Lulu; I'd rather have an ultimate that does something late game, if it's all the same to you.  In fact, I would take Vayne's Condemn over Buster Shot any day of the week.  At least Condemn stuns the target when they hit a wall, and is functionally just as useful for self-peeling as Buster Shot, on a much lower cooldown.  It also does physical damage, and scales 1:1 with attack damage, making it much more powerful as the game progresses.

Speaking of team fights, that's really where Tristana fails the most.  Ignoring the aforementioned ultimate, which is rather useless compared to the superior AD Carry ults in team fights, she has a serious problem of positioning.  It doesn't matter what your range is if you have to stand on the edge of battle doing nothing.

Take for example heroes like Ezreal, Graves, and Vayne.  These champions all have really nice positioning abilities, which allows them to kite around in the battle, ignoring the tank, and focusing on the squishier, priority targets first.  Graves and Vayne have a dash that comes up every few seconds, and while Ezreal's is a little longer, it's still a great positioning tool, and is what gives him such great mobility in a team fight.

What exactly does Trist do in a team fight?  Say the fight has begun and you're standing on the edge of it.  Now a Singed runs up to you.  What do you?  Do you Rocket Jump away?  Now you're a million miles from everything that's happening, and your team is left to get slaughtered.  Do you Buster Shot him?  Okay, you've done absolutely no damage to him and he'll be back on top of you within seconds...While Graves, Vayne, and Ezreal can kite him enough to stay useful in a team fight with their dashes and mobility, he's going to shut Trist down hard.  And this is a reoccuring problem for Tristana.  She gets shut down easily by zoning.  If you use your Rocket Jump to ENTER the fight, you better hope to God that you get a kill or assist before that 10 second cooldown expires, otherwise you're done for.

The only way Tristana can get around this fundamental design flaw is by being SO farmed that even tanks fear you, so someone like Singed, Alistar, or any other tank is going to fear trying to zone you.  That's an unreasonable amount of farm to expect on her, which is why she's not used in competitive play.

Also, when I say she can't farm as well as other carries, I don't mean her abilities don't lend themselves to farming (Wow if we're talking purely about abilities, Malzahar should be the best farmer in the game by far...just doesn't seem to work out that way in practice), I mean that other ADCs have a superior laning phase, and superior killing potential much earlier than she does, excluding the gimmicky level 6 magic burst which falls off quickly.



Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on January 30, 2013, 02:53:39 PM
see, now youve completely shifted your argument - Tristana's migame is, as mentioned, kinda bad.

Honestly, if we want to argue about tristana's burst, it really needs to be compared to other bot lane heros, and very few of them actually rely on the same level of upfront damage tristana can deal. Graves is the sole exception, and I did make that comparison. Yes, arguments can be made about armor and mr being different, in addition to armor pen and magic pen.. But I really do not feel that is a big deal. (i could also bring up that heros traditionally have more armor than mr at 6)

Lets look at the singed argument with some other heros, what do you say?

Ashe - Cries because she has no way to get singed off of her.
Graves - Dies because he has no cc, and a pretty bad shortrange jump
Ezreal - Tries to blink away, but is trolled by singed's flip having stupid mechanics associated with it.

None of these can deal with singed. Honorable mention actually goes to vayne here, who has the skills to avoid singed, assuming no detection. However..  Tristana is actually not bad against singed. Tristana can buster him across a wall, somewhat ideally. Trist can jump herself across a wall. She has the range to easily carry from across a wall. And when tristana is on the other side of a wall, any assists she gets gives her the ability to use her incredibly strong reposition again.
Condemn is a poor skill because, primarily, bugs associated with it. Additionally, its range is shorter, its knockback distance is about half of tristana's, and it feels more difficult to use. Sure, its a really good stun if it hits a wall, but a carry is not supposed to provide stuns. A carry is, as you mentioned, supposed to right click on people till they die.

Except, youre still missing a few points. Pair trist with any sort of stun or damage ,and you have an incredibly strong bot lane duo. This duo can often kill a target well before their chance to react. Does this not lend to carrying? In league, you worry a lot about snowballing. If I can kill my bot lane opponents repeatedly, is this not going to lead to incredibly strong mid-late carry potential?

And finally, we are busy arguing about level 6 burst, while completely ignoring her level 2 burst. Do I really need to remind you that she has 180 damage + a 60% slow for 2.5 seconds? In an aoe? And a healing reduction? She has an incredibly strong laning phase.


I am really trying to bring any sort of personal attachment into this (yes, trist is my favorite hero, and I could tell tales of all the things I've done), but at the same time I am having incredible difficulty avoiding mentioning that I feel you have absolutely no experience playing with/against a competent tristana. Dont get me wrong, I dont mean one much more skillful, I just mean one that is competent. One that actually knows the fine lines they need to not cross with rocket jump. One that knows exactly how strong buster shot is, primarily referring to killing potential. I really do  not feel that ezreal or graves has anywhere near the skillcap tristana does, honestly. And tristana comes with a higher floor to be relevant too.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 30, 2013, 05:25:55 PM
Well, I was going to write this extremely detailed response to all your points but I'm just too tired.  I've been exhausted today so I better conserve what little energy I have left to do my homework.

Instead, I'll simply say that you're obliged to show me what a "decent" Tristana actually looks like by playing with me.  Not that I doubt that most Tristanas I've ever played with are bad, but I would be interested to see how a good one is played.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on January 30, 2013, 07:57:59 PM
lol fair enough - I do have one stipulation though; I do not play without my support player. League as a game is too annoying to try to do without someone I can implicitly trust, especially when I am duolaning.

Or, I mean, I could show you the strengths of an ad tristana middle, but for some reason people dont like it when I do that. She really used to roflstomp kassadin, and quite a few other mids. I once went against the legendary Jesse Perring as tristana. True story.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on January 31, 2013, 09:35:30 AM
Tristana, hmm, that reminds me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHqH--zQJ3E).  Anyway, Tristana's level 6 burst is the reason a lot of pros will take her in 1v1 duels to first blood.  She can reliably kill almost any champion at level 6, and those she can't are often melee and susceptible to constant ranged harassment to the point that she can kill them.  But I do agree with Wingflier, her kit is really ugly.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 01, 2013, 09:30:28 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EevdEwQNjG4

These changes to ranked play are awesome.  Very innovative, I like how it pits you against a (relatively) small group of people so that you can develop rivalries, and eventually fight them into a little mini-tournament to reach the next bracket.  I'm impressed with this new system.

I am curious about how duo queue will work though.  If each player is in their 250 player division, which division does it use?  Or does it create an entirely new one?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 10, 2013, 02:21:19 AM
Finally made it to Gold IV, after much kicking, screaming, raging, yelling, and crying.  I've literally gotten so angry over the past couple weeks that I've thrown things across the room in pure rage.  I've pulled my hair and smacked my head, cried, laughed, and done everything in-between. 

League's matchmaking system is freaking garbage.  It puts you with people that troll you so hard, don't listen to directions, or just flat-out suck.  I literally lost 80% or more of my solo queue games.  There were games where I would go 15-0, and I would still lose.  I generally like to play solo, but it wasn't until I started duo-queuing that I began winning games.  I literally win 85% or more of my duo-queue games, which is basically the polar opposite of my solo queue games.

And the sad thing is, I started in Gold, I feel so bad for the people stuck in Silver or Bronze.  The amount of trolling and griefing in that tier must be unbelievable. 

So anyway, the moral of the story is, if you want to move up in Gold or below, get a good duo partner.  It decreases your chances of getting a team full of incompetent retards.  With a good partner, you can usually carry the game into victory, it seems to make all the difference.  Granted, it won't ALWAYS work (sometimes your team is uncarryable), but it seems to work most the time.

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on February 10, 2013, 02:29:30 AM
I started in silver 1, and got promoted pretty easily (i am like very evidently way above my skill level).. Contrary to this, a friend that also started in silver 1 is having incredible problems advancing, despite queueing with me.

I honestly dont know - I dont feel like advancing, beause the games arent particularly fun. But at the same time, I'm pretty sure I could fairly easily. (funny thing - I am like 90% in soloq, and ~50% in duo) Also, almost every game i am playing has me as fp, even the solo ones.
*shrug* if I had a little more motivation, i might.. But its just not there.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 10, 2013, 03:58:55 AM
Well, ranked is definitely a whole different beast than normal, that's for sure.

In fact, I guess I didn't realize just how different it would be until I really dove into it and started playing it exclusively.  The main difference is that people take it a lot more seriously.  At least (in solo queue) the people on the other team do.  There's more level 1 invades, roaming, warding, counter-warding, map calling, map awareness, and the tempo of the game in general is a lot different than in normal.  It takes a lot of adjusting to, but now that I have, I can't go back to normal games.  I just don't care anymore.  Nobody really cares whether they win or lose, it's like we're all just here to have fun, so winning is a secondary concern.

So I definitely see what you're saying.  Personally I think I belong in Platinum, and possibly even Diamond, but unfortunately I'm restricted to playing duo queue games with others to make it there, which somewhat limits how quickly I can advance.  Once I hit Platinum League, we'll see about solo queuing again; at which time I can only hope that the average skill level of my team has risen, and the average troll level has fallen.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on February 10, 2013, 07:24:22 AM
If you belong in plat, then you should be able to make it there yourself *shrug*

Saying that duo queue is the only way to advance sounds to me like you are relying a lot on getting carried.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 10, 2013, 11:07:03 AM
If you belong in plat, then you should be able to make it there yourself *shrug*

Saying that duo queue is the only way to advance sounds to me like you are relying a lot on getting carried.
I would make it to plat if the game was 1v1 :P

But if the system puts me with people who troll on purpose, feed, don't listen to advice, etc., there's not much I can do.

If you win 90% of your solo queue games, I venture to say you just got lucky.  For my placement matches, I won 9 out of 10 of them, which placed me in Gold, and that was when I had no experience with ranked whatsoever.  I'm a much better player in Ranked since then, yet I continue to lose over 80% of my solo queue games.  Why?  I'm probably just unlucky.

You even said yourself earlier in our discussion, 80% of the games are decided by factors out of your control.  40% of the time your team will win with or without you.  40% your team will lose with or without you.  It's that 20% of the time that you can really make the difference.

So if that theory is true, then in Ranked you'll only win about 60% of the time in solo queue, and that's if you're lucky.  Sometimes you'll do better, sometimes you'll do worse.  I played about ~15 games and lost 13 of them or so.  It's not because I was playing bad, it's because I was unlucky.

All you're doing by duo queuing is increasing your odds of winning.  You get control over whether another member of your team will be good, so obviously this makes you chances of winning much higher.

I talked to a guy who is in Diamond right now (he was around 2350 before the change), and he gave me the same advice.  So unless you want to say that someone carried him to 2350, which I know they didn't because he's an amazing player, then maybe it's just a good idea to listen to players better than yourself.  In the online streams I watch where professional players such as Voyboy and Santvicious solo rank, they always duo as well.  They must be getting carried too.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on February 10, 2013, 06:24:36 PM
mm Yeah, that sounds about right. I could make arguments however citing extreme cases (a clearly high elo player playing seriously in low elo SHOULD stomp the game almost 100% of the time), but I am not sure as to how effective that is in reality. And overall, that just sounds a lot like I'm trying to take back what I said earlier anyway.


My point is that yes, I probably was pretty lucky.

Still, through duoqueue, unless you are queueing with someone who is ACTUALLY good, it likely wont make that much of a difference. As I said earlier - I duoqueued with one of my friends (who honestly I believe is around low gold). Despite my partner not being bad at the game, its most accurate to say that I dont believe my partner to have been able to carry a gold level game - And thus is no better than any of my other teammates.

Sure, it should be that I am the one to carry said games, if I do believe myself to be of higher elo, but I think the point I am making is that duoqueueing isnt always going to be beneficial.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 10, 2013, 06:45:59 PM
I guess it just depends on who you're duo queuing with.

In my view there are two different factors:

Your deserved rating, and your actual rating.

Your actual rating is what you have after x amount of games, your deserved rating is roughly what your skill level justifies.

So someone could have an actual rating of 1200, but have a deserved rating of 1800.  It happens all the time.  If during your placement matches you get trolled, get d/cers (happens quite often in ranked games), have some bad teams, or just have some bad games, you may get put way below where you deserve.  From there, it's an uphill climb to get to where you should be.  The problem is that the lower the rating goes, the more likely you are to encounter trolls, disconnectors, and feeders.  Higher ELOs sort those players out by virtue of requiring wins to progress.  So in a sense, ELO hell is very real, and while you may be able to get out of it over a long period of time, you'll meet a lot of heartache and resistance along the way.

I simply play with people whose deserved rating is probably around platinum or diamond, but who are still stuck in silver or low gold.  That way, assuming that the other players in the game actually belong in their ELO, it's an absolute stomp.  This is because 2 people who deserve a much higher rating than what they have, will obviously make much more of an impact that 1 person.

Edit:  As a solo queuer, I think it also depends on what lane and champion you play as well.  If you're a really good Kat mid, for example, you could probably carry a lot more games than an Irelia top.  This is because Katarina is one of the snowballiest champions in the game.  She can crush most mid lanes (especially against lesser-skilled players), then gank top, bot, and jungle by virtue of being mid.  In addition to this, she also wrecks in team fights as well, meaning at no point in the game does she ever stop becoming useful.

So my point is, there are probably some cheesy roles and champions you could learn (*cough* Khazix) that would be much more tailored for solo queue games, but I like to play what I want to play, not what I have to play to capitalize on bad players.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on February 10, 2013, 07:00:46 PM
Odd, i just picked tristana and stomped all the bot lanes.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 10, 2013, 07:13:34 PM
Yes but didn't you say yourself that Tristana excels at killing enemy players at level 6, then snowballing from there? 

That's an example of what I mean. 

It's kind of like when I first started playing Starcraft 2.  I literally got to Rank 1 Diamond, the highest rating possible at the time, simply by using a cheesy Zerg Rush Strategy.  However, I couldn't keep that rating for long because the best players knew how to deal with it.

It's the same with the Tristana burst.  It's going to work well for a long time, and give you the ability to do something that most ADCs can't do, which is be powerful early game AND lategame.  But once you get to a level of play where people aren't stupid enough to just let you kill them at 6 every time (at least without some risk), the games will start to reach your skill level.

That's my theory anyway.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on February 10, 2013, 07:21:50 PM
To be fair, I'm pretty sure youve been arguing with me for a few days about how bad tristana is.

And yes, she does have to downsides .I've spent enough time with her to feel comfortable with them at least, so its not going to be quite a shock when it no longer works. There was a point when I needed to completely relearn how i played riven, which was pretty annoying. Then again, more annoying was trying to lane against singed.. Or yorick..

Anyway, more digression. Yeah, sure, for a while I will be able to play tristana as I do. Maybe at some point theyll exhaust me midjump and I will be really sad. And you would imagine that someone would pick like graves/taric and try to do the same thing..

Overall, I just feel that being practiced with a champion is far more important than anything else. I have put many hundred games in with tristana, and I am fairly confident in most all matchups, in many varying situations.

In starcraft, I did something similar. I had this really stupid marine/marauder push that happened early enough to be called a rush. if I did it right, basically free win. Problem was, I had no real macro game if that failed. then at some point it started failing, and I swapped to protoss. Toss are a cooler race anyway.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 11, 2013, 01:30:32 AM
I think I was wrong about Trist.  I've seen her in some Ranked games now, and in some competitive games.  She's decent.  I still don't think she's as reliable as the other carries, but a niche pick like Kogmaw that works well in certain lineups.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on February 11, 2013, 04:45:38 AM
I'm actually kinda surprised kog hasnt seen a resurgence with the recent hp meta. Unless of course its still the case that he dies too easily? I can understand vayne, with her exceptionally short range might be difficult to deal with in the lategame, but kog has the range of nearly two tristanas..
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 11, 2013, 07:19:11 AM
Kog's laning phase is abysmal. When picking Kog you're basically guaranteeing a lost laning phase, or at best, an even one.  Even when you ignore his lack of escape mechanism, which requires you to build a team of peelers for him, you also still have to worry about his unfortunate laning phase.  This does, however, make him a good counterpart to an enemy Vayne or other ADC with a similarly useless laning phase.

Despite that I still see him sometimes.  I think he was used successfully in the Curse vs. CLG game just the other day.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on February 11, 2013, 09:21:31 AM
I can't wait to be able to not play with useless supports at bot:

I had a nunu support who did not:

-Use his steroid on the carry more then 10% of the time (it is easy to do it at least 90% of the time) in both laning and in teamfights
-Know when to buy wards, let alone place them outside lanning phase
-Know who to focus in a teamfight
-Get a pink ward at any point of the game due to fighting twitch
-Have a single aura 30 minutes into the game


It's doubly aggravating because bot is my specialty, so I notice every little thing any support of mine can do since I've played said support a lot.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 11, 2013, 11:32:49 AM
Was this in a ranked game?  What League are you in?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on February 11, 2013, 12:54:47 PM
Ranked placement match number 7
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 16, 2013, 03:42:35 PM
Gah, watching LoL competitive games is so frustrating.

Sometimes you can tell who's going to win right at the selection screen.

In this game AAA vs. GMB one team got a Shen, and the other team got Vi, Khazix, Caitlyn, and Lulu.  Now whether or not you want to argue that some of these champions are overpowered (don't know how you could deny that Khaz is overpowered) you have to admit that getting all of these champions gives your team a HUGE advantage.

Which is what makes watching competitive LoL so frustrating.  It seems like the team with the most overpowered champions wins, GG.  Only games which are undecided is when both sides have an equal amount of overpowered on each side.

And for the next patch, with heroes like Elise, Khazix, and Lulu running around, they want to nerf TARIC, XIN, and Amumu?  Holy crap Riot.  How they can continue to focus on the slightly broken champs and completely ignore the overwhelmingly overpowered champions is absolutely beyond me.

edit:  And the fact that it's 27 minutes into the game and there are 4 kills...zzz.  Seriously Riot, you've got to make this game more exciting to watch.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on February 16, 2013, 04:31:22 PM
But older champions are totally supposed to be viable next to newer ones! Like.. Yi. Yi is a really viable champion, right?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on February 17, 2013, 03:43:01 PM
I understand elo hell.

When my bot tower falls while I am supporting, and I have half the cs my carry does (I had 6) and I had the only kill and 1/4th the deaths, there is not much I can do.

EDIT: Also, welcome to league of warmongs
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 18, 2013, 02:55:51 PM
I understand elo hell.

When my bot tower falls while I am supporting, and I have half the cs my carry does (I had 6) and I had the only kill and 1/4th the deaths, there is not much I can do.

EDIT: Also, welcome to league of warmongs
And now you understand why I only duo-queue.  I'm now in Gold IV and rapidly advancing towards Plat.  This would take substantially longer if done solo.

They nerfed Warmog last patch, and they're nerfing it again next patch.

In all honestly I don't see why they reworked it this way in Season 3.  Such a one-size-fits-all defensive item that works on anybody is just retarded for the game. 

However in addition to the next upcoming nerf, they are buffing Blade of the Ruined King again, and this time I think it's going to become hands down overpowered.

My solution?  I just play Kogmaw in Ranked games and laugh.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 20, 2013, 05:31:15 AM
So I've subscribed to Sirlin's theory of "playing to win", and therefore have now sacrificed all self-respect in order to start playing Khazix, a champion which I find undeniably broken.

I think actually playing him has just reinforced the opinion I had before.  He is supposed to be a high risk/reward champion, except there's really not that much risk.  Even if you're losing in lane, which is hard to do considering how difficult you are to gank, and the fact that you can last hit well under a tower (something I take full advantage of), you can easily stay miles away from the enemy laner with your upgraded nuke and still farm decently.  Oh, did I mention that it also heals you for the damage done? Lol.

In battle with your huge-range jump, which from what I can tell is about 3x the range of Flash; you just jump in on a low target, kill them, then jump back out or ulti for the invis.  In pubs nobody every buys detection until way late, and even in my Khazix ranked games nobody bought any. 

Oh, his kit synergizes well enough, probably too well considering that he can do everything.  Before the fight I'm one of the best pokers in the game let's not forget.  Then during the fight my burst is also one of the highest in the game, especially for an AD burst, and especially considering I can just get away afterwards unlike someone such as Pantheon or Rengar.

Riot doesn't seem too concerned about the fact that there's only 1 best way to evolve his skills, which is W, E, R, in that order.  I thought the evolution mechanic was supposed to be cool and give you different options depending on the game?  Yet I've never seen or heard of any professional player, or any Khazix player in general, using any other evolution pattern than that.  Not to mention that his Q evolution is useless compared to the others.

So Riot here's the lesson to be learned:  Just because a champion's kit fits well together immaculately, does not automatically make them a good design.  There is also the factor of how said Champion actually affects the game, and interacts with other champions who have lesser kits.

Ironically, Khazix's entire theme emphasizes evolution, and in evolution, the strongest species survive.  Indeed.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on February 20, 2013, 04:14:15 PM
to be fair - look at udyr.

Despite nobody playing him, he has basically one skill order. max phoenix, then max turtle, take three in bear, then max tiger. rerwrerereewwqqqqq.

sure, he has that interesting theory that you can level three of his skills to 5, but like.. Its not ever useful.

And he has been this way for YEARS.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 20, 2013, 05:22:30 PM
max phoenix, then max turtle, take three in bear, then max tiger. rerwrerereewwqqqqq.
Is that onomatopoeia? ;)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on February 20, 2013, 08:11:19 PM
Sadly, its the sound of udyr getting kited by everyone in the game.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on February 20, 2013, 08:14:21 PM

My solution?  I just play Kogmaw in Ranked games and laugh.

I wish I had the same case. In my games, no one wants to be a tank, then gets mad that while I as kog cannot attack anyone more then once before attempting to kite because my front line is dead.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 21, 2013, 07:55:53 AM

My solution?  I just play Kogmaw in Ranked games and laugh.

I wish I had the same case. In my games, no one wants to be a tank, then gets mad that while I as kog cannot attack anyone more then once before attempting to kite because my front line is dead.
Yeah in Bronze IV, that's going to be a problem.

Whenever I play Kog I specifically ask my team to build peelers.  You need an Alistar/Chogath/Xin Zhao/Shen/Janna, etc. type lineup to really do well as Kogmaw.  That doesn't mean that you can't win without that, but it definitely helps.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3147839&highlight=wingflier

I made a guide for escaping Elo Hell.  Most of the time the game is won at champion select, so encourage your teammates to pick good counters and/or complement your own carry.  I'm sure you deserve a much better rating than that.  Unfortunately, Riot's MM system doesn't reward skill, it rewards playing the system.  It's much more about what happens before the game even starts.

In terms of Udyr, I disagree that his only build involves Phoenix.  In fact, of the times I've watched him used in pro streams, and in ranked games, Phoenix isn't even taken.  Phoenix is probably his worst stance.  It clears jungle quickly, but Udyr is a crap jungle now because he's so easily kited.  In top lane all you need are your first 3 stances.  Tiger is great for harass, Bear is good for the stun, and Turtle if you get engaged/ganked.  That's all you need.  Phoenix is just going to push the lane and make you extremely vulnerable to jungle ganks.  Tiger form does more damage in a shorter amount of time, while giving you a crapton of attack speed to boot.  With some good damage items like Triforce or Wits End, you can take full advantage of this.

I still think Udyr is viable in top lane, against certain teams.  He's much less viable now than he used to be with every new champion having some ridiculous escape mechanism which makes gap closing impossible (Ahri, Jayce, Khazix, Elise, Rengar).  The more champions they add with escape mechanisms, obviously the less useful Udyr becomes.  Having said that, he's really strong against many melee tops such as Jax, Irelia, and especially Lee Sin, who can't do ANYTHING to him (it's actually hilarious).  He plays a lot like a Nidalee top in that he just stays in the lane forever and split pushes.  If you try to stop him he just Bear/Turtle forms away, making him extremely hard to gank.  It gets to a point that successfully killing him becomes a huge resource investment that isn't worth the cost, so you just have to let him farm and push until he's huge.

Udyr, in addition to escape mechanisms, is also very susceptible to CC.  People are going to slow/stun/kite you all day long if they can.  This makes me wonder how Cleanse would work on him.  Typically Cleanse isn't that popular on bruisers but I'm not sure why.  Top lane is almost always against a bruiser, so you want to get Ninja Tabi instead of Mercury Treads.  Ninja Tabi are also much better lategame than are Mercury Treads, if you can find a way to make up for the lack of % CC Reduction.  With Cleanse you can go full tank build (including Ninja Tabi), and still be much harder to kite in a fight.  Sure, giving up Ignite means you might lose a few kills in the laning phase, but Ignite gets worse as the game goes on, Cleanse is ALWAYS useful.  I take Cleanse on Jax for this very reason, and I'm so much stronger lategame than if I had taken Ignite.

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 21, 2013, 08:32:53 AM
Also, more examples of Riot nerfing things which are not imbalanced, and only affect low-level play:  AP Tryndamere.  Have you seen him in competitive play recently?  No, because he's garbage.

So instead of asking players to get better, we'd rather nerf something that isn't imbalanced.  Way to go Riot.

It seems their standard for game balance is how something affects 800 Elo players.  Ironically, Khazix has a less than 50% win ratio there, so he must be balanced.  Right?  Right?!
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on February 21, 2013, 11:15:10 AM
The reason behind the AP Trynd change is covered by this guy on Reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/18xvun/next_patch_rip_ap_tryndamere/c8j0x6m) pretty well:

Quote from: pierce7d
Okay, I'll try to explain why this is necessary, and why Riot made this decision, and why I think it's a great decision.

Most champions in League of Legends use mana. Champions are balanced around the fact that when you cast an ability, you lose some mana, so that over time, you can no longer cast abilities (unless you restore your mana). This system keeps most champions in check from having overly exploitable abilities or mechanics.

Some champions are manaless. Energy champions work on a different system, but that system is still designed to keep those champions in check. The other resource that ALL champs have is HP. When you have a scenario where you can replenish a resource for free, indefinitely, either the ability will be underpowered, or broken (see, pre-nerf Rengar or Pre-nerf Soraka).

Tryndamere's problem is not that Riot doesn't want you to build him AP. It's that they put the fury system in place instead of a mana system. But by that token, you are supposed to acquire fury and then spend it accordingly. The previous ratio they had on Trynd was blatently overpowered. It might as well read, "This champion gains massive amounts of HP every 9 seconds". You could just change Q to "Passive: Increase HP Regen by 100/5" and it would be more balanced than AP Trynd's Q. He gets rewarded with massive amounts of free HP, for doing nothing at all. This type of gameplay is not only broken, but anti-fun. You should be rewarded for successfully playing through a risk. It's the same reason Soraka is considered the plague upon League of Legends. The champion is rewarded for a stalemate.

I like AP Tryndamere. I like that someone took the time to think out of the box. I like the fact that AP Trynd actually loses a LOT of lanes, but has a late game reward in his split push power, creating a viable strategy that does have counter-play. I like the way he works, the way he functions, the thrill of the split push. I like tons of stuff about AP Trynd, and I hope he doesn't get nerfed to unviability. However, I don't like when people get free wins because they exploit a broken and boring mechanic. And I don't mind when something gets used in a way that it wasn't originally intended. However, there is a big difference between "Oh, that's a creative way to use that champion" and "Oh, you're exploiting the fact that the game has been reworked and we've yet to balanced this previously underused champion around the new items."

With this new ratio, Tryndamere will still be able to heal, but he's actually going to have to gather fury to heal, as was intended for balance reasons. Just like it costs mana for other champions to use abilities, Tryndamere is supposed to be rewarded for gathering fury. In his current state, he could have all benefits from fury be removed, and he'd still be overpowered. AP is not supposed to replace fury, just like AP isn't supposed to replace mana. I do hope that the numbers Riot chooses are balanced and successful, and enable skilled Tryndamere players to find success when they outplay their opponents.

tl;dr Trynd doesn't cost mana so heal was overpowered. This nerf makes it so he has to use fury to heal effectively, since he is manaless.

For those who haven't heard about the change, they moved most of the AP ratio from the base amount to the amount healed by Fury consumed.  So instead of always getting 1.5xAP even when you have 0 Fury, you now get 0.2xAP without Fury, but 1.2xAP with max Fury.  As a result, you get 80% of the previous healing provided you are actually out there fighting.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 21, 2013, 04:20:39 PM
That guy's wall of text would be more applicable if not for the fact that AP Tryndamere's ratios have been like that FOREVER and nobody complained. As soon as one online streamer takes advantage of it, suddenly it's SO OP. It's also funny how matter-of-factly he portrayed Tryndamere's imbalance, WHEN, in fact, he's a low level pub stomper. Hasn't been seen in high Rank or competitive play because he's still garbage.

So what's the real problem? He's a noob stomper. Even with his current ratios his design is still 100% less broken than the likes of Khazix and Elise who are overpowered in competitive play, and have kits which can do EVERYTHING. Why won't Riot nerf those? It's not affecting pub noobs who don't even know how to play the champions.

Why Riot balances for 800 Elo, not 2800 is beyond me. Oh wait, 800 Elo is where all the money is. Now I understand.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on February 21, 2013, 04:50:36 PM
Just because something else is broken, doesn't mean they can't fix a problem.  Changing AP Trynd was pretty easy and required very little manpower.  Fixing Elise and Kha'zix probably require a lot more care if they don't want to actually just destroy them for competitive play.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 25, 2013, 12:45:09 PM
This seemed relevant: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/02/25/ ;)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 26, 2013, 08:48:00 AM
This seemed relevant: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/02/25/ ;)
That's pretty much what happens.  Though it's partly Riot's fault for catering to the stale lane setup instead of encouraging people to try something new.  In DotA there are dozens of different lane setups so nobody is going to rage at you if you don't do 2 bot, 1 mid, 1 top, jungler.  It would be quite easy for them to mix it up if they wanted to, but in a competitive MOBA/ARTS people are going to expect you to do what it takes to win, fun is tertiary ;p

There was a huge discussion yesterday on the forums about whether people (in Ranked) should be able to pick the lanes they want, or be assigned basically what's left, based on more or less player rating (so the higher the rating, the more roles available).  Now keep in mind this is Ranked, so of course the games are expected to be taken a lot more seriously than Normal games, but people were arguing on both sides about it.  Personally I agreed with the OP that if you can't play all 5 roles, and be flexible about what you will play, you shouldn't be playing Ranked.

edit:  Also you've got to realize, it is just a game, but it's a game in the same way that high school football is a game.  Yes, it's still amateur and kind of a joke compared to the NFL, but your team isn't going to let you play whatever role you want just because you're trying to "have fun".  A lot of people have spent a lot of money to make that happen, and everybody on the team has practiced quite a lot and they want to win.  Saying you want the quarterback role because "it's just a game" is not going to go over very well with your team.  If winning isn't your main concern, then perhaps League of Legends is just not the game for you.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on February 26, 2013, 10:50:55 AM
Expecting someone to be able to play all 5 roles competitively before playing ranked is ridiculous.  The people who might be able to pull it off are mostly at the Champion level.  Everyone else has at least one role they would be terrible at for the level of games they are queuing at.

What I'm waiting to see is a role-based queue.  That would be nice.  But it would entrench the meta even more, so I can understand why they don't want to do that.  So failing that:

* Give us a TOP/MID/BOT/JUNGLE buttons we can turn on/off to indicate our preferences (next to summoner spells).  Much easier to process what everyone can do visually than putting it together from chat.

* Let us pick champions at any time during the draft, but until it is our turn our picks are just to show our own team who we are thinking of playing.  Modify champion selected to hold the last 3 champions you clicked on, so you can display a small group to your team.

* Let us put champions into our own groups so we can find easier.  Because honestly, I jungle so rarely, whenever I do have to
jungle I can't remember who the heck I play jungle as.  A "folder" I could open that listed all the champs I like to jungle as would make me much more comfortable jumping into roles I don't play often.

* Let us swap positions with other players who haven't picked yet during the draft, instead of swapping champions.  This means YOU pick the champion you want, rather than working out some trade and comparing champions you own with some random stranger under time pressure.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 26, 2013, 12:41:35 PM
Quote
Expecting someone to be able to play all 5 roles competitively before playing ranked is ridiculous.
I don't think it's ridiculous, it means you have a good enough understanding of the game to perform well in Ranked.  That doesn't mean you have to be GOOD at all 5 roles, but you could at least be competent at them all.

Like for example if I say, "prefer mid, top, or adc", then my team can hopefully give me one of those roles.  But if I'm last pick, and I don't get one of the roles I called, should I just be unable to play the game completely then?  That sounds ridiculous to me.  What if everyone in the Ranked queue can only play 3 roles, and they all just happen to overlap?  Or what if you can only play 2 roles, and they happen to get taken?

I'm not saying you have to be EQUALLY GOOD at all 5 roles, but you should at least have a basic understanding of each, in the unfortunate scenario you get stuck with one.  I can't count the number of times on 2 hands players get stuck with roles they don't know how to do (like support).  It's not because the team was malicious or wasn't communicating, it just turned out that way, and the game often ends miserably.  Why is it any more the team's fault than the individual's fault for not having a basic understanding of each role before playing Ranked?

There is no good answer to that question.  You're not always going to get the role you want, or even the the top 3 roles you want, so if you can't play all 5, don't play.

But I agree with your suggestions.  I had even thought of a ranking system based on role.  For example you could queue up as a top, mid, jungler, etc., and your rating would be based on how well you do in that role, instead of how well you do in general, which may vary greatly from role to role.  However I came to the same conclusion you did, that it would stagnate the already entrenched metagame, and I for one would like to see a lot more variation than what we currently have.

I like the idea of the "role buttons" to make it more transparent to your team what you would prefer.  Though I still don't think it's an excuse to be incompetent at certain roles, but it might help your team provide you with the ones you excel at.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on February 26, 2013, 02:07:58 PM
I'm not saying incompetent, but competitive.  If you are a Gold player, you aren't going to play all 5 roles at the Gold level.  Maybe your Support is only Silver or even Bronze.  And I feel that's not unreasonable.  I got the impression you felt if I'm a Gold player, I should be able to play all roles at the Gold level, which is ridiculous.  I've seen very few pro players who can play every roll at Gold+.  Actually, I can't name a single one that could do all 5 at Gold (at a given time...some have swapped between all 5 over time).
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 26, 2013, 02:37:42 PM
No I didn't mean that. I just meant you can play every role in a pinch, even if you'd prefer something else.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: madcow on February 26, 2013, 06:31:47 PM
I feel the need to somewhat troll this thread by posting a PA comic from today, as it seems relevant to the conversation. (also the comic talk and following this thread might as well be greek to me)

http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/02/25
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on February 26, 2013, 07:19:07 PM
Poor madcow, you didn't read the page before this one did you?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: madcow on February 26, 2013, 07:37:18 PM
Poor madcow, you didn't read the page before this one did you?

Nope! Oops, a pretty big margin for a ninja too.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: eRe4s3r on February 26, 2013, 09:31:30 PM
Well the PA comment at least sums up why I don't play DOTA clones or dota 2 for that matter or Starcraft 2 (heh). It is work. It is actual, defined work. You have to learn, train, keep regulations and rules and business language in mind, work in a shuffled together team, and work together to achieve maximum result or lose. The only difference I can find to actual work is that these games don't pay you.

Which is really why I can't find any understanding why anyone would play these games. They are not anything you can play casually and have fun with. If you partake in even a single game you are joining a level of advanced and complex "competition" whether that's why you join or not.

I don't play a lot of games online when I think about it, exception and only exception is BF3. Where I am most of the time not competitive and just kinda drift along (still end up with most points, maybe even kills but certainly not always the best KDR and the most deaths of anyone, I like storming to surprise people). That's something you can never do in dota's .. you either commit to a complex "dance" complete with routine, or you fail.

However I find the communities these kind of games attract highly curious, because where as BF3 attracts a broad range of vile personalities 99% of the player-base is perfectly normal. Where as I feel that the high competition that dota clones and assorted automatically require from their players makes people act like this isn't just a casual game to have fun with but rather a full blown serious competition of a level you won't even find in most clan-matches in BF3. Hence why so many scandals revolve around the toxicity etc. Not to mention the time requirements of a single match.

Anyhow, please ignore my ramblings... just thought about that for some reason.

Ps.: With "casual" I mean "pick up and play without having to train"
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on February 27, 2013, 08:34:34 AM
On top level play I can see why one would get that impression.

But for LoL in particular, when you first start out, you are not against pros. It is very much simply pick up and play. You can send anyone anywhere for the most part, since the jungle doesn't even really exist (due to lack of runes and masteries).

And at every level of play, the bots in LoL on easy really are so. Even the moderate ones, while sometimes brilliant/frustrating, on the whole still results in win for the player.

Every game at some point can reach the point of competitive (real or pseudo), just as some point it can be considered pick up and play.


I'm not saying that at the top that it isn't toxic, or the top meta is very stale. I'm just saying part of LoL's deserved thrashings are in part because it throws many bones to new players and thus is considered "casual"
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: madcow on February 27, 2013, 09:31:02 AM
Your comment about certain games being work rings very true, and echoes my thoughts.

When Starcraft 2 came out I got it and loved the single player, but then I tried going multiplayer. I did alright, but found the sheer amount of things you need to do all at once, in real time, at a super speed is just mind boggling. It felt like work to play.  If that game went at about half speed it would be perfect heh, but its so fast paces with so little room for error it felt like work. And certainly wasn't relaxing!

I've not played any dota games, in part the complexity about the number of things to memorize and fear of that workness to it.  Not that I'm against complex games or the need for skill. I love them, but there's a line to me where it goes from fun and deeply nuanced, to just draining.

That's just me. And for some the above might be why they enjoy the game in the first place ;)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 27, 2013, 09:58:08 AM
On top level play I can see why one would get that impression.

But for LoL in particular, when you first start out, you are not against pros. It is very much simply pick up and play. You can send anyone anywhere for the most part, since the jungle doesn't even really exist (due to lack of runes and masteries).

And at every level of play, the bots in LoL on easy really are so. Even the moderate ones, while sometimes brilliant/frustrating, on the whole still results in win for the player.

Every game at some point can reach the point of competitive (real or pseudo), just as some point it can be considered pick up and play.


I'm not saying that at the top that it isn't toxic, or the top meta is very stale. I'm just saying part of LoL's deserved thrashings are in part because it throws many bones to new players and thus is considered "casual"
Well recent forum debates have shown that Riot refuses to take a stance on this issue, which is a major part of the problem.

They are in a pickle though. If they say anyone can play what they want to play every game, regardless of the consequences, it means opens the game up to massive amounts of unpunishable trolling and blatant non-teamwork.  If they say you HAVE to pick what your team says they need, you entrench the metagame even more and remove what makes the game fun for many people.

Personally I think they should make a compromise, at least in Summoner's Rift (not sure about the other modes). If the mode is blind pick, people can pick whatever they want. The very nature of blind pick is casual anyway. Without knowing what the other team picks, you open the game up to massive imbalances anyway with unintentional hero counters and lane setups. Not to mention most people already don't take it that seriously in my experience.

Alternatively, for the Draft Mode of either normals or ranked, they should make a lobby report feature which shows the conversation and picks/bans of each player. Now tribunal bans in this scenario shouldn't be based on whether everyone picks into the meta game, but whether they're communicating with their team. For example if someone picks an ADC when there is already an ADC and just says nothing, chances are they get in trouble. But if someone picks Xin as support, and says he wants to do a kill lane, that's a little more acceptable. Though maybe still not as acceptable if the entire team is telling him not to do it, and he does it anyway. Then goes into the game and feeds unmercifully. Lobby reports would be tied to game reports so something like that would be easy to see.

It's not a perfect system but it preserves both the casual and competitive aspects of the game to those concerned.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on February 27, 2013, 10:25:22 AM
I agree with all of that Winflier.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 27, 2013, 11:08:01 AM
I agree with all of that Winflier.
Agreement singularity collapse imminent.

Quote
It is work. It is actual, defined work. You have to learn, train, keep regulations and rules and business language in mind, work in a shuffled together team, and work together to achieve maximum result or lose. The only difference I can find to actual work is that these games don't pay you.

Which is really why I can't find any understanding why anyone would play these games.
Some people enjoy work :)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 27, 2013, 01:57:59 PM
It's like asking me to play Capper in Tribes. I can do it, but it sure as hell won't be pretty :P
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 27, 2013, 01:58:54 PM
It's like asking me to play Capper in Tribes. I can do it, but it sure as hell won't be pretty :P
We'll just give you a ricocheting spinfusor and the enemy team will keep a safe distance :)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on February 27, 2013, 03:07:06 PM
Honestly, I enjoye the sc2 multiplayer for the most part. Ultimately I had to quit because I took losses far too seriously.. which is something i actually liked initially. Turns out, when you are particularly hard on yourself, and its possible to COMPLETELY blame yourself for a loss because of obvious retrospective mistakes, it wears on you pretty quickly.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on February 27, 2013, 03:39:33 PM
I feel capper in Tribes is a harder role than any LoL role.  I cannot cap to save my life.  It is effectively an impossible role for me to fulfill.  No LoL role has the same level of skill and knowledge required.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 27, 2013, 04:42:16 PM
Honestly, I enjoye the sc2 multiplayer for the most part. Ultimately I had to quit because I took losses far too seriously.. which is something i actually liked initially. Turns out, when you are particularly hard on yourself, and its possible to COMPLETELY blame yourself for a loss because of obvious retrospective mistakes, it wears on you pretty quickly.
That actually says a lot about you.  That's one of the main reasons I play these kinds of games, because it helps me deal with my own insecurities.

For example, yesterday I went on about an 8-game losing streak.  Now all these games turned out similar enough.  I would do well, my team would usually do decently well (mostly because I was playing Eve mid and would gank constantly), and then lategame we would just throw it.  This happened OVER and OVER and OVER again.

In my final game of the night, I was 15-3, and we had just won a major team fight.  To celebrate this victory, our low health team (aside from MF, our ADC, who was full health) decided to go Baron because we had plenty of time.  Unfortunately we didn't have time to push because a couple were still alive and the rest would have been up too quickly, but we had plenty of time to Baron.

So we ping Baron eight thousand times, and the whole team heads over there.  What does MF do?  She pushes the lane, gets up the enemy tower, and promptly dies to the remaining members of the enemy team.  They take Baron and ultimately win the game.

So in essence, that MF just completely threw the game.  There was no rhyme or reason for this, it was just sheer stupidity and refusal to cooperate with your team.  A couple years ago I would have been so angry I would have been throwing things around my room (especially after a whole day of games like this).  As it was, I just called him and idiot, told him it was his fault we lost, and reported him.

There was a little rage, but it was contained, and it's much better than my rage say, a few months ago.  These games push my buttons, but it helps me deal with the consequences in a mature way, and ultimately makes me a better person I think.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 27, 2013, 04:45:16 PM
I find "losing is fun" games to be similarly helpful.  A character flaw I've commonly observed in myself is "being a quitter", and those help with that.  Still a ways to go on that, but oh well ;)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on February 27, 2013, 05:01:56 PM
For me, the only times losing hurts is not when we lose badly, but when the team just has poor chemistry and I find myself suffering the worst for it. My team starts to ridicule me, I am already frustrated and more prone to mistakes and their insults only make it worst. It causes a vicious spiral of the distracting insults causing mistakes, which fuels the cycle.

I simply ask my team when they start insulting if they ever they improve after the trash talk, and they say no, then continue the insults.

It's rare it actually happens to me since most of the time my armor is so thick I don't even respond, but sometimes like today I can't help it and that in turns only makes things worst.

Other then those times, which hurt because I know I could have at least done better if they had been quiet or actually helpful, I don't worry about losses.

EDIT:

And just to be clear on reflection, trash talk after the game is over is acceptable in all cases in my book. If the receiver doesn't want to hear it they can just leave the lobby.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: eRe4s3r on February 27, 2013, 05:27:17 PM
I quit AVWW2 over an (very cheap) instant death and never returned so far... so I guess that character flaw is there and strong ;) But it's also (imo) just a bad idea to have such things in a game anyway... I also definitely ragequit games over controls related issues.

I think that applies to a lot of people though. I haven't seen a single BF3 match where people didn't know when they were on the losing side and quitting. Because the team would lose regardless. Heck even I.. a considerably good BF3 team player, have 6% of ALL my matches logged as mid-game quits. Although I don't know what is a mid-game quit, I think hitting alt-f4 10 seconds before the spawn count reaches 0 counts ;P I have no qualms about any of them. Then again, people call me a cheater every 10th match or so. A great compliment to someone only playing casually every 2 or 3 days a few matches.

I find it "losing is fun" games to be neither games nor fun. AI War for example is definitely not a losing is fun game.. I only ever lost once there, most of my games just stagnate after a long save and abstinence because I swear.. it is impossible for me to resume a game in AI War that was paused for a week or 2.. like literally, It's often faster to restart a game than resume a save...

That said, I am very critical of games.... I guess you could say I tasted them all (yes, even old atari, NES and SNES games) so I have a reason to dislike certain things. Especially (take note) badly paced text dialog on screen (during gameplay). Never more than 2 sentences at once, is the rule.....

Anyway..

Is there any reason why in Post reply all the tag controls are MISSING? That's why I can't quote. Clicking on Insert quote also does *nothing*. (Chrome 25...)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 27, 2013, 06:03:27 PM
Not working for me either and using Firefox.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 28, 2013, 12:15:44 PM
So Eve is pretty strong.

(http://i.imgur.com/mNU7dGW.jpg)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on March 01, 2013, 01:41:23 AM
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3175129

Some really good changes.

I think the new Blade of the Ruined King is flat-out overpowered, which they didn't mention in the video, but I think they're REALLY trying to nerf the tanky, health-stacking metagame right now, and that's a surefire way to do it, at the cost of an item that everybody is basically forced to get (I know I'll be getting it on a large number of champions I play such as Jax, Irelia, and Kogmaw).
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on March 01, 2013, 11:54:52 AM
I'm liking the new Taric changes.

With my current builds, the changes makes his early game just a bit weaker, but in late game I hit a lot harder (relatively)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on March 01, 2013, 03:22:44 PM
I feel like the main problem with the blade changes is that it doesnt really fit into a traditional carry build.

It doesnt scale off crit, it doesnt provide crit, and it doesnt really provide tons of pure damage. It doesnt really look like a strong first item, because it lacks significant pure damage, it lacks a strong early onhit, and it doesnt really do.. much.

Dont get me wrong, as a second item its probably great. But what item do you get first?

Ie? i feel like youre wasting great deal of the crit, and spending a lot of money on it if you arent planning to go with a full crit build. Sure, you probably could IE/blade/pd? but that feels like too much ias.

bt? Maybe? Main problem i have with bt is that youre now spending tons of gold on lifesteal. Lifesteal atm is a pretty expensive stat..

I had this other thought though. What if I just got a bf sword, then built a blade? That sounds kinda stupid.. But with the recent nerfs to end tier items, it doesnt seem *that* bad. Still probably not ideal.

The final thought would be cleaver. There are synergies here, the physical damage, the armor shred (the armor shred stacking twice per auto), and the attackspeed. You even get some cdr and hp out of it. Its also however quite expensive for the stats it gives, and traditionally not the best carry item.

There are some other thoughts, like a zypher might be an interesting thought on an onhit based build, like kog or vayne?


Overall, i just feel this item is no longer a valid item to get in the early-mid game. If anything, its a better lategame pickup, but definately no longer an item you can rush on kog and get away with. On the other hand, it makes a GREAT xin or vi item(or *insert melee bruiser here*) possibly rivaling an early cleaver.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on March 01, 2013, 04:21:01 PM
If you gambled on your skill to get high cs without ad items, you would rush a to get hurricane / botlk. Gambling, of course, but no ad means it is more difficult to get last hits then you would otherwise.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on March 01, 2013, 08:42:16 PM
Hurricane isnt exactly the best ad item nowadays. Or even a particularly viable one i feel.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on March 01, 2013, 08:44:24 PM
Could pick up a few Dorans Blades in the process to make it easier? I usually do.

Though I still don't understand why you'd rush Hurricane.

Edit: OH, it applies ON HIT effects. Kogmaw BotRK Hurricane here I come!
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on March 01, 2013, 10:19:29 PM


Edit: OH, it applies ON HIT effects. Kogmaw BotRK Hurricane here I come!

It is very brutal, yes.


Get a BC just for kicks as well.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on March 01, 2013, 10:28:20 PM
Hurricane isnt exactly the best ad item nowadays. Or even a particularly viable one i feel.

As Wingflier said, its power is that it applies on hit effects both with its greater AS and through its passive orbs.. BotRK is the king of on hit items, so the two synchronize well.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on March 02, 2013, 10:10:14 AM
Hurricane isnt exactly the best ad item nowadays. Or even a particularly viable one i feel.

As Wingflier said, its power is that it applies on hit effects both with its greater AS and through its passive orbs.. BotRK is the king of on hit items, so the two synchronize well.
Though I hear there's a major problem, especially on Kog, in that the range of Runaan's passive effect is not very high, so that most of the time you (being Kogmaw) never actually use the passive effect because you're hitting them from too far away.  I must admit, this is a bummer, but I'll still have to try it and see.

I found out yesterday that any players in Gold IV and up are in the top 5% of all North American League of Legends players in Ranked.  I didn't realize the scale of was that skewed towards the bottom.  I guess I'm one of the top 5%.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on March 03, 2013, 12:12:09 AM
I honestly cant imagine the difference that would have to exist between bronze 5 and bronze 1.. hell, even the difference in single tiers must be huge.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on March 03, 2013, 01:18:05 PM
No offense, but if you have to shoot people as a capper, you are doing it wrong ;) (Aimed at Keith. For some reason the quote button didn't want to work)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 03, 2013, 02:43:44 PM
No offense, but if you have to shoot people as a capper, you are doing it wrong ;) (Aimed at Keith. For some reason the quote button didn't want to work)
Don't worry, I think forum posts ricochet.

And if a player does it wrong, but no one else is alive in the match, does it make a sound?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on March 04, 2013, 11:05:34 PM
I take back what I said about rushing blade. Currently its a first/second item, depending on if i went bloodthirster first.

For the moment, I dont really actually see much reason to go ie early anymore. Which is odd, because I used to be the one claiming ie was the only first item.

It uhm, might be a tad op at the moment.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on March 04, 2013, 11:14:15 PM
Oh really?  A tad OP?

It's so overpowered that they are literally about to put out a HOTFIX for it.  I can't even REMEMBER the last time Riot hotfixed ANY balance failure.  I remember when Xin Zhao was released, he was so godly broken that he made Xin Zhao of last patch look like Heimerdinger in his current state.  They still didn't nerf him until the next patch.

Literally all they're doing is increasing its cost by 350 gold, as if that's going to do anything at all.  They would have to increase the cost by 1,000 or more to even make a dent in how useful it is right now.

I was just reading the thread about how the designer in charge of this change said he didn't know this would happen.  I saw this from a mile away, that guy is an idiot.

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on March 04, 2013, 11:39:05 PM
I seem to recall hotfixes on riven and lee sin, but those arent amazingly recent. Not sure offhand if rengar got hotfixed or not. According to lolwiki, zyra received hotfix nerfs back in august. And before that mightve been shen.

Like I really didn't realize how strong the new cutlass would be more than anything else. Then so much more ias than it needs.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on March 05, 2013, 10:43:46 AM
LeBlanc was hotfixed the same day she was released.  I don't believe any champion was every as brokenly insane as her.

BoRK was good before the buff.  Why they buffed it without increases the cost in the first place I don't know.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 05, 2013, 10:57:14 AM
BoRK
Sometimes the acronym says it all (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sY_Yf4zz-yo#t=8s).
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on March 06, 2013, 12:45:19 PM
I can successfully confirm that Kogmaw with Blade of the Ruined King + Runaan's Hurricane is explosive diarrhea powerful.  Leading me to go 16-3 with him in my last Ranked game, and the deaths were only because our team was so far ahead that we started messing around.  It's possibly the only ADC in the game that you can skip building critical strike on completely and still do insanity amounts of damage.  In fact my third item was Randuin's Omen (to survive the BORK stacking on their team of course), and I still did plenty of damage to boot.

This was after the hotfix nerf btw, which seems to have done nothing to taper its power (as I predicted).  My friends and I have had so much fun with it that we've renamed the acronym to Blade of the Ruined Kog, or Blade of the Ruined League, which seems to make me laugh everytime I hear it.

Though, to put it in perspective, Blade may be taken by ~40% of all players right now, but Flash is taken by 92%, from what I've heard.  So as long as we're complaining about imbalanced things, let's focus on the reigning King huh :D
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 06, 2013, 12:49:36 PM
Maybe they just need to add a Flash-like active to BoRK.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on March 06, 2013, 12:52:17 PM
Nah, let's give BoRK the BKB (http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Black_King_Bar) active.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on March 06, 2013, 04:20:03 PM
Yeah, heros in dota build a gg branch nearly 100% of the time - It needs nerfing.
99% of the time a team will have a mek - It needs nerfing.
98% of the time a team will have a donkey - It needs nerfing .

See, that line of logic doesnt actually follow. 100% of the people in the game buy boots - Does that mean boots should get nerfed? (apparently riot thought so, because they nerfed them pretty damn hard)

And honestly, in its place, bkb is not actually that big of a deal. Sure, it is a pretty big deal, but it has things that counter it just as much as anything else. Heaven's halberd, abyssal blade, to name a few. I would really like some sort of magic immunity in league, because it would make my play as a carry a little bit easier. Believe me, knowing that your entire team just loses if you make one mistake is a big deal. And its not just being too aggressive - being too careful will also cost your team the game. That weight is actually a pretty big burden, when your only defense is a 300 range blink, that likely wont save you anyway.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on March 06, 2013, 06:39:17 PM
Quote
Yeah, heros in dota build a gg branch nearly 100% of the time - It needs nerfing.
Yeah, and then sell it back (or build it into something else).  Besides, the cost of the branch is literally equivalent to a potion in League of Legends.  Nowhere did I complain about people buying potions in my previous post, because it's a consumable.  For all intents and purposes, GG branches are a consumable.  Consumables have very little value past the early game.

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99% of the time a team will have a mek - It needs nerfing.
98% of the time a team will have a donkey - It needs nerfing .
See, that line of logic doesnt actually follow.
In this part you're either misrepresenting what I said accidentally or on purpose.

For example, I said that it's not uncommon to see 40% of people in a game to build BORK, so 40% is 4/10 people.  That's quite a bit.  Now Flash is 92%, so typically you'll see it on 9/10 people in a game, occasionally more.

You're now twisting my argument to say that because 2/10 people in a game buy a Mek and a Donkey (by using the word "team"), I'm calling it imbalanced.  I'm sorry, but if 20% of people in a game buy an item, it's probably not imbalanced, nor did I say it is.  You misrepresented my argument to make it look like that.

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100% of the people in the game buy boots - Does that mean boots should get nerfed? (apparently riot thought so, because they nerfed them pretty damn hard)
Now wait a minute, which boots are we talking about here?  There are lots of boots.  You can build Mercury Treads, Ninja Tabi, Gank Boots, Speed Boots, Bezerker Greaves, CDR Boots, etc.  Just because they all have the word "boots" attached to them, and all give movespeed, doesn't mean everyone is building the same thing.  If everyone in the game ONLY built Mercury Treads, then you would have an argument, and for a long time, Mercury Treads WERE the best boot by far.  Fortunately, they've been nerfed several times to the point that they're pretty balanced with the rest of them, so many different types of boots are used.

To say that all the boots can simply be categorized as the same item, is the same as saying that Randuin's Omen, Sunfire Cape, and Warmog's can all be categorized as the same item, because they all give health.  Yes, they give health, but they also do vastly different things in addition to that.

On the topic of BKB in DotA: 1. It isn't good on everybody, and not everybody builds it.  2. It gets worse everytime you use it, so it's a pretty poor investment in the long-term.  3. There are item counters to it as you said. 

It's a core item on carries the way that Infinity Edge is a core item in LoL, you may see 2/10-4/10 people building it every game.  Sometimes more, sometimes less, depending.  Seems relatively balanced, and it doesn't overpower the other options (such as Barrier Idol, Linken's, or Blademail) which do similar things in different ways.  The reason I take issue with Blade of the Ruined King in its current state is that it seems to overpower the other options, even on non-ADCs, and people who generally shouldn't even benefit from it (I've seen it on Eve and Pantheon for example).

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That weight is actually a pretty big burden, when your only defense is a 300 range blink, that likely wont save you anyway.
You're simply fooling yourself if you think this is the case.

Flash is used MUCH more to escape a gank than to secure a kill and that is a STATISTICAL FACT.  Maybe in lower-tier LoL where nobody has any map awareness, Flash won't save you from a gank, but in professional games, you literally have to burn Flash, most of the time, before you can even create a successful gank.  This is why you often see competitive League of Legends games that have 4 kills by 20 minutes; this is a very common occurrence.  Flash rewards bad positioning, this is why everybody takes it.  Without Flash, if you get caught, you're probably dead.  With Flash, if you get caught, your survival chances increase dramatically, especially if you have a tower near.  The fact that you have to gank a person twice in lane, once to burn Flash, then again to kill them, is absolutely ridiculous.  It is a mechanic that needs to be removed from the game, and the fact that 92% of people take it (and I'm not talking TEAMS here, I'm talking individual PLAYERS) is proof of that.  You give me another item or Summoner Spell in the game that is taken 92% of the time (and kept all game, not upgraded, sold, consumed, or turned into anything else) and I will shut up.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on March 06, 2013, 10:56:37 PM
The branch is literally the 8th most popular item in dota right now. And thats not even counting all of the branches that were built into things.

ANd yes, the point of my post was to point out how silly your argument was. Just because everyone uses it doesnt mean its op and needs nerfing. For the most part, there are 4 summoner spells - Flash. Ignite. Exhaust. Smite. You see like ~18 combined of these every game. Does that make them op? No, it really doesnt.

This is clearly how the game was intended to be played.

For comparison - Nearly every hero in dota builds power treads, arcane boots, or mana boots. You see about as many power treads as you do arcane and phase put together - Does that mean power treads are op? Or do I need to magically cross some other threshold (60%? 75%?)

And my point about flash was merely that during a teamfight, the reposition is fairly weak. If you were out of position enough to need it, you need to pop it nearly immediately (upon realizing how out of position you are, such that nothing can use their gap closers on top.). Even then, your enemy can just as easily use flash to get right back up to you. Dont get me wrong, its still useful, often moreso than ghost or barrier would be, but it is still likely not going to save you in a teamfight situation.

I would largely agree that in lane its often very strong, as relative distances matter a lot more (particularly with relation to the turrets, earlygame)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 07, 2013, 09:45:04 AM
ANd yes, the point of my post was to point out how silly your argument was. Just because everyone uses it doesnt mean its op and needs nerfing. For the most part, there are 4 summoner spells - Flash. Ignite. Exhaust. Smite. You see like ~18 combined of these every game. Does that make them op? No, it really doesnt.
Speaking from a designer's perspective, if I give you 2 slots in a given category and 10 choices of what to put in those two slots: if 6 of those choices are effectively never chosen by anyone in a large player population, then something is wrong.  The problem is not necessarily that the 4-often-chosen ones are OP, it may be that the other 6 are UP.  Or it could be a systematic psychological distortion among the player population (I think that's at least one factor in why flash is chosen so much).

At this point I wonder if they should try making flash consume both your summoner spell slots ;)  But I don't think that would really fix anything.  Though in some ways it's not a critical thing: effectively the game is "everyone gets 1 summoner spell, plus flash" and folks are still having fun.  It's more of a "there's room for improvement" thing to clean up those other spells that just don't get picked much at all.


Quote
For comparison - Nearly every hero in dota builds power treads, arcane boots, or mana boots. You see about as many power treads as you do arcane and phase put together - Does that mean power treads are op? Or do I need to magically cross some other threshold (60%? 75%?)
If I give you one slot in a given category and 6 options to fill it with, and one is picked 50% of the time, then it probably indicates that there is room for improvement in the design.  But there'd be more info needed: are there statistically-significant cases where each option is preferable?  Not every choice needs to be popular, but every choice needs to have some niche at least.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on March 07, 2013, 10:40:14 AM
In LoL it is the rest of the Summoners are UP.  Although Teleport is really more a difficult solo Q summon because of the team work required.  It is plenty strong in tournaments.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on March 07, 2013, 11:11:04 AM
Quote
For the most part, there are 4 summoner spells - Flash. Ignite. Exhaust. Smite. You see like ~18 combined of these every game. Does that make them op? No, it really doesnt.
I think it's an indication of bad design, yes.  I don't see why they can't start nerfing the 4 most popular ones, or buffing the others, until they are all used.  There's literally no excuse.

By the way, I see Barrier, Ghost, Cleanse, and Teleport quite a bit as well.  I think that Heal, Clairvoyance, and especially Clarity could be buffed.  I think Flash could be removed from the game or put onto an item the way Promote was.

Quote
For comparison - Nearly every hero in dota builds power treads, arcane boots, or mana boots. You see about as many power treads as you do arcane and phase put together - Does that mean power treads are op? Or do I need to magically cross some other threshold (60%? 75%?)
I think you meant to say phase boots and arcane boots?

Anyway, Tranquil Boots are typically only taken on carries anymore, the same way that Bezerker Greaves in LoL are usually only taken on carries.  Is anybody going to say that Bezerker's are UP because only carries take them?  I hope not.

According to this site, of the 4 boots, Treads are used about 50% of the time, and the other 4 boots compete for the rest.  I admit this is high BUT, you have to remember that Treads are the most versatile boot in the game.  Remember that Treads can be manually switched at any time, into 3 different stats.  So it might be intelligence for a caster or strength for an initiator etc.  The point is that even though it's the same item, it's value is very different for different types of heroes.  You could almost count the 3 different stat switches as 3 different items, which is why I'm not concerned that it's used so much.  http://dotabuff.com/items

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In LoL it is the rest of the Summoners are UP.  Although Teleport is really more a difficult solo Q summon because of the team work required.  It is plenty strong in tournaments.
I use Teleport a lot as a top lane in duo queue Ranked.  All you have to do is ask your teammates to put a ward in the back bush at bottom lane, and it's typically a free kill.  Also teleporting onto Dragon when they're trying to take it can completely turn the fight, or at least make them back off.  But yeah, I wouldn't use it in anything less than a ~1500 game and expect any sort of success I guess.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on March 07, 2013, 05:36:30 PM
The problem with taking teleport is that it means you arent taking a summonerspell that directly kills your opponent.

Taking exhaust or ignite can often be the difference in getting those early kills, which mean far too much in league.

And I honestly want flash to completely go away. Problem is that every bruiser nowadays, and half of the ad carries, have a gap closer, making flash required. I've experimented with taking ghost instead, but for the most part ghost cant replace flash unless I have a reliable escape.. And nothing really compares to am's blink.

If the game was 'choose one summonerspell and flash' instead of 'choose two between flash etc', would that really change anything? Well, it might reduce the dominance of exhaust junglers in the early game.. With things like teleport, it does largely require communication. People for some reason are not used to being able to actually react to a gank somewhere, but if I yell at people enough on voice they seem to react.

And yeah, power treads are indeed the common mans boots.. Just as flash is the common man's summonerspell.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on March 07, 2013, 06:50:00 PM
Quote
Taking exhaust or ignite can often be the difference in getting those early kills, which mean far too much in league.
I find just the opposite to be true.  Once the early game passes, Ignite's usefulness drops dramatically, outside of facing a few key champions such as Tryndamere, Swain, Volibear, Mundo, etc.  I would rather have Cleanse, on most Champions, which stays useful throughout the game, than Ignite, and get a couple more kills early on.  Not to mention that Cleanse counters Ignite, and has the same CD, making it even more superior in my opinion.

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Problem is that every bruiser nowadays, and half of the ad carries, have a gap closer, making flash required. I've experimented with taking ghost instead, but for the most part ghost cant replace flash unless I have a reliable escape.. And nothing really compares to am's blink.
It's actually just the opposite, I believe Flash helps people with a gap closer MORE than it helps those without.

Let me give you an example:  Everyone says Veigar is useless without Flash.  They say he would just die instantly without it.  Yet Flash is ALSO a great counter to Veigar.  Without Flash, even if Veigar misses his stun, as long as they are caught in the middle of the ring they have to stay there for the duration, or be stunned.  And even pseudo-blinks such as Grave's Dash or Jax's Leap will get stunned by hopping over the barrier.  Yet people with Flash can easily hop out of it.  Which means even if Veigar is PERFECT at landing his stuns, and always hits somebody, the people who he didn't hit, on the inside, can just Flash over and kill him, or Flash away.

Sure, Flash is also great for Veigar for getting away etc., but I think the buff to his stun would be tremendously more impactful than Flash's ability to help him escape every ~300 seconds.  Not to mention that if Flash were removed from the game, it would also increase his own survivability as well.

In terms of champions who have built in gap closers, there are typically already problems with these Champions anyway.  Elise, Khazix, and Jarvan, 3 Champions with screen-wide gap closers, are among the best Champions in the game, and all of them need nerfs IMO.  Ezrael, who was super powerful for a long time because of his powerful, built-in Flash, just got a pretty big nerf a few patches ago.  Plenty of Champions with crazy gap closers are already overpowered, and that's a separate issue, that the Summoner Spell Flash just mitigates.  If anything it would bring these problems into the light more clearly.

And before you go saying that pseudo-flashes are not what makes carries strong, listen to the opinion of one of the best ADCs in the world (some consider him the best ADC) who says that any ADC without a built-in escape (or massive range) is ABSOLUTE GARBAGE, and not worth playing in competitive play.  He also says that EZ's escape is what made him so good in the first place, because he has no clear weaknesses.  This is what I've been telling you all along.  Once again, this is a problem with the Champions themselves, not with Flash.  Though if anything, I think Champions like Varus and Draven would be much BETTER if Flash were removed, because you couldn't get away from them as easily.
http://www.gamespot.com/league-of-legends/videos/know-your-role-ad-carry-with-doublelift-lcs-week-3-6404372/

Quote
And yeah, power treads are indeed the common mans boots.. Just as flash is the common man's summonerspell.
Finally, Treads are taken on about 50% of everybody, and have 3 different abilities which are all significantly different, and apply to different heroes, almost like making it 3 different items.  Flash is taken on 92% of everybody, and is used the vast majority of the time to escape a mistake of bad positioning.  These two aren't even comparable.  For one thing, Treads aren't bad for the game.  They actually have the SLOWEST MS of all the boots, meaning a player who takes them has to have superior positioning than someone who doesn't, where Flash rewards bad positioning.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on March 07, 2013, 09:09:42 PM
Flash is taken 50% of the time its offered :p
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 07, 2013, 10:31:35 PM
Flash is taken 50% of the time its offered :p
I believe the contention is that it is taken significantly more often than that.

If you mean it only occupies 1 of the 2 slots for each player, then I'd say they'd probably put it in both slots if they could ;)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on March 07, 2013, 11:59:48 PM
If you mean it only occupies 1 of the 2 slots for each player, then I'd say they'd probably put it in both slots if they could ;)
Yep. That.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on June 05, 2013, 09:36:46 PM
Nothing THIS EPIC (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhH4NdB2JxE&hd=1) will EVER happen in LoL.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on June 19, 2013, 01:57:28 PM
DotA 2 has officially added smartcasting, for those who couldn't live without it.

Also, "announcer packs", which were added months ago (example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K5Rt4OCsyk)), now have a cool new feature: If anybody on your team has an announcer pack, everybody on the team can use it! The same goes for "UI skins", which change the UI theme of your game. If anybody has one in the game, anyone can use it.

Another cool feature is that spectator mode now includes polls. This means anybody using the spectator client to view a game can vote in interactive polls, whose results will be shown to everybody watching (even people watching over streams). This is a fun way to see viewer favorites and opinions about who will win a series. In addition, referees of the game are able to show interesting pieces of information which appear on the screen as well, good for learning more about certain players, heroes, or items, during inactive times of the game.

Valve has created an ingenius in-game item called "The International Compendium" (http://www.dota2.com/international/compendium/). Not only does it give you access to unique in-game content, but also allows you to vote against others to predict match outcomes and stats. It also gives you the ability to win free items while watching TI games. Finally, a portion of every Compendium purchase increases the overall tournament prize pool for the teams! So far, the tournament prize pool has almost doubled!

The game will be officially released sometime this summer.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Aklyon on June 19, 2013, 02:02:13 PM
So if its officially released soonish, what will happen to the infinity-1 amount of dota2 keys floating around?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on June 19, 2013, 02:04:17 PM
So if its officially released soonish, what will happen to the infinity-1 amount of dota2 keys floating around?
Probably something involving a massive sucking sound and a singularity swallowing lots of database servers.  Be prepared!  Don't be near any datacenters!
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: mrhanman on June 19, 2013, 02:13:15 PM
Another cool feature is that spectator mode now includes polls. This means anybody using the spectator client to view a game can vote in interactive polls, whose results will be shown to everybody watching (even people watching over streams). This is a fun way to see viewer favorites and opinions about who will win a series. In addition, referees of the game are able to show interesting pieces of information which appear on the screen as well, good for learning more about certain players, heroes, or items, during inactive times of the game.

This is a pretty cool new feature.  I tried to get into this game a while back, but I got seriously put off by the attitudes veterans have towards n00bs.  I still like to pop in every now and then to watch a match and try to figure out what's going on.  This seems like a genre I'd enjoy, if I can ever learn it.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on June 19, 2013, 03:39:08 PM
Another cool feature is that spectator mode now includes polls. This means anybody using the spectator client to view a game can vote in interactive polls, whose results will be shown to everybody watching (even people watching over streams). This is a fun way to see viewer favorites and opinions about who will win a series. In addition, referees of the game are able to show interesting pieces of information which appear on the screen as well, good for learning more about certain players, heroes, or items, during inactive times of the game.

This is a pretty cool new feature.  I tried to get into this game a while back, but I got seriously put off by the attitudes veterans have towards n00bs.  I still like to pop in every now and then to watch a match and try to figure out what's going on.  This seems like a genre I'd enjoy, if I can ever learn it.
I don't know when the last time you played was, but there are four options available now that may appeal to you:

-"Practice with bots" is a solo game in which the other 9 players are bots. You can choose the overall bot difficulty.
-"Find a co-op bot match" is similar to the last option, except all people on your team are human players. Generally people are a lot more forgiving in this mode.
-"Find a match solo" is a new feature which queues you only with and against other solo players. This is nice because individual players are typically much nicer than teams, who get pissed off when their "randoms" aren't as good as they are.
-"Least played mode" is a new matchmaking setting which forces people to pick heroes that they don't often play. It says: "This mode is great for learning new heroes since everyone will be on equal footing".

In addition, the bots have 5 different difficulty settings, so there should be something in there for everybody to enjoy.

They're also adding a new "mentor" mode soon, I'm not sure exactly how it will work. In HoN, the mentor played with the "student", but had a little "miniscreen" of his disciple's view, so he could instruct him while trying to help him. Overall it will probably be a neat feature once they finish it.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on June 19, 2013, 04:20:45 PM
Also, of note: http://blog.dota2.com/2013/05/communication-reports/

Very interesting way of dealing with verbally abusive people...remove their voice :D
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on July 02, 2013, 03:04:32 PM
Just Awesome (http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/06/29/dnp-meet-the-dota-2-item-creators/?ns_campaign=article-feed&ns_mchannel=ref&ns_source=steam&ns_linkname=0&ns_fee=0).
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: RCIX on July 06, 2013, 08:16:14 AM
DotA 2 has officially added smartcasting, for those who couldn't live without it.

Oh hey, welcome to 2009.

Sorry, couldn't resist =p I look forward to seeing any ground they gain in the UI department from the change-phobic fanbase.

In general, I stopped caring about Dota vs League when i realized, hey, League has maps and modes and Dota doesn't. When Dota comes out with a Dominion mode, ill be interested. Till then...
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on July 16, 2013, 03:40:06 PM
DotA 2 has officially added smartcasting, for those who couldn't live without it.

Oh hey, welcome to 2009.
Well, Riot can welcome to 2013 when they add the ability to resell items for full price that you buy accidentally, or when they add different announcers to the game, or when they add custom HUD skins that you can share with anyone on your team, or when they add the ability to draw on the minimap to give your team specific travel routes, or the ability to pause the game when somebody inevitably disconnects or a personal emergency arises among 10 people in an often hour+ game. Or when they make a model which allows full access to the entire hero pool so that people with more money or FotM champions don't have a huge advantage. Heck, they can welcome to 2006 when they add VOIP to their game ;p

Sure, LoL has new maps and modes (well technically DotA has many modes: AR, AP, RD, CM, SD, LH, LP). However, DotA 2 adds new maps for big holiday events, like Diretide (http://www.dota2.com/diretide/) or Greevling (http://www.dota2.com/greeviling/). You've got to realize that DotA was in originally in development on the WC3 Engine, in which it wasn't possible to do things like add new maps to the existing one, without making an entirely new map with the map editor, along with all the same information used in the old one (perfected over about 10 years of work). Not to mention something like that would have probably split the community, which isn't something you want when your all-to-quaint platform was the unreliable WC3 custom games system. I'm sure DotA will have a permanent “new map” within a year or so, though it will probably just be for fun, and not generally taken seriously competitively the same as with the other LoL maps.

In terms of change-phobia, I think the DotA community is a lot better than LoL's tbh. Sure, they'll add new maps and such, but that doesn't really impact the core gameplay of the main map whatsoever. Adding new maps/modes to the game actually isn't necessarily a product of change at all, because using them is completely optional, it doesn't negatively affects the maps and modes already there. A significant change is, for example, altering some core aspect of the gameplay that has far-reaching implications on the way the game must be played. To my knowledge, LoL has been out for 3 years, and this has never happened; not like it has in DotA.

I'll give you a shining example: Flash. Everybody knows there is a problem with Flash. There has been a problem with Flash since basically day one. It's the most taken Summoner Spell by far. Every game, 90% or more players take it, and it would be silly not to. Even after countless nerfs, it is still in the game, and still the best Summoner Spell hands down. In DotA, there was a very similar crisis with an item called “Blink Dagger”. It basically gave the same ability as Flash, albeit it costed money, took up an inventory slot, and was on a lower cooldown. Over time, it became the most overpowered item in the game. It was basically bought on every single hero in competitive play, every single game (sound familiar?). It was the only truly uncounterable item that existed in the game. Ohhh suree, you had the same arguments you do now: “If Blink Dagger is overpowered, why not just buy your own Blink Dagger?” But pointing out the logical flaws in this line of thinking were quite easy. Even the pro players were complaining to IceFrog about how overpowered the item was, and eventually he changed the item completely. It had a new effect: If the hero takes damage, BD becomes unusable for 3 seconds. This immediately made it counterable. It was now much harder to use to escape, though it still kept most of its value as an initiation tool. There were some items in the game, such as Radiance, a huge, passive, aoe burning effect, which were great against it because any hero who owned a Radiance could disable enemy blinks in a large range. Some heroes like Zeus or Spectre could cancel initiations with their ability to damage an enemy mapwide, thus disabling Blink.

This suggestion has been brought up to the Riot team MANY times. Their excuse? “It's too COMPLICATED!” Yes, it is much too complicated to understand that when you take damage, a summoner spell because inactive for a few seconds. Man, they must really have a low opinion of their playerbase's intelligence.

So here's another good example: Turtling became too good in DotA, and the games just became boring farmfests because wards were so cheap and infinite, and the two teams could just put them everywhere and having huge advanced warning of incoming gank attempts. So what did IceFrog do? He took away vision of the blue (vision wards). He made it so that they were only used to counter invis, not give vision themselves. Still, it did not prevent the game from being a farm/turtle fest.

So then what did he do? He limited the observer wards (sight wards) to 4, with a 6 minute cooldown on each purchase. This made it so that map vision became much more limited, and the player/team had to be much more careful about when and where he placed his wards. This also meant counter-warding became even more practical than before.

But that didn't work either, the game was STILL too much of a farm-fest. So what did he do? He added an item called “Smoke”, which basically makes an entire team invisible for 60 seconds, and move 15% faster, until they come within a certain range of an enemy hero or tower. This bypasses regular ward vision completely and allows gank opportunities that simply weren't possible before. Can you imagine if an item like this were added to LoL? How drastically would it change the game?

There are countless examples of huge changes like this to the core DotA gameplay. Even certain heroes like Wisp who can teleport with an allied champion anywhere on the map (So the old TF ult, but better), Slark, who can continue to attack whole remaining invisible, or Omniknight, who makes an entire team invulnerable to physical damage for 7 seconds etc. are much more game-changing, in themselves, than any champion LoL has ever added, which typically just use recycled skillsets in different ways because they've run out of things to do, and are unwilling to try anything new.

Sure, LoL has had some (much-needed) item reworks, and a few new Summoner Spells here and there, but none of it has been anywhere closed to as game-changing as the DotA alterations. To my knowledge, no change Riot has implemented into the game has, for example, changed the most popular lane setup for the past 2 years, while in DotA, the lane metagame is much more diverse, and constantly changing.

So it's kind of ironic when I hear a LoL player calling DotA players “change-phobic”, when I would say, if anything, the opposite is true.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on July 16, 2013, 04:17:17 PM
tl;dr
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Aklyon on July 16, 2013, 04:45:02 PM
tl;dr
tldr: Dota 2 changes in far more significant ways than LoL, even though it takes its time adding things like smartcasting. LoL hardly ever changes anything too drastically, to the point where one skill remains the always-pick ever since day one.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on July 16, 2013, 04:59:50 PM
tl;dr
tldr: Dota 2 changes in far more significant ways than LoL, even though it takes its time adding things like smartcasting. LoL hardly ever changes anything too drastically, to the point where one skill remains the always-pick ever since day one.
Tl;dr Chemical Art is butthurt and doesn't have any good arguments so he acts immature instead and insults his own reading and/or patience capabilities.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on July 16, 2013, 05:09:00 PM
tl;dr
tldr: Dota 2 changes in far more significant ways than LoL, even though it takes its time adding things like smartcasting. LoL hardly ever changes anything too drastically, to the point where one skill remains the always-pick ever since day one.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on July 16, 2013, 05:19:26 PM
tl;dr
tldr: Dota 2 changes in far more significant ways than LoL, even though it takes its time adding things like smartcasting. LoL hardly ever changes anything too drastically, to the point where one skill remains the always-pick ever since day one.
Tl;dr Chemical Art is butthurt and doesn't have any good arguments so he acts immature instead and insults his own reading and/or patience capabilities.

 ???
I used the term in the traditional sense, that the message was too wordy for me to read, and if someone would put the core message in a shorter method I would read it. If you feel the nesd to attack me directly because of some percieved flaw that is your issue, not mine.

When stated in a lot less words, the argument that dota is somehow behind the times when it has so many features that lol does not seems silly.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on July 16, 2013, 09:49:15 PM
Nothing but tea and crumpets, here.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on September 21, 2013, 09:48:38 PM
DotA 2 gets LAN support, a new mode, and the GladOS announcer pack (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/09/21/bloody-wonderful-dota-2-getting-lan-support-glados/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rockpapershotgun%2Fsteam+%28Rock%2C+Paper%2C+Shotgun%3A+Steam+RSS%29).
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Aklyon on September 21, 2013, 11:20:43 PM
Woo, lan support. That is a good feature for something related to tournaments.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on September 22, 2013, 11:20:10 AM
One can never go wrong with more LAN support.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on November 19, 2013, 10:38:10 PM
DotA 2 gets in-game coaching, lane picker, item-crafting, and 2 new heroes. (http://www.dota2.com/threespirits)

In-game coaching is where you can add a 6th member (to your 5 member party) to watch the game from your team's perspective, provide constructive advice, and help the "student" learn the game. The coach has the ability privately speak to each student through voice chat, as well as ping the map and draw lines on the screen for the team.

Lane picker is amazing. It opens a minimap during the hero selection phase which each team member can click on, showing the other teammates which lane and hero they plan to take into the game. In this way, lane and role picking is much clearer and more understandable than before, and there's little distraction about where each person is going. This may not sound so amazing if you've never played DotA, but the lane possibilities are so diverse that increasing communication between teammates in a clear, visible way is extremely important.

Both the new heroes are really cool. The update is labeled "the 3 spirit update". While all 3 spirits (storm, fire, and earth) have major similarities between them (such as their reliance on magic damage, use of remnants, and fast/evasive playstyle), they all fill completely different roles. One is an agility carry and a mage killer, one is a intelligence mid and a ganker, and the last is a strength tank and a powerful initiator. Very cool.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on November 20, 2013, 01:30:49 AM
'agility carry' not exactly

xin isnt going to carry anything, not against a real carry. I've seen him more played as a early game ganker who can transition into spamming slight of fists in fight, like kunkka.. but isnt going to carry
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on November 20, 2013, 03:55:46 AM
I'm not sure why you're bringing Xin into the discussion about Ember Spirit, considering that the agility attribute doesn't exist in League of Legends.

Maybe you weren't aware that there are heroes who are classified as "mid-game carries" in DotA. Shadow Fiend is a good example. Really, his carry potential doesn't even hold a candle to someone like Faceless Void, Spectre, or Gyrocopter lategame, but this doesn't mean that his physical damage during the time which he shines is ignorable. Priestess of the Moon also falls into this category as well. Even though she kind of pales in comparison to some of the dedicated, lategame hard carries, that isn't to say that she doesn't have carry potential during the mid and early late-game. These types of carries are typically referred to as "soft carries" or "semi-carries".

I would consider Ember Spirit a semi-carry on the level of someone such as Shadow Fiend or PotM. There is a certain moment in the game where he shines before he falls off and gives way to harder carries.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on November 20, 2013, 03:01:53 PM
xin is ember spirit's name.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on November 20, 2013, 07:15:16 PM
xin is ember spirit's name.
I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for clarifying.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on November 21, 2013, 03:04:29 PM
I'm not going to trawl through 16 pages of fanboyism and vitriol, but I'm curious if you ever mentioned Smite in any of your discussions here? It's a MOBA, after all, and a pretty damn good one at that.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Aklyon on November 21, 2013, 03:38:51 PM
Search box atop the page gives only a quartet about the spell Smite. If it missed something, I'm not interested enough in the thread to go looking either.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on November 21, 2013, 04:26:16 PM
i played smite a little bit with the intent to seriously play it, but I always ended up with issues. Gold distribution was really dumb (an ally in your lane ALWAYS halved your gold income, regardless of lasthit), jungle was seriously retarded, and in general casters were very strong. In general the feel of the game didn't really seem like something i was interested in, and it was difficult for me to actually enjoy it.

I didn't really take the time to seriously play it, because my graphics card died and it took me almost a month to get a real replacement, and after that I had just kinda given up on it.


As for this thread, I dont think there was any real discussion of it.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on November 21, 2013, 05:14:48 PM
I'm not going to trawl through 16 pages of fanboyism and vitriol, but I'm curious if you ever mentioned Smite in any of your discussions here? It's a MOBA, after all, and a pretty damn good one at that.
Actually most the thread has been pretty honest discussion without vitriol if you care to look at it. I was thinking about making a new one about the changes to LoL Season 4, and you could mention Smite there.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on November 21, 2013, 08:04:29 PM
i played smite a little bit with the intent to seriously play it, but I always ended up with issues. Gold distribution was really dumb (an ally in your lane ALWAYS halved your gold income, regardless of lasthit), jungle was seriously retarded, and in general casters were very strong. In general the feel of the game didn't really seem like something i was interested in, and it was difficult for me to actually enjoy it.

I didn't really take the time to seriously play it, because my graphics card died and it took me almost a month to get a real replacement, and after that I had just kinda given up on it.


As for this thread, I dont think there was any real discussion of it.


I dunno when you tried it, but they've changed *alot* recently.  Such as the entire damn map, for instance.  This is one of those developers that is not at all afraid to dive in and make even drastic changes.... frankly I wish the others were more like that at times.

As for the gold thing, never had a problem like that. 


And the new Dota update sure is interesting.... havent had a go at it yet myself.   The lane picker sure sounds like a good thing though.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Lancefighter on November 22, 2013, 02:59:08 AM
Want to say it was around april.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on November 22, 2013, 08:41:39 AM
I wasn't really going to discuss Smite as such here, I was mostly curious whether it had been mentioned at all, or it if it was mostly Lol vs Dota ;) But thanks for the replies!
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on November 22, 2013, 09:14:54 AM
Want to say it was around april.

Yeah, that was well before the map change, as well as a number of other major changes.

Pretty sure that was before they added branching item paths, and I *think* that was before they started revamping certain gods.   And of course there's been a bunch of new ones added since.  Also fairly certain that was before the ARAM mode was added.

Casters arent stupidly powerful anymore either.  Though there was a period where junglers had a bit too much of an advantage too, I *think* that's been dealt with now.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on November 22, 2013, 10:43:19 AM
Want to say it was around april.

Yeah, that was well before the map change, as well as a number of other major changes.

Pretty sure that was before they added branching item paths, and I *think* that was before they started revamping certain gods.   And of course there's been a bunch of new ones added since.  Also fairly certain that was before the ARAM mode was added.

Casters arent stupidly powerful anymore either.  Though there was a period where junglers had a bit too much of an advantage too, I *think* that's been dealt with now.
Yeah, map is redone, ARAM was added (and revamped), tiered items and tiered actives were added, several gods redone and jungling was nerfed, but still viable.
 
Anyways, when it comes to gods (champions) in Smite, they pretty much very strongly adhere to their class. Mages are basically bursty, high damage type characters with some range. They are squishy as balls and if you dodge/counter their abilities they are basically useless. Often highly susceptible to CC and have trouble with high magical protection tanks. Some are more leaned against midlane (good minion clear and sustain) while others are more assassin-like (high burst damage, good mobility and limited CC).
 
Assassins are most often melee type physical fighters (there are a few exceptions). They excel at ganks, do absolutely absurd damage and often have very high sustainable DPS, compared to mages who basically drop a nuke on your face but have pretty poor followups. Assassins are just as squishy as mages, and tend to have an absolutely HORRIBLE early game with limited minion clear, low damage and very poor sustain/survivability. They are essentially snowball characters that, once they get rolling, they become a huge threat to the enemy team. Often focused in team fights.
 
Bruisers are something inbetween a tank and an assassin. Not as absurdly damage-focused as assassins, but often have self heals and self-protection abilities to provide better staying power in a lane.
 
Tanks are...well, tanks. Focusing either on enabling ganks and supporting team fights with disruption, peel or CC. Extremely high survivability.
 
So, as much as I rave on and on about how a certain god is "easy to play", "stupidly overpowered" etc, that's mostly just frustration speaking. Every god have counters and gods are primarily balanced for Conquest (classic MOBA) gameplay, not 1v1 or Arena. Some gods, like Freya, absolutely DESTROY people in 1v1, leading to most people thinking she's overpowered as hell.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: tigersfan on November 22, 2013, 10:50:52 AM
Want to say it was around april.

Yeah, that was well before the map change, as well as a number of other major changes.

Pretty sure that was before they added branching item paths, and I *think* that was before they started revamping certain gods.   And of course there's been a bunch of new ones added since.  Also fairly certain that was before the ARAM mode was added.

Casters arent stupidly powerful anymore either.  Though there was a period where junglers had a bit too much of an advantage too, I *think* that's been dealt with now.
Yeah, map is redone, ARAM was added (and revamped), tiered items and tiered actives were added, several gods redone and jungling was nerfed, but still viable.
 
Anyways, when it comes to gods (champions) in Smite, they pretty much very strongly adhere to their class. Mages are basically bursty, high damage type characters with some range. They are squishy as balls and if you dodge/counter their abilities they are basically useless. Often highly susceptible to CC and have trouble with high magical protection tanks. Some are more leaned against midlane (good minion clear and sustain) while others are more assassin-like (high burst damage, good mobility and limited CC).
 
Assassins are most often melee type physical fighters (there are a few exceptions). They excel at ganks, do absolutely absurd damage and often have very high sustainable DPS, compared to mages who basically drop a nuke on your face but have pretty poor followups. Assassins are just as squishy as mages, and tend to have an absolutely HORRIBLE early game with limited minion clear, low damage and very poor sustain/survivability. They are essentially snowball characters that, once they get rolling, they become a huge threat to the enemy team. Often focused in team fights.
 
Bruisers are something inbetween a tank and an assassin. Not as absurdly damage-focused as assassins, but often have self heals and self-protection abilities to provide better staying power in a lane.
 
Tanks are...well, tanks. Focusing either on enabling ganks and supporting team fights with disruption, peel or CC. Extremely high survivability.
 
So, as much as I rave on and on about how a certain god is "easy to play", "stupidly overpowered" etc, that's mostly just frustration speaking. Every god have counters and gods are primarily balanced for Conquest (classic MOBA) gameplay, not 1v1 or Arena. Some gods, like Freya, absolutely DESTROY people in 1v1, leading to most people thinking she's overpowered as hell.

I've never been against a freya 1v1, but, that doesn't sound fun. But a Freya in conquest is useful but not an auto-win by any means.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on November 22, 2013, 11:22:57 AM
I've never been against a freya 1v1, but, that doesn't sound fun. But a Freya in conquest is useful but not an auto-win by any means.
Freya is an assassin with pretty much one thing on her mind: To destroy the opposition in the least amount of time. If you allow her to activate her 1 and 2 and actually hit you, you are dead. In the extremely rare case that you are not dead, she pops her ult and THEN you die.
 
In a team fight where people actually cooperate, she's not that much of a threat since you can bait out here two and swarm her when it's down. Or if you "know how to play", you'll try not run away from her when she ults, but instead run in UNDER her, where she can't target you. Then you proceed to eat her face when she lands :P

But for someone who doesn't really know how to counter her, or you indeed meet her in 1v1 joust...you're pretty much boned. She WILL devour your soul.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Aklyon on November 22, 2013, 01:49:05 PM
Dueling a norse goddess sounded like a bad idea as-is, you're just making it sound worse :)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on November 22, 2013, 04:19:03 PM
I've never been against a freya 1v1, but, that doesn't sound fun. But a Freya in conquest is useful but not an auto-win by any means.
Freya is an assassin with pretty much one thing on her mind: To destroy the opposition in the least amount of time. If you allow her to activate her 1 and 2 and actually hit you, you are dead. In the extremely rare case that you are not dead, she pops her ult and THEN you die.
 
In a team fight where people actually cooperate, she's not that much of a threat since you can bait out here two and swarm her when it's down. Or if you "know how to play", you'll try not run away from her when she ults, but instead run in UNDER her, where she can't target you. Then you proceed to eat her face when she lands :P

But for someone who doesn't really know how to counter her, or you indeed meet her in 1v1 joust...you're pretty much boned. She WILL devour your soul.
I can see how, even given the absurd nature of her ability to kill anybody ever 1v1, she would still be balanced.

In DotA Troll Warlord was, for a long time, the most insane 1v1 hero in the game. Yet he was never played because despite his ability to lock somebody down completely for an infinite amount of time (and kill them), his team fight presence and ganking ability were both pretty lackluster. Spirit Breaker and Huskar also fell under this category for quite a long time as well. Even though they were absolute monsters in 1v1 combat, and decent pubstompers, good teams in competitive play just stuck together and shut them down.

Changes to all 3 of these heroes to make them more "team-oriented" have, over a long period of time, made them viable; but it just goes to show how heavily these games favor teamplay over 1v1 dominance.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: tigersfan on November 22, 2013, 10:42:01 PM
Freya isn't a slouch in team fights, but she's not unstoppable either.

Actually, the ability of hers that Fox didn't mention (her banish) might arguably be one of her best team fight abilities. It basically just lifts another player and takes them out of the fight for a few seconds. It doesn't do any damage, but, it stops them from doing any either.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on November 23, 2013, 10:13:15 PM
Freya isn't a slouch in team fights, but she's not unstoppable either.

Actually, the ability of hers that Fox didn't mention (her banish) might arguably be one of her best team fight abilities. It basically just lifts another player and takes them out of the fight for a few seconds. It doesn't do any damage, but, it stops them from doing any either.
It also makes them immune to any new sources of damage. A bad Banish can be the worst thing to ever happen in a teamfight :P I've Had SO many Ao Kuang ults dodged just because a friendly Freya thought it was a great time to Banish half the enemy team :P
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on December 20, 2013, 01:46:11 PM
I just got reading this thread and you were discussing how to deny farm for carries in LoL and Dota. Now, I haven't played those two anywhere NEAR enough to actually speak about them, so I'll just tell you how Smite does it.
 
In Smite, last hitting isn't the end all be all of farming. Last hitting does provide you with extra gold, but the gold spooling is high enough that you can stay competitive even if you don't last hit all the time. You cannot deny creeps.
 
So, to deny someone farm in Smite, you have to either win your lane (push them back to their tower by having better poke/harass or better clear than them) or kill the carry. If you have a good support with you, that it very possible at all stages of the game. Carries are incredibly squishy and very vulnerable to CC. For instance, Sobek (tank) can use Charge Prey which is a dash that ends up flinging his target (provided he hits) back to where he started his dash. If he's laned up with say Artemis (ranged Carry), she can then drop a trap (root) at the location, leading to their carry being way out of position AND rooted long enough to bursted down by Artemis. Even better if the carry poked anyone of them and also has minion aggro.
 
Now, the thing is that the only way to deny farm is to push your enemy out of the lane, either by killing them (forcing them to respawn and run/teleport back) or by pushing them back inside their tower perimeter. If a minion gets hit by a tower (hit, not killed) NO ONE will get gold from it. Ever. So if you force your opponent inside his turret area, he is forced to lose gold from the tower hits.
 
That's how SMITE works, and I feel it's rather elegant. It puts more focus on actual lane brawling, poking and harassing, rather than playing "Farmville" with minions. Of course you have to farm, naturally, but it's less dominant than say LoL or DotA where lasthitting is pretty much mandatory and you should STFU and GTFO if you can't lasthit :P
 
Incidently, it's that huge focus on lasthitting and denying , in combination with the controls and perspective, that makes me unable to enjoy LoL and DotA.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on December 20, 2013, 07:36:21 PM
That's how SMITE works, and I feel it's rather elegant. It puts more focus on actual lane brawling, poking and harassing, rather than playing "Farmville" with minions. Of course you have to farm, naturally, but it's less dominant than say LoL or DotA where lasthitting is pretty much mandatory and you should STFU and GTFO if you can't lasthit :P
 
Incidently, it's that huge focus on lasthitting and denying , in combination with the controls and perspective, that makes me unable to enjoy LoL and DotA.


That one's more a problem with Dota than LoL, really.

LoL is pretty similar to Smite in terms of how the whole laning phase ends up feeling.  There's alot of back and forth poking/brawling between you and your lane opponent, in addition to having to farm at the same time, so there's constant excitement.  In addition, you can use skills to farm, and some skills are sorta designed around being used that way even.  And the last-hitting isnt super finnicky like it is in Dota.

Dota's big problem is that the focus on it is a bit too extreme.  The laning phase most of the time is ENTIRELY last-hitting, with little else going on unless a gank attempt happens.  You last hit one creep at a time... ALWAYS only one creep at a time.... and you have to keep this up, because you need a bazillion gold and this is the primary way to get it, you get none if you do not last hit correctly.  There's also the screwy way Dota handles mana balancing.... in pretty much every other moba, you can fire off spells/skills/whatever pretty frequently, just like how you might use special moves in a fighting game.  But in Dota, firing off just ONE can eat 60% of your mana in one go.  So you fire these very infrequently, and using them to farm is downright pointless, it'll only get you killed faster.   So there's little in the way of back-and-forth between you and your lane opponent;  you only strike if you're certain you can get a kill on them right then and there.  So yeah... it's a bit dull compared to the others.   There's also the bizarre fact that Dota... for all of it's proclaimed complexity and difficulty versus LoL and the others.... has an almost complete lack of skillshots in the game;  so most (almost all) spells cannot be dodged once fired.   I like Dota 2 well enough, but this aspect of it IS pretty loopy.

LoL and Smite both do it very well enough, constant brawling and chaos between lane opponents.   I'm finding that Dawngate is doing this one very well also, though I still have much to learn there.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on December 21, 2013, 07:43:42 PM
Yay, this thread is active again! <3

Before I begin my response I have to convey that I know almost absolutely nothing about SMITE. I've played thousands of games of HoN, LoL, and DotA, so those are the only 3 ARTS/MOBAs that I can fairly comment on.

In terms of the LoL laning phase being ideal, I'm afraid I'm going to have to heavily disagree there. The laning phase in LoL is the worst of all 3 of the major MOBA games I've tried. This is heavily evidenced by the fact that in professional play, there are usually barely any kills before the 20 minute mark. It is extremely painful to watch. In fact, without the help of the jungler (in high level play), kills rarely happen in the lane at all. To depend on the jungler just to make kills happen is absolutely crazy. That doesn't mean that there isn't some harassment and back-and-forth. Yes, it's true that whoever pushes their opponent to the tower typically has the advantage by virtue of making it harder to last hit. But that is not exciting. It's still a war of last hits. Last hitting is still important in LoL, I was in Gold II (so top 5% of all LoL players) before I got bored and went back to DotA, and it was absolutely imperative that you were ahead of the other carry in creep kills.

The laning phase in LoL is also made boring by extremely formulaic and stagnated metagame. Where in DotA the players can choose from an abundance of different lane combinations, LoL players are pretty much stuck with the typical 1-1-2+jungler.

Even if you chose to go the formulaic carry+support bottom lane route, the amount of options available to the DotA player are astronomically higher.

What can the LoL support player do?
1. Harass the opponent with his autoattacks and spells

There you go. You've completely exhausted the list of what you can realistically do as a support in the laning phase of League of Legends.

What can the DotA support player do?

1. Harass the opponent with his autoattacks and spells.
2. Deny allied creeps.
3. Stack the neutral creep camp.
4. Pull the neutral creep camp.
5. Walk mid and gank.
6. Smoke mid and gank.
7. Teleport mid and gank.
8. Smoke top and gank.
9. Smoke into their jungle and gank.
10. Teleport top and gank.
11. Help your jungler.
12. Secure rune control.
13. Permanently go mid to support.
14. Permanently go top to support.
15. Temporarily go top or mid to stop a heavy push attempt.

All of these options require different amounts of time, strategy, and financial investment to pull off.

Could a LoL support TECHNICALLY gank mid? Yes, but it's unlikely to work. As soon as a support goes missing for that long it's obvious something is fishy, and ganking mid with a support just isn't that effective. Not to mention that you're screwing your carry over by leaving. DotA carries are much more self-reliant and don't need the support with them all the time to succeed. The towers themselves deal much less damage per hit, which makes last hitting under the tower a much more viable option than in LoL, and is sometimes preferred for safety reasons and to free up a hero to go elsewhere.

This is a recurring theme throughout the comparison of DotA and LoL. In DotA, as a player, you simply have so many more options at any given time than does the LoL player. What I gave you was just one example. I could give you tons of examples just like this. That is to say, DotA's superior strategic depth comes from the multitude of options it presents the player at any given time. Your skill as a player doesn't come from the ability to throw a Nidalee Javelin, it comes from the impossible decision of having dozens of equally tempting options available to you, and being forced to decide which one is the most beneficial.

Many LoL players do not understand this because they do not understand DotA. If you come into DotA with the LoL mentality, then it's probably going to seem rather disappointing. If you want to truly appreciate the depth and complexity of DotA, you simply need to think outside the box.

I hate last hitting. I agree with you, it's a crappy mechanic and it shouldn't be a measure of skill. So what do my friends and I do? We avoid it altogether. We create lane combinations that don't need to focus on last hitting to be effective. Lina + Sand King is a classic example. What need for last hitting when you're killing your opponents over and over? Juggernaught + Crystal Maiden is another extremely nasty one. Bristleback + Venomancer will have your opponents on their knees. With lane combinations like this, last hitting is a tertiary concern at best.

One of my girlfriend and my favorite lane combinations is Keeper of the Light + Leshrac. It is absolute tower demolition. Keeper's nuke kills whole creep waves and Leshrac has an ability which can kill towers in about 10 seconds flat (from full health). Once we've destroyed the tower in our lane we don't even worry about the people there anymore, we just go to the next lane and repeat the process. Pretty soon our team has 3,000 extra gold and is 3 towers closer to victory.

All this is to say that you're simply looking at DotA the wrong way. DotA is not *meant* to be played a certain way like LoL is. You aren't forced into a box. The box you create is self-imposed. If you want to create a boring farm lane, that's certainly a possibility. The Warlock + Faceless Void or Silencer + Spectre lanes will always have their advocates. Many people enjoy these kinds of lanes, and I don't think that option should be taken from them. However, that's far from the only possibility. There are so many good "push" and "kill" lanes that it's not even funny. There are literally thousands of lane combinations, all up to your own imagination, that make last hitting an almost negligible concern. And I'm sorry to say, but options like this simply aren't available in LoL. Stuck in the formulaic structure of the game, last hitting will always be important. Double-bruiser bottom lane might be fun in unskilled pubs, but how effective is it really against a carry and support who really know what they're doing?

When attempting to understand the design decisions implemented by the DotA team, you need to think about strategical depth. You're absolutely right, in DotA, you can't spam your abilities willy nilly. You must prepare, calculate, and time them all correctly, especially early on. So let me ask you, what strategy is there in spamming an ability over and over and over again, as soon as it is off cooldown? What timing does it require to keep pressing the same button again and again whenever you can? How does this contribute to the strategical value of the game? How does it make a person a better player?

You answered your own question with those remarks. The irony is that having more expensive spells means more strategical use of them. There is no strategy in simple point and click. The manaless champions in LoL are the epitome of this point. What skill does it require for me to take Katarina mid and spam my spells while gaining last hits and harassing my opponent like there is no tomorrow?

When I first met my girlfriend, she was a terrible LoL player, and she had never played DotA. When I first introduced her to DotA, one of her favorite characters was Vengeful Spirit. Initially, she would spam her stun on enemy heroes at level 1, as soon as they came into range. Within 2 uses of this, her mana was completely depleted, and she was basically useless, and the enemy hero just ate a tango and was full health again. It took me awhile to break the bad habits that LoL had instilled into her. I had to explain that this was no longer about just spamming her spells on enemy heroes whenever possible, but instead carefully waiting for that precise opportunity to strike, and working with your lane mate to secure a well-earned kill. Because in addition to their higher costs, you can't deny that the spells in DotA are also much more lethal as well. You may be able to kill somebody with Draven and Sona after 5 minutes of heavy harassment (unlikely). We can kill you with Lina and Sand King at level 1 if you get out of position. There is no flash to save your ass.

Mechanics like flash just open up a whole can of worms I don't even want to go in to, but suffice it to say that a Summoner Spell that rewards bad positioning which is so important that it's used by over 90% of champions in any given professional game, is beyond reproach.

After nearly 200 games of DotA, my girlfriend is only average at last hitting, but she is still an above average DotA player. Where she lacks in some areas, she makes up with her knowledge of where to be, when to be there, and what to do. As an example, she always carries teleports on her person, which means that she can assist an ally halfway across the map almost instantaneously as long as she is paying attention. Ironically, when she returned to LoL after not having played it for several months, not only was she much better than her friends who used to be equals, but she began to see how limited the game was. She was no longer worrying about whether she could hit her Dark Binding, but instead looking at the overall strategic options as a whole, and in that regard, LoL is decidedly inferior.

All of this comes at a heavy price, of course, and there are many ways in which LoL is undoubtedly superior to DotA. It all depends on what's important to you I guess. There have certainly been times in my life where LoL was more appealing to me, but overall I have preferred DotA more.

In terms of what was said about the laning phase of Smite, I think that's extremely interesting. I think it would all depend on how common or viable the "kill lanes" you speak of were. My biggest concern would be that once one team began winning a lane it would start to snowball uncontrollably. If every last hit is automatically taken by the pushed tower, I can see the losing side falling into an inescapable gold deficit which continued to perpetuate itself. Like I said however, without actually playing the game there's no way for me to know. It certainly sounds like it could be neat.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: tigersfan on December 22, 2013, 11:17:19 AM
In Smite, the towers on the side lanes are not the same distance apart, in the duo lane, they are farther apart, meaning that there is more room that one team would ahve to push in order to have the tower start denying, and if they sides are at all evenly matched in skill, this is difficult to do consistently. Similarly in the solo lane, if both players know what they are doing, it's hard to keep minions that far pushed for a long period of time even though it's a shorter distance than in the duo lane.

If one side is a great deal more skilled than another, then yeah, that kind of denial can lead to a pretty significant gold defecit, and that can snowball. But, with that level of skill difference, that was bound to happen anyway, most of the time.

Anyway, give Smite a try Wingflyer. You might find you like it. :)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on December 24, 2013, 12:28:06 AM
Yay, this thread is active again! <3

Before I begin my response I have to convey that I know almost absolutely nothing about SMITE. I've played thousands of games of HoN, LoL, and DotA, so those are the only 3 ARTS/MOBAs that I can fairly comment on.

In terms of the LoL laning phase being ideal, I'm afraid I'm going to have to heavily disagree there. The laning phase in LoL is the worst of all 3 of the major MOBA games I've tried. This is heavily evidenced by the fact that in professional play, there are usually barely any kills before the 20 minute mark. It is extremely painful to watch. In fact, without the help of the jungler (in high level play), kills rarely happen in the lane at all. To depend on the jungler just to make kills happen is absolutely crazy. That doesn't mean that there isn't some harassment and back-and-forth. Yes, it's true that whoever pushes their opponent to the tower typically has the advantage by virtue of making it harder to last hit. But that is not exciting. It's still a war of last hits. Last hitting is still important in LoL, I was in Gold II (so top 5% of all LoL players) before I got bored and went back to DotA, and it was absolutely imperative that you were ahead of the other carry in creep kills.

The laning phase in LoL is also made boring by extremely formulaic and stagnated metagame. Where in DotA the players can choose from an abundance of different lane combinations, LoL players are pretty much stuck with the typical 1-1-2+jungler.

Even if you chose to go the formulaic carry+support bottom lane route, the amount of options available to the DotA player are astronomically higher.

What can the LoL support player do?
1. Harass the opponent with his autoattacks and spells

There you go. You've completely exhausted the list of what you can realistically do as a support in the laning phase of League of Legends.

What can the DotA support player do?

1. Harass the opponent with his autoattacks and spells.
2. Deny allied creeps.
3. Stack the neutral creep camp.
4. Pull the neutral creep camp.
5. Walk mid and gank.
6. Smoke mid and gank.
7. Teleport mid and gank.
8. Smoke top and gank.
9. Smoke into their jungle and gank.
10. Teleport top and gank.
11. Help your jungler.
12. Secure rune control.
13. Permanently go mid to support.
14. Permanently go top to support.
15. Temporarily go top or mid to stop a heavy push attempt.

All of these options require different amounts of time, strategy, and financial investment to pull off.

Could a LoL support TECHNICALLY gank mid? Yes, but it's unlikely to work. As soon as a support goes missing for that long it's obvious something is fishy, and ganking mid with a support just isn't that effective. Not to mention that you're screwing your carry over by leaving. DotA carries are much more self-reliant and don't need the support with them all the time to succeed. The towers themselves deal much less damage per hit, which makes last hitting under the tower a much more viable option than in LoL, and is sometimes preferred for safety reasons and to free up a hero to go elsewhere.

This is a recurring theme throughout the comparison of DotA and LoL. In DotA, as a player, you simply have so many more options at any given time than does the LoL player. What I gave you was just one example. I could give you tons of examples just like this. That is to say, DotA's superior strategic depth comes from the multitude of options it presents the player at any given time. Your skill as a player doesn't come from the ability to throw a Nidalee Javelin, it comes from the impossible decision of having dozens of equally tempting options available to you, and being forced to decide which one is the most beneficial.

Many LoL players do not understand this because they do not understand DotA. If you come into DotA with the LoL mentality, then it's probably going to seem rather disappointing. If you want to truly appreciate the depth and complexity of DotA, you simply need to think outside the box.

I hate last hitting. I agree with you, it's a crappy mechanic and it shouldn't be a measure of skill. So what do my friends and I do? We avoid it altogether. We create lane combinations that don't need to focus on last hitting to be effective. Lina + Sand King is a classic example. What need for last hitting when you're killing your opponents over and over? Juggernaught + Crystal Maiden is another extremely nasty one. Bristleback + Venomancer will have your opponents on their knees. With lane combinations like this, last hitting is a tertiary concern at best.

One of my girlfriend and my favorite lane combinations is Keeper of the Light + Leshrac. It is absolute tower demolition. Keeper's nuke kills whole creep waves and Leshrac has an ability which can kill towers in about 10 seconds flat (from full health). Once we've destroyed the tower in our lane we don't even worry about the people there anymore, we just go to the next lane and repeat the process. Pretty soon our team has 3,000 extra gold and is 3 towers closer to victory.

All this is to say that you're simply looking at DotA the wrong way. DotA is not *meant* to be played a certain way like LoL is. You aren't forced into a box. The box you create is self-imposed. If you want to create a boring farm lane, that's certainly a possibility. The Warlock + Faceless Void or Silencer + Spectre lanes will always have their advocates. Many people enjoy these kinds of lanes, and I don't think that option should be taken from them. However, that's far from the only possibility. There are so many good "push" and "kill" lanes that it's not even funny. There are literally thousands of lane combinations, all up to your own imagination, that make last hitting an almost negligible concern. And I'm sorry to say, but options like this simply aren't available in LoL. Stuck in the formulaic structure of the game, last hitting will always be important. Double-bruiser bottom lane might be fun in unskilled pubs, but how effective is it really against a carry and support who really know what they're doing?

When attempting to understand the design decisions implemented by the DotA team, you need to think about strategical depth. You're absolutely right, in DotA, you can't spam your abilities willy nilly. You must prepare, calculate, and time them all correctly, especially early on. So let me ask you, what strategy is there in spamming an ability over and over and over again, as soon as it is off cooldown? What timing does it require to keep pressing the same button again and again whenever you can? How does this contribute to the strategical value of the game? How does it make a person a better player?

You answered your own question with those remarks. The irony is that having more expensive spells means more strategical use of them. There is no strategy in simple point and click. The manaless champions in LoL are the epitome of this point. What skill does it require for me to take Katarina mid and spam my spells while gaining last hits and harassing my opponent like there is no tomorrow?

When I first met my girlfriend, she was a terrible LoL player, and she had never played DotA. When I first introduced her to DotA, one of her favorite characters was Vengeful Spirit. Initially, she would spam her stun on enemy heroes at level 1, as soon as they came into range. Within 2 uses of this, her mana was completely depleted, and she was basically useless, and the enemy hero just ate a tango and was full health again. It took me awhile to break the bad habits that LoL had instilled into her. I had to explain that this was no longer about just spamming her spells on enemy heroes whenever possible, but instead carefully waiting for that precise opportunity to strike, and working with your lane mate to secure a well-earned kill. Because in addition to their higher costs, you can't deny that the spells in DotA are also much more lethal as well. You may be able to kill somebody with Draven and Sona after 5 minutes of heavy harassment (unlikely). We can kill you with Lina and Sand King at level 1 if you get out of position. There is no flash to save your ass.

Mechanics like flash just open up a whole can of worms I don't even want to go in to, but suffice it to say that a Summoner Spell that rewards bad positioning which is so important that it's used by over 90% of champions in any given professional game, is beyond reproach.

After nearly 200 games of DotA, my girlfriend is only average at last hitting, but she is still an above average DotA player. Where she lacks in some areas, she makes up with her knowledge of where to be, when to be there, and what to do. As an example, she always carries teleports on her person, which means that she can assist an ally halfway across the map almost instantaneously as long as she is paying attention. Ironically, when she returned to LoL after not having played it for several months, not only was she much better than her friends who used to be equals, but she began to see how limited the game was. She was no longer worrying about whether she could hit her Dark Binding, but instead looking at the overall strategic options as a whole, and in that regard, LoL is decidedly inferior.

All of this comes at a heavy price, of course, and there are many ways in which LoL is undoubtedly superior to DotA. It all depends on what's important to you I guess. There have certainly been times in my life where LoL was more appealing to me, but overall I have preferred DotA more.

In terms of what was said about the laning phase of Smite, I think that's extremely interesting. I think it would all depend on how common or viable the "kill lanes" you speak of were. My biggest concern would be that once one team began winning a lane it would start to snowball uncontrollably. If every last hit is automatically taken by the pushed tower, I can see the losing side falling into an inescapable gold deficit which continued to perpetuate itself. Like I said however, without actually playing the game there's no way for me to know. It certainly sounds like it could be neat.

Whoa, whoa.  I'm the one that's supposed to be doing the monstrous text blocks here!   :P


I have to say, I see support a bit differently here.

My problems with Dota's support stuff is as such:

1. The most boring thing a support has to do is also one that takes up a huge amount of time:  Warding.  Seriously, this is DULL.  People can go on and on about "strategic!", but it's still bloody boring.  And it's not all that hard to figure out the best spots for wards, given the situation.  There's little fighting or challenge in doing this;  you could say that the challenge is in potentially running into enemies, but that's usually just instant doom for the support, which doesnt actually provide challenge, as typically you cant really engage in direct combat with them unless they're very underpowered, or they're another single roaming support such as yourself.

2.  Items.  One thing I love about mobas is the depth that all of the equipment provides.  But in Dota especially, this.... isnt really an aspect of supports.  They're going to have very little cash, and chances are, they're blowing it on wards, over and over and over. Aside from just being really uninteresting, it doesnt truly give much chance to dive into the equipment system.  And even when you do have money, often it goes towards the same support-tastic items each time, for pretty much any support.  There's a couple of extremely specific exceptions, but this tends to be true overall.  In *every* other moba I have tried, this issue is dramatically lessened, as you dont need to spend that extreme amount of gold on wards. You still NEED wards, but it doesnt have the ridiculous focus that it has in Dota.  Particularly in the upcoming Dawngate.... holy hell, I *love* playing support in that. I dont have to buy wards.... EVER.  I have plenty of other more interesting duties that I can choose from instead of that particular uninteresting task.

3. Denying.  Ye gods, this mechanic.... it has always struck me as one of the dumbest concepts in any multiplayer game.  No, I dont give a flying fart how "deep" it is, it's still bloody stupid.   My opponent is causing trouble?  I know!  Let's shoot my own troops in the back of the head! That'll learn him a thing or two!!!   ....bloody stupid.  Not to mention it's not actually difficult OR deep;  it's just timing based, and knowing at least a bit on where you are in terms of being far down the lane or close to the tower.  I've found that this is actually the easiest thing to learn, as it's just last-hitting for supports.

4. Stacking/pulling:  Again, just timing-based.  It's not hard at all to know when to do it, and when the time comes to do it, you simply need to know the timing, which isnt very hard to get down.  Personally I find this one rather dull.

5.  Ganking:  The idea that this cant work in other games very well seems to be a misconception to me.  It's just that it works DIFFERENTLY.  In Dota, you often directly attack the enemy when trying to do this.  In others, it's often best to appear suddenly..... and violently buff your teammate who is already there, and then attack WITH him, preferrably dropping debuffs on the fleeing foe as you get closer, while having the safety of your teammate right there to take some of the heat for you, while you continue to heal/buff.  In theory, your teammate should then be the one that actually gets the kill.

6.  Laning:  This is the one that gets me the most.  Laning in Dota is BORING.  I'm sorry, but it is.  For a support, it mostly consists of dancing around, occaisionally firing a shot to deny (again, bloody stupid)... and that's about it.  You do this until some other duty presents itself.  There's little excitement here, and when combat DOES happen, it's often over in .0000002 seconds, and then it's back to boring.  In the others, the combat is nearly constant, even for the support; I'm constantly firing spells at my opponent, constantly healing and hitting my teammate with buffing effects, or pulling them out of the way of strong enemy spells, I'm constantly working to dodge enemy spells, constantly watching my recharge times on each ability I have, and so on.  There's quite alot to combat in any of these games, so I find it hard to say there's no depth here, and combat in the others just LASTS LONGER, too... no instantly defeating an opponent due to 1 or 2 lucky hits in those, as can happen in Dota.  And Dota's support tasks are simply more spread out, and involving MUCH less actual fighting.  The others typically are more focused around the area that your carry is currently occupying, and there's LOTS of fighting/dodging/running happening there.   And you still have to be paying attention to what is going on elsewhere, for if your presence in another lane could provide some sort of advantage, just like in any of these games.  And combat isnt about ability spam, either.  If I just fire randomly, not paying attention to the timing, order, or when it's a good idea to attack or a bad idea.... I *will* get destroyed.  It's just like in fighting games:  Newer players tend to have this idea that if they just keep spamming powerful specials, they're going to kick ass.... but this is very, very far from the truth, even in very frantic fighters like Guilty Gear.  Someone trying that on me WILL be obliterated with next to no effort.   In these games, I never just spam spells, I'm always watching the situation and only attacking when it's a good idea.  It's still frequent attacking, just like in a fighting game, but that doesnt = spam.   And of course if my opponent should spam randomly.... chances are, I can take them down without much trouble, or easily escape them should they try a direct assault.

7.  Last hitting: Ehhhh.  I agree with you on this one, it's a damn stupid mechanic.  I can understand WHY it's there, in that it makes you pay attention to the creep waves, giving more things to focus on at once during laning, and adds at least a bit of an element of extra skill necessary.  And of course some people also just like timing-based challenges.  I have to say though, I kinda prefer it in other mobas for one extremely simple reason:  You dont HAVE to only use your basic attack to do it.  In Dota, farming with spells is usually a big no-no.  You simply dont have the mana, and cannot fire them very often at all before you run out.  In the others, you CAN do this, and there are some spells that are specifically designed to be very helpful when it comes to last-hitting.  And of course, skillshot types being what they are (which are DRAMATICALLY more common in the other mobas), you have to know when and where to fire amongst the creep waves in order to max out the effect of the spell, creating as little waste as possible.  It does depend on which game you're playing as to just how much of this particular thing you do (Smite in particular seems to allow ALOT of this, constantly, for any role), but I personally find it a good thing.


And understand with all of this, that despite how negative I probably sound, I still do quite like Dota.  When it comes to these games, I seriously have a really, really hard time deciding which I like most. I really just cant say which is my favorite;  I often consider them to just be DIFFERENT from one another, not so much BETTER.  Which I play merely depends on my mood at the time, and what kind of gameplay I feel like doing in them.  For the most part, all of the ones I'm interested in are all superb games.  And I can come up with a negative list like this for ALL of them...  I'm very good at "negative" in general, as a rule.  Yet another reason why I go by "Misery", hah.


Also this topic is very interesting.  Should keep this one going.  There so much STUFF in this genre that makes for great debate.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on December 24, 2013, 08:25:00 AM
With regards to 1: Supports
I find playing support in Smite to be quite fun. I can either by a support-tank and bodyblock shots, provide debuffs, slows, stuns and whatever to help my lane mate. I'm also mostly responsible for warding, but since I'll often have the "Eye of Providence" active item, I don't need to spend gold on wards, since that item provides a free ward every 60 seconds. Or, I can play a support mage and help my lane mate by weakening minions for last hit/clear, heal my lanemate or protect them during ganks.
 
2: Support gold/gear
Supports in Smite generally pick up two items that help them with gold flow. First off, Midas Boots; These increase the passive gold spool by 50%. Then "Watcher's Gift" which is a starter item that will provide last hit bonus gold to the support if their lane mate last hits anything. It does however make them squishy early game, since they'll be focusing on gold income rather than tank items. It does however not matter much in the long run since they will passively make more gold than most laners.
 
3: Denying
Well yeah, Smite doesn't have denying, so it's not an issue.
 
4: Pulling/stacking
I barely don't even know what this is, but I'll make some guesses. In Smite, you can hit the front minion to make him stagger. If you keep doing that, all minions will eventually be "stacked" together more closely and you can use small-space AOE to take them out. You can also "pull" minions away from a fight by hitting the opposing god, which will aggro minions on you. If you are not in range of their archers atm, all minions will then start to run towards you, ignoring YOUR mininons, giving your minions a chance to get ahead in HP, since they will keep hitting the opposing minions. Generally you don't do this unless you are playing a god that has bad clear early on.
 
5: Ganking
Simple. Generally only done early game by the jungler. Everyone else will simply rotate with their opposing god if they leave lane. The jungler ganks for two reasons: Helping solo and mid lane to push the lane, regardless of whether they are doing good or bad and also because the jungler is generally behind on farm and XP due to less gold/XP available in the jungle. Kills are worth far less in Smite compared to most other MOBAs, so you shouldn't risk too much going after a kill early game. It might not be worth it.
 
6: Laning
It varies HUGELY in Smite whether laning is boring or fun. If you are against a god and a player that is much more skilled/suited than you are, laning can be extremely stressful and even frustrating. If you are against someone of equal skill, it comes down to gods chosen. Midlane Ao Kuang vs Ao Kuang is for instance MINDBOGGINGLY boring as both will generally just sit in their tower and toss tornadoes at minions until the jungler comes along for a gank. Both have superior clear but rather poor gank. Most of the time though, laning is quite fun. Especially in duo lane.
 
7. Last hitting
Well, last hitting provides you with something of 12-13 gold extra in Smite, which is barely anything. So it's quite pointless to focus your attention on. Sure, it DOES give you a slight edge, but if you are lapsing in attention or if you simply don't give a damn, it's not going to cost you the game. The only time last-hitting REALLY MATTERS is when you have a so called "stacking" item that snowballs depending on stacks. Every kill on a minion or god provides a certain amount of stacks until the item is fully stacked, and every stack provides benefits.
 
 
Now, as for LoL and Dota, which are the only other MOBAs I've played, I've already stated I can't stomach the control scheme, the slow gameplay and the perspective. Smite is quick, frantic and generally much more twitch-based than the more slow and tactic gameplay of Dota and LoL. Most people consider this bad. I don't. I love being able to land a perfect skill shot and saving a team mate in a dire moment. (for a short example of a skillshot in Smite, see my Arachne ultimate in the beginning of this video (http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDcQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D9EbcrkOaUvs&ei=fYm5UpHxJ4aC4ASqqYGoBg&usg=AFQjCNFkWhbfr7qI6Qdl0w1rhRN4HKdc9A&sig2=zhg6j1kvmT1j8NcK1IetuQ&bvm=bv.58187178,d.bGE)).
 
My main problem with Dota and LoL is probably that both require a crapton of skill to play, but I personally think that the skills required are in the wrong places. Being super proficient with last hitting/denying will make you a better LoL/Dota player, but to me that's just a meh skill to have. It doesn't provide me with any gratification or fun, compared to say, landing a perfect Pillar + Impale skillshot combo with Anhur in Smite (Impale Combo (http://youtu.be/2Gfq4Ko31cE?t=13m16s)).
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on December 24, 2013, 12:33:04 PM
1. Warding -

It's true that supports in DotA spend quite a bit of time warding.  Once every six minutes (assuming you're perfect, which most of the time isn't possible).  However, I certainly wouldn't call it boring.  My girlfriend (who plays primarily support) has died so many times warding that she gets frustrated when she has to do it.  Warding in DotA is often very dangerous as the ward hotspots are also typically near the runes, which are extremely active areas of the map, especially during the mid-game.  Warding can lead to a sudden and unexpected death.  Good players can even lie in waiting just for a support to come.

You're right though, when a support goes alone, it's typically a death sentence if they get caught out.  That's why you take an escort.  It's something my girlfriend has learned to do.  She asks someone to go with her.  She can even turn a potential gank attempt into a kill.  This is where the strategies and mindgames come in.  The enemy knows you need to ward.  They know having vision of the wards/forest entrances are important.  Do they wait in ambush?  You expect that they will, so you send an escort for your support warder.  Do you use your support as bait to draw out the predator and kill them?  What if the enemy expects a trap and sends multiple heroes to do the job.  What if you expect this and your whole team is waiting just behind the fog?

These are the kinds of mind games that warding often plays in DotA.  Then you also get into counter-warding, counter-counter-warding, smoke ganking (which avoids wards altogether), and everything in-between.  In mid to high level play, it can get complicated; but the team which controls the ward vision has a massive advantage that can't be understated.

I agree that it is a big responsibility on the supports, but that doesn't mean that other people can't help them.  I try to buy wards whenever I can, regardless of what role I play.  I've been on a jungle kick lately, and I usually buy a least a couple set of wards throughout the game.  Especially early on, when I'm still weak, I'd rather have control of where they are placed so that when they attempt to gank me I know well in advance.  Sometimes you can ask for help if you're way behind on items.  Believe it or not, going Hand of Midas on supports has become a popular strategy in professional play lately, and it helps them out tremendously in the long run to buy the things they need, plus also get some luxury items as well.

2. Items -
In general DotA does items much better than does League of Legends.  Perhaps it's the fact that most heroes have multiple build paths, or that a large percentage of the items are activatable, or that there's simply a bigger variety of things to build.  Mostly however, I think it's the way both DotA and LoL handle items.  In LoL, items scale up, while in DotA, items scale down.  This means that in LoL, the farther ahead you get (in farm), the more exponential an advantage you'll have over your opponent.  In DotA it's just the opposite.  The cheaper the item, the more cost effective.  This means that even if an opponent has significantly more farm than you do, your items stand a much better chance of competing with his.  The more he has spent on any particular item, the less it was worth, cost-effectiveness wise.  This allows even supports to buy cheaper items (Urn of Shadows, Medallion of Courage, Magic Wand) that can still make a BIG difference in battle while still being able to afford the mainstream support stuff.

3. Denying -
I'm really pretty neutral on denying.  I could take it or leave it.  I've seen good arguments on both sides.  I highly recommend reading this article (http://nomeswisdom.wordpress.com/2011/06/07/denying/) about it by [S2]Nome. Against it is certainly the fact that it's a non-intuitive mechanic.  I hate it when games add non-intuitive mechanics for no reason.  Sometimes it's necessary but in this case I feel like it just adds unneeded complexity.  However, there are some positives to it as well.  It raises the skill gap in the laning phase.  In LoL you can harass or last hit.  In DotA, you can harass, last hit, or deny.  You've increased the potential options/skill ceiling by 33% for each player.  It also gives supports something to do, as they are typically expected to deny instead of taking last hits. 

In DotA, some heroes are better at harassing, and some heroes are better at last hitting/denying.  Often, the winner of a lane (say mid lane) comes from a player's ability to deny vs an enemy's ability to kill them.  If a person can deny the "lethal" champion enough, it will cause him to be underleveled/underfarmed to such an extent that he loses quite a bit of his killing power.  Conversely, if the aggressive champion can get ahead on kills, the last-hitter can be put in a very difficult position.

Like I said, it's a frustrating mechanic, but it certainly adds depth to the game, at a cost.  I simply attempt to avoid it by playing lanes/roles that don't require it much to succeed, and there are plenty of those.

4.  Stacking/pulling -
It's not difficult to do, but the strategy appears when the enemy comes to stop you.  People don't like their creep waves being pulled, it robs them of a substantial amount of farm and exp.  They will stop you if they can, which often causes dangerous fights to break out.  Typically though you have the advantage since these fights are close to your tower, and in your jungle.

5.  Ganking -
I didn't say that it doesn't work in other games.  I said it doesn't work in LoL.  As a support, leaving your lane to go gank mid during the laning phase seems extremely unlikely to work.  If the enemy calls their lane it should be extremely obvious what's happening.  Not to mention that every second you leave your carry is guaranteed to hurt you in the long run.  Even if you secure the mid kill, for example, you may have lost even more by the time you get back to the lane. 

In DotA it's so much more viable to gank.  You've got teleports to be at mid or top lane almost instantly.  Can you imagine a support leaving bot lane to help top in LoL?  It's just too insane to consider.  You've also got smoke at your disposal, which literally cloaks you to all enemy vision now, even see-invis wards.  It also gives you a boost of 15% movespeed, and it lasts for 60 seconds.  It only ends once you are very close to an enemy hero or tower.  With a tool like this, you have ganking opportunities that a LoL player couldn't even DREAM of, and it only costs 100 gold.  Not only that, but even if you just walk mid from bottom lane, there's a much higher chance of a successful gank.  Supports are often missing from the lane anyway because they may be pulling, warding, or doing any number of things.  Ability ranges are also much longer in DotA, stuns are more common, and there is no flash.  It's not hard to coordinate a successful gank on mid if you work together, even without paying for a consumable to make it work.

I've had two games recently with two different friends who were playing mid.  My friends are good players so they were successfully dominating the mid lane.  In both games, the enemy team saw that they were a problem, and through a series of coordinated ganks with supports, killed my friends at mid over, and over, and over again until they had lost most their farm and were neutered as hell.  They were effectively camping mid with their supports, waiting for the right opportunity to strike, then taking them down before they got out of hand.  It goes without saying that a mid that gets super ahead in DotA is extremely potent.

I'm not saying this isn't possible in LoL.  It's just with over a thousand games of experience, I've never seen anything like it. Sure, you have the teleport summoner spell, it's just not that viable on supports and has a considerably longer cooldown than in DotA. DotA ganking in general is just more effective.  You have more approach paths (including ones you can make yourself by cutting down trees), more mobility, and more accessibility to every lane.  There is no flash to ruin ganks regularly, and more stuns to set them up correctly if the opponent is out of position.  Tower diving is much, much more viable, which allows for some crazy gank attempts that can sometimes break out into entire teamfights because of scroll of teleport.

6. Laning -
As I said before, if traditional DotA laning bores you, don't do it.  After playing the game for over 10 years, it bores me a bit too as well.  My friends and I rarely do traditional laning anymore.  Most often we create some kind of obnoxious lane combination that "breaks" the game.  (We like to call these "gay lanes", however immature that may be.)  Find a friend that you synergize well with and pick a powerful kill lane.  You say fighting and killing is rare in DotA lanes, but I assure you, with Lina + Sand King, killing is not rare at all.  With CM + Juggernaught you will be killing your opponent(s) over and over again.  Sure, they may leave the lane (or leave the game) because they're tired of dying, but you can't possibly complain about that.  As I said last time, Leshrac + Keeper of the Light is a blast.  We often get complained at because "you're taking two supports bottom lane waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah".  Then when we start melting towers like faces, people change their tune.  In DotA is a game for innovators.  If you try to play traditionally, people who have played more are going to beat you by experience.  Don't play their game, force them to play yours.  Find your group's favorite heroes and make them work together.

I knew that my cousin likes Skywrath Mage, Dazzle, and Bristleback.  Those are 3 of his favorites.  I like Leshrac, Slardar, and Pugna. 

So?  We put them together and were amazed with the results. 

Dazzle (http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Dazzle) and Slardar (http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Slardar) wasn't difficult to figure out.  It's a combination sometimes even used in competitive play.  Powerful in the lane but even more powerful late game.  Both heroes have anti-armor ultimates.  Combined, they can bring an enemy to -60 armor or more.  This means that, in essence, a carry could feasibly kill an enemy player from full health in one hit.  Both of their ultimates go through magic immunity...

Bristleback (http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Bristleback) + Leshrac (http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Leshrac) has turned out to be the nastiest, most disgusting, most overpowered lane we've ever devised in 10 years.  Early on in the laning phase, Bristlebacks stacking slow makes landing my "skillshot stun" easy, and we can often secure a within the first minute of the game.  The laning phase often snowballs and we can take a tower fairly quickly if necessary.  However, where the combination really shines is during the teamfight phase.  Bristleback is well known as one of the most powerful tanks in the game.  Hit from behind (his bristleback), he takes 40% reduced damage and retaliates with a free spray of quills in a large area.  This in addition to the skill that does the same allows him to spread physical damage in a large area over a large period of time.  Each time an enemy is hit by these quills, they become even more vulnerable to the next, til they get to the point that each new quill is taking an 1/8th of their health or more.  Enter Leshrac, whose Pulse Nova deals hundreds of magical damage in a large area every second as long as he has mana (think Karthus Defile, except much stronger).  Normally Leshrac is vulnerable when using this ability because he's a squishy intelligence hero, but with Bristleback to tank and draw the fire, it becomes much easier.  With the massive amount of magic and physical aoe damage that we're both throwing out, we can kill entire teams in seconds.  2v5, we've done it many times.  We have never lost with this combination.  Our team can be sleeping and we still win.  Nobody ever expects and it never lets up.

Pugna (http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Pugna) + Skywrath Mage (http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Skywrath) is one of the most hilarious troll lanes EVER.  Both Pugna and Skywrath have an ability which reduces an enemy's magic resistance quite considerably.  They both also have slows.  They both also do a buttload of magic damage.  Basically, you hit 3, pick a target, and watch them die.  Everything melts.  It's the most unorthodox, most unexpected, most hilarious face melting lane we've ever devised.  NOBODY expects it.  It goes against every unwritten rule that DotA players adhere to.  Taking 2 solo mid laners and putting them bot together should end in disaster; and it does - just not for the right team  ;D

You just have to experiment a bit and practice until you find unorthodox lanes that destroy everything and which nobody expects.  That's when laning in DotA becomes a lot of fun.

7. Last hitting -

Like I said, I agree with this.  It's a boring mechanic and has absolutely nothing to do with the kind of grand strategy or critical thinking the rest of the game requires.  I almost look at it as a kind of 'mini-game within the game', because somebody can be completely horrible at it, yet still be good at the rest of the game.  Conversely, someone can be extremely good at last hitting, and horrible at everything else.  It's a skill that doesn't really translate to the rest of the game, but as far as I know, all the popular MOBAs use it. Having said that, removing or reinventing it is not as easy as one would think.  Nome started an interesting discussion about this a few years ago.  At some point, he and his team of designers went about trying dozens of different alternatives to last hitting inside of their own 3rd party MOBA game.  They tried everything.  They tried gold simply dropping on the ground, spreading gold and exp equally among everyone in the lane, creating different resources for different creep, even removing the mechanic entirely.  In the end, no matter what they tried, all the mechanics ended up as inferior to the simple last-hitting mechanic the game was built around.

I believe the next generation of ARTS games are planning to change this formula however.  Heroes of the Storm (Blizzard DotA) and S2's new game Strife are removing or revamping this mechanic completely, from what I've read.  I'll be greatly anticipating both.




Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on December 24, 2013, 12:52:33 PM
Oh, as a second things that I thought of when I read your #2 there:
 
Items! Active items in DotA really threw me off. In a game where split-second decisions can make or break you, I find it extremely infuriating to not only have your abilites, but also "random" items have an active component. I much prefer Smite's way of doing it where you have 4 abilites, 1 passive, 2 active slots (where items with an active component go) and 6 passive item slots. That makes it a lot easier to focus.
 
I guess you could play DotA that way, and simply keep two actives in the same keybinds as Smite, but it still seems a bit "messy" to me.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on December 24, 2013, 01:29:46 PM
Oh, as a second things that I thought of when I read your #2 there:
 
Items! Active items in DotA really threw me off. In a game where split-second decisions can make or break you, I find it extremely infuriating to not only have your abilites, but also "random" items have an active component. I much prefer Smite's way of doing it where you have 4 abilites, 1 passive, 2 active slots (where items with an active component go) and 6 passive item slots. That makes it a lot easier to focus.
 
I guess you could play DotA that way, and simply keep two actives in the same keybinds as Smite, but it still seems a bit "messy" to me.
Yeah it gets confusing sometimes.  I've had up to 6 active items...sadly I only have hotkeys for 5 of them.  It can become overwhelming.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on December 25, 2013, 02:08:29 AM
1. Warding -

It's true that supports in DotA spend quite a bit of time warding.  Once every six minutes (assuming you're perfect, which most of the time isn't possible).  However, I certainly wouldn't call it boring.  My girlfriend (who plays primarily support) has died so many times warding that she gets frustrated when she has to do it.  Warding in DotA is often very dangerous as the ward hotspots are also typically near the runes, which are extremely active areas of the map, especially during the mid-game.  Warding can lead to a sudden and unexpected death.  Good players can even lie in waiting just for a support to come.

You're right though, when a support goes alone, it's typically a death sentence if they get caught out.  That's why you take an escort.  It's something my girlfriend has learned to do.  She asks someone to go with her.  She can even turn a potential gank attempt into a kill.  This is where the strategies and mindgames come in.  The enemy knows you need to ward.  They know having vision of the wards/forest entrances are important.  Do they wait in ambush?  You expect that they will, so you send an escort for your support warder.  Do you use your support as bait to draw out the predator and kill them?  What if the enemy expects a trap and sends multiple heroes to do the job.  What if you expect this and your whole team is waiting just behind the fog?

These are the kinds of mind games that warding often plays in DotA.  Then you also get into counter-warding, counter-counter-warding, smoke ganking (which avoids wards altogether), and everything in-between.  In mid to high level play, it can get complicated; but the team which controls the ward vision has a massive advantage that can't be understated.

I agree that it is a big responsibility on the supports, but that doesn't mean that other people can't help them.  I try to buy wards whenever I can, regardless of what role I play.  I've been on a jungle kick lately, and I usually buy a least a couple set of wards throughout the game.  Especially early on, when I'm still weak, I'd rather have control of where they are placed so that when they attempt to gank me I know well in advance.  Sometimes you can ask for help if you're way behind on items.  Believe it or not, going Hand of Midas on supports has become a popular strategy in professional play lately, and it helps them out tremendously in the long run to buy the things they need, plus also get some luxury items as well.

2. Items -
In general DotA does items much better than does League of Legends.  Perhaps it's the fact that most heroes have multiple build paths, or that a large percentage of the items are activatable, or that there's simply a bigger variety of things to build.  Mostly however, I think it's the way both DotA and LoL handle items.  In LoL, items scale up, while in DotA, items scale down.  This means that in LoL, the farther ahead you get (in farm), the more exponential an advantage you'll have over your opponent.  In DotA it's just the opposite.  The cheaper the item, the more cost effective.  This means that even if an opponent has significantly more farm than you do, your items stand a much better chance of competing with his.  The more he has spent on any particular item, the less it was worth, cost-effectiveness wise.  This allows even supports to buy cheaper items (Urn of Shadows, Medallion of Courage, Magic Wand) that can still make a BIG difference in battle while still being able to afford the mainstream support stuff.

3. Denying -
I'm really pretty neutral on denying.  I could take it or leave it.  I've seen good arguments on both sides.  I highly recommend reading this article (http://nomeswisdom.wordpress.com/2011/06/07/denying/) about it by [S2]Nome. Against it is certainly the fact that it's a non-intuitive mechanic.  I hate it when games add non-intuitive mechanics for no reason.  Sometimes it's necessary but in this case I feel like it just adds unneeded complexity.  However, there are some positives to it as well.  It raises the skill gap in the laning phase.  In LoL you can harass or last hit.  In DotA, you can harass, last hit, or deny.  You've increased the potential options/skill ceiling by 33% for each player.  It also gives supports something to do, as they are typically expected to deny instead of taking last hits. 

In DotA, some heroes are better at harassing, and some heroes are better at last hitting/denying.  Often, the winner of a lane (say mid lane) comes from a player's ability to deny vs an enemy's ability to kill them.  If a person can deny the "lethal" champion enough, it will cause him to be underleveled/underfarmed to such an extent that he loses quite a bit of his killing power.  Conversely, if the aggressive champion can get ahead on kills, the last-hitter can be put in a very difficult position.

Like I said, it's a frustrating mechanic, but it certainly adds depth to the game, at a cost.  I simply attempt to avoid it by playing lanes/roles that don't require it much to succeed, and there are plenty of those.

4.  Stacking/pulling -
It's not difficult to do, but the strategy appears when the enemy comes to stop you.  People don't like their creep waves being pulled, it robs them of a substantial amount of farm and exp.  They will stop you if they can, which often causes dangerous fights to break out.  Typically though you have the advantage since these fights are close to your tower, and in your jungle.

5.  Ganking -
I didn't say that it doesn't work in other games.  I said it doesn't work in LoL.  As a support, leaving your lane to go gank mid during the laning phase seems extremely unlikely to work.  If the enemy calls their lane it should be extremely obvious what's happening.  Not to mention that every second you leave your carry is guaranteed to hurt you in the long run.  Even if you secure the mid kill, for example, you may have lost even more by the time you get back to the lane. 

In DotA it's so much more viable to gank.  You've got teleports to be at mid or top lane almost instantly.  Can you imagine a support leaving bot lane to help top in LoL?  It's just too insane to consider.  You've also got smoke at your disposal, which literally cloaks you to all enemy vision now, even see-invis wards.  It also gives you a boost of 15% movespeed, and it lasts for 60 seconds.  It only ends once you are very close to an enemy hero or tower.  With a tool like this, you have ganking opportunities that a LoL player couldn't even DREAM of, and it only costs 100 gold.  Not only that, but even if you just walk mid from bottom lane, there's a much higher chance of a successful gank.  Supports are often missing from the lane anyway because they may be pulling, warding, or doing any number of things.  Ability ranges are also much longer in DotA, stuns are more common, and there is no flash.  It's not hard to coordinate a successful gank on mid if you work together, even without paying for a consumable to make it work.

I've had two games recently with two different friends who were playing mid.  My friends are good players so they were successfully dominating the mid lane.  In both games, the enemy team saw that they were a problem, and through a series of coordinated ganks with supports, killed my friends at mid over, and over, and over again until they had lost most their farm and were neutered as hell.  They were effectively camping mid with their supports, waiting for the right opportunity to strike, then taking them down before they got out of hand.  It goes without saying that a mid that gets super ahead in DotA is extremely potent.

I'm not saying this isn't possible in LoL.  It's just with over a thousand games of experience, I've never seen anything like it. Sure, you have the teleport summoner spell, it's just not that viable on supports and has a considerably longer cooldown than in DotA. DotA ganking in general is just more effective.  You have more approach paths (including ones you can make yourself by cutting down trees), more mobility, and more accessibility to every lane.  There is no flash to ruin ganks regularly, and more stuns to set them up correctly if the opponent is out of position.  Tower diving is much, much more viable, which allows for some crazy gank attempts that can sometimes break out into entire teamfights because of scroll of teleport.

6. Laning -
As I said before, if traditional DotA laning bores you, don't do it.  After playing the game for over 10 years, it bores me a bit too as well.  My friends and I rarely do traditional laning anymore.  Most often we create some kind of obnoxious lane combination that "breaks" the game.  (We like to call these "gay lanes", however immature that may be.)  Find a friend that you synergize well with and pick a powerful kill lane.  You say fighting and killing is rare in DotA lanes, but I assure you, with Lina + Sand King, killing is not rare at all.  With CM + Juggernaught you will be killing your opponent(s) over and over again.  Sure, they may leave the lane (or leave the game) because they're tired of dying, but you can't possibly complain about that.  As I said last time, Leshrac + Keeper of the Light is a blast.  We often get complained at because "you're taking two supports bottom lane waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah".  Then when we start melting towers like faces, people change their tune.  In DotA is a game for innovators.  If you try to play traditionally, people who have played more are going to beat you by experience.  Don't play their game, force them to play yours.  Find your group's favorite heroes and make them work together.

I knew that my cousin likes Skywrath Mage, Dazzle, and Bristleback.  Those are 3 of his favorites.  I like Leshrac, Slardar, and Pugna. 

So?  We put them together and were amazed with the results. 

Dazzle (http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Dazzle) and Slardar (http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Slardar) wasn't difficult to figure out.  It's a combination sometimes even used in competitive play.  Powerful in the lane but even more powerful late game.  Both heroes have anti-armor ultimates.  Combined, they can bring an enemy to -60 armor or more.  This means that, in essence, a carry could feasibly kill an enemy player from full health in one hit.  Both of their ultimates go through magic immunity...

Bristleback (http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Bristleback) + Leshrac (http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Leshrac) has turned out to be the nastiest, most disgusting, most overpowered lane we've ever devised in 10 years.  Early on in the laning phase, Bristlebacks stacking slow makes landing my "skillshot stun" easy, and we can often secure a within the first minute of the game.  The laning phase often snowballs and we can take a tower fairly quickly if necessary.  However, where the combination really shines is during the teamfight phase.  Bristleback is well known as one of the most powerful tanks in the game.  Hit from behind (his bristleback), he takes 40% reduced damage and retaliates with a free spray of quills in a large area.  This in addition to the skill that does the same allows him to spread physical damage in a large area over a large period of time.  Each time an enemy is hit by these quills, they become even more vulnerable to the next, til they get to the point that each new quill is taking an 1/8th of their health or more.  Enter Leshrac, whose Pulse Nova deals hundreds of magical damage in a large area every second as long as he has mana (think Karthus Defile, except much stronger).  Normally Leshrac is vulnerable when using this ability because he's a squishy intelligence hero, but with Bristleback to tank and draw the fire, it becomes much easier.  With the massive amount of magic and physical aoe damage that we're both throwing out, we can kill entire teams in seconds.  2v5, we've done it many times.  We have never lost with this combination.  Our team can be sleeping and we still win.  Nobody ever expects and it never lets up.

Pugna (http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Pugna) + Skywrath Mage (http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Skywrath) is one of the most hilarious troll lanes EVER.  Both Pugna and Skywrath have an ability which reduces an enemy's magic resistance quite considerably.  They both also have slows.  They both also do a buttload of magic damage.  Basically, you hit 3, pick a target, and watch them die.  Everything melts.  It's the most unorthodox, most unexpected, most hilarious face melting lane we've ever devised.  NOBODY expects it.  It goes against every unwritten rule that DotA players adhere to.  Taking 2 solo mid laners and putting them bot together should end in disaster; and it does - just not for the right team  ;D

You just have to experiment a bit and practice until you find unorthodox lanes that destroy everything and which nobody expects.  That's when laning in DotA becomes a lot of fun.

7. Last hitting -

Like I said, I agree with this.  It's a boring mechanic and has absolutely nothing to do with the kind of grand strategy or critical thinking the rest of the game requires.  I almost look at it as a kind of 'mini-game within the game', because somebody can be completely horrible at it, yet still be good at the rest of the game.  Conversely, someone can be extremely good at last hitting, and horrible at everything else.  It's a skill that doesn't really translate to the rest of the game, but as far as I know, all the popular MOBAs use it. Having said that, removing or reinventing it is not as easy as one would think.  Nome started an interesting discussion about this a few years ago.  At some point, he and his team of designers went about trying dozens of different alternatives to last hitting inside of their own 3rd party MOBA game.  They tried everything.  They tried gold simply dropping on the ground, spreading gold and exp equally among everyone in the lane, creating different resources for different creep, even removing the mechanic entirely.  In the end, no matter what they tried, all the mechanics ended up as inferior to the simple last-hitting mechanic the game was built around.

I believe the next generation of ARTS games are planning to change this formula however.  Heroes of the Storm (Blizzard DotA) and S2's new game Strife are removing or revamping this mechanic completely, from what I've read.  I'll be greatly anticipating both.


Time for MORE WORDBLOBS!!!!!!!!


Warding:  Yeah, I understand there's a mild strategic element to it, but.... yeah, to me, still bloody boring.  There's the threat of getting wrecked, but I've never found that it actually adds to the experience, for one reason:  If an enemy should appear who isnt a support, it's always A: instant death or B: just run away.  Actual fighting breaking out would be way more interesting, but the nature of Dota's combat (very infrequently fired skills) usually leaves this as rather unexciting.

Typically, if I"m doing support, I have to buy all of the wards myself.  There's a reason why others dont do it:  Against a team that knows what they're doing, other players buying these is a major detriment.  Why?  Because THEY need all the gold they can get for items, wheras I as a support really rather dont.  If they're buying wards, they're using gold that they really shouldnt be. This can be seen in pro matches quite easily, where there is often one constantly roaming support who is entirely dedicated to this sort of thing much of the time.


Items:  Honestly, I find that the scaling of these in both games is pretty similar in terms of gaining advantage.  If anything, Dota's characters have a higher chance of snowballing than that of LoL, and for one huge reason:  The overly strong, single-hit-wrecks-you spells.  If one of those hits you while a well-fed carry is after you, you *are* dead.  In League, even strong characters need quite a number of hits to kill even weak targets, which leaves the targets at least a few potential options.  Even as a support, I can often use my own spells to escape a powered up carry or ganker, because they cant just insta-wreck me like can be done in Dota. Oh, they can still do it QUICKLY, but not INSTANTLY. League simply requires many more attacks to be done to get a kill than Dota does.  But more than that, I like the way League handles items due to the way spell stats work;  since spell stats can actually be altered by items, this gives you ALOT of options with each character.  Even a character like Soraka, a pure healer, can become a dangerous mid (or dangerous ganker) by equipping the right stuff, as the very nature of her spells changes due to it.  In Dota though, your spells do what they do..... and never change.  They'll always have the exact same stats for each skill level, no matter what.  I've always found this kinda stale. 

Though, those things affect my opinion not as much as I might make them sound.  I think both games do items pretty well in their own ways.

....though sometimes, I REALLY could do without the whole "crafting" idea that both of them use, as my memory is TERRIBLE.  I definitely prefer Smite's method, where items are leveled in the same way as spells, gaining their full effect when you've fully paid them off so that they hit their third level.  All I need to remember is what each does, not what each combines with to make what.  Infinite Crisis does this as well.  Dawngate uses a somewhat similar idea, except that the paths branch alot, starting from only 6 basic items and going into a whole bunch of different things.  Though the number of overall available items is likely to increase by quite a bit by the time that one actually releases; it's still in a pretty early beta form right now.


Denying:  No matter how I look at it, I just cant see any depth to this one.  If the creep is at the proper health level, and you're in position, you do it.   If it isnt, or you arent, you dont.  It never seems to interfere with harassing simply due to harassing being so very minimal in Dota compared to...  well, every other moba I've tried, where it's usually this constant barrage of spells flying back and forth.  In Dota, it's often ranged auto-attack pokes at best (which rarely do all that much damage), with major spells only being fired when a full kill attempt is being made. Particularly with ganking working the way it does;  if you're low on mana because you fired a spell to bother the lane opponent, chances are you now have no defense against gankers, with spells inhaling as much mana as they do. 


Stacking/pulling:  I can only say so much on this one beyond what I've already said.  I myself am still low level, and this aspect simply tends to not at all be necessary in low level matches, particularly if your lane partner doesnt know how it works or how to use it to their advantage, often outright yelling at the support for doing it.  Idiotic, yeah, but.... that's the low queue for ya :p


Ganking:  It works in League well enough, but it depends on your choice of champion, and your build, and just HOW you gank.  Ganks arent insta-death splats like they tend to be in Dota, which means both champions, the one who was already in the lane, and the one coming over to gank, need to work together to make the kill happen.  Ganking actually seems very frequent in LoL, particularly in higher level matches. It's one of those aspects that merely works differently, not so much better or worse.   Even supports can do it if the player knows the character enough, and particularly if they go for certain builds.  The support though is often too busy for this, unless the carry they're with sees a chance to go for it, at which point the support can follow and assist in it.


There's more to say here, but I'm getting overly hungry and losing focus, so I'll save that for later.  Right now, sandwiches must occur, or all is lost!
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 01, 2014, 12:54:31 PM
Mildly related but my girlfriend made me a DotA plushie of Axe (http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Axe) for me for New Years!

http://imgur.com/a/phJiR

It's very nice.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 06, 2014, 10:33:26 AM
Mildly related but my girlfriend made me a DotA plushie of Axe (http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Axe) for me for New Years!

http://imgur.com/a/phJiR (http://imgur.com/a/phJiR)

It's very nice.
That is quite ridiculously cute. My girlfriend made a similar thing, though she's a painting artist. She painted an Equilibrium of Mankind livre Armageddon (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/File:EOM_Orge.JPG) from EVE for me ^^
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 06, 2014, 03:54:00 PM
Thanks ;p

I posted the gallery on the DotA reddit page thinking that people would be impressed. Instead people were extremely jealous and butthurt, replying with comments like "that last picture wasn't necessary" and "somebody looks sick". Can you believe it got about twice as many downvotes as upvotes?

I know it sucks to be a single gamer but DAMN.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on January 06, 2014, 04:39:30 PM
@Wingflier:

It's all in Girard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Girard), man.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 06, 2014, 08:24:56 PM
Awesome! Thanks for showing me that.

According to Buddhism, desire is essentially the root of all evil. Once one eliminates desire, they will find inner peace.

However, as the Dalai Lama said, "In order to develop unbiased infinite love, you first need the practice of detach[ment]. But "detach" does not mean to give up desire. Desire must be there. Without desire, how can we live our life? Without desire, how can we achieve Buddhahood? Strong desire to become Buddha; but desire to be harmful, that’s bad."

So perhaps the word desire is misleading in this case. However, we in the West often use the word "desire" in a negative connotation, as in the negative impulses we all have which cause us to harm and ruin our lives. Envy and jealousy would be among these. It's certainly interesting to think about!
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on January 07, 2014, 09:34:48 AM
Now I want to see a new line of Dota champions based on philosphers.

Dibs on Schrodinger? ;)

On maybe Hegel, position synthesis has gotta be great for ganking.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 07, 2014, 12:52:03 PM
Thanks ;p

I posted the gallery on the DotA reddit page thinking that people would be impressed. Instead people were extremely jealous and butthurt, replying with comments like "that last picture wasn't necessary" and "somebody looks sick". Can you believe it got about twice as many downvotes as upvotes?

I know it sucks to be a single gamer but DAMN.
Welcome to Reddit. :P
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: madcow on January 07, 2014, 02:13:44 PM
Heh. Hate to break it to you, but Schrodinger's not really a philosopher, Physics != philosophy ;) one is real the other imaginary ;)

That said a game of scientists versus philosophers would be fun!  Though Oppenheimer would be OP.

/derail
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on January 07, 2014, 02:49:25 PM
Heh. Hate to break it to you, but Schrodinger's not really a philosopher, Physics != philosophy ;) one is real the other imaginary ;)
I was thinking more of his impact on the field, rather than his official participation in it :)

I think if Valve explored the theme it could be rather hilarious to a very small percentage of the population :)

It's funny just thinking of watching the champ picks before a match and hearing the announcer intone "Radiant's Turn To Pick... Hume" ... "Dire's Turn To Pick... Spinoza", because they do actually sound like champ names from some Mobas.

Then the in-game champ quips could be hilarious. 

Hegel: "Perhaps you two could find some middle ground." (two target champs warped to the midpoint between them)

Freud: "So, tell me about your mother." (target champ stunned for champ-specific time based on estimated trauma of background story)

Saxton Hale: "I'll tell you about your mother!"

(wait, how'd he get in here?)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: zespri on January 07, 2014, 03:07:29 PM
Heh. Hate to break it to you, but Schrodinger's not really a philosopher, Physics != philosophy ;) one is real the other imaginary ;)

That said a game of scientists versus philosophers would be fun!  Though Oppenheimer would be OP.

/derail
Hate to break it to you but he *was* a philosopher as well as physicist and his philosophical impact was quite significant. He also did do a few philosophical writings. And physics and philosophy is much closer that you would think. In a certain sense philosophy as much real as certain aspects of physics are "imaginary".

Take elementary particles - we can't see them with a microscope or experience them in any practical sense, all we have as the theory they fit into. Philosophy is about the same - we have some beliefs about thins around as and what we experience in life fit these beliefs .  Same thing, really.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 07, 2014, 09:09:40 PM
Quote
Take elementary particles - we can't see them with a microscope or experience them in any practical sense, all we have as the theory they fit into. Philosophy is about the same - we have some beliefs about thins around as and what we experience in life fit these beliefs .  Same thing, really.
Ehhhh...not really.

Science is eventually borne out of philosophy, but they are two completely different things. Science bases its theories on evidence, where philosophy is just conjecture. The only requirement for philosophy is that it stays within the bounds of logic, it is not concerned with evidence. This is why a philosophical argument can be logically sound, but still have no bearing on reality.

Granted, some scientific theories have a lot more evidence than others. However, even things like elementary particles have circumstantial and indirect evidence for them. True, we can't *see* them, but we can't see gravity either. Can you claim that theory has no evidence?

We can't see the particles but we heavily suspect they exist because of the influence they have on the particles we can observe. Dark matter is the same way. We have no idea what it is, but we know it exists because it exerts influence on the gravitation pull of observable star systems all over the Universe.

The branch of philosophy that makes evidence-based claims without any evidence is usually called religion, but most philosophy, good philosophy at least, stays within the bounds of logic.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on January 07, 2014, 10:06:48 PM
Plato: "Having just finished a game of dota, I began to realize it was really league of legends."


 >D
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on January 08, 2014, 01:26:48 AM
How....

How did this turn into a topic on philosophy and science?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on January 08, 2014, 08:46:17 AM
How....

How did this turn into a topic on philosophy and science?
Ult: Derail
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 08, 2014, 01:09:28 PM
It wouldn't be off-topic of the conversations didn't have a tendency to go well...off topic ;p
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 08, 2014, 02:01:58 PM
I'm sorry for sharing this, but I just geeked out so goddamn hard right now. They added a skin for Anubis in Smite, where he's the Jaffa Guard from SG-1. I geeked out REALLY hard when his ground-based AOE was a FREAKING STARGATE! *geekgasm*


Stargazer Anubis (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLLL2hFGGZ4)

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on January 08, 2014, 02:23:29 PM
Insta-kill is nice, but no one will stand still long enough for that last chevron to engage...
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 08, 2014, 02:40:26 PM
Insta-kill is nice, but no one will stand still long enough for that last chevron to engage...
Not sure what you mean by insta-kill there. But if you are referring to the OTHER Anubis who tried to escape into their base that I stunned and then ulted with my FACELASERthen yeah, he pretty much insta-died, but that was mostly due to his low health. Anubis' ult does retarded amounts of damage, but he's self-rooted for the duration, and it only does damage if you actually point it directly at something, so...It's fairly balanced.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on January 08, 2014, 02:44:49 PM
I've never played Smite, I was just joiking what it would be like to actually point a SG-1 stargate at someone in a game like that :)

If you could actually connect, it's all over.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 08, 2014, 03:28:16 PM
I've never played Smite, I was just joiking what it would be like to actually point a SG-1 stargate at someone in a game like that :)

If you could actually connect, it's all over.
OOOH! Iz dumb. Didn't make the connection there. My bad. :D
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 09, 2014, 06:43:46 AM
For those interested;  this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gON1VRAvIUw&feature=youtube_gdata_player) while old, gives a very good overview on Smite, its gameplay and its "champions".
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 09, 2014, 11:50:34 AM
For those interested;  this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gON1VRAvIUw&feature=youtube_gdata_player) whole old, gives a very good overview on Smite, its gameplay and its "champions".
I'll definitely give it a look!
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: tigersfan on January 09, 2014, 03:29:21 PM
For those interested;  this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gON1VRAvIUw&feature=youtube_gdata_player) whole old, gives a very good overview on Smite, its gameplay and its "champions".
I'll definitely give it a look!

Keep in mind while you do, that while virtually everything he says about mechanics and how the game works is correct, I think every single piece of art has been updated since then. It's rather a beautiful game these days.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 09, 2014, 08:32:46 PM
I'll definitely give it a look!

Keep in mind while you do, that while virtually everything he says about mechanics and how the game works is correct, I think every single piece of art has been updated since then. It's rather a beautiful game these days.
Most of the art, several of the gods and the map have changed many times over since then. Even a few items have changed, but the overal mechanics and style is still the same.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 11, 2014, 10:44:31 AM
By the way, since I haven't played Dota 2 enough, and haven't played LoL since FOREVER, how do abilities scale in those games? As I understand it Abilities (spells) are static in LoL and scale only be leveling them up and by buying items with "ability power" on them, am I correct? Are abilities in Dota 2 completely static and level only by leveling them up?
 
In Smite it works by splitting all gods (champs) into two categories: Magical and Physical. They deal and scale off their respective damage types. Magical users are generally Guardians (tanks) and pure casters, while physical users are Assassins, Hunters (ADC) and Warriors (Bruisers). Now the difference from at least LoL is that all your abilities have a base amount of stats that may either be completely static regardless of level (such as a slow, for instance. It's 20% and doesn't scale at all), or scales with level. So an ability might start off at 100 damage and scale up with level up to say 800 at level 5 (max ability level). In addition most abilites have "scaling" that adds a certain percentage from your physical/magical power stat. Abilities can never crit. Only autoattacks.
 
So as an example a physical character generally lives off of their auto attacks for damage and use their abilities for utility, CC, support, mobility etc. Some exceptions exist such as Loki who generally deals insane physical burst damage in a short time span with his abilities and finish off with AA.
 
Magic users tend to be for more bursty and almost all of their damage comes from their abilites, and as such, their abilities generally scale better compared to physical characters.
 
Naturally, there are several exceptions to this rule. Nu Wa, Zeus and Chronos are examples of very AA-centric mages and Thor, Loki and Hercules are very ability-focused physical fighters.
 
Quote from: Example skill
Unchained Key Bind: 1
Fenrir leaps forward, dealing damage to all enemies when he lands. At full runes, the leap stuns the enemies hit. If the leap hits a god, the cooldown is halved.

Ability: Line
Affects: Enemy
Damage: Physical
Damage: 95 / 155 / 215 / 275 / 335 (+80% of your physical power)
Stun: 1s Cost: 65 / 70 / 75 / 80 / 85
Cooldown: 15s
That's a typical example of a physical ability. 80% scaling is HUGE for a physical ability and most tend to hover around 50-60% if they are good. Magic abilities are often around 70-80% and in addition; magic power tends to scale a lot more into the end game. A fully built physical carry may have 200-240 physical power by the end game, while a nuke-built mage may be around 600-650 magical power.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: madcow on January 11, 2014, 11:23:49 AM
There's a pretty hilarious video I just watched (or skipped through at least) of Jesse Cox playing smite, and getting incredibly pissed off. It's pretty funny when he started obsessing over having an even K/D ratio.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kRIffip6YA

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 11, 2014, 11:30:20 AM
Goddamnit! I haven't had time to watch that one yet. I saw it in my sub box this morning just as I was heading out to work. It's still waiting for me when I get back.
 
K/D is really quite pointless to obsess over. As long as you aren't feeding your lane opponent, a few deaths here and there doesn't matter, and kills are less valuable than proper farm anyway.
 
EDIT: Just finished watching it. My god, where did he dig up that Davis guy? He's a complete and utter asshole who rages and BMs the entire game, complains about overpowered gods, but at the same time says "I don't know how she works". Gnn...I just wanted to punch him in the face. Such a complete dickbag. "Ugh, respawn timers are so DUMB!" Really?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 11, 2014, 01:40:10 PM
By the way, since I haven't played Dota 2 enough, and haven't played LoL since FOREVER, how do abilities scale in those games? As I understand it Abilities (spells) are static in LoL and scale only be leveling them up and by buying items with "ability power" on them, am I correct? Are abilities in Dota 2 completely static and level only by leveling them up?
 
In Smite it works by splitting all gods (champs) into two categories: Magical and Physical. They deal and scale off their respective damage types. Magical users are generally Guardians (tanks) and pure casters, while physical users are Assassins, Hunters (ADC) and Warriors (Bruisers). Now the difference from at least LoL is that all your abilities have a base amount of stats that may either be completely static regardless of level (such as a slow, for instance. It's 20% and doesn't scale at all), or scales with level. So an ability might start off at 100 damage and scale up with level up to say 800 at level 5 (max ability level). In addition most abilites have "scaling" that adds a certain percentage from your physical/magical power stat. Abilities can never crit. Only autoattacks.
 
So as an example a physical character generally lives off of their auto attacks for damage and use their abilities for utility, CC, support, mobility etc. Some exceptions exist such as Loki who generally deals insane physical burst damage in a short time span with his abilities and finish off with AA.
 
Magic users tend to be for more bursty and almost all of their damage comes from their abilites, and as such, their abilities generally scale better compared to physical characters.
 
Naturally, there are several exceptions to this rule. Nu Wa, Zeus and Chronos are examples of very AA-centric mages and Thor, Loki and Hercules are very ability-focused physical fighters.
 
Quote from: Example skill
Unchained Key Bind: 1
Fenrir leaps forward, dealing damage to all enemies when he lands. At full runes, the leap stuns the enemies hit. If the leap hits a god, the cooldown is halved.

Ability: Line
Affects: Enemy
Damage: Physical
Damage: 95 / 155 / 215 / 275 / 335 (+80% of your physical power)
Stun: 1s Cost: 65 / 70 / 75 / 80 / 85
Cooldown: 15s
That's a typical example of a physical ability. 80% scaling is HUGE for a physical ability and most tend to hover around 50-60% if they are good. Magic abilities are often around 70-80% and in addition; magic power tends to scale a lot more into the end game. A fully built physical carry may have 200-240 physical power by the end game, while a nuke-built mage may be around 600-650 magical power.
In DotA, abilities typically don't scale with items, unless you include Aghanim's Scepter.  A physical carry's abilities indirectly levels up with items, but not in a literal sense (in other words, if you have an ability giving you 100% extra attack speed, the more damage you build, the more effective that will be).

However, DotA is balanced in this fashion, and I think it allows for much more diversity and individualism among heroes than at least League of Legends.

Why?

Because by making it so that abilities don't directly scale with items, you can have a huge impact on at what time in the game each hero is the most powerful. The problem with League of Legends, at least in my experience, is that basically any champion can carry. Given enough farm, it doesn't matter if they deal AP or AD, they can do insane amounts of damage. Yet, to counter-balance this design philosophy, all heroes typically have to be nerfed to some extent.

In DotA, it's exactly the opposite. If you're a magic dealer, you WILL fall off after a certain point. It doesn't matter how much farm you have, or how many levels ahead you are, your abilities don't scale that well, and you'll eventually be defeated by heroes who do.

So why is this important? Because you can dictate at which time any given hero peaks within the game. Intelligence heroes are the most powerful early on in DotA. That's because, in spite of the fact that their abilities don't scale with items that well, they scale regularly (through levels) incredibly well.  With often just 1 point in these abilities, you have a massive advantage of your lategame carry counterparts. With 4 points in these abilities, you can often kill them from full health to zero early to mid game. Strength heroes typically peak and are most effective in the mid game. Agility heroes are usually the most powerful in the late game.

So what's so awesome about this particular system is that you can build a team to focus on a particular part of the game. Do you want to win in the lategame? Pick a team of carries with a couple supports. Want to win the midgame? Pick some good strength initiators and some soft carries to demolish the enemy when your team "peaks". Want to be decent all game long? Build a balanced team of INT, STR, and AGI heroes. Having options like this (the ability to dominate a certain point of the game) is something that simply isn't possible in MOBAs like LoL in my experience. When basically every hero can be powerful at any point of the game, it actually takes away from the potential options your team has to succeed.

People who call DotA a "game of carries", calling carries overpowered and impossible to defeat because they always win in the lategame and casters don't scale blah blah blah, simply don't understand DotA. A full team of casters (so no carries whatsoever) is EXTREMELY powerful, and can win you the game within the first 20 minutes. Don't believe me? Look at the statistics (http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/10/18/dota-2-data-yields-ideal-team-composition/). Of all team compositions in DotA, this is the most effective statistically speaking. This is because intelligence heroes are able to use their early game dominance to shut down the other team so hard that they can't recover before the game ends. Unfortunately, team compositions like this simply aren't possible in any of the other MOBA designs I've seen.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 11, 2014, 02:40:19 PM
Those statistics really don't show much more than what every MOBA player already knows: CC is king.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 11, 2014, 03:13:40 PM
Those statistics really don't show much more than what every MOBA player already knows: CC is king.
True but in DotA the carries typically don't get the CC ;p

That's one way in which the casters are kept useful throughout the game, even if their DPS falls off later on.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on January 17, 2014, 09:50:11 PM
I know it sucks to be a single gamer but DAMN.


I looked at the gallery. I think that if the topic of your post was about the gift you received, a picture showing the gift probably would have sufficed. The multiple pictures of the same thing and then finally your girlfriend at the end, it seems to me like you wanted to share a little bit more than just the doll. Which opens it up to the usual Internet trolling.


I am not a single gamer (have an awesome girlfriend), so my reply here is not out of jealousy.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 18, 2014, 12:08:32 AM
I know it sucks to be a single gamer but DAMN.


I looked at the gallery. I think that if the topic of your post was about the gift you received, a picture showing the gift probably would have sufficed. The multiple pictures of the same thing and then finally your girlfriend at the end, it seems to me like you wanted to share a little bit more than just the doll. Which opens it up to the usual Internet trolling.


I am not a single gamer (have an awesome girlfriend), so my reply here is not out of jealousy.
Errr, it was really well made and had a lot of attention to detail. I was simply trying to get all the angles, not make people jealous.

I snapped a shot of her at the end because she's the one who made it, and I feel like any artist deserves credit for their work. It didn't even look like she was posing or anything, you couldn't see half her body, she had no makeup, we had just spent like 18 hours in a hospital.

I know you like to play the Devil's Advocate in these scenarios but if the gamer community gets butthurt whenever you take a snapshot of the artist for any given piece of work, that's their problem.

The topic btw was: "Look what my girlfriend made me for New Years..."
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on January 18, 2014, 10:27:04 AM
Thanks ;preplying with comments like "that last picture wasn't necessary" and "somebody looks sick".


Quote from: Wingflier

[size=78%]It didn't even look like she was posing or anything[/size]


Some disagree with you. Anyway, just giving you an idea of how it may come across.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 18, 2014, 12:50:23 PM
Thanks ;preplying with comments like "that last picture wasn't necessary" and "somebody looks sick".


Quote from: Wingflier

[size=78%]It didn't even look like she was posing or anything[/size]


Some disagree with you. Anyway, just giving you an idea of how it may come across.
I guess we can only look at things from our perspective. If I were girlfriendless and somebody made a similar gallery I certainly wouldn't be bothered by it. Then again I know what the average DotA player is like so I guess I shouldn't be as surprised as I was.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on January 19, 2014, 03:33:48 AM
By the way, since I haven't played Dota 2 enough, and haven't played LoL since FOREVER, how do abilities scale in those games? As I understand it Abilities (spells) are static in LoL and scale only be leveling them up and by buying items with "ability power" on them, am I correct? Are abilities in Dota 2 completely static and level only by leveling them up?
 
In Smite it works by splitting all gods (champs) into two categories: Magical and Physical. They deal and scale off their respective damage types. Magical users are generally Guardians (tanks) and pure casters, while physical users are Assassins, Hunters (ADC) and Warriors (Bruisers). Now the difference from at least LoL is that all your abilities have a base amount of stats that may either be completely static regardless of level (such as a slow, for instance. It's 20% and doesn't scale at all), or scales with level. So an ability might start off at 100 damage and scale up with level up to say 800 at level 5 (max ability level). In addition most abilites have "scaling" that adds a certain percentage from your physical/magical power stat. Abilities can never crit. Only autoattacks.
 
So as an example a physical character generally lives off of their auto attacks for damage and use their abilities for utility, CC, support, mobility etc. Some exceptions exist such as Loki who generally deals insane physical burst damage in a short time span with his abilities and finish off with AA.
 
Magic users tend to be for more bursty and almost all of their damage comes from their abilites, and as such, their abilities generally scale better compared to physical characters.
 
Naturally, there are several exceptions to this rule. Nu Wa, Zeus and Chronos are examples of very AA-centric mages and Thor, Loki and Hercules are very ability-focused physical fighters.
 
Quote from: Example skill
Unchained Key Bind: 1
Fenrir leaps forward, dealing damage to all enemies when he lands. At full runes, the leap stuns the enemies hit. If the leap hits a god, the cooldown is halved.

Ability: Line
Affects: Enemy
Damage: Physical
Damage: 95 / 155 / 215 / 275 / 335 (+80% of your physical power)
Stun: 1s Cost: 65 / 70 / 75 / 80 / 85
Cooldown: 15s
That's a typical example of a physical ability. 80% scaling is HUGE for a physical ability and most tend to hover around 50-60% if they are good. Magic abilities are often around 70-80% and in addition; magic power tends to scale a lot more into the end game. A fully built physical carry may have 200-240 physical power by the end game, while a nuke-built mage may be around 600-650 magical power.
In DotA, abilities typically don't scale with items, unless you include Aghanim's Scepter.  A physical carry's abilities indirectly levels up with items, but not in a literal sense (in other words, if you have an ability giving you 100% extra attack speed, the more damage you build, the more effective that will be).

However, DotA is balanced in this fashion, and I think it allows for much more diversity and individualism among heroes than at least League of Legends.

Why?

Because by making it so that abilities don't directly scale with items, you can have a huge impact on at what time in the game each hero is the most powerful. The problem with League of Legends, at least in my experience, is that basically any champion can carry. Given enough farm, it doesn't matter if they deal AP or AD, they can do insane amounts of damage. Yet, to counter-balance this design philosophy, all heroes typically have to be nerfed to some extent.

In DotA, it's exactly the opposite. If you're a magic dealer, you WILL fall off after a certain point. It doesn't matter how much farm you have, or how many levels ahead you are, your abilities don't scale that well, and you'll eventually be defeated by heroes who do.

So why is this important? Because you can dictate at which time any given hero peaks within the game. Intelligence heroes are the most powerful early on in DotA. That's because, in spite of the fact that their abilities don't scale with items that well, they scale regularly (through levels) incredibly well.  With often just 1 point in these abilities, you have a massive advantage of your lategame carry counterparts. With 4 points in these abilities, you can often kill them from full health to zero early to mid game. Strength heroes typically peak and are most effective in the mid game. Agility heroes are usually the most powerful in the late game.

So what's so awesome about this particular system is that you can build a team to focus on a particular part of the game. Do you want to win in the lategame? Pick a team of carries with a couple supports. Want to win the midgame? Pick some good strength initiators and some soft carries to demolish the enemy when your team "peaks". Want to be decent all game long? Build a balanced team of INT, STR, and AGI heroes. Having options like this (the ability to dominate a certain point of the game) is something that simply isn't possible in MOBAs like LoL in my experience. When basically every hero can be powerful at any point of the game, it actually takes away from the potential options your team has to succeed.

People who call DotA a "game of carries", calling carries overpowered and impossible to defeat because they always win in the lategame and casters don't scale blah blah blah, simply don't understand DotA. A full team of casters (so no carries whatsoever) is EXTREMELY powerful, and can win you the game within the first 20 minutes. Don't believe me? Look at the statistics (http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/10/18/dota-2-data-yields-ideal-team-composition/). Of all team compositions in DotA, this is the most effective statistically speaking. This is because intelligence heroes are able to use their early game dominance to shut down the other team so hard that they can't recover before the game ends. Unfortunately, team compositions like this simply aren't possible in any of the other MOBA designs I've seen.

Hmmm, I have to say, in other games of this sort, it usually actually doesnt work this way.

The reason:  You can modify stats with items all you want, but the STARTING stats will always be what they are, and the character's skillset will remain what it is no matter what.  If a character is built up for, say, jungling, with starting stats and a skillset to match, then yes, you COULD modify them with specific items to knock them into a different role, but.... chances are, you'll be playing a very mediocre version of that role, since the character is totally geared towards the jungling role.  Wheras if you take that same jungler, and focus on stuff for jungling, you have a powerful jungler.

And Dota's lack of heroes being able to do multiple roles very well can make for some trouble in and of itself as well.   For example, I really dont like playing mid.  Not one bit.  At all.  Wont do it.  What this essentially means, is that there are certain heroes I will *never* use, ever, because they're pretty much JUST for that one role, and tend to blow goat chunks in any other role.   Characters in LoL or other games I'm familiar with generally actually ARENT good in every single role, usually it's more like 2 possible good ones, but what this means is that there really arent many that are good for ONLY one thing.  It also means that if there's a character I really like using, but the usual role I like to use them in is taken by someone else, chances are I've got one other possible role that they could work well in.  I dont have to limit my choices this way.

Same goes with the "characters in other games are powerful all the time, they dont fall off".  This is only true if you're stacking a ton of ability power items.... and if you're absurdly focused on just that stat, you're probably going to be dead really often. 


All of this of course is very dependant on the individual game.   I'm familiar with quite a bunch of these games by now, and all of this varies alot from one to the other. 

In the end though, I personally dont find any specific approach to this to be better/worse than any other.... it ends up just being about personal preference.  Or in my case, what mood I happen to be in.  As always, I still have a bloody hard time deciding which game in this genre I like most.   Which is fine by me, really....
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 19, 2014, 02:08:10 PM
Smite is extremely flexible that way. Sometimes you have teams where you have no idea at all who is going to end up in which lane. You have mages that play support, you have tanks that jungle, tanks that solo, bruisers who support, assassins that mid...You never ever know.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 23, 2014, 12:45:23 PM
Hey guys, since a lot of us here are MOBA players, I was thinking of a fun activity. I've never played SMITE and I haven't kept up with the latest LoL heroes, so I a fun/interesting activity would be for all of us to list our favorite 3 heroes, explain why they are so fun, what's unique about them, what they add to the team/game, and why you feel that their design is fantastic. I think it will be an entertaining project for each of us, and also hopefully help us learn more about the other games. Adding a link to the hero would be nice too so others can look up more information about it if they desire.

This is difficult for me because my "favorite 3 heroes" is constantly changing based on whatever mood I'm in, but these are my current favorites (at least for this week :D)

1. Pugna (http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Pugna)
Role: Anti-caster, pusher, aoe nuker.
Unique attributes: Pugna is a fantastic anti-caster with his unique ability, Nether Ward. In my opinion this is the most interesting and unique thing about him (but by far not the only one). Nether Ward, once placed, deals damage to enemies in a huge radius each time they use mana, based on how much mana they used. As you can probably guess, this means that the more mana your opponent(s) use, the more they damage themselves. This makes Pugna a wonderful counter to caster or mana-based teams. Every time a fight breaks out, the enemy caster must decide whether to cast their spells and badly damage themselves, or wait until the Nether Ward is destroyed and/or they are out of its radius of effect. The reason I like this skill so much is because it's so unique to the genre. The enemy player has to make the precarious decision on whether hurting themselves is worth the cost of destroying the enemy. I've always liked this type of mechanic ever since the Mesmer class of Guild Wars 1. It's a sort of psychological warfare that you rarely see in competitive multiplayer games.

His other super unique ability is his ultimate, the aptly named Life Drain. Life Drain is simple, it continually drains life from an opponent each second until the opponent walks out of range or you become stun/silenced. It is unique however, on Pugna. Pugna is one of the squishiest heroes in the game, with an abysmal strength and armor gain. It is quite common to be killed from full health to nil before a single disable even ends. However, are you to survive long enough to react, and if the correct situation presents itself, you can literally steal health from a single opponent *faster* than the enemy team can even kill you. It's one of the most risky/hilarious abilities I've ever seen in the competitive gaming world.

Strengths:Great pushing power. Has one of the only magical nukes in the game that also deals damage to towers. Lots of AoE damage in team fights between his nuke and his Nether Ward. Can prevent a unit from attacking and being attacked, while also amplifying their magic damage taken for several seconds. This can be used to hinder enemies or save allies (or nuke somebody into freaking oblivion). His ult can make him very "tanky" in the right situation.

Weaknesses:Very situational. Not as great against teams without casters. Extremely squishy. Needs decent farm to succeed. Ultimate easy to interrupt. Nether Ward can be killed. His Banish skill which makes a target unattackable for several seconds can actually hurt your team more than help if used incorrectly.

Phew, that was longer than I expected. I guess I'll start with one and let other people do some of theirs before I continue.

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 23, 2014, 09:49:11 PM
Right sure, here's mine then. Obviously Smite champions (gods).



1. Kali (http://www.smitefire.com/smite/god/kali-20)
Role: Assassin (single target nuker, melee carry)
Unique attributes: Kali is a hypercarry meaning that her early game is absolutely abysmal and needs a lot of farm before she can start getting useful. She's your typical jungler, or ganker/initiator in Arena/Joust. Kali is extremely strong in 1v1 and there are few gods that have the stamina, defense and damage to stand up to her if she catches you.


What is so unique about Kali is her passive: A random opposing god is chosen and "Marked for Death". Kali gets added physical penetration (reduces enemy defenses) against her target, and if she lands the killing blow on the target she heals for 80% of her maximum health and recieves a 25% gold bonus for that kill. This makes her insanely good for tower diving and for taking out enemy carries, nukers and mages (provided they are her target of course). Targets change if Kali is slain (changes to the god that got killing blow on her) or if her target dies for whatever reason.


In addition, Kali's ultimate renders her immortal for 5 seconds. She can be reduced to 1 HP and stunned. She is however completely immune to all other forms of CC and cannot die until her ultimate ends. This in combination with her passive makes her even more excellent at diving towers. She can go in, regardless of HP levels, pop her ultimate and burst her target down, instantly healing for 80% of her HP, and get out ready to gank her next target.


Strengths: A skillset that matches her role extremely well. All abilites are useful in one way or another; A closing/healing jump/escape, a ranged bleed for finishing targets, or giving her lifesteal against a sturdier target, an AoE stun with a physical power buff, and her insane combo of ultimate+passive. She absolutely SHREDS even tanky targets due to her wicked penetration. Her hit progression of 1x, 0.5x, 0.5x leaves her with the ability of really utilizing "on hit" effects since these are not diminished by the half duration/half damage swings. With attack speed, she becomes a literal blender of death. End game there is nothing that stands up to a Kali 1v1 unless they utilize a lot of survivability items or have oodles of CC.


Weakness: One of the worst early games in the entire game. She is weak, slow and has apalling attack speed early game. She's extremely reliant on her team mates and on good farm in the jungle early on. In solo lane (short lane) she holds up better due to having decent clear, but she must absolutely get Hand of the Gods (an aoe damage item that damages only minions) to manage early game. Her poke is also pretty bad as her only ranged ability are her thrown blades that are difficult to aim and don't really do substantial enough damage. She's easily avoided if the team is warding well and have CC prepared for when she ults.  Squishy if focused, since she barely ever builds defense.





2. Anubis (http://www.smitefire.com/smite/god/anubis-6)
Role: Magical assassin, zoner
Unique attributes: Anubis is the epitome of magical burst damage. Get caught in his stun and you are lucky if you live by the time it's over. Anubis abilities are incredibly powerful and rivals most other mages in raw damage output. Every single one of his abilities are DoTs (damage over time) and every tick of damage steals magical protection from the target and buffs Anubis for a few seconds. This makes items that stack damage or stack penetration very good on Anubis, and he's often seen with a penetration and lifesteal heavy build to utilize his passive to the fullest.


Strengths: Absolutely insane damage output. Even without his ultimate, Anubis can kill most other gods with his abilities alone during a single stun (2 seconds at max rank). His combo usually consists of putting his 3 (Grasping Hands, groundbased AOE) under their feet, instantly stunning them with 2 and use his 1 to finish them while they are stunned in his AoE. If his ultimate is up, he uses that and he's more or less guaranteed a kill unless the target is super fed or super tanky.


Weakness: Anubis' two main damaging abilities root him in place while he channels them. This makes him very poor for mobility and team fights as he is easily focused down and easy to hit when he's rooting himself. He's very reliant on hitting his stun for maximum damage as players usually run away from his ground AoE, and thus also his 1 while he's channeling them, if he misses his stun. He's also hard countered by either Aegis (2 second invulnerability) or Purification Beads (clears all CC and makes you immune to new sources of CC for a few seconds) as both negate him his stun+damage combo. Without his abilities Anubis is pitiful and his basic attacks are very slow and hit for very low numbers even late game. His ultimate is easily dodged unless you are stunned or rooted, as it's a very narrow channeled ability.



3. Chang'e (http://www.smitefire.com/smite/god/change-40)
Role: Magical bruiser, support mage, initiator, healer.
Strengths: Chang'e is almost ungankable. Every single one of her abilities grant her a +25% move speed buff for 1 second when used, and her 2 (Moonlit Waltz) renders her completely invulnerable for 1 second, in addition to restoring mana for each hit taken, and in addition to the move speed buff. She lacks the powerful heals of Aphrodite and Hel, but seeing as she is so mobile, agile and deals so much damage on low cooldowns, she makes for an absolute menace in team fights. Dancing in and out of the battle, applying damage to everyone near her, debuffs their healing and heals her team mates she is an absolute nightmare. Her ultimate is borderline broken as it's a wide forward skillshot that will stun everyone hit by it and do a ton of damage late game. Every god is stunned for 1 second + 1 second for every god stunned prior. If you hit their entire team, the last poor bastard hit will sit there helpless for FIVE seconds. Anyone who plays MOBAs knows that 5 seconds is an eternity. Especially so in such a fast paced game as Smite.


In addition, her Jade Rabbit can go back to the Well and buy items for her, similar to the Courier in games such as DotA. She is unique to have such an ability in Smite. Granted, the Rabbit can only buy one item at a time, and only one level of said item. But this gives her unprecendented lane presense as she, quite literally, never needs to go out of the lane.


Weakness: Chang'e really doesn't have many glaring weaknesses. She is not a pure support mage due to lacking any kind of buffs or pure support abilities. Her heals are more a sustain tool than a really powerful team fightning ability. If used in solo or mid, her clear is absolutely monstrous after a few levels as her 1, a cone shaped sweeping attack, can hit an entire minion wave, including the opposing god, if placed correctly. If ganked, she can simply become invulnerable, drop a stun of doom on the jungler and just dance out of the lane, laughing all the way.


These are my current favourite gods in Smite. Kali because she just destroys people late game and fits comfortably either in solo lane as a bruiser or jungle as pure ganker. Anubis because he's just freaking AMAZINGLY fun to play in addition to having one of the sexiest skins in the game (Stargate Anubis <3). Anubis is also extremely flexible in casual games and can go mid, solo, jungle or even support. He's rarely seen as support due to his lack of support abilities, but the damage he can put out makes him + ADC a really scary proposition to go up against.


Chang'e is a recent love of mine after I've seen her played successfully by streamers and in tournaments. She has a great kit albeit a bit hard to learn how to utilize to max. Her ultimate is an AMAZING initiator. Find a good spot to launch that into the enemy team, pop your active Heavenly Agility (gives everyone 40% speed boost for 5 seconds) and just lead your team mates into a fight where the enemy team is ill equipped to fight. She's just borderline broken, but still not so overpowered that you feel dirty for playing her. She can be shut down, but the team needs to work together and be familiar with her playstyle, or she will absolutely wreck your day.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 25, 2014, 01:30:12 PM
Pugna sounds somewhat broken if he's laned up against a caster. Drop that Nether Ward and have free poke forever. I'm guessing it's just my limited understanding of DotA that makes me think that way though. Otherwise the concept of mana burn is a cool one and not something that has made its way into Smite yet. The most we have are reflective spells or reflective armor yet.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 26, 2014, 09:11:26 AM
Sorry for not responding sooner, the last few days have been SUPER FREAKIN BUSY!

Kali sounds really interesting, I like her style. "All or nothing" is often one of my favorite design philosophies. It sounds like the player using Kali has to be really careful early on, only engaging when they know they have an advantage, or when they have a powerful ally helping them. However, if she can make it to the mid-late game, she can wreck people in the right situation. I'm not sure how to feel about the random "Marked for Death" mechanic, but it would probably be too powerful if you could choose your target for it. Actually I think I really like that. She's basically got Tryndamere's ult from LoL, which is fine I guess, it's a pretty common ability in all 3 games appearing in various ways. Very cool.

Anubis is also neat. I was surprised how he could kill someone from full to zero in one combo. I didn't expect that kind of lethality in SMITE. One of the main complaints of LoL players is that DotA is too lethal, in that a single hero can kill you from full to dead even early on, where in LoL this is much more difficult without the help of teammates (especially with mechanics like Flash). It's nice to see that SMITE made it possible to do this. His squishiness and lack of escape mechanism seems to be the balancing mechanism for this guy, pretty awesome. Also the "Aegis" item, wow! Impressive thing to put into the game.

Chang'e sounds cool as well. Jack-of-all trades, master of none? I also like her ult, the wide, positionally-based stun that is more effective the more people you hit. Sounds like a great initiation ability or a way to turn teamfights around dramatically. I also like how you say she "dances" in and out of battle. I guess I'd have to play the game to actually understand that but it sounds cool.

I definitely have a lot more respect for SMITE after I read about some of its heroes and design philosophies.

Concerning Pugna, Nether Ward isn't particularly broken in the lane, in fact it's usually not even used there. Unlike in LoL (or SMITE it sounds like), a player doesn't typically need to use spells in the lane to survive or do well. A person can last hit simply using their autoattack and still rack up a lot of gold and denies. Spells can sometimes be using for clearing or harassing the enemy, but are not generally necessary for killing minions of you are good at last hitting. In addition, Nether Ward has a period of time between when it ends and when the cooldown comes off, that it no longer exists. (Maybe 15 seconds?) So the opponent can simply use their spells during this time. Also, it becomes much more powerful each level, it's not nearly as strong at level 1 as it would be level 4. Typically, you're much better off leveling your nuke early on for pushing or harassing purposes, or to guard against a heavy push lineup. His aoe nuke is simply an amazing ability.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on January 26, 2014, 09:42:50 AM
Pugna sounds somewhat broken if he's laned up against a caster. Drop that Nether Ward and have free poke forever. I'm guessing it's just my limited understanding of DotA that makes me think that way though. Otherwise the concept of mana burn is a cool one and not something that has made its way into Smite yet. The most we have are reflective spells or reflective armor yet.

Nah, he's not broken.  He can be pretty effective when you know how to use him, and has one of the very few spells that's capable of damaging enemy towers/structures.... most spells (nearly all of them) that do damage cannot damage structures of any type, which seems to be the case in most Mobas. 

Pugna is tough to use though.  The Nether Ward can simply be smashed if the opponent knows where it is, Pugna himself tends to have little health, and his ultimate is a channeled spell, which obviously comes with plenty of risk like any channeled spell does. Not to mention that the ward is mostly to counter casters.... it'll do little against enemy carries or anyone not using spells very much.  It only takes 3 hits from any type of attack by a hero to destroy it.  One plus though is it also fires when items are activated.  Definitely a strong ability.  But yeah.... he's so squishy.... and that ultimate is very situational.  If an enemy carry gets too close, he can go splat very, very fast.

He's fun though.


Now..... let's see.... if I had to chose my 3 current favorites....


1.  Zeri, from Dawngate

Ok, it didn't take too long for this one to become my current favorite.  She's a support character, but not quite the usual type.  Firstly, she can actually take some hits without immediately melting.  Secondly, her abilities can do some decent damage, particularly if you build her offensively. Thirdly, her special trait is that she has no mana bar.... all of her abilities simply cost nothing. 

Her abilities are good too.  There's a basic ranged AoE that does damage and slows, a very versatile ability that's great for constant poking, which is something she's excellent at, there's also a good basic silence spell, and an ultimate that shields/heals a teammate (or herself) while putting this sorta whirlwind-looking aura around them that causes them to constantly suck mana out of anyone close enough.  But most interesting is her other spell.   She can target an ally and send this butterfly thing to basically just stick to them for a really long period, and what it does is that it gives them a bonus to all of their stats that are based on a percentage of hers.  Which means that YOUR build can affect your teammate that you're targeting, which can be.... interesting.  The butterfly can be retargeted at any time. 

Also, her weapon is paint.  I figure it's probably pretty embarrassing to be defeated by someone who is attacking you by throwing blobs of colorful paint at you, as opposed to swords or lasers or something.   She can be built up rather tanky or offensively, but her best role is still a sort of aggressive, poke-tastic support.


2. Dazzle, from Dota

Ahhh, this one is fun.  What really gets me about this guy is his ultimate.  Love it.   Does something different based on who it hits.... if it hits an ally, it gives them armor.  If it hits an enemy, it takes away armor.  It does this not all at once, but over the course of a few seconds.  Lasts about 20 seconds, which is basically a million years in this game.  Hits a really massive size area in an AoE, and is ranged, it doesnt just fire with him as the center or something.  Fires instantly and is very easy to land properly.

There's also Shallow Grave, which is a very unique ability.  All it does is make it's target utterly unkillable for 5 seconds.  They can still be damaged.... but they cannot die. It's a difficult spell to use properly, as while it's extremely effective and useful, knowing when to use it and who to use it on isnt always so simple.

His other abilities are good too;  a nice simple but useful slow, which is pretty strong, and a funky heal that will chain to targets near whoever you cast it on.  This includes enemies, but when it chains to them it'll deal damage instead.  It's pretty hilarious to get a kill with what is mainly used as a simple healing spell.


3.  Soraka, from LoL.

Yeah, I tried to think of a character that WASNT a support type, and I couldnt think of any.... my favorites are all that role.  I do that role alot, mainly so that someone is doing that role, haha.  I figure, if I want it done right (or at all) I'll bloody well do it myself.  It works out well anyway.... I'm best in a defensive role in these games because of my reaction speed and the speed at which I process everything that's happening all at once.   Typically, I'm not easy to kill and will very often dodge or warp or whatever out of the way of incoming attacks, or hit allies with shields/heals/stuff as a spell comes at them, or do other more complicated things.  So, support is my most common role.


Soraka in particular is.... simple.  She's a healer.  That's what she does.  And she's GOOD at it.

Oh, she can do some damage with her funky starfall skill or whatever it's called, which hits every target nearby instantly, doing damage and lowering their armor/resistance (I forget which), and also has a super-low cooldown, and stacks.... but while that spell is good, it's her others that make her useful. She's got a basic heal, which is a pretty good one, she has another spell that refills the target's mana instead of health, and can be used on enemies to silence them instead, and also a team heal, which has global range and hits the whole team, firing instantly, even hitting teammates that are untargetable for whatever reason.

In other words, she keeps her allies alive (usually sticking near the carry the entire time in my case) while being REALLY IRRITATING.   Taking the Summoner Spells that heal and refill mana to everyone nearby just makes her even more annoying to deal with.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 26, 2014, 12:34:06 PM
Quote
1.  Zeri, from Dawngate
How is Dawngate by the way? I haven't heard anything about it.

Quote
2. Dazzle, from Dota

Ahhh, this one is fun.  What really gets me about this guy is his ultimate.  Love it.   Does something different based on who it hits.... if it hits an ally, it gives them armor.  If it hits an enemy, it takes away armor.  It does this not all at once, but over the course of a few seconds.  Lasts about 20 seconds, which is basically a million years in this game.  Hits a really massive size area in an AoE, and is ranged, it doesnt just fire with him as the center or something.  Fires instantly and is very easy to land properly.

There's also Shallow Grave, which is a very unique ability.  All it does is make it's target utterly unkillable for 5 seconds.  They can still be damaged.... but they cannot die. It's a difficult spell to use properly, as while it's extremely effective and useful, knowing when to use it and who to use it on isnt always so simple.

His other abilities are good too;  a nice simple but useful slow, which is pretty strong, and a funky heal that will chain to targets near whoever you cast it on.  This includes enemies, but when it chains to them it'll deal damage instead.  It's pretty hilarious to get a kill with what is mainly used as a simple healing spell.
Dazzle (http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Dazzle) is surprisingly underused considering how great of a hero he is. His ultimate can change entire team fights if it lasts long enough. It's situational but still amazing if used right.

Slardar + Dazzle is one of the most amazing lane combos in my opinion. It's pretty strong in the lane but even more powerful as the game goes on. With Slardar's single target armor reduction and Dazzle's massive aoe armor reduction, you can bring even the toughest, hardened enemies to their knees.

Dazzle's shallow grave, which is a REGULAR SKILL that gives the target a 5 second immunity from DEATH is incredible, but sometimes difficult to time. Also, I feel like you're underrating his slow. Not only is it a slow, but at level 4 a double stun. I consider it one of the best single target disables in the game, the projectile is nearly instant and basically impossible to dodge.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on January 26, 2014, 03:09:56 PM
Dawngate assumes their audience has never held a mouse or played a game in their life.
http://www.waystonegames.com/#/mediaGallery (http://www.waystonegames.com/#/mediaGallery)


To attack, right-click your enemy and you will perform a melee or ranged attack depending on... whether you are melee or ranged. ::)
Move your mouse to the edge of the screen and your camera will move. ???

My mind is blown.
>:(

Thank you for treating your customer like we haven't seen a computer since the early 80s. I actually insta-closed that website. Completely turned off. How good can a game be if we are still working on how to move the mouse?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 26, 2014, 03:56:50 PM
Holy cow, its art style looks just like League of Legends.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on January 27, 2014, 04:18:51 AM
Dawngate assumes their audience has never held a mouse or played a game in their life.
http://www.waystonegames.com/#/mediaGallery (http://www.waystonegames.com/#/mediaGallery)


To attack, right-click your enemy and you will perform a melee or ranged attack depending on... whether you are melee or ranged. ::)
Move your mouse to the edge of the screen and your camera will move. ???

My mind is blown.
>:(

Thank you for treating your customer like we haven't seen a computer since the early 80s. I actually insta-closed that website. Completely turned off. How good can a game be if we are still working on how to move the mouse?

Sadly, at this point, I think it's starting to become the sort of thing that seems a good idea to some developers (or probably to the corporate idiots in charge) that they make their tutorials as absolutely braindead easy to understand as possible.  Such is the gaming landscape currently.  PARTICULARLY if the new player is traditionally a console gamer.  All of the console gamers I personally know can barely find their way into Windows, let alone achieve quick understanding of such concepts as this.  Three guesses as to who gets to fix ALL of the computer problems that ever arise for that group.  Hint, it's me.  Bah.   

And you'd be surprised just how many PC gamers there are that DONT know how this sort of camera movement (or even character movement) works.  I often hear "why cant I move the character/camera with WASD like GOOD games do?" from people.  Even stupider, a few times I've heard that question, but with "WASD" replaced with "arrow keys".   I try not to think about that one too hard, lest IQ points dribble out my ears.  Games like Path of Exile and such get these questions/complaints as well.    Or you get the players that dont know what hotkeys are, and will go into this and try to CLICK on the ability icons every time they want to cast.  I know 2 people who do exactly this.  It's bad enough grouping with them in an MMO (argh).  I dont even bother trying to get them to play one of THESE games.  Or mention that they exist.   So yeah..... there's real reason for the "assume your new player is dumber than a sack of hammers" approach. 

I wouldnt let that tutorial thing turn you off instantly though.   That bloody stupid tutorial is deceptive, and bloody stupid.  I do have to wonder who on the team made that, or if it was a "corporate moron" idea.   The game is just as bloody complicated as any of the other mobas.  So you go from THAT, to the usual moba learning curve from hell. Which if you think about it, makes it a learning right angle, instead of a curve.  Frankly, whoever made that tutorial should probably not be working there any more.  What I said about the gaming landscape is true, but.... some games are an exception.  Like Dwarf Fortress.  That one wouldnt just be a right angle, it'd be a catapult that launches you in the opposite direction directly into a pit of spiders when you try to walk over it.

I of course wouldnt be playing this at all if it actually was truly dumbed down at all, since I tend to hate that very idea.   The complexity is one of the reasons I got into the genre in the first place.  Also wouldnt be playing it if I didn't like the game mechanics.


Holy cow, its art style looks just like League of Legends.

Yeah.  That's something I've noticed about pretty much ALL of the mobas I've seen up to this point.  They all have that sort of art style.  Except that LoL's overall look tends to come out being much "darker", if that makes sense, than any of the others.

The only exception might be Infinite Crisis, which looks a bit different..... but also looks a bit bland.  To me, anyway.



Anyway, as to what I think of it, I've been loving it so far.

The game does away with the usual and overused trilane setup, and goes with a dual-lane map instead. There's the usual "boss" monster right in the very center of the map, with jungle around, and there's jungle off to the sides, with these "spirit wells" near the corners.   And of course jungle mob camps in various locations.

The spirit wells are an interesting concept, and they give another map objective that isnt just the boss or travelling to gank someone.  It's hard for me to explain exactly how they work without either getting the explanation wrong, or just making it sound confusing, easier to just look it up.  I like this mechanic though.  Their existence creates more reason to move around the map.  I find that even as a support I have to travel the map way more often than I do in LoL (a good thing) for a variety of reasons.

There's also the wards.  In this game, EVERYONE is expected to use wards, this being because there are no ward items.  Everyone on the team gets a ward that they drop, and then has a cooldown period before it can be dropped again.  I strongly suspect this is to make the support role less dull to players.... heck, even I think that warding is bloody boring.  It's annoying in LoL, and it's REALLY annoying in Dota (and apparently completely non-existent in Infinite Crisis, at least so far).  It also means that your team isnt map-vision screwed just because the support, who is usually the only one warding in these games, doesnt really know how to do it.

There's also the "roles" that you can choose for your character; frankly, I think they should rename this mechanic.  Basically what it does is that it creates certain effects that occur when you do certain actions.  For example, as a support I go with the "tactician" role, I think it's called.  What it does is that it gives me gold whenever I poke an opponent successfully, and I also get additional gold by being near enemy minions when they pop.  Among other effects that I cant remember.   I still wont have as much gold as the carry that I'm protecting of course, but it means that I can actually build items on a support character for once.   And of course it doesnt have to be just supports that use that role;  there's lots of reasons to choose any of the 4 for each character depending on the situation and the team, among other things.   There's also the..... loadout mechanic, I think it's called?  Like LoL's passive skill tree thing.  It works differently though and will give me a headache if I try to explain it in detail, so I wont.  It's a very recent addition and I definitely havent mastered it's intricacies yet.  Much SCIENCE!!! must yet be done there.

And finally, I like the character roster so far.  It's the usual really screwy sort of cast, with Zeri's paint being one of the less weird things.  There's one character who I'm pretty sure attacks by throwing fish, and can ride on one in a dashing sort of move, and there's another who keeps rolling sheep at me, because sheep.  The roster isnt even close to complete yet.  This game is awhile from open beta, I'm thinking, based on that.

So, all in all, it's been good.

I cant play it or the others as often as I'd like though.  I need to have a day when the modem isnt totally insane to do that.   Heck, I was gonna spend a bunch of time with it today, but the connection has been Comcasting all over the place all night, so no online gaming for me. 
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 27, 2014, 10:46:46 AM
Oh God you have Comcast too??

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

By the way, have you ever tried the (relatively) recently added DotA 2 tutorial? I watched a friend play through it and I was pretty impressed. It's very extensive, you can basically go as far as you want with it, but to complete the entire thing I think it would take about 5 hours. It takes about 2 hours to unlock matchmaking for a new account.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: tigersfan on January 27, 2014, 10:52:03 AM
By the way, have you ever tried the (relatively) recently added DotA 2 tutorial? I watched a friend play through it and I was pretty impressed. It's very extensive, you can basically go as far as you want with it, but to complete the entire thing I think it would take about 5 hours. It takes about 2 hours to unlock matchmaking for a new account.

I have, I thought it was pretty good.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on January 27, 2014, 10:59:31 AM
Oh God you have Comcast too??

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

By the way, have you ever tried the (relatively) recently added DotA 2 tutorial? I watched a friend play through it and I was pretty impressed. It's very extensive, you can basically go as far as you want with it, but to complete the entire thing I think it would take about 5 hours. It takes about 2 hours to unlock matchmaking for a new account.

It speaks volumes about how sad and pathetic Comcast is that this is basically the same reaction I get whenever I mention that I'm stuck with them.   Or people will just give me the sort of look that they'd give to someone who just told them that a very close relative had died.

At least today it sorta has a reason almost.  It *always* goes berserk when the temperature outside goes all bad.  And -35 is bad.  Particularly when it happens to be -35 during a blizzard with horizontal snow.


Aint tried the Dota tutorial.  I figure, I've already learned the game, and I"m not really the patient sort.   I might go and give it a whirl anyway though.  A friend of mine also tells me that it's very well done and worth a go-through.  And that developer rarely disappoints.



Also, speaking of mobas.... has anyone here heard much about Blizzard's upcoming game?  I've seen a couple of videos of it, and it looks VERY different from any of the ones I've seen so far.  Particularly after hearing the devs talk about how various things work in it.

And another interesting game to mention is Solstice Arena.  I dont have time to explain it right now, but it's worth a look at least, I think.  An interesting take on the genre that ended up being deeper than I expected.  Mechanics are very, very different.  I like this one, but so far I aint much good at it, haha.  Found on Steam.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 27, 2014, 12:43:03 PM
Concerning Blizzard's MOBA, I haven't heard much about it for awhile.

Last I heard, they are adding a ton of new mechanics to the game. For example, the addition of "Siege heroes", which is a new role specifically designed to outrange towers completely and take them down from afar. I can only assume this class doesn't fare as well in combat. There's also an interesting new mechanic in that many of the neutral creep camps (such as Roshan or Baron) when defeated begin to fight for you, at least temporarily until they die. I think this could be an exciting addition as well, making "jungling" a little more exciting and eventful, and maybe having entire team fights break out over the neutral camp zones. And of course, an entire roster of heroes based on the Blizzard Legends is nothing to scoff at, but then again, I also see some potential problems with that. I don't really care how powerful Tyrande from the Warcraft III campaign is, she's not going to be taking down Diablo himself single-handedly. Then again, last I checked Diablo isn't even in the roster anymore (maybe because of that) so perhaps it won't be a problem.

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Heroes_of_the_Storm
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 27, 2014, 01:36:54 PM
By the way, new DotA event: http://www.dota2.com/newbloom/day1/

I'm unsure what all that means, seems like a bunch of bullsh*t to me, but I'm excited to learn more either way :D
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 27, 2014, 04:26:47 PM
Anubis is also neat. I was surprised how he could kill someone from full to zero in one combo. I didn't expect that kind of lethality in SMITE. One of the main complaints of LoL players is that DotA is too lethal, in that a single hero can kill you from full to dead even early on, where in LoL this is much more difficult without the help of teammates (especially with mechanics like Flash). It's nice to see that SMITE made it possible to do this. His squishiness and lack of escape mechanism seems to be the balancing mechanism for this guy, pretty awesome.


Here's a typical example of Anubis using only his stun and his ultimate. No additional abilities. The target isn't full (she's at about 60%), but just look at the damage output. It's insane.


Anubis youtube timelink (http://youtu.be/iptocVakYEE?t=6m3s)

To further push that into insanity I can say that he's at lvl 10, half the level cap and only has two finished items and rank 2 of his ultimate. Neith, the target, is level 11, yet just vaporizes.


Another example of Anubis in action. First off, he stuns Poseidon at a distance in order to catch up. Then uses his 1 on an injured Bacchus nearby, killing him. As he's pulling out, he spots a fight behind him, drops his 3 on the ground, and stuns the enemy Anubis inside it forcing him to take lethal damage.


Anubis second clip  (http://youtu.be/iptocVakYEE?t=9m23s)


Chang'e sounds cool as well. Jack-of-all trades, master of none? I also like her ult, the wide, positionally-based stun that is more effective the more people you hit. Sounds like a great initiation ability or a way to turn teamfights around dramatically. I also like how you say she "dances" in and out of battle. I guess I'd have to play the game to actually understand that but it sounds cool.

It's more a matter of how she moves (her move animations are very "dancy") and how her abilities give her a speedboost, allowing her to literally dash in and out of combat. It's beautiful when performed correctly to be honest ^^ But she's not really a jack-of-all-trades. She's primarily a damage mage and initiator but with a token heal. She can also apply a -50% healing debuff on the enemy, so she's somewhere inbetween pure nuke mage and support mage.

Concerning Pugna, Nether Ward isn't particularly broken in the lane, in fact it's usually not even used there. Unlike in LoL (or SMITE it sounds like), a player doesn't typically need to use spells in the lane to survive or do well. A person can last hit simply using their autoattack and still rack up a lot of gold and denies. Spells can sometimes be using for clearing or harassing the enemy, but are not generally necessary for killing minions of you are good at last hitting. In addition, Nether Ward has a period of time between when it ends and when the cooldown comes off, that it no longer exists. (Maybe 15 seconds?) So the opponent can simply use their spells during this time. Also, it becomes much more powerful each level, it's not nearly as strong at level 1 as it would be level 4. Typically, you're much better off leveling your nuke early on for pushing or harassing purposes, or to guard against a heavy push lineup. His aoe nuke is simply an amazing ability.


Ah, I see. In Smite you generally use 1, maybe 2 abilities on every wave in order to clear it faster than your opponent. That way you are free to poke and harass the lane opponent without worrying about counterattacks from minions. Minions will otherwise automatically aggro you if you damage the opposing god in their presense, as will towers. If you are unfortunate enough to be laned up against someone with insanely better clear you simply have to play intelligently. Keep the minions between you and them in order to block any attempts at pokes, and even sometimes try to make them damage you lighlty in order for your minions to help you. Agni, for instance, can dash in a straight line, leaving a flame trail after himself. It can be beneficial to step through the flame trail, taking one tick of damage, in order for your minions to pursue him. You don't stand around and wait for minions to damage eachother enough so that you can last hit them. That usually leads to you being bullied out of lane quickly. So it's far more fast-paced that both LoL and DotA.


Kali sounds really interesting, I like her style. "All or nothing" is often one of my favorite design philosophies. It sounds like the player using Kali has to be really careful early on, only engaging when they know they have an advantage, or when they have a powerful ally helping them. However, if she can make it to the mid-late game, she can wreck people in the right situation. I'm not sure how to feel about the random "Marked for Death" mechanic, but it would probably be too powerful if you could choose your target for it. Actually I think I really like that. She's basically got Tryndamere's ult from LoL, which is fine I guess, it's a pretty common ability in all 3 games appearing in various ways. Very cool.

She's the very epitome of an assassin. She has a jump, a stun, a bleed and can become immortal for a short period of time. She's excellent for ganking, even at lower levels provided she picks her targets and situations. Much like Loki she must carefully plan her attacks or she will find herself stunned out of her ultimate, or even outrun. Loki is another favourite of mine and the only god so far that I've taken to Rank 10 "Legendary". (Ranks are just epeen. It shows that you have played them A LOT and allows you to purchase the Legendary skin which is black and gold. It will also display your stats on the loading screen card).

I definitely have a lot more respect for SMITE after I read about some of its heroes and design philosophies.
I'm glad you do! It's different than most MOBAs for sure, and not everyone likes the changes to the gameplay and flow. But I certainly do. The higher pace keeps me interested and willing to improve.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 27, 2014, 04:31:42 PM
Holy cow, its art style looks just like League of Legends.

Yeah.  That's something I've noticed about pretty much ALL of the mobas I've seen up to this point.  They all have that sort of art style.  Except that LoL's overall look tends to come out being much "darker", if that makes sense, than any of the others.

The only exception might be Infinite Crisis, which looks a bit different..... but also looks a bit bland.  To me, anyway.
Ahem, SMITE disagress with that statement. ;)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on January 27, 2014, 07:24:40 PM
By the way, new DotA event: http://www.dota2.com/newbloom/day1/

I'm unsure what all that means, seems like a bunch of bullsh*t to me, but I'm excited to learn more either way :D

I'm never going to understand why they do these.

I'd love to see MORE ACTUAL MODES in this game, really.  As in, ones that stick around and arent just weird events. 

Though what I'd like to see even more is an unranked mode, really.   But that's a whole other rant.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 27, 2014, 10:24:43 PM
Quote
Though what I'd like to see even more is an unranked mode, really.   But that's a whole other rant.
I don't really understand this complaint. Regular matchmaking itself is "unranked", at least in the sense that nobody can see your rating. It just tries to pair you up with similarly skilled people for a fairly casual game.

You also have the option of setting up "custom games" with your friends against bots or other people you know. Obviously doing this tends to make more uneven games but the option still exists for "skirmishes" or whatnot. I can't see why one would want to the ability to create "public" custom games outside of the matchmaking algorithm as all it would do is inevitably lead to team-stacking and imbalanced games.

I agree I wish they'd add more game modes. However, I think one difference between the DotA design team and LoL team is that if they make a new mode, they'd probably want all the heroes to be relatively balanced in that mode too. Otherwise, they'd have to rebalance every hero for an entirely new mode which is pretty silly truth be told. Looking at LoL's Dominion or Twisted Treeline, you can see what happens when you take an existing pool of heroes designed for a 5v5 map and attempt to redesign the map without redesigning the heroes. It's fun casually, but what you end up with is a really imbalanced set of heroes and underpowered set of ones as well, with plenty in-between. I know IceFrog is very concerned with hero balance, and with a company that puts so much money into competitive events and advertising, he well should be. The result speak volumes, a pool of over 100 heroes and yet they are all relatively balanced with one another. Nothing hero out at me as blatantly OP or obviously underpowered. That's quite an impressive achievement, even if it comes at the cost of new modes.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on January 28, 2014, 01:05:38 AM
Quote
Though what I'd like to see even more is an unranked mode, really.   But that's a whole other rant.
I don't really understand this complaint. Regular matchmaking itself is "unranked", at least in the sense that nobody can see your rating. It just tries to pair you up with similarly skilled people for a fairly casual game.

You also have the option of setting up "custom games" with your friends against bots or other people you know. Obviously doing this tends to make more uneven games but the option still exists for "skirmishes" or whatnot. I can't see why one would want to the ability to create "public" custom games outside of the matchmaking algorithm as all it would do is inevitably lead to team-stacking and imbalanced games.

I agree I wish they'd add more game modes. However, I think one difference between the DotA design team and LoL team is that if they make a new mode, they'd probably want all the heroes to be relatively balanced in that mode too. Otherwise, they'd have to rebalance every hero for an entirely new mode which is pretty silly truth be told. Looking at LoL's Dominion or Twisted Treeline, you can see what happens when you take an existing pool of heroes designed for a 5v5 map and attempt to redesign the map without redesigning the heroes. It's fun casually, but what you end up with is a really imbalanced set of heroes and underpowered set of ones as well, with plenty in-between. I know IceFrog is very concerned with hero balance, and with a company that puts so much money into competitive events and advertising, he well should be. The result speak volumes, a pool of over 100 heroes and yet they are all relatively balanced with one another. Nothing hero out at me as blatantly OP or obviously underpowered. That's quite an impressive achievement, even if it comes at the cost of new modes.

The problem with whole ranked/unranked thing as I see it is that people still seem to treat that mode as an ranked mode.  It's the ONLY mode, so what ranking there is.... hidden or otherwise.... is something that many players care about way too much.   It creates alot more vitriol within matches if someone thinks that you doing something wrong will screw up their "ranking".  With other games, the pointless-anger level tends to be heavily diluted in the actual unranked mode, simply because of the differentiation between the two.  Players are more free to experiment or just have fun and not take it super damn seriously all the time because it's not affecting their "real" ranking.  I like Dota but right now, it absolutely outdoes all of the others in terms of just how much pointless screaming there is within matches.  Even LoL cant match it there, and that's really saying something.  Not that LoL's community is very GOOD mind you.  Good grief no.  But Dota's is EVEN ANGRIER. And more insane.  Though that one's kinda relative....

As for other modes, frankly, I dont think they need to worry quite as much about balance as that.  One way or another, the main 3 lane map would be unaffected by this.  The core reason for additional modes isnt to create a new competetive atmosphere, but is instead to give the players something else to do, and something that can act as a bit of a diversion.   Smite's Arena or ARAM modes, for example.  Nobody is going to take those TOO seriously, but they're lots of fun, and are a pleasant change from doing the main map 3-billionty times in a row.  They dont HAVE to be super-competetive.  The game has it's already excellent main mode for that.  Heck, that's one thing I really like about Smite, is that it has all of these additional modes beyond that one.  I cant think of another moba that has as many as that one does.  Yet none of this is detrimental to the main one at all.

Not to mention.... considering the developers, I cant imagine that any additional mode that they come up with for the game that isnt just one of these weird "event" modes would be anything OTHER than great.  That developer does not disappoint.


Today though I have been told by a friend about something new that IS coming, some sort of.... ability draft mode?  I'm not entirely clear on all of the little details, but it sounds completely hilarious.  It's not a different map, but it's still something that sounds pretty damn awesome. A step in the right direction, in my view.  I eagerly await the chance to try it out.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 28, 2014, 12:13:56 PM
And that's why I love the fact that Smite has separate League and casual games. ^^
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 29, 2014, 01:54:05 AM
So tomorrow, DotA (http://www.dota2.com/newbloom/day2/) is adding 2 new heroes and a new mode (random ability draft).

Terrorblade, one of the most interesting heroes from DotA 1 (in my opinion). He's a carry/jungler/pusher whose ult switches the life percentage between the target and himself. So if they have 100% health and you have 25% health, you swap that. Yeah, it's as awesome as it sounds.

Also Phoenix, a hero I've never played (added after I stopped playing DotA 1). He's a Strength nuker/initiator who uses life as a resource instead of mana. His reckless use of his own life brings him ever closer to the point of self-destruction, upon which (after using his ultimate) he turns into a Sun that burns all the enemies in a wide AoE then, if not destroyed in time, explodes into life, stunning everybody in the same huge radius and coming back full force.

Random ability draft is a casual mode where a random hero is selected for each player, then all the players in the game take turns choosing from all 40 abilities that the 10 heroes once owned, in sequence. HILARIOUS.

New items. Lots of balance changes. New ability to click on a skill that's on cooldown and alert allies if you're ready to use it, how much time is left on it, if you have enough mana to cast it, etc. (In other words, a quick non-verbal way to warn or hint to your allies what you're about to do).

However, by far the most AWESOME change (http://www.dota2.com/newbloom/day3/) this patch, is the ability to jump into any replay at any point now, and make it a live action game. That's right, you can turn your favorite Na'Vi vs. iG game into a reality and actually start playing it with your friends at any point. Doing this not only allows you to finish the game, completely changing the outcome of the original of the match, but also creates a NEW replay for the game that you created from the old one. Then you can replay the match that you replayed from the replay...replay replay replay. Inception anybody?

Beat that League.

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on January 29, 2014, 09:21:10 PM
I have zero urge to reinstall dota. Being able to jump into the middle of boredom is still boredom, no?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 29, 2014, 09:28:53 PM
I have zero urge to reinstall dota. Being able to jump into the middle of boredom is still boredom, no?
No. I'm utterly insulted by this statement. Clearly, it's boredom².
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Aklyon on January 30, 2014, 12:19:34 AM
However, by far the most AWESOME change (http://www.dota2.com/newbloom/day3/) this patch, is the ability to jump into any replay at any point now, and make it a live action game. That's right, you can turn your favorite Na'Vi vs. iG game into a reality and actually start playing it with your friends at any point. Doing this not only allows you to finish the game, completely changing the outcome of the original of the match, but also creates a NEW replay for the game that you created from the old one. Then you can replay the match that you replayed from the replay...replay replay replay. Inception anybody?

Beat that League.
Not to rain on your parade, but Starcraft II added that feature before Dota did, but instead I'd have zero idea of whats going on mid-game dota instead of an idea and slow rts reactions.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 30, 2014, 09:54:35 AM
Dude, you guys have to come and try "Ability Draft" mode. It should basically be called "create your own hero mode". It's the most fun you can have with your pants on.

Everyone starts out with a randomed hero. Then the screen is filled with 40 ability, including 30 regular skills and 10 ultimates from (what seems to be) 10 more randomed heroes. Then, everyone goes in a sequence picking skills until everyone has 4 skills...then the game starts.

(http://i.imgur.com/yhyLQom.jpg)

It may not sound that fun, but I'm telling you, some skill sets were NEVER meant to be put together hahahahaha. Your ability to win is more or less based on how creative you can be, and how well you can adapt to the skill set that you have chosen.

For example, in this match, I've chosen the ultimate "Duel", which forces myself and an opponent to fight each other to the death using only our auto attacks for 5 seconds (or until someone is victorious). It also gives the winner 14 bonus damage permanently. On top of this, I've taken 2 passive skills which make my auto attacks extremely deadly, and then a 4th skill that allows me to blink into combat, attacking very quickly for a short period of time. In other words, I am a single target harbinger of death. With enough farm, I can basically kill anybody in the duration of my ult.

(http://i.imgur.com/yFsEWjs.jpg)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: tigersfan on January 30, 2014, 09:56:55 AM
I can see the appeal of that mode, but, ultimately, it's still DOTA2, and it doesn't fix any of the problems I have with it. (like the insane focus on last hits)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 30, 2014, 11:31:14 AM
I can see the appeal of that mode, but, ultimately, it's still DOTA2, and it doesn't fix any of the problems I have with it. (like the insane focus on last hits)
The importance of last-hitting really depends on which role you play. Supports are expected not to take last hits from their carry. Roamers go around the map early-mid game looking for opportunities to help their lanes secure a kill. Junglers don't have to worry about last hits because nobody is competing with them.

My cousin and best friend has been playing for about as long as I have (10 years), and he's still terrible at last hitting. However, he stays pretty decent at the game by being proficient in other aspects of the game.

We also make "kill lanes" of heroes that excel at killing other heroes, and in that sense we're not really as concerned about last hits as eliminating the other heroes over and over again until the lane snowballs out of control.

Last hits certainly are important to the game, and many people enjoy that aspect of it (my friend basically plays farm DotA for the first 30 minutes, then comes "into" the game so huge that nobody can stop him). However, I'd say you can still be a pretty decent player without it.

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 30, 2014, 04:26:26 PM
I'm with Tigersfan on that. The modes are great and sounds a lot of fun, but I just can get over the fact that it's DotA and have ingrained mechanics that I just can't stand. :(
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on January 30, 2014, 08:30:55 PM
I'm with Tigersfan on that. The modes are great and sounds a lot of fun, but I just can get over the fact that it's DotA and have ingrained mechanics that I just can't stand. :(

I can understand this one myself (the deny mechanic, ugh).  I like Dota but there's times when I dont feel like playing it because of this sort of thing.  I'm still a beginner in it though so that may change, but I do tend to be impatient about that type of mechanic.

BUT, there is the fact that pretty much the entire genre uses the last-hitting mechanic to some degree.  Usually, unless you're a support, you have to be popping at least some minions/creeps/whatever or your never going to get any gold.... and of course you need gold to buy cool stuff.  I think the one big difference with Dota about that mechanic that bugs me is the fact that you cant really use spells/skills to pop multiple creeps at once.... that's something I like doing in the other games, it can speed things up a bit and has a bit more of a satisfying feel to it.  Popping one minion for full gold is nice and all, but popping 5 at once is even better.

What Wingflyer says is true though, only the carry needs to be super-obsessed with gold and last-hitting in Dota.   There's still going to BE a bit of a laning phase for the other roles, but it's not the same as that of the carry.  Other roles can get gold via other methods to a degree.  Ganking is important of course, you can get major gold by participating in that, or you can just do jungling, which works pretty much the same as in any other moba.  Stuff like that. 


As for that new mode, I might give that a go later tonight myself if I dont forget about it.   About bloody time they added something genuinely different to the game, and it looks hilarious.

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: tigersfan on January 31, 2014, 05:45:10 AM
Well, as has been discussed before, Smite has last hits, but the emphasis on it is WAY less than any other MOBA I"m aware of.

That said, there are other things about DOTA that I don't like, one of the big ones being that there is no surrender option. I've played some DOTA, and after three games in a row where my team was getting crushed, but the enemy team drug out the game as long as they could... I was done.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 31, 2014, 09:01:21 AM
Well, as has been discussed before, Smite has last hits, but the emphasis on it is WAY less than any other MOBA I"m aware of.

That said, there are other things about DOTA that I don't like, one of the big ones being that there is no surrender option. I've played some DOTA, and after three games in a row where my team was getting crushed, but the enemy team drug out the game as long as they could... I was done.
I completely agree with you. Waiting until the end of the game most of the time is just RIDICULOUS. What's even worse is that the enemy can just sit there fountain diving you over and over ad nauseum. It's enough to make you wanna cut yourself.

The problem is, DotA *HAS* no mechanic which forces the game to end quickly once you begin losing. If the enemy team is already strong enough that it's basically impossible to beat them, that isn't going to suddenly make your towers begin self-destructing, and even waiting for the enemy creeps to do it by themselves is a disaster. It would take forever. Meanwhile, in pretty much every game the winning team thinks it's hilarious to just sit outside the fountain and kill their hapless opponents over and over.

I mean *technically* there is a surrender option. If all 5 people on your team disconnect within 5 minutes of each other, the game automatically ends a few seconds later. But seriously, this is unrealistic. Most the time you'll be playing with people you don't know, and even if you do the honorable thing and leave first, hoping that other people will follow you, there's usually that one hero guy at the end who thinks he's fighting for the ****ing Alamo.

Whenever I'm winning games, I do my absolute best to finish as fast as possible. I'm usually pushing towers and finishing the base while the rest of my team is just fountain camping. I feel that if I hate being fountain camped, why do it to other people? I mean it would be different if it was like LoL's Dominion mode which basically forces the game to end quickly if a team is losing bad enough, which is a brilliant mechanic by the way.

I'm not proud to say it, but in order to combat this situation, there are things you can do alleviate your pain. Each time an enemy kills a courier, it gives their entire team a sizeable amount of gold. When you realize it's over, selling all your items and spamming couriers, then sending them all out into battle is one way to end your misery more quickly. Another thing you can do to save yourself some grief is to buy blink dagger, go to a remote area on the map, and blink into the trees where the enemy is extremely unlikely to find you.

Often when you use some of these techniques, one or many members on your team will begin raging at you, threatening to report you, urging that you can still win. It is during these times which I find the aforementioned tactics most satisfying.

The only good aspect that has come out of this *RIDICULOUS* mechanic is the fact that it forces your team to continue playing games you would have otherwise left in the other MOBAs. I've had comebacks I never expected to happen, and experiences I couldn't believe, simply because they removed my option to give up. Wow, no wonder this game is so popular with the Russians.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on January 31, 2014, 09:16:15 AM
I've had comebacks I never expected to happen, and experiences I couldn't believe, simply because they removed my option to give up. Wow, no wonder this game is so popular with the Russians.
The game has run for over 40 minutes, now when you enter the losing team's side of the map you take a progressively worse movement debuff alongside attrition damage.

Mind the snow.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: tigersfan on January 31, 2014, 11:52:50 AM
...
The only good aspect that has come out of this *RIDICULOUS* mechanic is the fact that it forces your team to continue playing games you would have otherwise left in the other MOBAs. I've had comebacks I never expected to happen, and experiences I couldn't believe, simply because they removed my option to give up. Wow, no wonder this game is so popular with the Russians.

Sure, but, in all honesty, how often does that happen? For me, it doesn't happen often enough to justify playing it. THere are so many other games out there that I enjoy playing more that I just don't see the point.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 31, 2014, 01:18:42 PM
...
The only good aspect that has come out of this *RIDICULOUS* mechanic is the fact that it forces your team to continue playing games you would have otherwise left in the other MOBAs. I've had comebacks I never expected to happen, and experiences I couldn't believe, simply because they removed my option to give up. Wow, no wonder this game is so popular with the Russians.

Sure, but, in all honesty, how often does that happen? For me, it doesn't happen often enough to justify playing it. THere are so many other games out there that I enjoy playing more that I just don't see the point.
It honestly doesn't happen that much, but that may also be because I give up easily sometimes. DotA is about *having fun* for me, if I have to literally put all my effort into the game to the point that I'm stressed out afterwards, it kind of defeats the purpose. That's the kind of focus and concentration it would probably take to succeed in a game in which you're extremely far behind.

Incidentally, my first and only ranked game lasted for 70+ minutes, not including the 10 minute picking/banning phase, and it took everything out of me. Yeah, we won, and in large part to my personal contribution, but it kind of left a sour taste in my mouth.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on January 31, 2014, 08:26:12 PM
...
The only good aspect that has come out of this *RIDICULOUS* mechanic is the fact that it forces your team to continue playing games you would have otherwise left in the other MOBAs. I've had comebacks I never expected to happen, and experiences I couldn't believe, simply because they removed my option to give up. Wow, no wonder this game is so popular with the Russians.

Sure, but, in all honesty, how often does that happen? For me, it doesn't happen often enough to justify playing it. THere are so many other games out there that I enjoy playing more that I just don't see the point.

Aye, this.   That's part of my problem with it as well.  Dota..... isnt structured so that comebacks are really viable.  If anything, it's structured AGAINST the idea.  It's why other devs lately have been trying to come up with changes that can allow comebacks to happen more frequently.   Dota's mechanics/balance/everything tends toward extreme snowballing.   Once that's started happening for one team.... chances are if you dont stop them VERY QUICKLY, within just a couple of minutes you'll hit a point where a comeback simply isnt a realistic idea anymore.  The other guys are too strong, and the stronger they get, the faster they then gain further strength.   League of course does this too, and I think it's one of the biggest reasons why the surrender option is so important there.  Because when you hit this point, what's the purpose of going further?  Theoretically comebacks can still TECHNICALLY happen..... but it's so phenomenally rare in that situation that it's usually not worth thinking about too much.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on January 31, 2014, 11:01:10 PM
...
The only good aspect that has come out of this *RIDICULOUS* mechanic is the fact that it forces your team to continue playing games you would have otherwise left in the other MOBAs. I've had comebacks I never expected to happen, and experiences I couldn't believe, simply because they removed my option to give up. Wow, no wonder this game is so popular with the Russians.

Sure, but, in all honesty, how often does that happen? For me, it doesn't happen often enough to justify playing it. THere are so many other games out there that I enjoy playing more that I just don't see the point.

Aye, this.   That's part of my problem with it as well.  Dota..... isnt structured so that comebacks are really viable.  If anything, it's structured AGAINST the idea.  It's why other devs lately have been trying to come up with changes that can allow comebacks to happen more frequently.   Dota's mechanics/balance/everything tends toward extreme snowballing.   Once that's started happening for one team.... chances are if you dont stop them VERY QUICKLY, within just a couple of minutes you'll hit a point where a comeback simply isnt a realistic idea anymore.  The other guys are too strong, and the stronger they get, the faster they then gain further strength.   League of course does this too, and I think it's one of the biggest reasons why the surrender option is so important there.  Because when you hit this point, what's the purpose of going further?  Theoretically comebacks can still TECHNICALLY happen..... but it's so phenomenally rare in that situation that it's usually not worth thinking about too much.
Unfortunately I disagree with this entirely. DotA is designed for comebacks much more than any other MOBA I've played or done research into.

This guy (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2016504) at the LoL forum has a pretty good explanation of why. Sure he got downvoted, but what he said was absolutely true.

Two experiments were done using the biggest tournaments for LoL and DotA respectively. The method was simple. The researchers looked and saw what team was ahead in gold at the 12 minute mark. If the gold difference was larger than 10%, they then fast forwarded to the end to see which team had won. If the team which had been behind at the 12 minute mark had won, it would be considered a comeback.

The tournament used for LoL was MLG Anaheim 2012, and the tournament used for DotA was The Defense 2012. Not surprisingly, the comeback chance for a team that was ahead in gold at the MLG tournament for LoL was only 18 percent. How, another study found that if you looked for the team with the gold lead at the 15 minute mark, that team had a 90% chance to win. So basically, a 10% chance to comeback after the 15 minute mark, for the team that is even slightly behind.

However, the statistics for the DotA 2 tournament (INTL 2012) were much different. Overall, a team that was 10% behind at the 10 minute mark still had a 26% chance to comeback. 26% is pretty fair in my eyes. If the number of comebacks was higher than about 1/4th of the time, being ahead would almost be pointless.

However, I think you also have to take into consideration all the mechanics that DotA has added since the 2012 tournament to make comebacks even more likely than before. Such as:

1.Nerfing buybacks:
* Buyback prevents gaining unreliable gold (creeps, neutrals, etc) until your normal respawn time finishes
* When buying back, 25% of the remaining respawn time will be added to your next death
-This is important. Buybacks give the winning team an advantage. They usually have a lot more left over gold than the losing team (obviously). This means that they can buy back into the game much more often, making it exceedingly hard to win from behind. However, buybacks were nerfed hard in the 6.78 patch, which severely punishes the player using them. This happened AFTER The International 2013 ended by the way.

2. Roshan mechanics changed
* Roshan will respawn at a random time between 8 and 11 minutes after death
* When Aegis expires unused, it heals the hero fully over 5 seconds (regen dispels on damage from players or buildings)
-Roshan no longer respawns at a set time. The winning team can't just go into his pit every 10 minutes like clock work and keep killing him for an uncontestable snowball frenzy. Instead, they would have to hover around the pit for several minutes around the time it's supposed to respawn. If the enemy team does choose to do this, they're wasting valuable time and resources during which the losing team can be farming, pushing, or doing various other things around the map. However, once the winning team begins to Rosh, the losing team can still usually respond in time if they're paying attention.

3. Aegis time reduced from 10 to 6 minutes.
-This means that the person with the aegis is forced to use it much earlier than before, allowing the enemy team to simply hold out until the aegis ends, or having the defensive advantage of the team with the aegis tries to push. Before, the team with the aegis was very difficult to deal with for 10 minutes.

4. Kill streak ending hugely buffed
The rewarding for stopping someone with 10 kills in DotA is now 1000 gold. For 9 kills it's 875. For 7 kills it's 750. Compare this to League for which the number never increases about 500, even after 10+ kills in a row.

And tons of other small changes that have happened since that 2012 tournament. The number of comebacks in The Defense 2013 were absolutely insane. If you haven't watched the Grand Finals (http://www.dotacinema.com/vods/5358#game1) of that tournament, I highly encourage you to do so.

Sources used:
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/utge5/the_snowball_experiment_day_2_charting_mlg/
http://lol.gamepedia.com/Articles:Snowballing_in_the_Group_Stages_of_the_S3_World_Championship
http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/yo1k6/how_often_do_comebacks_happen_in_pro_dota_2_with/
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 31, 2014, 11:40:01 PM
It's funny, because I've seen SO many comebacks in Smite. Every other game there's a huge comeback in Conquest games. All it takes is a few good engagements, a Fire Giant (ie Roshan) and you can make a HUGE push. Even backdooring is fairly common in Smite.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 01, 2014, 12:13:13 AM
It's funny, because I've seen SO many comebacks in Smite. Every other game there's a huge comeback in Conquest games. All it takes is a few good engagements, a Fire Giant (ie Roshan) and you can make a HUGE push. Even backdooring is fairly common in Smite.
Awesome, can't wait to try it.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 01, 2014, 06:54:05 AM
...
The only good aspect that has come out of this *RIDICULOUS* mechanic is the fact that it forces your team to continue playing games you would have otherwise left in the other MOBAs. I've had comebacks I never expected to happen, and experiences I couldn't believe, simply because they removed my option to give up. Wow, no wonder this game is so popular with the Russians.

Sure, but, in all honesty, how often does that happen? For me, it doesn't happen often enough to justify playing it. THere are so many other games out there that I enjoy playing more that I just don't see the point.

Aye, this.   That's part of my problem with it as well.  Dota..... isnt structured so that comebacks are really viable.  If anything, it's structured AGAINST the idea.  It's why other devs lately have been trying to come up with changes that can allow comebacks to happen more frequently.   Dota's mechanics/balance/everything tends toward extreme snowballing.   Once that's started happening for one team.... chances are if you dont stop them VERY QUICKLY, within just a couple of minutes you'll hit a point where a comeback simply isnt a realistic idea anymore.  The other guys are too strong, and the stronger they get, the faster they then gain further strength.   League of course does this too, and I think it's one of the biggest reasons why the surrender option is so important there.  Because when you hit this point, what's the purpose of going further?  Theoretically comebacks can still TECHNICALLY happen..... but it's so phenomenally rare in that situation that it's usually not worth thinking about too much.
Unfortunately I disagree with this entirely. DotA is designed for comebacks much more than any other MOBA I've played or done research into.

This guy (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2016504) at the LoL forum has a pretty good explanation of why. Sure he got downvoted, but what he said was absolutely true.

Two experiments were done using the biggest tournaments for LoL and DotA respectively. The method was simple. The researchers looked and saw what team was ahead in gold at the 12 minute mark. If the gold difference was larger than 10%, they then fast forwarded to the end to see which team had won. If the team which had been behind at the 12 minute mark had won, it would be considered a comeback.

The tournament used for LoL was MLG Anaheim 2012, and the tournament used for DotA was The Defense 2012. Not surprisingly, the comeback chance for a team that was ahead in gold at the MLG tournament for LoL was only 18 percent. How, another study found that if you looked for the team with the gold lead at the 15 minute mark, that team had a 90% chance to win. So basically, a 10% chance to comeback after the 15 minute mark, for the team that is even slightly behind.

However, the statistics for the DotA 2 tournament (INTL 2012) were much different. Overall, a team that was 10% behind at the 10 minute mark still had a 26% chance to comeback. 26% is pretty fair in my eyes. If the number of comebacks was higher than about 1/4th of the time, being ahead would almost be pointless.

However, I think you also have to take into consideration all the mechanics that DotA has added since the 2012 tournament to make comebacks even more likely than before. Such as:

1.Nerfing buybacks:
* Buyback prevents gaining unreliable gold (creeps, neutrals, etc) until your normal respawn time finishes
* When buying back, 25% of the remaining respawn time will be added to your next death
-This is important. Buybacks give the winning team an advantage. They usually have a lot more left over gold than the losing team (obviously). This means that they can buy back into the game much more often, making it exceedingly hard to win from behind. However, buybacks were nerfed hard in the 6.78 patch, which severely punishes the player using them. This happened AFTER The International 2013 ended by the way.

2. Roshan mechanics changed
* Roshan will respawn at a random time between 8 and 11 minutes after death
* When Aegis expires unused, it heals the hero fully over 5 seconds (regen dispels on damage from players or buildings)
-Roshan no longer respawns at a set time. The winning team can't just go into his pit every 10 minutes like clock work and keep killing him for an uncontestable snowball frenzy. Instead, they would have to hover around the pit for several minutes around the time it's supposed to respawn. If the enemy team does choose to do this, they're wasting valuable time and resources during which the losing team can be farming, pushing, or doing various other things around the map. However, once the winning team begins to Rosh, the losing team can still usually respond in time if they're paying attention.

3. Aegis time reduced from 10 to 6 minutes.
-This means that the person with the aegis is forced to use it much earlier than before, allowing the enemy team to simply hold out until the aegis ends, or having the defensive advantage of the team with the aegis tries to push. Before, the team with the aegis was very difficult to deal with for 10 minutes.

4. Kill streak ending hugely buffed
The rewarding for stopping someone with 10 kills in DotA is now 1000 gold. For 9 kills it's 875. For 7 kills it's 750. Compare this to League for which the number never increases about 500, even after 10+ kills in a row.

And tons of other small changes that have happened since that 2012 tournament. The number of comebacks in The Defense 2013 were absolutely insane. If you haven't watched the Grand Finals (http://www.dotacinema.com/vods/5358#game1) of that tournament, I highly encourage you to do so.

Sources used:
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/utge5/the_snowball_experiment_day_2_charting_mlg/
http://lol.gamepedia.com/Articles:Snowballing_in_the_Group_Stages_of_the_S3_World_Championship
http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/yo1k6/how_often_do_comebacks_happen_in_pro_dota_2_with/

The thing about all of the stuff that guy said in his post though is that they're all just concepts.   Concepts which make sense on paper, but in practice, they never quite work that way.   There's a reason why Dota has a reputation among many people for crazed snowballing being stupidly common.  Items that are less worthy at higher costs, for example.  That's great and all, but if the carry on the other team is already super-fed, he probably doesnt care too much.... and will probably more than make up for the item's expensiveness due to all of the gold he gets from slaughtering your team. AND, every time he kills one, that player then LOSES gold, while he GAINS it.  Suddenly, he's taken a large leap towards even MORE power, while his enemy has just been knocked back from whatever they were intending on buying by a significant amount.   And typically, when snowballing is occuring, it's not like the carry player is only getting one of these kills every now and then... chances are, he's wrecking you in rapid succession.  The faster he does this, the more ridiculous the gulf between power levels becomes.  And that's JUST considering the carry.  Every time the snowballing carry kills, he makes things easier on his teammates to do what they're trying to do.... which often involves getting money as well.  And of course, the carry is often not the only one dealing damage to his target, which means assist gold as well for the others.  And when the enemy team is all smashed up, the snowballing group is free to pop more towers, or maybe go smash Roshan, snowballing even further.   This continues to get more absurd as other, similar concepts begin to show themselves.

Typically, even in tournaments, STOPPING the crazed ball of snow generally means one thing:  Someone on the enemy team made a colossal mistake of some sort, creating an opening or a weak spot that wouldnt be there otherwise.  When I'm watching matches, either tournament-level, or otherwise, and a comeback occurs, this is usually the sort of situation that led up to it.   Someone on the winning team made some really bad mistake, got their entire team wrecked (in many cases this needs to happen more than once to shorten the distance between power levels enough to work), and gave the losing team a sudden chance to run amok and pop towers and whatever.

And of course this isnt just restricted to Dota, but happens in varying levels in games across the genre.  Depends on the game.

I forgot what else I was gonna say.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 01, 2014, 11:07:39 AM
Quote
There's a reason why Dota has a reputation among many people for crazed snowballing being stupidly common.
Typically the people who say things like this, in my experience, are people whom come from LoL who played for a week or less, gave up, and went back to their game. I've never met a single person who has been playing DotA for years that will tell you that comebacks are uncommon. It does take a certain understanding of the game, and a certain level of competence of your teammates, but comebacks are very possible if you really want it.

Quote
Items that are less worthy at higher costs, for example.  That's great and all, but if the carry on the other team is already super-fed, he probably doesnt care too much.... and will probably more than make up for the item's expensiveness due to all of the gold he gets from slaughtering your team. AND, every time he kills one, that player then LOSES gold, while he GAINS it.
Looking at this another way, however, lends a very different view. The person that keeps dying didn't have that much gold anyway, so he's not really losing that much. In addition, the "reliable gold" mechanic gives you gold that you can not lose on death, regardless of how many times you die. On the other hand, when members of the enemy team die, they're losing a LOT of gold since they have it to lose, and if you're ending their streaks, giving you even more than normal.

In addition, it's difficult to discount the items in DotA which are extremely cheap and cost efficient. Ghost Scepter (http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Ghost_Scepter) is a 1400 gold item that gives the user 7 to all stats, and the ability to become immune to physical damage for 4 seconds. In other words, it doesn't matter how much farm the carry has. Once a squishy hero buys this, the carry could have 10x his amount of farm but can still do absolutely nothing to him for 4 seconds. Nothing even remotely like this exists in LoL. The squishy hero can still even use his spells during this time, stunning, disabling, or nuking the opponents. Yeah, he can't use his autoattack anymore, but if you're that behind in farm, it likely wouldn't make much of a difference anyway right?

However, the 4 second attack immunity lasts even more than just 4 seconds, and I'll tell you why. Team fights typically last about 10-15 seconds in DotA before there emerges a clear victor. If a carry begins attacking you, then you turn ethreal, he's not going to just sit and follow you around for 4 seconds, he has to switch to another target. If he just sat and waited for you to become vulnerable again, he would waste so much precious time and DPS while your allies were free to run amok. So basically, after he switches targets, who knows how much time you get before you become the target again. It is EXTREMELY cost efficient in this situation, and I've seen it turn games around many times.

Then you've got items like Cyclone Stick (http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Eul%27s_Scepter_of_Divinity) which put yourself or an enemy hero out of the battle for 2.5 seconds. It costs 2700, but it's separated into smaller, easily buildable pieces, and it's something I love to buy on casters/supports. Sure, LoL has Zhonya's, but it's even more expensive, and can only be used on yourself, not an opponent.

You've also got Heaven's Halberd (http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Heaven%27s_Halberd), an item typically built for STR heroes. It isn't that expensive, and yet it offers amazing benefits against carries. 20 Strength (equivalent to 380 health), 25 damage, 25% evasion from attacks (in other words, enemy attacks miss you 1/4th of the time), and an amazing active ability, which shuts down a carry's ability to attack for 4 seconds.

On top of that you have items like Sheepstick (http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Scythe_of_Vyse), which admittedly is pretty expensive, but is core on many casters, and takes enemies out of the battle for 3.5 seconds, during which they are unable to attack, cast spells, and can barely even move.

This is even including all the heroes in DotA whose abilities are designed to shut down or counter carries, of which there are many, and many whose abilities go right through BKB as well. The amount of ways to shut down a heavily farmed carry in DotA are numerous, and you can completely any amount of farm with the right items and good teamwork.

Is it easy to do? Absolutely not. It shouldn't be either. The carry earned that farm and gear by playing smart and getting ahead through legitimate means. It would be ridiculous if he didn't have the advantage in battle by sheer virtue of being able to right click you to death, after an entire game's worth of hard work getting up to that point. That's what it means to be playing from behind though. Yes, you're at a disadvantage. Yes, it requires better teamwork than the team is ahead. Why wouldn't this be the case?

Having said all that, I do agree that using these items effectively does require a decent understanding of the game. In lower level matches, carries are certainly king. It kind of reminds me of my Homeworld 2 days. I was never very good at the game, but sometimes I would venture online to play it in multiplayer against other people. I enjoyed playing multiplayer team matches because I wasn't very good on my own. Well the most commonly used strategy was to rush a "late-game" tech, massive warships called Battlecruisers. They took awhile to get and required a lot of money and research, but once you had them, you could basically unleash unbridled destruction against your foes that was difficult to stop. They had a lot of health, did a lot of damage (understatement), and their slow speed hardly mattered because you could warp them wherever you needed them to go. Most of these matches ended one way or another in a BC war, with the team who built the most BC and used them the quickest, always coming out the victor.

Fast forward a couple years, and I decide to play HW2 again on a whim. Most of the newer players have already left the game and moved on to something else. I get into a game with what seems to be fairly experienced players, and they laugh at me as I try my typical BC strat again. They simple disable my Battlecruiser, take it out of the battle, then capture it with marine boarding parties. I was completely baffled. Afterwards they told me how noob that strategy was. I began to realize that these guys were on a whole different level than me, and looking back, I'm sure that had always been the case.

In terms of comebacks, I see those all the time in high level play. The International 2013 was just amazing with how many comebacks and upsets there were. I mean you could just see how *BADLY* some of those teams wanted to win. They were willing to defy the laws of ****ing nature to win those games, even when they were impossibly behind. I'll see if I can find some examples, but that tournament in particular was extremely impressive in that sense.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 01, 2014, 08:34:36 PM
 Yeah, I know all the items and what they do.  Every moba has very similar things to all of that.  All those items are great and all.... but the enemy team has access to the same efficient gizmos that you do.  It's not like they hit a point of snowballing and suddenly the game locks up their store, to prevent extremely practical things like those from being bought.   If they're that far ahead, chances are they already HAVE alot of stuff like that.  It's pretty much guaranteed, in fact.  That's a huge part of the concept of snowballing.  It's not about them buying expensive items:  It's about them buying GOOD items. 

And specifically, when I mention all of this stuff, I'm talking about it in an overall sense.  It happening differently at a few tournaments doesnt change the fact that it's very rare.  It simply means that it's happened in some well-known matches.

And yes, I know it requires good teamwork and all of that.... but in addition to everything related to it, this is a game that uses alot of stats and numbers and calculations..... there's only so much you can do when your spells.... the ones that never scale..... BOUNCE OFF of the enemy team.  Because they're just too powerful to get wrecked at that point.  And that's the thing here.  Chances are, when this situation is taking place, it's NOT just the enemy carry who's gone berserk.  It's probably the entire enemy team by that point....  I only mentioned the carry repeatedly because it's usually the best example, so it makes it less likely that I'll just confuse the points I'm just trying to make but it's rare that in this situation the enemy carry is the ONLY one who is snowballing.  I've been mostly referring to the entire enemy team being ahead like this, not JUST their carry.   

And if this is an enemy team that ISNT dumber than a sack of hammers, chances are they're well aware of any potential remaining weaknesses that could be used against them, and have made preparations to handle those.  Which goes along with the other bit I said:  If a big comeback happens from as far behind as I'm describing, chances are the other team had a major mistake. If you're that far ahead, and you're using teamwork that's just as good as or better than the team that's trying for the miracle win from behind, without any incredible mistakes, well.... you've got quite the high chance of keeping your win chance very secure.

Though why exactly anyone from LoL would try to bring this up in relation to Dota and NOT LoL is baffling to me.  The problem is pretty much the same in LoL.... the only difference being the pleasant inclusion of a surrender mechanic.  It has all the same issues though, if not to the same extremes.  It's more of a genre problem, not just a Dota problem.   Thinking otherwise is kinda silly, really....


As for examples in other genres, the only other game type I do competetively is fighting games, so stuff from other genres dont make too much sense to me. 
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 01, 2014, 08:44:38 PM
Btw, in case anyone is interested, this Twitch video (http://www.twitch.tv/smitegame/b/499939652) (at the 5 hour mark almost exactly) shows a typical high-level game in Smite. It's from the north American tournament qualifiers. It's the finals between Cognitive Gaming and Snipe. You can of course watch the entire 5 hour tournament, but if you just want the finals, check at the 5 hour mark and to the end. It's about 30 minutes.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 01, 2014, 09:08:42 PM
Btw, in case anyone is interested, this Twitch video (http://www.twitch.tv/smitegame/b/499939652) (at the 5 hour mark almost exactly) shows a typical high-level game in Smite. It's from the north American tournament qualifiers. It's the finals between Cognitive Gaming and Snipe. You can of course watch the entire 5 hour tournament, but if you just want the finals, check at the 5 hour mark and to the end. It's about 30 minutes.
Cool, I'll definitely watch it.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 02, 2014, 01:20:16 AM
And this is apparently the views of a DotA2 player that recently got into Smite:
Quote
This game is awesome. As much as I like its simplicity, the skills takes it to a way different level. A game of smite right after a DotA2 game is good for relaxing the nerves as it's more of a go-to game compared to the 1h long, nerve-racking games of the DotA universe. The games scale very well and the strategies are simple yet effective. There are many ways to outplay your ennemies, even though the counters are hard to come by.
I love it, the quality of the graphics are astonishing coming from a "somewhat beta?" game! Since many of the screenshots in here are quite low-quality, I decided to make an album of my latest Arena game with the game running at max settings on 1080p. Enjoy the eye-candy!
Smite is gorgeous! (http://imgur.com/a/rs07Y)
Thanks for the awesome game, Hi-Rez! Hope the game goes on as far as you wish it does!
Funny though that he takes screenshots of the ugliest map to show off Smite :P
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 02, 2014, 01:44:30 AM
Yeah, I know all the items and what they do.  Every moba has very similar things to all of that.  All those items are great and all.... but the enemy team has access to the same efficient gizmos that you do.  It's not like they hit a point of snowballing and suddenly the game locks up their store, to prevent extremely practical things like those from being bought.   If they're that far ahead, chances are they already HAVE alot of stuff like that.  It's pretty much guaranteed, in fact.  That's a huge part of the concept of snowballing.  It's not about them buying expensive items:  It's about them buying GOOD items. 

And specifically, when I mention all of this stuff, I'm talking about it in an overall sense.  It happening differently at a few tournaments doesnt change the fact that it's very rare.  It simply means that it's happened in some well-known matches.

And yes, I know it requires good teamwork and all of that.... but in addition to everything related to it, this is a game that uses alot of stats and numbers and calculations..... there's only so much you can do when your spells.... the ones that never scale..... BOUNCE OFF of the enemy team.  Because they're just too powerful to get wrecked at that point.  And that's the thing here.  Chances are, when this situation is taking place, it's NOT just the enemy carry who's gone berserk.  It's probably the entire enemy team by that point....  I only mentioned the carry repeatedly because it's usually the best example, so it makes it less likely that I'll just confuse the points I'm just trying to make but it's rare that in this situation the enemy carry is the ONLY one who is snowballing.  I've been mostly referring to the entire enemy team being ahead like this, not JUST their carry.   

And if this is an enemy team that ISNT dumber than a sack of hammers, chances are they're well aware of any potential remaining weaknesses that could be used against them, and have made preparations to handle those.  Which goes along with the other bit I said:  If a big comeback happens from as far behind as I'm describing, chances are the other team had a major mistake. If you're that far ahead, and you're using teamwork that's just as good as or better than the team that's trying for the miracle win from behind, without any incredible mistakes, well.... you've got quite the high chance of keeping your win chance very secure.

Though why exactly anyone from LoL would try to bring this up in relation to Dota and NOT LoL is baffling to me.  The problem is pretty much the same in LoL.... the only difference being the pleasant inclusion of a surrender mechanic.  It has all the same issues though, if not to the same extremes.  It's more of a genre problem, not just a Dota problem.   Thinking otherwise is kinda silly, really....


As for examples in other genres, the only other game type I do competetively is fighting games, so stuff from other genres dont make too much sense to me.
Just got finished watching a 60 minute game between Empire and Sigma in the Shock Therapy Cup. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UicwFDctso

The game was actually played and recorded today, so it's safe to say that it's fairly recent :P

The thing is, Sigma completely crushed Empire early on. Empire lost all 3 lanes according to the casters. At the ~12 minute mark Sigma had double the kills and a 10,000 gold lead. They basically had double the gold of Empire at that point.

To make matters worse, Sigma *had* the better late game as well. Sigma had 2 hard carries, where Empire had none. So with Sigma, the better late game team comp crushing Empire early on, it looked like there was no hope for the losing team.  Sigma kept their gold advantage for most the game.  They killed Roshan 4 times, getting the aegis of course, and the cheese the 3rd and 4th time. They had destroyed Empire's bottom set of rax around the 30 minute mark.

I'm sure you know where this is going...Sigma lost the game. It wasn't like you said either, they didn't make any massive mistakes. They played a pretty solid game from beginning to end, Empire was just better. There was no glaring mistake that Sigma made that simply lost them the game. In fact, by all appearances, they should have won. The casters were sure they would win for 75% of the game, then finally began changing their minds at the end.

Comebacks like this happen all the time in competitive DotA. Ultimately, the game rewards the better team. I think that's what really matters. We get into these discussions about the chance of comebacks, mechanics designed to facilitate that, etc., but in the end, I think the most important factor is that the better team wins. In DotA that is almost always the case.

In League for example, I often see the better team losing. For example, let's say you have 3 better players than your opponent. You have a better top, a better support, and a better jungler. Well if the mid and carry lose, you're probably still going to lose the game in LoL. The thing is, top lane is so isolated from the rest of the game. Even if they're winning, they have to leave their lane to help anyone else, and without items like scroll of teleport, they're just giving the opposing top player a chance to take their tower and get back into the game.

Supports in LoL are like jokes. It doesn't really matter how good you are, your contribution to a team fight is usually pretty lackluster. Where in DotA you have supports like Earthshaker, Ancient Apparition, and Silencer, which can change the outcome of the fight single-handedly, LoL supports are really there more for the laning phase than anything. So even if it's a good player, their contribution to the game is very limited.

Having a good jungler is nice, but 1 player probably isn't going to change the outcome of the game if your mid and carry are failing.

This is just one example. The mechanics in DotA facilitate the better team by giving them the tools to stay ahead if they are winning, or get back into the game if they are losing. Individual players can make huge differences and turn the entire thing around. I was completely baffled in this game at how much Doom and Storm Spirit carried their team back from the gates of hell into victory. Some of the plays had me holding my breath the whole time.

You mentioned that you play competitive fighting games sometimes. Well in those fighting games, does the better player not usually win? If one player is ahead in a match (say by 50% of the healthbar), doesn't he have a huge advantage? Why shouldn't he have a huge advantage, he earned that lead. Sure, there may be small mechanics like a bigger "super" bar for the losing player, but ultimately, the player which has a large lead in health is going to have the advantage. Playing from behind is always going to be more difficult, but in the end, the better player typically wins right?

That's the whole point. Good game design ensures that the better team wins, and in the end, I think DotA does that well.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 02, 2014, 01:49:57 AM
And this is apparently the views of a DotA2 player that recently got into Smite:
Quote
This game is awesome. As much as I like its simplicity, the skills takes it to a way different level. A game of smite right after a DotA2 game is good for relaxing the nerves as it's more of a go-to game compared to the 1h long, nerve-racking games of the DotA universe. The games scale very well and the strategies are simple yet effective. There are many ways to outplay your ennemies, even though the counters are hard to come by.
I love it, the quality of the graphics are astonishing coming from a "somewhat beta?" game! Since many of the screenshots in here are quite low-quality, I decided to make an album of my latest Arena game with the game running at max settings on 1080p. Enjoy the eye-candy!
Smite is gorgeous! (http://imgur.com/a/rs07Y)
Thanks for the awesome game, Hi-Rez! Hope the game goes on as far as you wish it does!
Funny though that he takes screenshots of the ugliest map to show off Smite :P
You've definitely got me interested.

I'm going to wait until my best friend (and cousin) has decent internet to try it, we've both decided we'll try it together. I think it will be a perfect fit for my cousin. He loves first person games, but also the strategic and tactical appeal of the MOBA genre. He also *HATES* last hitting lol, which is one of his biggest problems with DotA, even though we've been playing it together now on and off for about 10 years. Unfortunately he currently he lives in a rural area of Colorado in which they don't offer internet o_O. As soon as he moves somewhere new this Summer though, we're going to be playing it a lot I'm sure.

That reminds me, I've got to watch the game you recommended. I'll get back to you!

Edit: Was a lot of fun to watch. I LOVED THE QUACKEN. Was a pretty one-sided stomp but I guess many tournaments are.

I really had no idea what was going on but it definitely looked awesome. If you can find some super close matches and/or comebacks go ahead and send those my way too :P
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 02, 2014, 02:48:50 AM
Edit: Was a lot of fun to watch. I LOVED THE QUACKEN. Was a pretty one-sided stomp but I guess many tournaments are.

I really had no idea what was going on but it definitely looked awesome. If you can find some super close matches and/or comebacks go ahead and send those my way too :P
Yeah, whenever Cognitive Gaming is involved, it's usually rather onesided, unfortunately :P But Snipe did good for themselves earlier in the tournament, beating the former favourites of Denial Esports and Dignitas.

And yeah, the Quacken is hilarious. Poseidon has stolen the Kraken from the Norse pantheon and that's usually what comes up, but when he has the Poolseidon skin, it's instead his bathing Quacken :P


But you could at least see how fast paced and fluid the Smite gameplay is. People are constantly rotating, camps in the jungle are regularly cleared, there's poking and fighting in the lane all the time, since you don't have to focus so much on the minions themselves. So I just love it. Another favourite moment was at 5:14:36. That Ra ultimate coming from deep into the jungle and just barely hitting the escaping Sun Wukong. As someone who has played Ra substantially, I know that the delay on that shot is huge. There's at least a 1,5 second "spool up" before Ra actually fires the beam, so being able to predict that movement, at that range and still hit is just freaking amazing. That's Tribes levels of awesome :P
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: djgreenhill on February 02, 2014, 04:44:05 AM
And this is apparently the views of a DotA2 player that recently got into Smite:
Quote
This game is awesome. As much as I like its simplicity, the skills takes it to a way different level. A game of smite right after a DotA2 game is good for relaxing the nerves as it's more of a go-to game compared to the 1h long, nerve-racking games of the DotA universe. The games scale very well and the strategies are simple yet effective. There are many ways to outplay your ennemies, even though the counters are hard to come by.
I love it, the quality of the graphics are astonishing coming from a "somewhat beta?" game! Since many of the screenshots in here are quite low-quality, I decided to make an album of my latest Arena game with the game running at max settings on 1080p. Enjoy the eye-candy!
Smite is gorgeous! (http://imgur.com/a/rs07Y)
Thanks for the awesome game, Hi-Rez! Hope the game goes on as far as you wish it does!
Funny though that he takes screenshots of the ugliest map to show off Smite :P

Hey, that's my post right there! Yea, I really love smite from a DotA2 point of view. I hated League of Legends for the reason it was way too simplistic and linear, but Smite feels like a midpoint between the infinite mindboggle that is DotA and the boring strictness of LoL and it's FUN AS HELL. In no way I stopped playing DotA2 for Smite but a game of Smite after DotA2 is a really great mood setter as it doesn't feel bad to lose! I'd recommend Smite for the more easy-going player that doesn't want to invest hundreads or even thousands of hours learning mechanics, strategies and all kind of tricks for a game like DotA and that hates LoL or just wants a MOBA-style World of Warcraft!
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 02, 2014, 10:57:48 AM
After I watched a few videos about it and doing some research, here are the things I *do* like about Smite:

1. Free-to-play.
2. Awesome selection of heroes considering it's still "beta".
3. The Gods seem very appropriate and faithful to their original lore. They even sort them by Chinese, Egyptian, Norse, etc. (very cool)
4. Skillshot based FPS spin on the genre, sorely needed.
5. Graphics look very nice.

Things I don't like about it at first glance:

1. Not all the Gods are unlocked at the beginning. I think both DotA and HoN have shown that if your game is good, you can do pretty well (understatement) even with all the important content being unlocked to every player. $30 isn't too steep considering my perceived quality of the game (without actually playing it), but what happens when the "sale" ends and it becomes $200? At that point, I'll be pretty miffed about it.
2. Many of the mechanics seem quite "LoL-ish". Hearing them talk about health per 5, red and blue buffs was so disappointing.
3. The jungle camps seem utterly uninspired... Hi-Rez Studios had SUCH an opportunity here after 10,000 MOBA games to make the jungle unique and interesting. For example making neutral camps that were so difficult (aside from the Roshan) that they actually required skill and coordination to beat. Or making defeated camps fight for you. Or making jungle camps somehow buff your minion armies. Or jungle camps that take *FOREVER* to kill, leaving one of your Gods out of the lane, but if they are successful, they get a huge buff temporarily, etc. Instead, they opted for the most basic, most boring, most dumbed down neutral camps possible, that can be cleared by (what seems like) anybody in just a few seconds, do almost no damage, and simply serve to give you a little extra EXP and gold. While it was obvious that obtaining these camps was a major goal for both teams, literally waiting until they spawn so you can kill them just a few seconds later was the silliest mechanic I've seen in awhile. Oh well, I guess I'll wait until Heroes of the Storm to see some innovation on this front.
4. The weekly hero rotation mechanic (blegh). Heck, at least they give you a basic set of Gods for free, that's more than LoL does.

Anyway, excited to try it soon.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: tigersfan on February 02, 2014, 11:42:33 AM
What is wrong with HP5 and MP5? These are mechanics that can have HUGE effects on the game.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 02, 2014, 12:07:09 PM
What is wrong with HP5 and MP5? These are mechanics that can have HUGE effects on the game.
Nothing wrong with it, it's basically just done in World of Warcraft/League of Legends style. I guess the "X per 5" mechanic makes it easier for people to understand or something? I don't know why it can't just be "X per second", it almost feels like they're insulting our intelligence. Then again, WoW is made for the masses so I understand why it's designed that way.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 02, 2014, 01:02:00 PM
The reason HP5/MP5 is used are generally network reasons. Having health and mana update every 5 seconds rather than every second drastically reduces network calls for ten gods/heroes. At least that's what I've heard.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 02, 2014, 03:10:12 PM
The reason HP5/MP5 is used are generally network reasons. Having health and mana update every 5 seconds rather than every second drastically reduces network calls for ten gods/heroes. At least that's what I've heard.
That's certainly fair.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 03, 2014, 05:01:40 AM
And this is apparently the views of a DotA2 player that recently got into Smite:
Quote
This game is awesome. As much as I like its simplicity, the skills takes it to a way different level. A game of smite right after a DotA2 game is good for relaxing the nerves as it's more of a go-to game compared to the 1h long, nerve-racking games of the DotA universe. The games scale very well and the strategies are simple yet effective. There are many ways to outplay your ennemies, even though the counters are hard to come by.
I love it, the quality of the graphics are astonishing coming from a "somewhat beta?" game! Since many of the screenshots in here are quite low-quality, I decided to make an album of my latest Arena game with the game running at max settings on 1080p. Enjoy the eye-candy!
Smite is gorgeous! (http://imgur.com/a/rs07Y)
Thanks for the awesome game, Hi-Rez! Hope the game goes on as far as you wish it does!
Funny though that he takes screenshots of the ugliest map to show off Smite :P

Hey, that's my post right there! Yea, I really love smite from a DotA2 point of view. I hated League of Legends for the reason it was way too simplistic and linear, but Smite feels like a midpoint between the infinite mindboggle that is DotA and the boring strictness of LoL and it's FUN AS HELL. In no way I stopped playing DotA2 for Smite but a game of Smite after DotA2 is a really great mood setter as it doesn't feel bad to lose! I'd recommend Smite for the more easy-going player that doesn't want to invest hundreads or even thousands of hours learning mechanics, strategies and all kind of tricks for a game like DotA and that hates LoL or just wants a MOBA-style World of Warcraft!
Sweet! Cool that you dropped by here! ^_^
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 04, 2014, 02:00:58 AM
So I couldn't wait and I tried Smite.

You were right, I absolutely loved it. The jungle camps weren't as bad as I thought, especially with the addition of the Speed Camp that I didn't know about.

Amazing game, feels wonderful. I love how it's all based on skill shots and personal aiming. I love the ragdoll physics.

Possibly my favorite part of the game are the "Gods". It's the first MOBA that actually explains how the players constantly respawn, considering that the Gods are technically invincible according to the lore. The Gods themselves seem very faithful to their theme, and their designs are just freaking cool. I've only tried a few so far but I've enjoyed every single one. I love how they're using Gods from the Greek, Norse, Chinese, Indian, and even Mayan mythologies. I'm really impressed with the sheer number of Gods they chose and created.

To me, Smite is just a better League of Legends. It has basically all the League mechanics, the free hero rotation, buying new heroes with in-game currency, no denying, no buybacks, neutral camps that give powerful temporary buffs, items that are mostly passive, summoner spells, inhibitors that respawn, simplified mechanics, ARAM mode, alternate modes, etc. The difference being that it's a lot more fun than League, it seems more skill-based, and has a 3rd dimension.

I went ahead and paid the $30, thanks for the heads up. This will give me something to play when I don't want to take things so seriously :D
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 04, 2014, 04:50:48 AM
So I couldn't wait and I tried Smite.

You were right, I absolutely loved it. The jungle camps weren't as bad as I thought, especially with the addition of the Speed Camp that I didn't know about.

Amazing game, feels wonderful. I love how it's all based on skill shots and personal aiming. I love the ragdoll physics.

Possibly my favorite part of the game are the "Gods". It's the first MOBA that actually explains how the players constantly respawn, considering that the Gods are technically invincible according to the lore. The Gods themselves seem very faithful to their theme, and their designs are just freaking cool. I've only tried a few so far but I've enjoyed every single one. I love how they're using Gods from the Greek, Norse, Chinese, Indian, and even Mayan mythologies. I'm really impressed with the sheer number of Gods they chose and created.

To me, Smite is just a better League of Legends. It has basically all the League mechanics, the free hero rotation, buying new heroes with in-game currency, no denying, no buybacks, neutral camps that give powerful temporary buffs, items that are mostly passive, summoner spells, inhibitors that respawn, simplified mechanics, ARAM mode, alternate modes, etc. The difference being that it's a lot more fun than League, it seems more skill-based, and has a 3rd dimension.

I went ahead and paid the $30, thanks for the heads up. This will give me something to play when I don't want to take things so seriously :D
Welcome to the community! ^^ Feel free to add me in game. Same name.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: tigersfan on February 04, 2014, 06:09:38 AM
Feel free to add me as well. I'm Riabi there.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 05, 2014, 07:24:04 PM

You mentioned that you play competitive fighting games sometimes. Well in those fighting games, does the better player not usually win? If one player is ahead in a match (say by 50% of the healthbar), doesn't he have a huge advantage? Why shouldn't he have a huge advantage, he earned that lead. Sure, there may be small mechanics like a bigger "super" bar for the losing player, but ultimately, the player which has a large lead in health is going to have the advantage. Playing from behind is always going to be more difficult, but in the end, the better player typically wins right?

Actually I think this bit kinda helps explain the point I was trying to make.

In a fighting game, the player who has 50% more healthbar..... actually is NOT at a fundamental advantage (and I say this as someone who has played the genre utterly to death and is at a very high level... some other players may disagree with me on this "advantage" bit, but I've decided I'm correct, therefore I am, of course).  They're closer to the goal, but that's it.  No increased attack power, no special something that they've magically gained the ability to use by going further than the other guy, nothing.  The currently-losing player doesnt need to do anything extra to harm their opponent and bring them down.  And that's the big problem that I tend to see in Dota and in mobas as a whole:  When you're ahead in one of those, you DO have not just a "closer to the goal" situation, but also a "definitely more powerful than the other guy" situation.  And that's a HUGE difference.  And Dota's problem, as I see it, is that it pushes this idea a bit too far. The "power gulf" expands further and further as one team gets closer and closer to the goal.  And the lack of skillshots in the game actually hurts this quite alot, now that I think about it.  You cant just go into a fight against a stronger opponent and kick some major ass by awesomely dodging all this oncoming stuff to make a dramatic attack of your own.... because you cant dodge any of it to start with.   If you're in range of the enemy's attack, and they fire, well, for most of the spells in the game.... you WILL get hit. It's either that or waste a BKB charge or something (and as you know, there's plenty of attacks that go through that..... is it me, or is "magic immunity" kinda not the right term sometimes in that? Though it might be a tad OP if it blocked literally everything...).   I think that's one of the things that gets me about Dota VS the other mobas; I do like being able to dodge things, and defend by reaction, and have to deal with aiming and such.   Granted, Dota's focus on positioning is interesting in it's own way, but still.


As for the bit about supports in LoL being a joke, THAT one I dont believe.  This being because I tend to focus on a supportive role in any of these games, as my extremely-reactive playstyle fits well to a defensive role.  Honestly, if someone is playing that role and not being effective.... they probably arent very good at it, and should be doing a different role.  Even I can change the direction a teamfight is going in that game, and I'm not exactly a high-level player.... but I generally DO know what to do with whatever spells I have as the character I'm playing, and I'm capable of actually hitting with them and knowing when to use them (as well as building equipment properly to make sure that when they hit, they'll DO something). 


Smite is kinda the exception to that one for me.... something about the different viewpoint/controls knocks me out of that defensive mindset, and back into my usual hyper-aggressive style that I use in every other genre ever, like the fighting games.  Granted, this can be a bit of an issue at times, since "randomly go totally berserk" is my usual way of doing things in most games, but when it works it's satisfying....   I think it's the WASD controls that end up getting me to do it, in that game.  I'm fine with mouse controls but I wish these games would do things differently more often.


There's more to say overall but I'm still not entirely awake here.... feh.



Feel free to add me as well, for Smite.  I am Enchu on there.  Ah, I aint been on in ages though.... I really should fire that up later tonight and start getting used to all the changes.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: tigersfan on February 06, 2014, 08:28:37 PM
Feel free to add me as well, for Smite.  I am Enchu on there.  Ah, I aint been on in ages though.... I really should fire that up later tonight and start getting used to all the changes.

Added.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 09, 2014, 03:05:28 PM
Well, Smite *was* fun until I guess I was winning too many games, and the matchmaking system must promoted me to "god tier" or whatever. The system must have though I'm the Dendi of Smite because the past solo 15 games have been full of leavers, feeders, and teams that are so bad I can't even carry them. This isn't every once in awhile, this is every single game:

Exhibit A:
(http://i.imgur.com/NYzIVuN.jpg)


I don't mean to complain. I understand that the matchmaking system has to adjust your rating after you go 19-1 for your first 20 games, but forcing you to lose is not my idea of fairness. Unfortunately I think I'm going to have to play with friends for this game to continue to be enjoyable for me. I've lost my desire to try my best while my team feeds miserably.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 09, 2014, 03:13:02 PM
So it looks like it the matchmaking figured that " team composed of good player(s) + bad players" is comparable to "team composed of average players"?

Is that a common matchmaking assumption?

Or not what's going on here?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 09, 2014, 04:20:46 PM
So it looks like it the matchmaking figured that " team composed of good player(s) + bad players" is comparable to "team composed of average players"?

Is that a common matchmaking assumption?

Or not what's going on here?
I'm really not sure what the formula is. I would hope that all the matchmaking ratings being used would be comparable, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

It seems silly to me that it would put someone decent on a team of bad players, against a team of say average players, and expect anything good to come of that.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 09, 2014, 09:08:04 PM
Dontcha hate when that happens?

Usually that's just a sign to walk away from it for a few days, at least for me in these games.  Lest I break something.  Though I'm still pretty low level in a general sense so I cant really complain too much.

As it is though I STILL havent gotten back on, since Comcast has been all "DUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRR" for the past 4 days or so.  You know, standard operating procedure for them.

Did you know it's possible to have 80 connection fails in 15 minutes?  I sure didn't.  Now I do.

It aint acting too bad today so far, at least.  I did at least get the game patched....
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 10, 2014, 12:14:56 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/61AWJK5.jpg)

I'll give you one guess which two are my friend and I.

In all seriousness though, apart from a couple bad games, everything went okay as long as I had a decent friend with me.

There was one game in particular where we were placed against a "Golden Bakasura", who was ranked Level 9 on that character, and had upward of 800 kills according to his picture. On our team we had a Ymir for whom it was his first game. He ended up leaving.

Once again, the Smite matchmaking system remains a total mystery to me.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 10, 2014, 03:38:15 AM
Yeah, the matchmaking *is* one of Smite's weak points, but generally it does work decently. But then and again it gets a giant hickup and pits a team with an average of 3 masteries against a 40+ mastery team. It's like "WHAT?"
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 10, 2014, 09:29:16 AM
Yeah, the matchmaking *is* one of Smite's weak points, but generally it does work decently. But then and again it gets a giant hickup and pits a team with an average of 3 masteries against a 40+ mastery team. It's like "WHAT?"
The characters you don't pick revert to their normal literary roles: setting up absurd and disastrous situations for others in order to get a laugh ;)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 10, 2014, 09:32:36 AM
I might also have to add that if you intend to play Smite competitively together with and against competent people, you really need to get into league games and at least progress up to and above gold league. Only there does the actual "meat" of Smite competitive games happen. Below that you have a lot of people either being too bad to progress, or good people still progressing through the league. And casual (called Normal in Smite) is, well, casual.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 10, 2014, 11:05:08 AM
I might also have to add that if you intend to play Smite competitively together with and against competent people, you really need to get into league games and at least progress up to and above gold league. Only there does the actual "meat" of Smite competitive games happen. Below that you have a lot of people either being too bad to progress, or good people still progressing through the league. And casual (called Normal in Smite) is, well, casual.


So how do these work exactly?

I aint familiar with this aspect of the game.  Typically with any of these games I play unranked matches (regardless of win/loss ratios) until I feel like I'm getting somewhere with it and know some of the characters well enough.  It can take awhile, particularly as my memory is so bad.... remembering what all of the blasted items do is the hardest part.  Figuring out what to build and why is the OTHER hard part, in any of these.

And of course nobody I know around my area plays ANY of these, which doesnt help.  And the occaisional friends I meet online who play these tend to have schedules that are the opposite of mine for the most part; asleep while I'm awake, not intersecting all that often.

In other news, Comcast is still screwing up.  I would like to hit whoever is responsible.  With a moose.


Really though, the ONLY online game I've played in the last week is Hearthstone, and earlier in the night it was too messed up even for that.   Most interested in Dawngate right now.... really enjoying the heck outta that one even if I dont quite grasp the overall strategies yet (those circle things with the workers complicate everything.... as does the regenerating towers).  And Smite since I hadnt been on in so long, and it looks like alot of favorable changes have occurred.  Not to mention the character roster having improved, and theoretically less wonky glitches on my machine (which was a problem before, or I mighta played it more). 

Hm, and Infinite Crisis to a slightly lesser degree.... they FINALLY added their three-lane map, and it looks quite good.  Aint gotten to try it yet though.... I only JUST got a key for it (that map is a closed-beta sort of thing as they test and balance it to death) but..... yeah, that whole "Comcast screwing up all week" bit.  Argh.

EDIT:  Aaaaaaaand I probably wont be playing any for a few days either.  Bah.  Back is acting up and my hand is going all tingly again (this winter has been abnormally bad for this sort of thing).   Yay, more therapy!   Just having the best damn week ever here. Bah. 
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 10, 2014, 12:14:46 PM
I might also have to add that if you intend to play Smite competitively together with and against competent people, you really need to get into league games and at least progress up to and above gold league. Only there does the actual "meat" of Smite competitive games happen. Below that you have a lot of people either being too bad to progress, or good people still progressing through the league. And casual (called Normal in Smite) is, well, casual.

So how do these work exactly?


In short: Every win gains you a certain amount of league points. Winstreaks increase the points recieved by one every win, losses gain you half the win points and you go down one point for the next match. The top 20% of the current league gets promoted to next league up when the season is over. (usually 2-4 weeks)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: tigersfan on February 10, 2014, 12:38:17 PM
I might also have to add that if you intend to play Smite competitively together with and against competent people, you really need to get into league games and at least progress up to and above gold league. Only there does the actual "meat" of Smite competitive games happen. Below that you have a lot of people either being too bad to progress, or good people still progressing through the league. And casual (called Normal in Smite) is, well, casual.

So how do these work exactly?


In short: Every win gains you a certain amount of league points. Winstreaks increase the points recieved by one every win, losses gain you half the win points and you go down one point for the next match. The top 20% of the current league gets promoted to next league up when the season is over. (usually 2-4 weeks)

If you want an in-depth explanation of how it works, you can watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl7a6ZDOAxc .
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 10, 2014, 09:17:14 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/a7FbUfg.jpg)

WHAT?!!!!!




(http://i.imgur.com/4MEJCZW.jpg)

Our two randoms left at 10 minutes. Like seriously, this is insane.

Game was over before it even began.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 11, 2014, 06:09:02 AM
To be fair, the actual total number of masteries (the lightning bolt) were fairly equal. The other on your team might have legendary rankings in the other masteries they have for all you know. That said, it's not that fun getting matched up against people of equal skill, only to have one team pick new gods to experiment with and have the other team pick gods they were very comfortable with.
 
You should rarely, if ever, look at the specific god they have mastered, unless they are rank 6+. It's rather meaningless. What does mean something is the amount of total god masteries they have. Someone with a large total of masteries have a MUCH better grasp of the game, other gods and potential counters, than someone with rank 10 in one god.
 
Also you seem to be having a LOT of bad luck with matchmaking :P I rarely ever get leavers, even in bad games.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 11, 2014, 09:29:50 AM

 
Also you seem to be having a LOT of bad luck with matchmaking :P I rarely ever get leavers, even in bad games.

This.

I hardly ever see that sort either, and I mean for the genre as a whole, not just this game.   And I guarantee I'm at quite a bit lower level than anyone else here, likely, so where I'm at I'm more likely to see leavers and asshats than higher rank players are.  Or at least, that's how it goes in most of these games.   The most bad luck I've had is in Dota 2, and by that I mean it has been MARGINALLY worse than the others.  They're all pretty much the same about it.

But I'll see how it goes with this game specifically later.  If Comcast has one of it's better days, AKA, one where it's not COMPLETELY insane, I think I might be able to get on today.   Aint as physically messed up today as I thought I was gonna be.

Many new gods I'll have to get used to... the last one I was working with was Fenrir, who mostly seemed to consist of running around ganking endlessly with his high-damage combo. Also he's got the funnest ultimate so far.  There was evil cackling involved when using him.

That new rock guy looks like one I'd enjoy, so I'll probably try him out.  Forget the name.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 11, 2014, 09:54:25 AM
Yeah well, for me there are basically leavers every game.

Also, I disagree with you about the "God Ranking" doesn't matter. When it's clear someone has played 50+ games with a single God, they are going to have a mastery of that God much greater than somebody who may be decent with most of them. Sure, the person who is decent with all gods may be pretty good at the "Assault" game mode, but I have a hard time believing that their mastery of one God will be the same as somebody who plays that God almost exclusively, or at least regularly.

You're also either forgetting or ignoring the skill gap here. The matchmaking system *gave us* two bad players. Both of them had only mastered one God, and the ones they were playing weren't even those that they had mastered. They looked like complete noobs, and they were complete noobs. Then they left the game at 10 minutes because we were getting destroyed so hard.

Games like this happen constantly. I'll probably take a break from it for awhile until they fix some things like this, hopefully in the future.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 12, 2014, 11:38:37 AM
Woo, team of Russians.

(http://i.imgur.com/LjpMhxO.jpg)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: zespri on February 12, 2014, 11:03:00 PM
Woo, team of Russians.
And god knows we do hate those terrible Russians!  :P
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 13, 2014, 10:21:57 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/5NuvTdP.jpg)

And a leaver. Every game.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 13, 2014, 12:43:38 PM
Haha, man you are really hitting them! I haven't seen a leaver in days :P
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 13, 2014, 01:07:41 PM
Perhaps the matchmaking doesn't have the goals we think it does.


"This player appears to need additional practice dealing with frustration.  I know exactly the right team."
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 13, 2014, 01:08:02 PM
Perhaps the matchmaking doesn't have the goals we think it does.


"This player appears to need additional practice dealing with frustration.  I know exactly the right team."
Haha, this might be true. :D
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 13, 2014, 01:48:04 PM
Perhaps the matchmaking doesn't have the goals we think it does.


"This player appears to need additional practice dealing with frustration.  I know exactly the right team."
Haha, this might be true. :D
Haha well, if that *is* the goal, it's doing a great job.

In all seriousness though, it's the bad teammates that bother me over the leavers. I can win 4v5, I've done it a few times before. If you're gonna give me leavers fine, just give me some competent people!

Finally got a good team last game so I can't complain too much :P
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mick on February 13, 2014, 02:11:45 PM
I've always had the attitude in these team style games that idiot players end up making things a wash over many games. If an idiot is in a game, you only have a bit less than a 50% chance he'll be on your team (unless you yourself are the idiot, heh).

There's a bit of bias that goes on in categorizing wins and losses. Players win because they are skilled and awesome (not because the other team had a feeder), they lose because of poor luck/bad-teammates (rarely because they were simply outplayed).

Hell, it doesn't even apply just to team games. Card games like Hearthstone. Every win = skill, every loss = opponent got lucky. No one ever wins because *they* got lucky. :D

I try not to let such things get to me. I just play the best that I can and shrug off losing.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 13, 2014, 03:41:17 PM
I've always had the attitude in these team style games that idiot players end up making things a wash over many games. If an idiot is in a game, you only have a bit less than a 50% chance he'll be on your team (unless you yourself are the idiot, heh).

There's a bit of bias that goes on in categorizing wins and losses. Players win because they are skilled and awesome (not because the other team had a feeder), they lose because of poor luck/bad-teammates (rarely because they were simply outplayed).

Hell, it doesn't even apply just to team games. Card games like Hearthstone. Every win = skill, every loss = opponent got lucky. No one ever wins because *they* got lucky. :D

I try not to let such things get to me. I just play the best that I can and shrug off losing.
My problem with the Smite MM system is not that it gives me one bad player, but a team of bad players, at least compared to their team. If it was just one "idiot" as you say, then that would be doable.

However, when your entire team goes negative almost every game, and you're the only player going positive (or anywhere close to positive), that's a whole different subject than just one bad player.

I don't really mind losing either. Honestly, I don't. Losing means I simply need to improve my skills as a player. However, losing in a fairly even-matched game in which both sides had some good and some bad players, and losing in a one-sided stomp which consistently causes people to leave because it's so unbelievably unbalanced (aka most Smite games I play) is a completely different story.

If winning were all that mattered to me (not even games), I would just begin making new accounts every time I started being considered "God Himself" or whatever by the matchmaking system. The first 10-15 games weren't really a challenge, then things seemed pretty even, then suddenly my next 20 games are being stuck on teams that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. I'm just saying there's gotta be a happy medium somewhere.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 13, 2014, 03:51:08 PM
Okay, I take that back. Clearly I have been doing too good lately, because my god what scrubs I've been teamed up with today. Ugh. Enough Smite for today methinks :P
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 14, 2014, 12:49:06 AM
I've always had the attitude in these team style games that idiot players end up making things a wash over many games. If an idiot is in a game, you only have a bit less than a 50% chance he'll be on your team (unless you yourself are the idiot, heh).

There's a bit of bias that goes on in categorizing wins and losses. Players win because they are skilled and awesome (not because the other team had a feeder), they lose because of poor luck/bad-teammates (rarely because they were simply outplayed).

Hell, it doesn't even apply just to team games. Card games like Hearthstone. Every win = skill, every loss = opponent got lucky. No one ever wins because *they* got lucky. :D

I try not to let such things get to me. I just play the best that I can and shrug off losing.


Ahhh, I can agree with this one, a thousand times over.

I've seen this in the fighting game genre about 20 billionty times. When I completely stomp someone, it's always "well if such and such thing had worked CORRECTLY in that match, you definitely woulda lost".  Even if it's the 15th time in a row that the stomping has occurred.  And of course nobody in that genre can just have matches for fun, it's always super-serious and ya gotta follow the metagame and the tiers and you're a scrub if you dont use the RIGHT combos (even if you're winning like crazy with the "wrong" ones).  Ugh.  These trends in competetive games are very.... irritating.

Though it's at it's worst when watching videos with commentary in games like Dota or LoL or whatever.   I watch a lot of videos of Dota done by Purge, which involves him commenting during matches he had, and even with someone like him who often acts very professional and never goes into rage mode, it's always always always things like:  "Well, see, if such and such teammate had done THIS instead of THAT, and if this other thing had been like this, the enemy would never have won that teamfight.  We woulda taken them out with ease" and such as that.  The enemy is NEVER skilled... it's just allies that make mistakes that cause losses!

I typically do as you do and try to simply do the best I can in any match regardless of what's going on.  Regardless of wether we win or lose, my own performance can be good or bad, seperate of that, and that's what I focus on.


And it's rare that I get into what I personally classify as a "good" team.  I dont mean "skilled" here, I'm talking more about attitude and such.  I had a match in Dawngate recently where we had this one guy who was REALLY new, and hadnt the foggiest idea as to what he should be doing at any given time.  But since it was a good team, we all just encouraged the guy to experiment and to feel free to try things out or ask questions or whatever, and learn as he goes.  Nobody yelled, nobody insulted anyone..... it was good overall.  They're much more fun that way.  Too many players forget what "fun" is, and they forget that it's supposed to be one of the points of gaming in the first place.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 14, 2014, 10:46:28 AM
Too many players forget what "fun" is, and they forget that it's supposed to be one of the points of gaming in the first place.
This. So many times this. I wish more gamers would realize this. I can imagine having a hyper-competitive mindset in ranked games, but when you are in casual, why do you even bother? I mean, even if people on my team screw up to no end, I rarely, if ever, complain in chat. I might swear IRL, but I'll never let that go out over my fellow players, unless I'm having a really bad day and am just incapable of controlling myself.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 14, 2014, 10:59:51 AM
Not letting "playing to win" get in the way of "playing for fun" is important, but there's another factor involved.

Generally speaking, tactical situations are most interesting when it's a close fight.  Doesn't mean the sides have to be "balanced", in that a vastly inferior force in a great position can do remarkably well in an exciting way.  But if it's just a stomp because the battle was won "before it started" then the tactical excitement is much lower.

It's not even a matter of losing not being fun.  If you play 20 games and 10 are "we got completely stomped, no contest at any point" and the other 10 are "they got completely stomped, no contest at any point" then it's not nearly as exciting as close fights.

Smite sounds like the kind of game where you can still have fun doing that, particularly early on, but in a genre where people are used to being able to play thousands of matches and still enjoy it... well, the fun of simply-playing-it may not hold out.

Of course, it doesn't sound like it's quite so bad as to have a run of 20 "no contest" games, and I imagine the matchmaking will get better with time :)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: tigersfan on February 14, 2014, 11:45:25 AM
This. So many times this. I wish more gamers would realize this. I can imagine having a hyper-competitive mindset in ranked games, but when you are in casual, why do you even bother? I mean, even if people on my team screw up to no end, I rarely, if ever, complain in chat. I might swear IRL, but I'll never let that go out over my fellow players, unless I'm having a really bad day and am just incapable of controlling myself.

Or if the team mate is a friend and is on mumble with you. :p
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 14, 2014, 05:33:53 PM
Mostly I just complain and curse at Timmy, because he's just so funny to berate :D
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on February 15, 2014, 04:38:48 AM
Mostly I just complain and curse at Timmy, because he's just so funny to berate :D

I sensed a disturbance in the force over here and it seems this is why.

Why? Why is it so funny to berate me?! It's like I have this disease that never goes away even post HS. :(

;)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 16, 2014, 11:31:32 AM
Not letting "playing to win" get in the way of "playing for fun" is important, but there's another factor involved.

Generally speaking, tactical situations are most interesting when it's a close fight.  Doesn't mean the sides have to be "balanced", in that a vastly inferior force in a great position can do remarkably well in an exciting way.  But if it's just a stomp because the battle was won "before it started" then the tactical excitement is much lower.

It's not even a matter of losing not being fun.  If you play 20 games and 10 are "we got completely stomped, no contest at any point" and the other 10 are "they got completely stomped, no contest at any point" then it's not nearly as exciting as close fights.

Smite sounds like the kind of game where you can still have fun doing that, particularly early on, but in a genre where people are used to being able to play thousands of matches and still enjoy it... well, the fun of simply-playing-it may not hold out.

Of course, it doesn't sound like it's quite so bad as to have a run of 20 "no contest" games, and I imagine the matchmaking will get better with time :)
Pretty much this.

If you were looking for a casual experience where you weren't challenged at all, you probably wouldn't be playing a MOBA in the first place.

Since you are playing a MOBA, chances are you're looking for relatively even games in which both teams have a reasonable chance of winning. People who say "why can't people just enjoy playing the game" don't really seem to understand the mentality behind playing in this genre. If you wanna just play something to have fun, go play Diablo 3, or Sim City, or Tomb Raider or any other of tens of thousands of games that don't require a competitive mentality or the desire to be challenged to win.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 16, 2014, 12:10:00 PM
If you were looking for a casual experience where you weren't challenged at all, you probably wouldn't be playing a MOBA in the first place.

Since you are playing a MOBA, chances are you're looking for relatively even games in which both teams have a reasonable chance of winning. People who say "why can't people just enjoy playing the game" don't really seem to understand the mentality behind playing in this genre. If you wanna just play something to have fun, go play Diablo 3, or Sim City, or Tomb Raider or any other of tens of thousands of games that don't require a competitive mentality or the desire to be challenged to win.
True enough, but "playing to win" STILL doesn't mean "be a douchebag to anyone who isn't MLG level".
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on February 16, 2014, 12:44:56 PM
If you were looking for a casual experience where you weren't challenged at all, you probably wouldn't be playing a MOBA in the first place.
...

If you wanna just play something to have fun, go play Diablo 3, or Sim City, or Tomb Raider or any other of tens of thousands of games that don't require a competitive mentality or the desire to be challenged to win.


Isn't that awfully elitist? I have known more than a few people who are not particularly good at these games who just want to play. In fact, the team-based nature of it allows people to shield their own ego even when they are terrible at the game. Every once in a while, someone with a girl's name joins, and the insults of "go play the Sims" start coming in, because apparently this is a serious game for only serious players.


My personal opinion is go join a league or a clan if you want serious gaming of like-minded individuals. It's as intelligent as banging your head on a brick wall to expect a massive game population to always be above average gamers. By definition, there's going to be average, and by definition, there's going to be below average. You have to be able to play with all of them, and in my opinion the most successful gamers are the ones who make other players better, and not just their own scores.


I think also what happens with this kind of team game is, people have unrealistic expectations of being the hero that carries every round, how awesome they are, and they break their own wrist patting themselves on the back. This genre attracts narcissist gamers who really need an audience (the other nine people playing) for their own perceived awesomeness. Legends in their own minds. How many people play this game because they want to have nice social gaming session with other people? "Let's go meet the nice people on dota!" Of course not. It's more like, let's dominate and show off for nine other people.


I enjoy playing these games now and then, but I despise the average personality who plays them.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 16, 2014, 01:08:58 PM
I've enjoyed playing some moba games against the AI (and derive great glee from getting like 50 kills in a bots game with Ryze in LoL or whatever) but yea: the chances of my actually hopping into a vs-bots game with randomly-selected other people (much less a vs-people game) is very low because even the relatively reasonable people I've seen talk about it take a fairly "no excuses" approach to team play. 

My internet connection, for example, is pretty good but it does drop here and there particularly in some MP games (like Terraria, even LAN for some reason seems to nuke the connection... anyway).  That would be a problem if people are looking for no excuses.

I also have three kids, and in any given 15-minute period there's a definitely non-zero chance they'll need attention of some sort on essentially zero notice.  That would be a problem if people are looking for no excuses.

That's even before getting into questions of me simply not being good at the game, or folks being nasty.  Those are theoretically avoidable problems.  But the general expectations of team members seem reasonable, so I avoid disappointing others or frazzling myself by simply not playing them on random teams.

All that to say, social pathologies aside, it's ok for different game communities to have different expectations of players.

Though in practice there are much bigger problems going on which kind of dwarf those distinctions.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 16, 2014, 01:21:27 PM
Quote
If you were looking for a casual experience where you weren't challenged at all, you probably wouldn't be playing a MOBA in the first place.
Quote
Isn't that awfully elitist? I have known more than a few people who are not particularly good at these games who just want to play.
It's not elitist. I said nothing about being good at the game. I don't know where you got that from.

I said that if you are playing in this genre (MOBA), then you probably have a desire to be challenged. You probably get some enjoyment out of being challenged. That has nothing to do with whether or not you're good at the game.

The argument that, at least for DotA, people play it just to win every game and never be challenged is self-defeating. If someone's goal really was just to win every game without being challenged, they could simply create a new Steam account every time they began to be matched against teams of equal skill levels. Fortunately this doesn't happen that often. People continue to play even though the MM system puts them at or around games of their skill level. There is nothing elitist about recognizing this.

The people I was referring to specifically was those who were saying, "Some people just want to have fun." I agree, everyone wants to have fun, but in this genre it's heavily implied that "fun" equates to having an equally balanced game where both sides stand a chance of winning.

Quote
I think also what happens with this kind of team game is, people have unrealistic expectations of being the hero that carries every round, how awesome they are, and they break their own wrist patting themselves on the back. This genre attracts narcissist gamers who really need an audience (the other nine people playing) for their own perceived awesomeness. Legends in their own minds. How many people play this game because they want to have nice social gaming session with other people? "Let's go meet the nice people on dota!" Of course not. It's more like, let's dominate and show off for nine other people.
I think this attitude is elitist, because you're basically calling tens of millions of people narcissists who need to prove their own dominance over others.

I don't see it like that at all. I think this genre attracts people who want to be intellectually challenged and who enjoy working with others to accomplish a team objective. That doesn't make them narcissistic at all and I think it's pretty terrible of you to say that.

Are there narcissistic gamers in the genre? Yes, and in every other genre as well.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Kahuna on February 16, 2014, 03:14:40 PM
If you wanna just play something to have fun, go play Diablo 3, or Sim City, or Tomb Raider or any other of tens of thousands of games that don't require a competitive mentality or the desire to be challenged to win.
Because one can't have fun and take the game seriously (but not too seriously) at the same time. :o

I think this genre attracts people who are intellectually challenged
FTFY

and who enjoy working with others to accomplish a team objective.
(http://thefbe.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/league-of-legends-troll-quotes-perma-ban-ezreal.png)(http://www.newsoflegends.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/singed1.png)
(http://thefbe.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/league-of-legends-rage-troll-chat.png)(http://www.newsoflegends.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/cho1.png)
(http://thefbe.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/league-of-legends-bad-manner.png)

Quote from: averageMOBAplayer
Me big
You small
Me win
You lose
Me report
You n00b
Barf

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 16, 2014, 03:19:47 PM
As much as Kahuna's post makes me laugh, this DOES happen in MOBAs. Thankfully we're so far pretty spared from it in Smite due to the small player base, but it does happen. Thankfully, most people seem sensible enough to go "Oh, you're an asshole, so just let me report you for harassment" and that gets taken care of. But MOBAs do have one of the most toxic player bases there is. There's really only one other player base that is worse; Call of Duty.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on February 16, 2014, 03:29:52 PM
There's really only one other player base that is worse; Call of Duty.


True story. Call of Duty has the extra challenge of people being able to hear you, so any kind of difference they can pick out: race, gender, age, whatever's going on in the background, it's all used against you in the usual, vile internet bullying that goes on in these games. Again, as I said before, it goes back to everyone wanting to be the hero and putting down everyone else.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Kahuna on February 16, 2014, 03:30:34 PM
Call of Duty.
http://youtu.be/7Fm5s28CM6c?t=3m14s
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 16, 2014, 04:09:35 PM
As much as Kahuna's post makes me laugh, this DOES happen in MOBAs. Thankfully we're so far pretty spared from it in Smite due to the small player base, but it does happen. Thankfully, most people seem sensible enough to go "Oh, you're an asshole, so just let me report you for harassment" and that gets taken care of. But MOBAs do have one of the most toxic player bases there is. There's really only one other player base that is worse; Call of Duty.
I'll admit that the Smite community is pretty nice compared to some of the other ones, though it is still in beta so we'll see what happens once it goes public :P

Still though, the typical raging, tourettes, unforgiving player is the minority in these kinds of games. I don't think it attracts people like this, I think the genre is just so dang competitive that it brings out that side of people. Most people just aren't put into that kind of competitive environment in their daily lives, but suffice it to say that many people I know would act just the same way if they were. Why do you think there's rules against this kind of behavior in most professional sports?

One word: Hockey. I rest my case.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 17, 2014, 04:09:27 PM
Alright, after having played a few smurf games and watched a few smurf videos (mostly from people just playing support and HELPING the "noobs" rather than facepwning everything because "lol noobs", leaving seems really common at low levels. Usually when the games starts going south for one of the teams, at least 2 people seem to leave the game, never to come back.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 17, 2014, 05:57:21 PM
Alright, after having played a few smurf games and watched a few smurf videos (mostly from people just playing support and HELPING the "noobs" rather than facepwning everything because "lol noobs", leaving seems really common at low levels. Usually when the games starts going south for one of the teams, at least 2 people seem to leave the game, never to come back.
I wasn't going to say anything cuz I feel like I've already complained too much about Smite, but yeah, they need harsher punishments on leavers. A 30 minute MM cooldown isn't really anything if you can just leave and do something else for awhile. I'm level ~15 and there are leavers in like literally EVERY game.

In DotA if you or ANYONE in the party you queued with leaves, there's a massive punishment after only a couple times. You're put in the "low-priority" queue where it takes forever to find a game, you aren't rewarded for your acheivements at the end (like in normal games), and most importantly, in a hilarious twist of irony, you're forced to play with other leavers such as yourself. The last part is by far the worst part of the punishment. The people who are too impatient to finish a game or who often rage quit tend to be less intelligent, more ragey, and overall not very fun to play with.

It gets worse though. DotA not only forces you to play with these people, but you can't just "wait" the timer out like you used to be able to. You have to play a set number of games, and STAY TIL THE END if you want to get out of low priority. It's literally soul-crushing.

HoN's punishment is arguably even worse, because if you get into their "leaver status" zone, you can't even use the matchmaking system anymore. You're basically stuck with leavers and ragers indefinitely.

So yeah, Smite needs to step it up a notch.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 17, 2014, 07:35:06 PM
I agree fully, and it's being talked about both on Hirez offices and community levels.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 17, 2014, 11:35:21 PM
If you wanna just play something to have fun, go play Diablo 3, or Sim City, or Tomb Raider or any other of tens of thousands of games that don't require a competitive mentality or the desire to be challenged to win.
Because one can't have fun and take the game seriously (but not too seriously) at the same time. :o

Aye, I have to comment on this bit as well.

The idea that "being challenged" and "having fun" have to be seperate things at all times is, to me, bloody stupid.

As gamers go, I'm one of the rare few that really enjoys a good challenge.  Further than that though, I typically need the challenge level to be MUCH higher than what most would consider to be normal just for a game to even hold my attention.  Something like Dark Souls?  Not good enough.  Too easy.  Not a bad game, but I got bored.   Something like this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uON3zty3-Q  is along the lines of something that I enjoy.  Granted that particular example is a bit extreme, but it ranks as one of my favorite games of all time.

But I dont play something like that just because of the challenge level.  If I'm not also genuinely enjoying it and having a good time, I dont bother.  Because what's the point?  What does it accomplish if it's not providing fun and enjoyment?

Going along with the concept, the fact of having fun while playing it does NOT prevent me from doing all of the crazy crap in the vid there.  Quite the opposite:  If I start to get angry at it, my performance just goes down the drain, which also seems to be the case for most gamers in an overall sense.

And I really think alot of gamers these days do not think about or even REALIZE that one simple fact, and that's one of my biggest problems with competetive gaming.  Whenever I see it happening, I always wanna say "You know, if you werent screaming f-bombs at your teammates here, you MIGHT be able to be doing alot better yourself, possibly, perhaps, maybe, potentially, and they would too".

And yes, I do alot of competetive gaming as I believe I've mentioned.  Fighting games at a very high level.  So I'm not unfamiliar with the idea, and as such I reiterate that going into these with the objective of having a good time is the BEST way to do it.  You wanna do the best that you can?  Then have some bloody FUN with it already.  You get yourself into a good mood, and you'll do MUCH better than you otherwise would..... and on top of that, you'll be yelling at your teammates less, which means that not only will they do better, they'll also learn more from any given match due to the lack of being screamed at.  If the whole team is having a good time, they're well on their way to becoming that much better.   That hyper-serious attitude?  Slows ya down.  Simple as that.


There's a quote I really like, that I saw when watching a stream of a Smite player... who looked pretty irritated the whole time... that was doing league games (or whatever that mode is called), which kinda sums up some of my thoughts on the matter overall:  "his face is exactly why i dont do leagues. hes not even having fun. not having fun is a waste of time."   I think I mighta quoted it before, but it fits all of this here, so I quote it again.


The concepts of having fun, being challenged, playing to win, practicing seriously..... these dont have to be seperate at all.   They're at their best when all put together.   And it's really too bad that more people cant see this, particularly since it's so simple....
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 18, 2014, 07:42:18 AM
I think you may be taking what I said out of context:

Quote
I said that if you are playing in this genre (MOBA), then you probably have a desire to be challenged. You probably get some enjoyment out of being challenged. That has nothing to do with whether or not you're good at the game.

The people I was referring to specifically was those who were saying, "Some people just want to have fun." I agree, everyone wants to have fun, but in this genre it's heavily implied that "fun" equates to having an equally balanced game where both sides stand a chance of winning.
I specifically said that, in this genre, being challenged is what creates the fun for most people.

They are not separate.

But what some of you seem to be completely ignoring is that there are gamers out there (usually not MOBA players) who don't have to be challenged to have fun. Some people just like playing through a story, interacting with other people, or just the repetitive tasks in many RPGs or MMOs and that is "fun" to them. There is no challenge necessary. It's pretty hard to deny that people like this exist.

My original point was addressing somebody who said (or heavily implied) that you can separate "fun" from "being challenged" in this genre, and on that point I must heavily disagree.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 18, 2014, 08:54:01 AM
By the way, I just got a closed beta key to Strife (http://strife.com/), S2's new MOBA that (from what I've read) looks to bridge to gap between LoL and DotA.

In other words, if those two games are the extremes (too casual and too competitive) then Strife aims to shoot somewhere in-between. Being a self-proclaimed "Second Generation MOBA", it's eighty-sixing some of the more tedious and frustrating mechanics like last hitting, and claims the introduction of new flexible roles will allow people to play their own way.

I think the genre has a lot of room to grow and could be improved on in a lot of areas. Hopefully Strife contains some of that neat innovation we've all been waiting for. I'll let you all know how it goes.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 18, 2014, 09:35:12 AM
By the way, I just got a closed beta key to Strife (http://strife.com/), S2's new MOBA that (from what I've read) looks to bridge to gap between LoL and DotA.

In other words, if those two games are the extremes (too casual and too competitive) then Strife aims to shoot somewhere in-between. Being a self-proclaimed "Second Generation MOBA", it's eighty-sixing some of the more tedious and frustrating mechanics like last hitting, and claims the introduction of new flexible roles will allow people to play their own way.

I think the genre has a lot of room to grow and could be improved on in a lot of areas. Hopefully Strife contains some of that neat innovation we've all been waiting for. I'll let you all know how it goes.

I had never heard of this before, so I went and clicked, and the first thing I saw was what appeared to be a floating superhero cat.... and thus, I did the signup.

Wether or not the signup will accomplish anything is another matter.  I do so very much beta testing but I always always hate the signup bit, with the super-random choices of who they send keys to.  Did the signup for Blizzard's game as well.

Currently my attention is still almost entirely focused on Dawngate, which is so far living up to my expectations.   That is.... when I can play it!  Good ol' reliable Comcast (and by "reliable" I mean "no") is breaking new records here.  180+ connection failures in one night is.... a bit absurd.  Cant even play Hearthstone or something turn-based when it's THAT bad, which it is most of the time.  Aint been able to do ANY online gaming in the last week and a half.  Dawngate, Hearthstone, Infinite Crisis, World of Tanks.... I'd love to be messing with these, but noooooooooooo.

Getting a new blasted modem (for like the 8th time or so, I think it is now) in the next couple of days.    And if THAT doesnt work.... goodbye Crapcast, hello...... freaking DSL.  Ugh.  I really dont want DSL.  But at this point, a downgrade to DSL is an UPGRADE from bloody Comcast.  I'm actually not expecting the new modem to solve anything at all.  Even the cable lines (or whatever it is) to the TVs and such are getting wonky, which is new.  And their automated phone help line thing glitched out at me at one point.  "Welcome to SQUAWK" followed by bubbles isnt what I expect to hear when I call them. 

Mostly playing Anno 2070 and Minecraft while waiting for that and for the next update to Last Federation here. 


I'll be interested to hear about this Strife game though.  Definitely what I most want out of this genre right now is more games like Dawngate or Blizzard's upcoming thing that DONT just super-directly copy Dota/LoL. 
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 18, 2014, 09:47:16 AM
By the way, I just got a closed beta key to Strife (http://strife.com/), S2's new MOBA that (from what I've read) looks to bridge to gap between LoL and DotA.

In other words, if those two games are the extremes (too casual and too competitive) then Strife aims to shoot somewhere in-between. Being a self-proclaimed "Second Generation MOBA", it's eighty-sixing some of the more tedious and frustrating mechanics like last hitting, and claims the introduction of new flexible roles will allow people to play their own way.

I think the genre has a lot of room to grow and could be improved on in a lot of areas. Hopefully Strife contains some of that neat innovation we've all been waiting for. I'll let you all know how it goes.

I had never heard of this before, so I went and clicked, and the first thing I saw was what appeared to be a floating superhero cat.... and thus, I did the signup.

Wether or not the signup will accomplish anything is another matter.  I do so very much beta testing but I always always hate the signup bit, with the super-random choices of who they send keys to.  Did the signup for Blizzard's game as well.

Currently my attention is still almost entirely focused on Dawngate, which is so far living up to my expectations.   That is.... when I can play it!  Good ol' reliable Comcast (and by "reliable" I mean "no") is breaking new records here.  180+ connection failures in one night is.... a bit absurd.  Cant even play Hearthstone or something turn-based when it's THAT bad, which it is most of the time.  Aint been able to do ANY online gaming in the last week and a half.  Dawngate, Hearthstone, Infinite Crisis, World of Tanks.... I'd love to be messing with these, but noooooooooooo.

Getting a new blasted modem (for like the 8th time or so, I think it is now) in the next couple of days.    And if THAT doesnt work.... goodbye Crapcast, hello...... freaking DSL.  Ugh.  I really dont want DSL.  But at this point, a downgrade to DSL is an UPGRADE from bloody Comcast.  I'm actually not expecting the new modem to solve anything at all.  Even the cable lines (or whatever it is) to the TVs and such are getting wonky, which is new.  And their automated phone help line thing glitched out at me at one point.  "Welcome to SQUAWK" followed by bubbles isnt what I expect to hear when I call them. 

Mostly playing Anno 2070 and Minecraft while waiting for that and for the next update to Last Federation here. 


I'll be interested to hear about this Strife game though.  Definitely what I most want out of this genre right now is more games like Dawngate or Blizzard's upcoming thing that DONT just super-directly copy Dota/LoL.
I also have Comcast, and was experiencing some problems with it until I got my own service (previously I was sharing service with about 1,000 other people on my apartment's shared internet, what a headache).

The modem they gave me was a giant piece of crap. I had to reset it like every 18 hours because it would slow down and disrupt my service for basically no reason at all.

I ended up buying my own (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000JV9LUK/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) on Amazon and I don't regret the decision. My internet service has been much higher quality since I chose to do that, and now I don't have to pay $8 monthly for their terrible modems that they give me.

I don't know if that's the problem in your case, but it could certainly help. Though I think that, if I were in your situation, I probably would have switched to DSL a long time ago. I only deal with Comcast because it's the only ISP in this area. They have a very horrible reputation and it's probably deserved.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 18, 2014, 10:52:08 AM
I also have Comcast, and was experiencing some problems with it until I got my own service (previously I was sharing service with about 1,000 other people on my apartment's shared internet, what a headache).

The modem they gave me was a giant piece of crap. I had to reset it like every 18 hours because it would slow down and disrupt my service for basically no reason at all.

I ended up buying my own (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000JV9LUK/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) on Amazon and I don't regret the decision. My internet service has been much higher quality since I chose to do that, and now I don't have to pay $8 monthly for their terrible modems that they give me.

I don't know if that's the problem in your case, but it could certainly help. Though I think that, if I were in your situation, I probably would have switched to DSL a long time ago. I only deal with Comcast because it's the only ISP in this area. They have a very horrible reputation and it's probably deserved.

Yeah, I've often considered the switch to DSL, the core reason I hadnt done so yet was mostly sheer impatience.  Comcast blows, but when it DOES work the speed of it is excellent.   A great many times faster than DSL.  Heck, at one point my cousin, who has DSL at his place, needed to re-install basically everything onto his PC, much of which were enormous games like MMOs and such, so he dragged his entire PC over to my place to do it, since it changed a download that could take like 6 days into a download that took like 2-3 hours.   Me, I dont even come close to having the patience to tolerate a 6-day download.  I can barely tolerate 5 minutes.  Probably what makes it do this is the fact that there are very few people sharing the node (or whatever they call those). This house is in a very expensive area, and we're in a cul-de-sac that only has 2 other houses around it, since nobody can afford to buy the many empty lots to build stupidly pricey houses on them, so much of the area is blank lots.

.....though, when I think about it further, that probably makes it MORE sad, as it means the connection gets as berserk as it does with a maximum of not that many people using it at any given time.   ...yeah, that's kinda pathetic.

I hadnt thought of just buying a seperate modem myself... I'll keep that idea in mind.  Today I'll be able to set up the new one finally, from them, so I'll see how it goes.

And yeah, they really do deserve their terrible reputation.  I had asked my father to call them this time, because I did the calling the last 80 damn times and have been getting a tad frustrated at it, so he did so, and came back to me with the story of him asking where their local office is, so he can take the old one in and get the new one, and them taking 10 full minutes to NOT FIGURE IT OUT. They dont even know where it is. I think he had to go look it up himself.  THAT.... is just.... I dont even have words.  I know they're legendary for terrible customer service (their CEO thinks it's because they "get so many calls" all the time) but that's getting a bit silly.  I've had them for a LONG time, back since the time when 56k was starting to drain away and be replaced with everything else, and they've been awful every step of the way.

Speaking of which, an entertaining article if you've not read it before:  http://consumerist.com/2007/09/27/5-confessions-of-a-comcast-customer-service-rep/   An old article but that stuff pretty much still applies.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mick on February 18, 2014, 11:00:13 AM
That reminds me of when Time Warner sent me to a local office that no longer existed to exchange my cable box. I was lugging around the equipment in a mall that supposedly had their office wondering why there was simply a wall where the location supposedly was. I phoned the mall itself and they told me that the office was removed a while ago.

But don't worry Time Warner/Comcast users, the terribleness of both providers is soon going to merged into one uber-terrible provider. How that passes anti-trust review is beyond my comprehension.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Riabi on February 18, 2014, 11:06:01 AM
But don't worry Time Warner/Comcast users, the terribleness of both providers is soon going to merged into one uber-terrible provider. How that passes anti-trust review is beyond my comprehension.

It hasn't. At least not yet. Hopefully the Justice Department will put the smack down on that crap!
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 18, 2014, 11:09:40 AM
If Comcast and Time-Warner merge, will they implode into an incompetence singularity and thus get out of our hair?

If not, is Enigma available to assist in the process?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 18, 2014, 11:30:33 AM
If Comcast and Time-Warner merge, will they implode into an incompetence singularity and thus get out of our hair?

If not, is Enigma available to assist in the process?
Unfortunately, incompetence * incompetence is simply incompetence^2.

Even Enigma can't help in this situation, I feel that the only sound which will rectify this injustice is "Nuclear launch detected".
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 18, 2014, 11:34:19 AM
Unfortunately, incompetence * incompetence is simply incompetence^2.
Alas, the situation is too far gone, then.  If the incompetence in question were merely the negative of competence then this formula would give us hope.  As it is, their incompetence has crystalized into a palpable substance of its own.

Quote
Even Enigma can't help in this situation, I feel that the only sound which will rectify this injustice is "Nuclear launch detected".
I fear that, like throwing nukes at an incoming "guided moon", it will result in being struck with the same rock.  Only hotter.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 18, 2014, 11:36:29 AM
Unfortunately, incompetence * incompetence is simply incompetence^2.
Alas, the situation is too far gone, then.  If the incompetence in question were merely the negative of competence then this formula would give us hope.  As it is, their incompetence has crystalized into a palpable substance of its own.

Quote
Even Enigma can't help in this situation, I feel that the only sound which will rectify this injustice is "Nuclear launch detected".
I fear that, like throwing nukes at an incoming "guided moon", it will result in being struck with the same rock.  Only hotter.
The galaxy nuke then, just to be sure.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: mrhanman on February 18, 2014, 04:13:27 PM
The galaxy nuke then, just to be sure.

A color bomb.  A space-rotation bomb. (http://books.google.com/books?id=7AXkrd5SpyYC&pg=PT136&lpg=PT136&dq=space-rotation+bomb&source=bl&ots=Uo5gdt_ueb&sig=gC30KRimhv8e8tdDQnV8aGLz8V8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iMwDU46RDNPOkQfc24HwCA&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=space-rotation%20bomb&f=false)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 18, 2014, 04:46:11 PM
Had a close kill in Assault today.


Poseidon, Dying on the Edge! (http://youtu.be/3hL9pSgucwc)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 18, 2014, 06:28:07 PM
YOU'RE LIVING ON THE EDGE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nqcL0mjMjw)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 18, 2014, 08:56:21 PM
Played my first game of Strife. Impressions:

The good (and the new)

1. Feels great! Very nice graphics, responsiveness, presentation, and overall feel.

2. Integrated courier. Each player gets their own (invincible courier) that can deliver items to them from the base, then has a short cooldown before it can be used again.

3. Health and mana regen when out of battle for ~15 seconds. With this mechanic and the previous one, the player basically never has to go back to town.

4. Speed boost while in town to get you back out into the battle quickly.

5. Killing Roshan (Nashor) gives your team a giant Gorilla that goes down a lane and kills things (mostly towers).

Awesome mechanic
Last hitting still exists but gold is automatically split between any allied heroes in the lane. This makes supports vastly more relevant. Honestly it's pretty genius.

The interesting...

1. Each player gets a "pet" which they choose from outside the game and which persists between games, giving you special abilities and growing in level over time.

2. They keep the LoL "bush" mechanic, it's almost exactly the same.

3. All heroes free to play.

The bad...

1. There's some kind of mastery/crafting/item system that levels up your power outside the game. I suppose the pet is part of this as well. I obviously hate this kind of thing but I know too little about it at the moment to understand how much of an actual impact that it has.

Overall excited, looking forward to what else they do with it.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Riabi on February 19, 2014, 07:00:35 AM
From what you can tell, how important is last hitting?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 19, 2014, 09:22:51 AM
Well, my damn connection is fixed finally, getting rid of the old modem (again) finally, FINALLY did the trick, after waaaayyyyyyyyyyyy too long dealing with it.  Mighta done it earlier, but... snow... so much snow... it never stops...

And about bloody time, I've barely touched any of the multiplayer stuffs in like a month and a half.

Granted, I'll still have to put up with Comcast's occaisional outages that happen entirely on their side, or the bit where the connection goes really wonky if there's big storms around, but that's much less irritating than it only working for 2 minutes at a time.

Lessee, as for this Strife game:

Quote
2. Integrated courier. Each player gets their own (invincible courier) that can deliver items to them from the base, then has a short cooldown before it can be used again.

Ahhhhh, I like this one.  Dota, I dont like the courier system very much.  Not because it's a bad gameplay concept, because it definitely isnt, it's a pretty good idea, but because you have to deal with the entire team having ONE of the things, and, well..... yeah, you cant always rely on your teammates to be fair about it (or logical about it) unless you're always playing with the same group of people, which many players such as myself cannot do.

Quote
5. Killing Roshan (Nashor) gives your team a giant Gorilla that goes down a lane and kills things (mostly towers).

This had me at "giant gorilla".

Quote
Last hitting still exists but gold is automatically split between any allied heroes in the lane. This makes supports vastly more relevant. Honestly it's pretty genius.

This is a good one too.  I'm glad more games are doing this now, the last hitting is a bit too blasted obnoxious for my tastes, so this sounds good.  Dawngate does a very similar thing, though it's dependant on the "role" you choose, but generally as a support I dont have to always be out of gold, and I dont have to last-hit anything, period.  I just need to be nearby when minions/creeps/mobs/somethings are killed, wether they're last-hit properly or not.  And I can get more gold by simply irritating my opponent with constant pokes, which is highly entertaining.  Typically I have enough to get all the items I need, something I cant really say about Dota or LoL at all.   Infinite Crisis is doing something about the last-hitting as well, in that missing a last hit doesnt cause less money to be had, it instead simply drops the money onto the ground in the form of a coin that you must pick up, instead of giving it directly to you.

Quote
2. They keep the LoL "bush" mechanic, it's almost exactly the same.

Feh.  IS there a non-Dota moba that doesnt do this?  I mean, I can sorta see WHY they do it, but.... bah.  Never cared for it too much.

Quote
3. All heroes free to play.

About bloody time this one happened.  I understand the F2P model and why they work the way they do, but still.  Valve can do it in a different way, so others can too, they just havent...

Quote
1. There's some kind of mastery/crafting/item system that levels up your power outside the game. I suppose the pet is part of this as well. I obviously hate this kind of thing but I know too little about it at the moment to understand how much of an actual impact that it has.

Eeehhhh.   This one I dont mind too much, in concept.  My one problem with it is that players dont START with the necessary whatsits to fully use it, they must be earned, very, VERY slowly.  At least the exact implementation has been different enough from one game to the next.  Dawngate's is.... er..... confusing, frankly.  That one's complicated and I havent fully grasped it yet, but I do like the way it works. It'd take too long to give a full explanation of it.  Infinite Crisis finally added this sort of thing as well (as I knew they would) but I havent had a chance to mess with it yet so I dont know how it works.  The pet thing in Strife here sounds a little weird, but no weirder than the others, I suppose.  Probably.



Be sure to let us know what your impressions are as you continue further into it.  I'm interested in this one.  I've a feeling I'm not getting into it for awhile, but as new ones go Dawngate and Infinite Crisis will hold me over just fine for now.


Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 19, 2014, 01:49:01 PM
From what you can tell, how important is last hitting?
I haven't played that many games, so you can take this with a grain of salt (you can basically take everything I say with a grain of salt), but last hitting seems moderately important relative to the other MOBAs I've played.

Having said that, it's fairly easy to do. It's probably on the League of Legends level of last hitting, and since there's no denying, it makes it even easier. If you're a DotA veteran (or a MOBA veteran), it should be no problem. Add this to the fact that your lane mate's last hits also add to your gold count, and it's probably the easiest out of all the games I've played. The hardest place to last hit (and the exception of course) being the attempt to do it under a tower. In addition, there are like a million "neutral camps" (no idea why), so even if you suck at last hitting this seems to be another decent source of income that you can exploit.

Overall though, at least at this point in closed beta (i.e., I'm not sure if this is intentional), the biggest deciding factor of a game is each team's control of the "team objectives". So basically, what decides if you win is how well you can defeat the towers, inhibitors/rax, the "dragon/gold fury", and then the Roshan equivalent. There is definitely an emphasis on team objectives at this point. If you kill the "Roshan" monster boss, like I said you get a giant gorilla that eats towers for breakfast and is extremely difficult to kill.

In addition, once the inhibitor/rax is gone, it simply doesn't come back. So in this sense, once again, team objectives are extremely important. Finally, the LoL "Dragon" equivalent gives your entire team quite a bit of gold when killed, yet unlike in LoL it respawns like every 2.5 minutes so it's potentially a huge source of gold for your entire team and is a constant area of contention.

The fact that (at this point) there are no ward consumables in the game rewards the team that has greater map control, because it allows them to have greater control/domination of team objectives.

Wards have been replaced (I use this word lightly) by "observatories" which are like the Starcraft 2 equivalent to the Xel'Naga Towers. In other words, if one player (from either team) walks near one of these observatories, it gives that team vision in a large area around it. Once again, these kinds of features give a large advantage to the team which establishes map control.

So far I'm really liking the out-of-combat self-regeneration system. It saves you a lot of time and keeps you in the battle, per say, much more than any other MOBA I've played so far. Being able to stay in the action is a big part of establishing that map control I was talking about earlier, and it's probably a bad idea to be taking a lot trips back to base when you have so many mechanics which remove the need.

Sorry this was written badly, I just got finished with a massive Spanish exam and my brain is mush.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 20, 2014, 12:20:36 AM
Well, they just implemented the matchmaking system into the beta today.

It's the coolest MM system of any MOBA I've seen so far. You pick your hero/champion/god/character/person before you even QUEUE for matchmaking.

I have no idea how it sorts things, but for my last attempt, I was in a game within like ~5 seconds of picking my character and hitting the "find match" button. Not sitting in a lobby waiting for people to figure out what the hell they're doing, not discussing strategies or arguing roles with my team, literally at the loading screen of the game 5 seconds later.

I have no idea how they're planning to balance this. Perhaps the idea of solidified "roles" has been removed, and since wards are no longer in the game, and since all heroes share last hit gold in the lane, it's not super important that you pick a specific team composition in order to win the game?

I don't know, but so far I really like it.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 20, 2014, 08:52:34 PM
Free trial this weekend. (http://trial.strife.com/)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 21, 2014, 09:13:52 AM
Feh, that's tempting..... but I'll pass on it myself for now.

Cant stand "beta event weekends" and similar things.  I just avoid them like the plague.  Tend to be a glitchy lagsplosion of laggy lag. Among other problems.  And I aint good with time limits and scheduling.

I'll just continue to wait for more info and a proper, full beta account.

Definitely feel free to continue to explain stuff about the game as you play further into it though.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Riabi on February 21, 2014, 09:27:14 AM
Feh, that's tempting..... but I'll pass on it myself for now.

Cant stand "beta event weekends" and similar things.  I just avoid them like the plague.  Tend to be a glitchy lagsplosion of laggy lag. Among other problems.  And I aint good with time limits and scheduling.

I'll just continue to wait for more info and a proper, full beta account.

Definitely feel free to continue to explain stuff about the game as you play further into it though.

Same here... 100%.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 21, 2014, 10:00:36 AM
A stress-test weekend is kind of a double-edged sword for the players, yea.  On the one hand you get to play a game you're (probably) pretty excited about.  On the other hand you're walking into a situation where a complete lag-death-of-the-universe would constitute a successful outcome for the developer (as that's a useful test result).
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 21, 2014, 10:18:13 AM
Haha, you guys look at it from an entirely different perspective than I do, which is more akin to: All the noobs are coming, ANNIHILATE!

In all seriousness, after winning my first 4 MM games, things are starting to get a bit more difficult. There is a small bit of lag (so far) on their MM servers, but it's something I'm sure they'll fix relatively soon. They've been running the HoN servers for 3+ years now, so they've got quit a bit of experience with this.

Oh by the way, there's now a popular DotA tournament running Captain's Draft mode instead of the usual Captain's Pick mode. In other words, players have to pick from a randomly selected pool of 24 heroes instead of the default 90 something in the game.

As you can imagine, this makes for intense and epic games where unusual and funny combinations are being used, breaking the monotony of the established metagame.

You can watch Na'Vi using Pudge (http://www.dotacinema.com/vods/7113#game1) in the second set of games in the tournament. HILARIOUS fun.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 21, 2014, 02:12:27 PM
Wingflier I checked your stats today and you have a 55% win ratio in Conquest, which is  exactly what the matchmaking tries to achieve. I don't think it's that bad For you ;)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 21, 2014, 02:15:23 PM
Wingflier I checked your stats today and you have a 55% win ratio in Conquest, which is  exactly what the matchmaking tries to achieve. I don't think it's that bad For you ;)
The question is whether it achieves that by giving reasonably-evenly-matched battles, or by giving freebies and "where did you dig up teammates this bad?" in roughly equal proportion? ;)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 21, 2014, 02:44:00 PM
Wingflier I checked your stats today and you have a 55% win ratio in Conquest, which is  exactly what the matchmaking tries to achieve. I don't think it's that bad For you ;)
Uh, doing it in such a way that the first 20 matches were a wash for my team, then the next 20 matches were impossible to win is not exactly what I would call good matchmaking.

There have been some "even" matches (as in both teams were relatively even), but in most cases it's been a landslide one way or another. When you're getting put against people that are level 10 with a certain character and with 30 mastered gods, with people on your team that haven't even mastered a single person (happens regularly), then I've gotta say that's not a very good way of achieving balance. It may be a good way of achieving a specific ratio, but not balance.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 21, 2014, 07:34:54 PM
THAT, however, I very much agree with :P


The trueskill system is odd, to be honest. I'm not sure it's the best way to go. The idea is that it should try to match everyone against people of roughly equal skill as often as possible, and then every few matches, it'll match you up against someone who is WAY worse than you, or WAY better than you, just to see if it needs to adjust anything.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 21, 2014, 07:40:52 PM
I still think it's going for a certain ratio of rage and annoyance, and then fitting victory ratios into that ;)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 22, 2014, 01:17:57 AM
Haha, you guys look at it from an entirely different perspective than I do, which is more akin to: All the noobs are coming, ANNIHILATE!

In all seriousness, after winning my first 4 MM games, things are starting to get a bit more difficult. There is a small bit of lag (so far) on their MM servers, but it's something I'm sure they'll fix relatively soon. They've been running the HoN servers for 3+ years now, so they've got quit a bit of experience with this.

Oh by the way, there's now a popular DotA tournament running Captain's Draft mode instead of the usual Captain's Pick mode. In other words, players have to pick from a randomly selected pool of 24 heroes instead of the default 90 something in the game.

As you can imagine, this makes for intense and epic games where unusual and funny combinations are being used, breaking the monotony of the established metagame.

You can watch Na'Vi using Pudge (http://www.dotacinema.com/vods/7113#game1) in the second set of games in the tournament. HILARIOUS fun.

Eh, still tempting, but still too iffy for me, even if the servers havent become black holes of lag yet.  I've just done WAY too many betas of all sorts and seen so very many of the possible problems that can suddenly appear to want to do it.


I still think it's going for a certain ratio of rage and annoyance, and then fitting victory ratios into that ;)

I swear it feels like they ALL do that.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 22, 2014, 02:08:02 AM
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/try-the-moba-that-s-taking-on-league-of-legends-and-dota-2-free-next-weekend/1100-6417868/

Good article explaining S2's goals with Strife, and how it differs from some of the other common MOBAs. Also there's a link in there that talks about how they plan to deal with toxicity.

I think they've already done a pretty good job with it.

1. No battling over hero picks or roles (these have been removed by the MM system)
2. No battling over last hits
3. You can't see your teammates' deaths until the game is over
4. You can't chat with the enemy team until the game is over
5. Nobody is expected to buy wards or "support"

I think the Karma system is still in development so we'll see how that goes.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 22, 2014, 06:29:00 AM
1. No battling over hero picks or roles (these have been removed by the MM system)
2. No battling over last hits

Even if I hadnt already seen the other stuff about it, these two bits probably woulda won me over.  Both of these things are major reasons why I dont play Dota all that often.... it just has WAY too much trouble with both for my extremely non-existent patience level.  LoL isnt AS bad about it, but it's still bloody annoying as hell.

Quote
3. You can't see your teammates' deaths until the game is over

This one I kinda dont get.  Now, I understand it from the point of view related to the toxicity issue, but wont this cause some problems of it's own?  If you cant see teammate deaths, how are you to know if you're behind?  If you can still see an overall score instead of individual death listings, wont that still cause rage in many cases?  It's hardly a bad idea, but just seems a bit odd to me.

Quote
4. You can't chat with the enemy team until the game is over

.....why didn't the others think of this?

Quote
5. Nobody is expected to buy wards or "support"

Feh.  I actually like doing the support role.  Rescuing important teammates from certain doom at the last second, possibly then causing enemy deaths as a result, is satisfying as heck.   Stuff like that.   Though, the not-buying-wards bit is a very good thing;  Dawngate is currently the only one I know of that does away with that as well.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 22, 2014, 07:09:15 AM
Quote
This one I kinda dont get.  Now, I understand it from the point of view related to the toxicity issue, but wont this cause some problems of it's own?  If you cant see teammate deaths, how are you to know if you're behind?  If you can still see an overall score instead of individual death listings, wont that still cause rage in many cases?  It's hardly a bad idea, but just seems a bit odd to me.
You need to understand the mind and attitude of an elitist. I should know. I often check the scores when we're losing horribly, and when I see those teammates that are 0-7 or 0-15, I start to get really angry, especially if I'm doing really well.

I typically won't say anything anymore, but for the longest time I would blame them and tell them to stop dying, or tell them to uninstall the game. I'm not the only one either, seeing someone who is doing horribly bad can cause many players to become negative or toxic towards them. Moonshine Fox has seen me doing this in Smite. I didn't say anything, but I was certainly aware of the feeders on my team.

Quote
Feh.  I actually like doing the support role.  Rescuing important teammates from certain doom at the last second, possibly then causing enemy deaths as a result, is satisfying as heck.   Stuff like that.   Though, the not-buying-wards bit is a very good thing;  Dawngate is currently the only one I know of that does away with that as well.
You can still play a support role, it's just not expected of you. There are heroes and items that heal or provide shields/buffs/armor, etc. However, typically when we think of "support", we think of somebody who never has any money, who is buying tons of wards, and who has much less impact on the game in terms of pure fighting power than the other players. This tradition has been removed I think.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on February 22, 2014, 01:01:36 PM
You need to understand the mind and attitude of an elitist. I should know. I often check the scores when we're losing horribly, and when I see those teammates that are 0-7 or 0-15, I start to get really angry, especially if I'm doing really well.

 ::)

Quote from: Wingflier
If you were looking for a casual experience where you weren't challenged at all, you probably wouldn't be playing a MOBA in the first place.

[/size]
Quote from: Cyborg
Isn't that awfully elitist? I have known more than a few people who are not particularly good at these games who just want to play.

[/size]
Quote from: Wingflier
It's not elitist. I said nothing about being good at the game. I don't know where you got that from.


 :D
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 22, 2014, 01:02:45 PM
Do we really need to go down that roadlane again? ;)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on February 22, 2014, 01:31:42 PM
Do we really need to go down that roadlane again? ;)


Yes, because my contribution to this thread is that these games are filled with elitist, toxic behavior that generally make my experience less enjoyable. I routinely turn off chat because of it. In a game where you are supposed to be a team and work together, mistakes are severely punished in a psychological wargame by the people on your own squad. It's filthy and disgusting human behavior. And then there are threads, including part of this one, where you discuss the meta.


I'm that guy that is blissfully unaware of whatever meta you feel I should be playing. Firstly, let's all acknowledge that the moba community is full of toxic, spoiled brats that are only marginally capable of acceptable socialization. The majority of my chat screen is filled with complaints, blaming, finger-pointing, and anything possible to absolve oneself of any responsibility for their own gameplay. These same internet miscreants also firmly believe they are experts at understanding meta. And they "understand" it not because they have any intellectual capabilities worthy of note or actual original analysis, but because they saw a stream, read a blog, or observed it from countless matches of people copying each other. It's little more than copycats playing at being a pro.

I'm here to tell you it's all bull-shitake mushrooms.

Now if the acceptable meta is a solo top, solo middle, support and carry down bottom, and one jungle, I have to say I disagree. That set up requires a few things. It requires having the right combination of champions, an acceptable group leadership structure capable of delegating roles (and people who will accept them), and the kind of cooperation that needs voice chat. You never get those things in random games. You never do. So there's no way that meta is going to work.

Expanded, let's take the "acceptable group leadership structure." How many everyday players in this game are capable of even addressing each other like human beings, much less being a leader? I can't accept orders from a 14-year-old who is only trying to boost his self-esteem by attempting to making himself look good via the scoreboard and making fun of everyone else, even if they are "supporting." And woe be unto you if you are the support, usually the last pick because nobody wants to get no gold, pass off every champion kill, and generally try your best to enable your lane partner (who is probably going to blame you anyway if they die).

Going into every game, almost all of them have complaining before the game even starts. Some of them are premade teams, who expect you to be their servant and take their abuse as they play with their friends. Typical mob mentality ostracization behavior. There is complaining all game long, especially if they are losing. How are we going to have a pro league meta with this kind of behavior? I guarantee you if pro teams treated their members like garbage, it wouldn't work, either. These are the same jackholes that think they are awesome at this game, and they want to be the carry, but all they do is auto attack and act mystified if you last hit. The same guys who relentlessly pat themselves on the back and cry about everyone else, while voluntarily playing a team game.

And there's the separation from reality. Voluntarily playing a team game and abusing your own teammates at the same time. Voluntarily playing a team game and extolling your own performance and putting down everyone else's. If you really want to show how awesome you are as a player, you would be better off playing starcraft or something. I firmly believe that this game encourages protecting your own ego when you suck (blame it on the team) and elevating your own self image when you win (I carried!).

So here is my meta, which I offer as a solution and a throwback to the original League of Legends game when it first came out. Up to two people per lane, and do your best to last hit. This is going to take skill and timing with your character' s attack speed. Try to help each other survive or launch an offensive of your own, but when you die, accept responsibility. No blaming. No crying. In my meta, there may or may not be a jungle. I posit that if everyone could contribute a positive score, you would have a high chance of winning the game. I would also rather have another fully loaded carry in a long game than a support.

I routinely score very well (kills and assists, low death scores if I even die at all), kill plenty of towers, and dominate my share of games. I don't pay too much attention to the chat. I pick a character that I feel is going to be fun to play, and I go wherever I want. And I play to the best of my ability, I don't blame others, and I don't have meltdowns in the chat. Oftentimes I will just turn off chat because all it is, is toxic. The next troll you see who is actually very good at this game but not marching to the beat of your random drum, that's me!

Pro teams are not the same as random teams. Random matchmaking (and didn't you just bemoan public matchmaking?) is not the same as pro league matchmaking. By definition, the meta has to change.
 
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 22, 2014, 01:41:49 PM
It's filthy and disgusting human behavior.
I fully agree.  The concept of a game where I could genuinely give my best, and possibly even do fairly well, yet still be subject to personal abuse from my own team is... well, that's why I don't play MOBAs with anyone I don't know.

I don't think a change in the meta would really alter that situation.  It would take a change in the attitudes of the people, which doesn't really happen from rule changes (be they formal rules, or informal ones).

Though I guess an extension of the "leavers get stuck with leavers" model some games take could be extended to "abusers get stuck with abusers" and have some impact.  But it's harder to objectively categorize the latter in an automated fashion.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 22, 2014, 01:54:16 PM

Quote
4. You can't chat with the enemy team until the game is over

.....why didn't the others think of this?


Smite? You can't talk to the other team unless you use whispers directly to someone and they can easily block you if necessary.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 22, 2014, 02:13:10 PM
I'm not going to respond to Cyborg because it feels like he's just attempting to start an argument with me.

What I will reiterate is that any time hardcore competition is involved, people's aggressive sides tend to come out. They *want* to win. This is pure Darwinian Evolution at work. Nobody is really immune to it, there are certain people who have learned to harness or control it better than others. You will not find a game as intellectually competitive as these MOBAs on the market, and if you do, I'll give you a medal. I don't think that this makes the MOBA community full of "toxic spoiled brats incapable of socialization".

I fully support Strife's attempt to make the community less toxic by removing vast elements of the game which cause people to become angry, or at least trigger that.

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on February 22, 2014, 03:07:05 PM

Quote
4. You can't chat with the enemy team until the game is over

.....why didn't the others think of this?


Smite? You can't talk to the other team unless you use whispers directly to someone and they can easily block you if necessary.

In League of Legends there is a tab that enables enemy chat. If enabled communication both toward and from the enemy is enabled, off and none occurs at all. Hardly an unique attribute.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 23, 2014, 01:10:12 AM
Do we really need to go down that roadlane again? ;)


Yes, because my contribution to this thread is that these games are filled with elitist, toxic behavior that generally make my experience less enjoyable. I routinely turn off chat because of it. In a game where you are supposed to be a team and work together, mistakes are severely punished in a psychological wargame by the people on your own squad. It's filthy and disgusting human behavior. And then there are threads, including part of this one, where you discuss the meta.


I'm that guy that is blissfully unaware of whatever meta you feel I should be playing. Firstly, let's all acknowledge that the moba community is full of toxic, spoiled brats that are only marginally capable of acceptable socialization. The majority of my chat screen is filled with complaints, blaming, finger-pointing, and anything possible to absolve oneself of any responsibility for their own gameplay. These same internet miscreants also firmly believe they are experts at understanding meta. And they "understand" it not because they have any intellectual capabilities worthy of note or actual original analysis, but because they saw a stream, read a blog, or observed it from countless matches of people copying each other. It's little more than copycats playing at being a pro.

I'm here to tell you it's all bull-shitake mushrooms.

Now if the acceptable meta is a solo top, solo middle, support and carry down bottom, and one jungle, I have to say I disagree. That set up requires a few things. It requires having the right combination of champions, an acceptable group leadership structure capable of delegating roles (and people who will accept them), and the kind of cooperation that needs voice chat. You never get those things in random games. You never do. So there's no way that meta is going to work.

Expanded, let's take the "acceptable group leadership structure." How many everyday players in this game are capable of even addressing each other like human beings, much less being a leader? I can't accept orders from a 14-year-old who is only trying to boost his self-esteem by attempting to making himself look good via the scoreboard and making fun of everyone else, even if they are "supporting." And woe be unto you if you are the support, usually the last pick because nobody wants to get no gold, pass off every champion kill, and generally try your best to enable your lane partner (who is probably going to blame you anyway if they die).

Going into every game, almost all of them have complaining before the game even starts. Some of them are premade teams, who expect you to be their servant and take their abuse as they play with their friends. Typical mob mentality ostracization behavior. There is complaining all game long, especially if they are losing. How are we going to have a pro league meta with this kind of behavior? I guarantee you if pro teams treated their members like garbage, it wouldn't work, either. These are the same jackholes that think they are awesome at this game, and they want to be the carry, but all they do is auto attack and act mystified if you last hit. The same guys who relentlessly pat themselves on the back and cry about everyone else, while voluntarily playing a team game.

And there's the separation from reality. Voluntarily playing a team game and abusing your own teammates at the same time. Voluntarily playing a team game and extolling your own performance and putting down everyone else's. If you really want to show how awesome you are as a player, you would be better off playing starcraft or something. I firmly believe that this game encourages protecting your own ego when you suck (blame it on the team) and elevating your own self image when you win (I carried!).

So here is my meta, which I offer as a solution and a throwback to the original League of Legends game when it first came out. Up to two people per lane, and do your best to last hit. This is going to take skill and timing with your character' s attack speed. Try to help each other survive or launch an offensive of your own, but when you die, accept responsibility. No blaming. No crying. In my meta, there may or may not be a jungle. I posit that if everyone could contribute a positive score, you would have a high chance of winning the game. I would also rather have another fully loaded carry in a long game than a support.

I routinely score very well (kills and assists, low death scores if I even die at all), kill plenty of towers, and dominate my share of games. I don't pay too much attention to the chat. I pick a character that I feel is going to be fun to play, and I go wherever I want. And I play to the best of my ability, I don't blame others, and I don't have meltdowns in the chat. Oftentimes I will just turn off chat because all it is, is toxic. The next troll you see who is actually very good at this game but not marching to the beat of your random drum, that's me!

Pro teams are not the same as random teams. Random matchmaking (and didn't you just bemoan public matchmaking?) is not the same as pro league matchmaking. By definition, the meta has to change.


Ahhhhh, yes, I can agree with literally all of this.  You hit the nail on the head, methinks.

Heck, when I AM playing a role I'm familiar with (which for now is mostly support, or some sort of tank to a lesser degree), even as a still-relatively-new player to this genre, I dont just do what others on the team think I should be doing.  I do whatever I bloody well feel like, which basically amounts to "whatever seems like a good idea at the time". Considering my absurd reaction speed... which lends itself well to this idea, since I have no trouble adapting to quickly changing situations.... and also my general spacey nature.... which does NOT help one bit when it comes to overall tactics, as I'll get a bit lost on that really easily.... this is by far the best approach for me to take.   It fits MY playstyle and strengths/weaknesses, and it's the reason why I'll often end a match with like 25 assists, a couple kills, and no deaths. 

I know the meta can be important, but it's perceived importance is drastically exaggerated in most cases.  This is something I learned from fighting games.... players in that genre are pretty much all copycats.  Being a copycat IS the meta.  They watch the highest ranked pros from Japan, and they take their exact combos, their exact strategies, and use them as their own.  And they follow the damn "tier" list, a ranking of how good each character is perceived to be.  Me though?  Hahaha NO.  I dont give a crap what the guys in Japan are doing.  I'll come up with my own combos, and to heck with anyone that thinks that idea is stupid.  And the only strategy I've ever needed is "CHAAAAAARGE!!!".  And I'll often specifically choose whichever character is at the bottom of the tier list just to make a point.  And even against those labeled as pros, I'm usually the one doing most of the winning.  "Meta" indeed, feh.  Those using the meta strictly are actually the easiest to beat, because I know what they're gonna do.

And all of that can indeed apply to the moba genre.  If I'm on a team with someone that isnt following the meta whatsoever, well..... who the heck am I to judge them?  Particularly if they're not following it but STILL  are getting like 25 zillion kills and becoming super-fed.  But of course there are endless legions of players who WILL judge.  Who WILL try to say "No, you idiot, you need to do THIS!   Because you're not doing THIS, we're losing!  CLEARLY it's not because I just died 60 times in a row!  59 of which were your fault, by the way! UNINSTALL, 4 U R TEH UBER SUXXORZ!!!11one".  And really, just because someone is saying "no, do this" doesnt mean they're RIGHT.  They may, in fact, be dead wrong, which is ANOTHER reason to just ignore such things.  I'll learn on my own, thanks, by reading guides, watching videos, and coming to my own conclusions.  NONE of them ever think of this fact though.  They tend to have the view that because they are the Great and Mighty [insert name here], they MUST be right, because how could it possibly be otherwise?  It's everyone ELSE that's wrong.  'Tis blasphemy to think otherwise!

And then the derp begins.  The yelling and the blasted name calling.  Never realizing even once that by doing this, and by giving in to the anger, they're dragging their entire team downwards into the pit of failure and sadness, inching ever closer to a loss.   Which, of course, isnt their fault.  They had to put that n00b teammate in their place.  Gotta make sure they KNOW how much they suck.  It's IMPORTANT.  Exasperated sarcastic sigh.

I dont usually turn the chat entirely OFF, but many times while playing one of these, I sorta get into a frame of mind that causes me to literally forget that it's there, and not notice.  And why wouldnt I?  It's very rare that anyone there has something important and useful to say.  And their suggestions and orders to teammates.... specifically, suggestions and orders that are following their perception of the meta.... may actually get everyone ganked straight to Mars.  Happens pretty often, that one.

If the damn meta should become something less bloody irritating, and less annoyingly strict, THEN, and only then, might I start paying some attention to it, and at the very least getting some ideas from it, despite not outright following it.  But for now.... it's basically a rage farm.  A farm where the cows smell even worse than usual, while leaping around kicking each other randomly while shrieking "MOOOOO!!!!! F#%& YOU!!!!". 

I'll stay away from such a place, thanks.

EDIT:  Omigod I've had way too much caffiene.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on February 23, 2014, 10:56:32 AM
But for now.... it's basically a rage farm.  A farm where the cows smell even worse than usual, while leaping around kicking each other randomly while shrieking "MOOOOO!!!!! F#%& YOU!!!!". 


So you play Alistar?  :D  And the rest of your post, qft.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 23, 2014, 12:05:21 PM
So that's the cow level.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Billick on February 24, 2014, 03:27:25 PM
I'm not going to respond to Cyborg because it feels like he's just attempting to start an argument with me.

What I will reiterate is that any time hardcore competition is involved, people's aggressive sides tend to come out. They *want* to win. This is pure Darwinian Evolution at work. Nobody is really immune to it, there are certain people who have learned to harness or control it better than others. You will not find a game as intellectually competitive as these MOBAs on the market, and if you do, I'll give you a medal. I don't think that this makes the MOBA community full of "toxic spoiled brats incapable of socialization".

I fully support Strife's attempt to make the community less toxic by removing vast elements of the game which cause people to become angry, or at least trigger that.

You can be competitive and still act like a decent human being.  And I strongly disagree that arranged team games are "hardcore competition".  It's pickup flag football.  If you're playing in the International, that's another thing altogether, but I doubt very many people playing in that treat their teammates like crap.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 24, 2014, 03:33:06 PM
It's pickup flag football.
If trash talking in DotA had remotely the same potential physical consequences as trash talking in flag football, the difference would be night and day.

Not that you don't see trash talking in flag football, but it's of a different order of magnitude.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 24, 2014, 05:38:22 PM
I'm not going to respond to Cyborg because it feels like he's just attempting to start an argument with me.

What I will reiterate is that any time hardcore competition is involved, people's aggressive sides tend to come out. They *want* to win. This is pure Darwinian Evolution at work. Nobody is really immune to it, there are certain people who have learned to harness or control it better than others. You will not find a game as intellectually competitive as these MOBAs on the market, and if you do, I'll give you a medal. I don't think that this makes the MOBA community full of "toxic spoiled brats incapable of socialization".

I fully support Strife's attempt to make the community less toxic by removing vast elements of the game which cause people to become angry, or at least trigger that.

You can be competitive and still act like a decent human being.  And I strongly disagree that arranged team games are "hardcore competition".  It's pickup flag football.  If you're playing in the International, that's another thing altogether, but I doubt very many people playing in that treat their teammates like crap.
I think if you had paid attention to some of the drama that happens to these professional MOBA teams, you may think otherwise. There is a lot of competition, mistreatment, and abuse that goes on behind the scenes, especially if somebody is under performing.

However, in terms of non-professional games, I think that unfortunately, you are imposing your own opinion or worldview onto the situation. Just because *YOU* think that it's a bunch of nerdy virgins playing a silly video game (obviously I'm being a bit dramatic), doesn't mean that within their minds, it's not the intellectual equivalent to the super bowl. Nobody can really argue that this genre has that effect on people. People REALLY want to win, at all costs. There's probably a million theories as to why, but regardless, they take it a lot more seriously than you seem to give them credit for.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on February 24, 2014, 07:23:44 PM
Just because *YOU* think that it's a bunch of nerdy virgins playing a silly video game


Straw man alert, straw man alert!


The point is, regardless of how much the game means to you, flying off the handle and abusing people is inappropriate and unwelcome. There is no justification in saying that's just natural human behavior. There's a lot of natural human behavior out there that is equally inappropriate. You even go on to say that it's "Darwinian" to be a jackhole, as if being competitive can justify being a jerk. I disagree. You can be competitive and be a good sport. You can be competitive and be positive with your teammates.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Billick on February 24, 2014, 08:04:16 PM
Oh neat!  I have a "worldview" now! :o


The point is, regardless of how much the game means to you, flying off the handle and abusing people is inappropriate and unwelcome. There is no justification in saying that's just natural human behavior. There's a lot of natural human behavior out there that is equally inappropriate. You even go on to say that it's "Darwinian" to be a jackhole, as if being competitive can justify being a jerk. I disagree. You can be competitive and be a good sport. You can be competitive and be positive with your teammates.
This pretty much sums it up so I won't add anything.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 24, 2014, 08:42:24 PM
Just because *YOU* think that it's a bunch of nerdy virgins playing a silly video game


Straw man alert, straw man alert!


The point is, regardless of how much the game means to you, flying off the handle and abusing people is inappropriate and unwelcome. There is no justification in saying that's just natural human behavior. There's a lot of natural human behavior out there that is equally inappropriate. You even go on to say that it's "Darwinian" to be a jackhole, as if being competitive can justify being a jerk. I disagree. You can be competitive and be a good sport. You can be competitive and be positive with your teammates.


Aye, this.   Definitely agreed.


That being said though, Wingflier is completely right about this one.  I'm familiar with competition of this sort (not just in Dota and whatnot) and....yeah.  Being on a team can often be WORSE than the crap you get normally.  It's the sort of crap that can end friendships or knock you into a horrible spiral of depression.  It happens, probably frequently.  Even in something like the International.  heck, I'd actually expect it to be worse than the norm at something like that.... all that money on the line!   The effect likely multiplies.

In many ways it's kinda sad and pathetic that it happens at all, but it still does happen.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 25, 2014, 03:15:27 AM
Just because *YOU* think that it's a bunch of nerdy virgins playing a silly video game


Straw man alert, straw man alert!


The point is, regardless of how much the game means to you, flying off the handle and abusing people is inappropriate and unwelcome. There is no justification in saying that's just natural human behavior. There's a lot of natural human behavior out there that is equally inappropriate. You even go on to say that it's "Darwinian" to be a jackhole, as if being competitive can justify being a jerk. I disagree. You can be competitive and be a good sport. You can be competitive and be positive with your teammates.
As I said, that point was just being dramatic.

I completely agree, just because it's in our natures to be competitive, it doesn't justify the kind of behavior often seen in these situations. However, you're creating a straw man argument when you say that most the people who play these games are...let me find it, "toxic, spoiled brats marginally capable of accepted socialization". Most of these are just normal people put into an extremely high-tense competitive situation.

Once again, for the third time, I completely support Strife's attempts to make this game less toxic. I also completely agree that it's a problem. I just think that if you want to pigeonhole tens of millions of people into your own little dehumanizing box just to help you sleep at night, you're sadly mistaken.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 25, 2014, 03:37:25 AM
Just because *YOU* think that it's a bunch of nerdy virgins playing a silly video game


Straw man alert, straw man alert!


The point is, regardless of how much the game means to you, flying off the handle and abusing people is inappropriate and unwelcome. There is no justification in saying that's just natural human behavior. There's a lot of natural human behavior out there that is equally inappropriate. You even go on to say that it's "Darwinian" to be a jackhole, as if being competitive can justify being a jerk. I disagree. You can be competitive and be a good sport. You can be competitive and be positive with your teammates.
As I said, that point was just being dramatic.

I completely agree, just because it's in our natures to be competitive, it doesn't justify the kind of behavior often seen in these situations. However, you're creating a straw man argument when you say that most the people who play these games are...let me find it, "toxic, spoiled brats marginally capable of accepted socialization". Most of these are just normal people put into an extremely high-tense competitive situation.

Totally agreed.   You dont have to be a complete asshat to begin with in order to act this way.  Perfectly reasonable, normally-friendly people can turn into shrieking jerkwads when playing these.  And I dont just mean the mobas.  Any genre can do it.  Heck, like the FPS genre, which among both PC and console gamers is infamous for getting lots of players, including kids, that do nothing but scream f-bombs into their headsets the whole time.

It's not the fault of the genre, the game, or the developers/designers that any of this happens.  It's the simple fault of it being a competetive game, and even moreso, being a team-based competetive game.

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on February 25, 2014, 07:38:40 PM
Just because *YOU* think that it's a bunch of nerdy virgins playing a silly video game


Straw man alert, straw man alert!


The point is, regardless of how much the game means to you, flying off the handle and abusing people is inappropriate and unwelcome. There is no justification in saying that's just natural human behavior. There's a lot of natural human behavior out there that is equally inappropriate. You even go on to say that it's "Darwinian" to be a jackhole, as if being competitive can justify being a jerk. I disagree. You can be competitive and be a good sport. You can be competitive and be positive with your teammates.
As I said, that point was just being dramatic.

I completely agree, just because it's in our natures to be competitive, it doesn't justify the kind of behavior often seen in these situations. However, you're creating a straw man argument when you say that most the people who play these games are...let me find it, "toxic, spoiled brats marginally capable of accepted socialization". Most of these are just normal people put into an extremely high-tense competitive situation.


A straw man tactic is where you assume a different proposition and argue against it, thereby giving the illusion that you have refuted an argument. It's not an opinion, like the one I hold, whereby I posit the community is rife with toxic, spoiled brats. You are saying that most of these people are just reacting to competition, and that they are not toxic individuals.


And we disagree. If a person were to go around acting like a jerk on their favorite game and then claim they're not, in fact, a jerk because they are nice in their everyday dealings, I would say that is just a mask of a part of their true personality. Maybe they are nice in their everyday behavior because that's how they get what they want. They are under some social contract to behave a certain way face-to-face that just doesn't exist online.


Summarized, if you say that they are decent people because part of their personality is decent, and you ignore the part where they are jerks, that is not a wash, for me. You are who you are, and maybe a part of you is something you don't want to see or acknowledge.

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 25, 2014, 10:12:46 PM
Just because *YOU* think that it's a bunch of nerdy virgins playing a silly video game


Straw man alert, straw man alert!


The point is, regardless of how much the game means to you, flying off the handle and abusing people is inappropriate and unwelcome. There is no justification in saying that's just natural human behavior. There's a lot of natural human behavior out there that is equally inappropriate. You even go on to say that it's "Darwinian" to be a jackhole, as if being competitive can justify being a jerk. I disagree. You can be competitive and be a good sport. You can be competitive and be positive with your teammates.
As I said, that point was just being dramatic.

I completely agree, just because it's in our natures to be competitive, it doesn't justify the kind of behavior often seen in these situations. However, you're creating a straw man argument when you say that most the people who play these games are...let me find it, "toxic, spoiled brats marginally capable of accepted socialization". Most of these are just normal people put into an extremely high-tense competitive situation.


A straw man tactic is where you assume a different proposition and argue against it, thereby giving the illusion that you have refuted an argument. It's not an opinion, like the one I hold, whereby I posit the community is rife with toxic, spoiled brats. You are saying that most of these people are just reacting to competition, and that they are not toxic individuals.


And we disagree. If a person were to go around acting like a jerk on their favorite game and then claim they're not, in fact, a jerk because they are nice in their everyday dealings, I would say that is just a mask of a part of their true personality. Maybe they are nice in their everyday behavior because that's how they get what they want. They are under some social contract to behave a certain way face-to-face that just doesn't exist online.


Summarized, if you say that they are decent people because part of their personality is decent, and you ignore the part where they are jerks, that is not a wash, for me. You are who you are, and maybe a part of you is something you don't want to see or acknowledge.


Even that is subjective, though.  Most people can end up acting this way if they get angry enough, which is part of the problem.   Now, if someone goes into one of these and, with no provocation, starts acting like a jerk and insulting people, that's different.   But merely doing it out of sheer anger?  I cant see that as meaning much, other than that the person may need to learn better self-control.  Doesnt mean they're a jerk or a troll. 

Though it DOES mean that maybe also they should step away for a bit, instead of letting it get to them that much....
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 25, 2014, 10:54:30 PM
Just because *YOU* think that it's a bunch of nerdy virgins playing a silly video game


Straw man alert, straw man alert!


The point is, regardless of how much the game means to you, flying off the handle and abusing people is inappropriate and unwelcome. There is no justification in saying that's just natural human behavior. There's a lot of natural human behavior out there that is equally inappropriate. You even go on to say that it's "Darwinian" to be a jackhole, as if being competitive can justify being a jerk. I disagree. You can be competitive and be a good sport. You can be competitive and be positive with your teammates.
As I said, that point was just being dramatic.

I completely agree, just because it's in our natures to be competitive, it doesn't justify the kind of behavior often seen in these situations. However, you're creating a straw man argument when you say that most the people who play these games are...let me find it, "toxic, spoiled brats marginally capable of accepted socialization". Most of these are just normal people put into an extremely high-tense competitive situation.


A straw man tactic is where you assume a different proposition and argue against it, thereby giving the illusion that you have refuted an argument. It's not an opinion, like the one I hold, whereby I posit the community is rife with toxic, spoiled brats. You are saying that most of these people are just reacting to competition, and that they are not toxic individuals.


And we disagree. If a person were to go around acting like a jerk on their favorite game and then claim they're not, in fact, a jerk because they are nice in their everyday dealings, I would say that is just a mask of a part of their true personality. Maybe they are nice in their everyday behavior because that's how they get what they want. They are under some social contract to behave a certain way face-to-face that just doesn't exist online.


Summarized, if you say that they are decent people because part of their personality is decent, and you ignore the part where they are jerks, that is not a wash, for me. You are who you are, and maybe a part of you is something you don't want to see or acknowledge.
Well, I guess according to my understanding your definition, everybody is a jerk, since we all have the POTENTIAL to be jerks, and put into the correct situation, often are.

The only real difference I see between the average MOBA player and the average person is that the MOBA player is putting themselves into that high-stress situation that most people don't experience in their every day lives. If you don't think that this happens all the time in other competitive environments, apparently you've never watched professional football or hockey.

I'll bet you most of these people are completely nice and upstanding citizens in their everyday lives. I just find it so ironic that you consider jerks to be people who, when removed from the average social situation (so like online anonymity), become cruel or nasty to others when, from my experience, you engage in that behavior all the time.


Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on February 25, 2014, 10:57:14 PM
Just because *YOU* think that it's a bunch of nerdy virgins playing a silly video game


Straw man alert, straw man alert!


The point is, regardless of how much the game means to you, flying off the handle and abusing people is inappropriate and unwelcome. There is no justification in saying that's just natural human behavior. There's a lot of natural human behavior out there that is equally inappropriate. You even go on to say that it's "Darwinian" to be a jackhole, as if being competitive can justify being a jerk. I disagree. You can be competitive and be a good sport. You can be competitive and be positive with your teammates.
As I said, that point was just being dramatic.

I completely agree, just because it's in our natures to be competitive, it doesn't justify the kind of behavior often seen in these situations. However, you're creating a straw man argument when you say that most the people who play these games are...let me find it, "toxic, spoiled brats marginally capable of accepted socialization". Most of these are just normal people put into an extremely high-tense competitive situation.


A straw man tactic is where you assume a different proposition and argue against it, thereby giving the illusion that you have refuted an argument. It's not an opinion, like the one I hold, whereby I posit the community is rife with toxic, spoiled brats. You are saying that most of these people are just reacting to competition, and that they are not toxic individuals.


And we disagree. If a person were to go around acting like a jerk on their favorite game and then claim they're not, in fact, a jerk because they are nice in their everyday dealings, I would say that is just a mask of a part of their true personality. Maybe they are nice in their everyday behavior because that's how they get what they want. They are under some social contract to behave a certain way face-to-face that just doesn't exist online.


Summarized, if you say that they are decent people because part of their personality is decent, and you ignore the part where they are jerks, that is not a wash, for me. You are who you are, and maybe a part of you is something you don't want to see or acknowledge.


Even that is subjective, though.  Most people can end up acting this way if they get angry enough, which is part of the problem.   Now, if someone goes into one of these and, with no provocation, starts acting like a jerk and insulting people, that's different.   But merely doing it out of sheer anger?  I cant see that as meaning much, other than that the person may need to learn better self-control.  Doesnt mean they're a jerk or a troll. 

Though it DOES mean that maybe also they should step away for a bit, instead of letting it get to them that much....


I'm not sure you mean. Even if they're angry, I think you have to look at what they're angry about. A videogame is not a good reason to start pulling out racial epithets, homophobic comments, and an all-out psychological war on your own team. I'm sure we all know the kind of rage I am talking about. I don't see how this kind of a game can provide that kind of... excuse... for the behavior that I'm describing.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on February 25, 2014, 11:04:12 PM
I'll bet you most of these people are completely nice and upstanding citizens in their everyday lives. I just find it so ironic that you consider jerks to be people who, when removed from the average social situation (so like online anonymity), become cruel or nasty to others when, from my experience, you engage in that behavior all the time.


Actually, I have encountered that precise social situation before, and I jump right in. Whether or not I'm on a forum doesn't change who I am. I consider crazy talk to be a sort of virus, where the very prevalence of it fuels its own legitimacy. If you don't challenge it at the root, if you don't challenge it when it comes out, it just allows the cancer. Take religion. If ReligionX was only believed by one person versus believed by 1 million persons, doesn't that change the legitimacy? Anyway, you bounced back, no need to hold a grudge.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 26, 2014, 12:08:14 AM
I'll bet you most of these people are completely nice and upstanding citizens in their everyday lives. I just find it so ironic that you consider jerks to be people who, when removed from the average social situation (so like online anonymity), become cruel or nasty to others when, from my experience, you engage in that behavior all the time.


Actually, I have encountered that precise social situation before, and I jump right in. Whether or not I'm on a forum doesn't change who I am. I consider crazy talk to be a sort of virus, where the very prevalence of it fuels its own legitimacy. If you don't challenge it at the root, if you don't challenge it when it comes out, it just allows the cancer. Take religion. If ReligionX was only believed by one person versus believed by 1 million persons, doesn't that change the legitimacy? Anyway, you bounced back, no need to hold a grudge.
I don't have a grudge, I'm just a little fascinated by your explanation of when it's okay to be cruel and nasty to others.

So it's not okay to do in a super competitive environment, but it's okay to be ruthless when discussing religion or conspiracy theories? I personally agree with you that most religions are toxic and harmful to society, but even in that case, I engage the belief, not the person. I created my own secular club at my local University which is openly critical of religion, and we seek discussions, panels, and debates with the religious whenever possible. However, we at least try to make a distinction between the belief and the believer.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 26, 2014, 01:47:36 AM
I'm not sure you mean. Even if they're angry, I think you have to look at what they're angry about. A videogame is not a good reason to start pulling out racial epithets, homophobic comments, and an all-out psychological war on your own team. I'm sure we all know the kind of rage I am talking about. I don't see how this kind of a game can provide that kind of... excuse... for the behavior that I'm describing.

Ah, but anything can cause anger.... videogames are merely one out of a bazillion examples.  It doesnt have to be something "deep" or truly important to cause rage.  Heck, my own mood is mostly tied to the weather.  It gets bad, and my mood becomes rather dark.  The worse it is, the more irritable I get.

And anger does not define someone's personality (unless they take it WAY too far).  I'm mostly a super-polite individual myself...  I dont freak out at people in-game, I dont freak out at people IRL ever, you'll never catch me being the one that yells at supermarket workers or whatever because of slight mistakes.  Instead, I'm the one that tries to be helpful and make THEIR day easier.

Yet even so, in an enraged state, I tend to go berserk, and will start randomly smashing things.  The only upside to this is that I will only throw/damage/break things that I own, I dont mess with anyone else's stuff.  It happens though regardless.  This combined with yelling and general shrieking.  And I can be set off by basically anything, particularly if I'm in a dark mood to begin with, as I've been all winter.

Does this change the fact that I'm polite and caring most of the time?  No, it does not.  And I think the same is true for most people.  I see friends do this sometimes.... change from someone friendly and kind, to someone mean who swears like a sailor, if they should get angered.  And in those cases it IS often in relation to gaming.   I notice that gamers as a whole tend to be an easily agitated group.


The reason though why I say that team-based games tend to cause it more often is simple.   In a single-player game, or a multiplayer game that is one-on-one, the player is fully in control of their side of things.  Whatever happens is a direct reflection on THEIR skill level, going up against whatever challenge is in front of them.  If a mistake is made?  It's THEIR mistake, and they can rectify it by increasing their skill.  And that skill can be relied on in future games, increasing their chances of winning.   But in a team game?  It doesnt work this way.  Your own personal skill level wont affect the whole game, but only a small percentage of it in most cases.  You can be a bloody amazing player, but if the rest of your team simply doesnt hold up, you will lose anyway.  And this frustrates people, as things outside of their control tends to.  It can be dramatically more irritating than any singleplayer or one-on-one situation, because you simply cant DO anything about it directly, and your own skill level sometimes simply stops mattering when this is happening.   Any team game can bring this on.  So the player begins yelling at them, insulting them, as their anger grows, because they lack any other way to deal with it, and cant simply vent it too easily.  Their teammates become even more convenient targets when they're seen as the core reason for overall failure.


Of course, none of this excuses things like racial epithets and homophobic comments.  Those sorts of things rather are a sign of a jackass.   Yet even still, that may not always be the case.  An angry individual sorta loses common sense, and when not thinking clearly they may do things that normally they would never, ever do (and often will regret later).  That's just what anger can do to someone.


Hopefully this post made sense, I've been kinda spaced out all day (more than usual, that is), so it might not.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Riabi on February 26, 2014, 07:34:51 AM
Wow, this thread has gotten REALLY off topic. I mean I know it's Arcen, but....

Anyway, any news on Strife?

Anyone looking forward to Heroes of the Storm?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 26, 2014, 10:46:16 AM
Wow, this thread has gotten REALLY off topic. I mean I know it's Arcen, but....

Anyway, any news on Strife?

Anyone looking forward to Heroes of the Storm?

If it didn't randomly launch off topic a few times, I'd be worried that I had somehow found some fake version of the site  ;D


Strife, hmm, I got to see some of it over the weekend, a Twitch streamer that I follow did a bunch with it, though he stuck mostly to players-VS-AI matches (probably for good reason).  The game as a whole looks *alot* like LoL in terms of how things work, but.... that only says so much, because damn near every moba (except Smite) tends to look like that to me.  Ya really have to dive into these properly to see what really makes them stand out, and I just cant test this one out yet.  So mostly Dawngate for me for now, though I did just patch up Smite earlier, after my previous patch attempt apparantly got corrupted, because computers.  At least the damn connection is finally repaired.

Heroes of the Storm I'd looooooove to try out, as it's the one that looks really genuinely different even just viewing it while knowing hardly anything about it.   They seem to really be going in a different direction with that one.   Aint heard much of anything related to a beta with that one, aside from there being a vague signup thing on the Battle.Net site.  I'm expecting it to be like Hearthstone where I dont get to try it for quite awhile.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 26, 2014, 03:57:49 PM
Wow, this thread has gotten REALLY off topic. I mean I know it's Arcen, but....

Anyway, any news on Strife?

Anyone looking forward to Heroes of the Storm?

If it didn't randomly launch off topic a few times, I'd be worried that I had somehow found some fake version of the site  ;D


Strife, hmm, I got to see some of it over the weekend, a Twitch streamer that I follow did a bunch with it, though he stuck mostly to players-VS-AI matches (probably for good reason).  The game as a whole looks *alot* like LoL in terms of how things work, but.... that only says so much, because damn near every moba (except Smite) tends to look like that to me.  Ya really have to dive into these properly to see what really makes them stand out, and I just cant test this one out yet.  So mostly Dawngate for me for now, though I did just patch up Smite earlier, after my previous patch attempt apparantly got corrupted, because computers.  At least the damn connection is finally repaired.

Heroes of the Storm I'd looooooove to try out, as it's the one that looks really genuinely different even just viewing it while knowing hardly anything about it.   They seem to really be going in a different direction with that one.   Aint heard much of anything related to a beta with that one, aside from there being a vague signup thing on the Battle.Net site.  I'm expecting it to be like Hearthstone where I dont get to try it for quite awhile.
That's kind of ironic, because of all the MOBAs I've played, Smite is probably the most like LoL (haven't played Dawngate).

Here are some striking similarities:

-Simple design
-Pre-defined hero roles and lanes
-Jungle buffs
-The hero rotation and "grind-to-play" monetary system
-Summoner Spells
-Very few active items
-Inhibitor/Phoenix Respawns
-Dragon/Rosh almost exactly the same
-Jungler ganks the lanes
-AP Mid
-Carry + support one lane, bruiser in the other
-Wards/Sentry wards
-Almost the exact same AP/AD ratio system

In fact the only two major differences I can find between Smite and LoL is that Smite is in "third person" and that last hits aren't necessary for gold. Granted, these are fairly big differences, but nowhere near the differences between DotA/Strife and LoL.

Strife for example:

1. Gold shared in the lane
2. Jungle buffs completely removed
3. No pre-defined roles
4. No pre-defined lane setups
5. Jungler not required
6. Out-of-combat regen
7. Personal invincible courier
8. "Pet" system
9. All content unlocked at the beginning (no grind to play)
10. No wards
11. Addition of the vision towers
12. Roshan/Nashor equivalent gives you a giant siege monster
13. Many active items
14. Inhibitor doesn't respawn (pretty important)
15. The AD/AP aspect has been completely removed/redone

I'm also excited to see what Heroes of the Storm (I just noticed that it has the same initials as Heart of the Swarm, I wonder if that was coincidence) has to offer.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on February 26, 2014, 07:01:42 PM
Of course, none of this excuses things like racial epithets and homophobic comments.  Those sorts of things rather are a sign of a jackass.   Yet even still, that may not always be the case.  An angry individual sorta loses common sense, and when not thinking clearly they may do things that normally they would never, ever do (and often will regret later).  That's just what anger can do to someone.


Hopefully this post made sense, I've been kinda spaced out all day (more than usual, that is), so it might not.


You mentioned having moments where you go berserk and throw things. I spoke to one of my prior girlfriends about this very thing. What seems normal for you is extremely disturbing for me. I don't understand why people throw things or why people fly into rages. I just don't do those things. Sure, I get angry, I get frustrated, but I don't feel the urge to start punching walls and throwing things. We just have fundamentally separate expectations and assumptions about what's acceptable when you're angry. And for me, epithets are never okay. Ever.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 26, 2014, 07:29:39 PM
I'm mentally unstable, and even I don't throw things. When I lose control, I at most bash the desk.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 26, 2014, 07:47:34 PM
You mentioned having moments where you go berserk and throw things. I spoke to one of my prior girlfriends about this very thing. What seems normal for you is extremely disturbing for me. I don't understand why people throw things or why people fly into rages. I just don't do those things. Sure, I get angry, I get frustrated, but I don't feel the urge to start punching walls and throwing things. We just have fundamentally separate expectations and assumptions about what's acceptable when you're angry. And for me, epithets are never okay. Ever.
I also tend to respond very poorly to some situations; I don't throw stuff nowadays (though I certainly tore stuff up as a teenager) and I was never in the habit of insulting other people (much less via slurs or epithets or whatever), but I'm certainly capable of flying off the handle and just hitting the power button on the computer if something really annoys me.  It happens a lot less often nowadays and I don't think I'd do that if some MOBA team were depending on me at the moment, but it's another reason I've not ventured into those waters.  FWIW I wouldn't abuse anyone else there, but quitting is a pretty nasty thing to do too.

That kind of "rage" (for lack of a better term, or perhaps it fits just fine) is a great flaw of mine and I certainly don't make excuses for it.  I don't want to be that kind of person.  I've tried pretty hard over the years to change it, not only for the above reasons but because it ties into my extreme sensitivity to certain noises and distractions (which came into full swing in high school and made it pretty hellish, frankly). 

And I've managed incremental improvement over the years, thankfully.  Getting married and having children certainly helped by 'turning up the volume" on who I already was and making me face more fully what I didn't like about myself and the consequences it had for myself and others.  But the problem's still there, and I don't see any particular reason to believe it will go away.

Does that make me an awful person?  Depends on the measuring stick, and each of us has a different one.  By mine, the answer is basically "yes, but most people are probably pretty seriously messed up in one way or another, so don't beat yourself up about it".  I'm grateful to have found a way through life thus far that's led to a happy family and (generally) happy customers.  For now, that's the best I can do.

Anyway, on the sorts of MOBA-player behavior you were condemning earlier I agree that it's flatly unacceptable.  And for the people doing that who actually justify their behavior as acceptable, and do not seek to right their wrongs... yea, that kind of person, I imagine, is probably a general negative to most/all the people in their lives.  People will offend other people, I see that as inevitable, but a general refusal to seek reconciliation or a tolerable compromise leads to catastrophic runaway effects.

Even for someone who doesn't flaws that serious, there's the matter of dealing with people who do.  If offense turns into long-term bitterness it can lead to disease, difficulty in relationships, etc.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 26, 2014, 08:22:26 PM
Of course, none of this excuses things like racial epithets and homophobic comments.  Those sorts of things rather are a sign of a jackass.   Yet even still, that may not always be the case.  An angry individual sorta loses common sense, and when not thinking clearly they may do things that normally they would never, ever do (and often will regret later).  That's just what anger can do to someone.


Hopefully this post made sense, I've been kinda spaced out all day (more than usual, that is), so it might not.


You mentioned having moments where you go berserk and throw things. I spoke to one of my prior girlfriends about this very thing. What seems normal for you is extremely disturbing for me. I don't understand why people throw things or why people fly into rages. I just don't do those things. Sure, I get angry, I get frustrated, but I don't feel the urge to start punching walls and throwing things. We just have fundamentally separate expectations and assumptions about what's acceptable when you're angry. And for me, epithets are never okay. Ever.

Well, this is the way I look at it is this:  sure, I can be kinda destructive when angry, but.... in the end, nobody really cares if I smash up a few random things that I personally own (and I only do this if I'm *really* angry, which is rare, otherwise I might just knock things off the desk and bang on it).  It doesnt cause any "major" damage to anything, and more importantly, it doesnt hurt anyone.  It's that second part that's important;  not only am I utterly non-violent with others, but I dont even get verbal with them.  So very many people, when angry, will tend to take it out on others nearby without even realizing it.  They get mean, start making nasty comments, start pointing out and then exaggerating perceived flaws, start yelling about all sorts of things, start being insulting.... stuff like that.  So very many people do this.   And of course then you get the ones that get physically abusive, which..... yeah, that's a whole other sack of toads.  But I dont do any of this.

In the end, it's sorta just a way of venting, which is something that pretty much everyone needs to do in some form or other, wether they realize it or not.   And when I think about it, I have to wonder just how much of that kind of behavior online can be attributed to that.  People going online into these when in a bad mood, and then taking it out on everyone there.  I can see this being the case often, actually, particularly considering the bizarro viewpoint that some people have about online interactions where "it's not real life", which..... has always baffled me, but ALOT of people tend to think that way about dealing with others on the Net.  So it becomes an even easier place to make a jerk of yourself.   I always hate that whole idea, it seems bloody stupid to me.


I've forgotten what else I was gonna say, not that this is a surprise.  Ugh, it's too early (late?) for me to be thinking deep thoughts at the moment that dont involve caffiene.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 26, 2014, 08:56:27 PM
Quote
That kind of "rage" (for lack of a better term, or perhaps it fits just fine) is a great flaw of mine and I certainly don't make excuses for it.  I don't want to be that kind of person.  I've tried pretty hard over the years to change it, not only for the above reasons but because it ties into my extreme sensitivity to certain noises and distractions (which came into full swing in high school and made it pretty hellish, frankly). 

Does that make me an awful person?  Depends on the measuring stick, and each of us has a different one.  By mine, the answer is basically "yes, but most people are probably pretty seriously messed up in one way or another, so don't beat yourself up about it".  I'm grateful to have found a way through life thus far that's led to a happy family and (generally) happy customers.  For now, that's the best I can do.
This paragraph kind of baffles me. Having an anger problem that you're working on fixing makes you an awful person?

Holy cow.

I think a lot of people are in your situation. They know they have an anger problem and they're working their best within reason to fix that character flaw. I just disagree with you (and Cyborg) apparently that this makes them bad people. I have the utmost respect for people who know they have a problem, and though it may not disappear overnight (what problem does), are doing their best to fix it with whatever tools they have at their disposal.

Sometimes problems like anger, depression, frustration, sadness, etc. are not so easily fixed. Some people spend their whole lifetimes working out the solutions to these very human conditions. On some level every person experiences them to some degree, but to be a product of these is simply to be human, not awful.

Outside of MOBAs I'm generally a very well-liked and accepted person. I have a lot of friends at school and people who seem to look up to me. I get along with most of my teachers and even spend time with several of them outside of class. I am generally very well-mannered and spoken to other people around me. When I play MOBAs though, my aggressive/angry side sometimes comes out, and I occasionally take this out on my team. Does the tendency to sometimes become angry or irrational when I'm typically kind and compassionate (especially when I'm working to change the former) make me a bad person? Good heavens, I hope not.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on February 26, 2014, 09:29:46 PM

But the problem's still there, and I don't see any particular reason to believe it will go away.


Does that make me an awful person?  Depends on the measuring stick, and each of us has a different one.  By mine, the answer is basically "yes, but most people are probably pretty seriously messed up in one way or another, so don't beat yourself up about it". 


Anyway, on the sorts of MOBA-player behavior you were condemning earlier I agree that it's flatly unacceptable.  And for the people doing that who actually justify their behavior as acceptable, and do not seek to right their wrongs... yea, that kind of person, I imagine, is probably a general negative to most/all the people in their lives.


Even for someone who doesn't flaws that serious, there's the matter of dealing with people who do.  If offense turns into long-term bitterness it can lead to disease, difficulty in relationships, etc.


I trimmed a lot of what you wrote in favor of some of the points that seemed most important, but overall this was a good post. I wonder how you deal with your sensitivities and have children. Aren't children incredibly loud? My questions about rage behavior are not intended as a true or false statement on whether or not someone is 'worthy' as a human being. I'm talking about ragers who play video games- specifically moba's- and the misery they inflict on everyone around them.




Quote from: Misery
in the end, nobody really cares if I smash up a few random things that I personally own (and I only do this if I'm *really* angry, which is rare, otherwise I might just knock things off the desk and bang on it). 


Are you sure nobody cares? The girl in question thought the same thing, until I told her that I felt personally threatened when items go flying, and it makes me uncomfortable in my own space. It raises the fight or flight reaction of the people around you, whether you acknowledge it or not. Does the person have to defend themselves, even against inadvertent flying objects? Does the person have to defend others, such as children?


Peeling away the skin of this onion, maybe the "jerk" determination only exists in relation to how the rage behavior affects other people.


We all come from different backgrounds. Keith is sensitive to sounds for whatever reason. I am the antithesis of rage. I don't rage, and I avoid people that do. I am uncomfortable around people that throw things, yell, scream, and swear, and generally tantrum when they are angry. I don't hang around friends who do that, and I don't date women who do that. I don't want rage in my games. And in my personal opinion, the rage I am talking about specifically in this thread goes above and beyond frustration and ruins the game.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 26, 2014, 09:39:17 PM
This paragraph kind of baffles me. Having an anger problem that you're working on fixing makes you an awful person?
It depends on what you mean.  I say "yes" (given the degree of the anger problem in question) because I do not want to act as if the problem is excusable or somehow not my responsibility.  It doesn't get me depressed or whatever, but if I refused to take responsibility for it (or to acknowledge it as something for which responsibility must be taken) then it would probably become worse rather than better.

In other words, I'd rather make an honest measurement against what I know a well-adjusted person can be like, rather than lower the standard to meet what I actually am :)  Others are free to apply different standards, of course.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on February 26, 2014, 09:42:55 PM
In other words, I'd rather make an honest measurement against what I know a well-adjusted person can be like, rather than lower the standard to meet what I actually am :)  Others are free to apply different standards, of course.


Elegant choice.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 26, 2014, 10:00:19 PM
You're free to use whatever method you like in order to classify yourself or fix your problems, but overwhelming psychological studies have shown that a negative self-image (i.e., I'm an awful person) is pretty much the exact opposite of the kind of mind state a person requires in order to efficiently deal with their underlying issues.

Noble as it may be, it's ironically counter-productive to the task at hand. Many times, a negative self-image is what causes the anger in the first place.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 27, 2014, 04:40:11 AM

Are you sure nobody cares? The girl in question thought the same thing, until I told her that I felt personally threatened when items go flying, and it makes me uncomfortable in my own space. It raises the fight or flight reaction of the people around you, whether you acknowledge it or not. Does the person have to defend themselves, even against inadvertent flying objects? Does the person have to defend others, such as children?


Ah, but who said I do it in the presence of others?  That'd be kinda dumb, as it might smack someone.  I'm the rare sort that cant even squish a bug without feeling bad about it for a week (no, seriously, I have to pick the damn things up and take them outside), so I sure as heck wouldnt hurt anyone.

Friends of mine simply know I have a short fuse.... I dont get violent in their presence.  Oh, they'll sometimes find out later that I launched some random object at the wall and thus broke it, but.... par for the course, really.  They know me well enough to know that I'm not a threat to anyone. I'm not breaking anyone else's stuff, so to them it's a non-issue.

And in all honesty, if someone DID have some major problem with it, well.... they can bloody well go somewhere else, is what they can do.  I do tend to have that attitude of "I'll do what I want, thanks".... call it "spoiled child syndrome".... and really, if others have a problem with the way I am, it's THEIR problem.  I am fine with the way I am.... I'm always in control, I care about others, and I never hurt anyone... that's about all I need.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 27, 2014, 09:47:28 AM
You're free to use whatever method you like in order to classify yourself or fix your problems, but overwhelming psychological studies have shown that a negative self-image (i.e., I'm an awful person) is pretty much the exact opposite of the kind of mind state a person requires in order to efficiently deal with their underlying issues.

Noble as it may be, it's ironically counter-productive to the task at hand. Many times, a negative self-image is what causes the anger in the first place.
It may be difficult for you to understand or believe, but I don't actually have a negative self-image.  I think I'm seriously flawed in some important respects, but I don't think that makes me a net loss (much less a total loss), if I'm careful to play to my strengths.

The reason I brought up my personal example, in fact, was to offer some support for your case that someone might behave inexcusably in some situations (the folks who get abusive with their team in a MOBA) but still be a genuine benefit to others outside of that.  And not just because of social contract or fear of consequences or whatever.

That said, some of the ways that's put forward (like "it's just venting" or "tons of people do it") sound like the behavior actually is excusable in a sort of ends-justify-the-means way, and I don't agree with that.  Do what you gotta do, but be honest about what it really is.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 27, 2014, 10:09:06 AM
Aren't children incredibly loud?
I related ths conversation to my wife, and we laughed quite a lot over that question.

Oh yes, extraordinarily noisy.

For that matter even before our first child was born it was a major adjustment for my wife to live in the same house as me day after day.  But we've found ways to accommodate both my need to avoid certain stimuli and my family's need to not walk on eggshells.

There's various specific techniques and methods, but the main principle is mutual acceptance.  I accept that they deserve an environment free of anger flare-ups (or fear of the same), and they accept that I'm worth the adjustments to keep my environment from being harder than it has to be.  Doesn't always work on either side, but that's what apology and forgiveness is for.


And in the end I guess I wouldn't be nearly as deterred by the legendary snake-pit reputation of MOBA personal interaction if people actually did take responsibility for the giving or taking of offense.  But it doesn't seem that there's really much room for reconciliation in such cases.  No "inertia", in a sense, in that once someone is offended they basically just fly away and there's no particular counter-pressure to motivate them to resolve the conflict rather than simply flee from it.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 27, 2014, 04:12:58 PM
Quote
It may be difficult for you to understand or believe, but I don't actually have a negative self-image.  I think I'm seriously flawed in some important respects, but I don't think that makes me a net loss (much less a total loss), if I'm careful to play to my strengths.
In the same way, we can't use the tiny experience we have with the average MOBA player to automatically determine that their behavior makes them a "net loss". We have no idea about the strengths or compassion they may display in other areas of their life.

It's certainly not enough evidence to call them "toxic, barely sociable spoiled brats" or what have you. This kind of attitude simply makes the behavior worse.

I tend not to believe in "bad people". I think that every person sometimes does bad things, but the whole idea of classifying each person as "good" or "bad" seems hilariously childish and simplistic to me. Human beings are a complex amalgamation of experiences, genes, and thought patterns. To try to classify such a diverse set of factors into a tiny category like that only shows a person's inability to grasp basic human psychology.

Further evidence that there is no such thing as a "bad person" is the fact that each person tries to view themselves as good in their own minds. If people really were bad, why do they care so much about keeping a positive self-image? Even Hitler believed he was justified in his actions. I just read a book called "Hitler's World View" by Eberhard Jackel. Hitler seemed to truly believe he had a divine right to act and command the way he did: "Therefore, I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator: By warding of the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work." "If Germany frees itself from this embrace [the Jews], this greatest of all dangers to the peoples can be regarded as crushed for the entire world."

Is there some dishonesty and self-deception in this kind of mindset? Certainly. But if self-deception makes you a bad person, then most religious people must automatically be considered bad people. Even if you're religious, you have to concede this, because you believe *your* religion is right, and all the other ones are wrong. So no matter where you're coming from, a large group of people are deceiving themselves about some obvious truth.

I of course don't conclude that people who self-deceive are automatically bad people either. I think a lot of these people playing these (and any competitive) game have anger issues, and they legitimately believe they have a right to act the way they do. It's not necessarily because they want to harm others, maybe it's because they've been mentally or emotionally abused in their life, and they feel that by standing idle while that happens again, they are simply inviting more of it.

I'll use a personal example of why I sometimes blow up in these games. I was brought up in a strict religious environment in where I was taught my own feelings were invalid and had to be suppressed. It was "wrong and sinful" to feel angry, upset, or otherwise vengeful towards others, and Biblical references were used to justify these decrees. Well as you can imagine, suppressing my emotions did little to fix them. In fact, it left me with a lot of guilt, anxiety, and of course anger which I simply pushed down for most of my teenage life because of the way I was taught to believe, bringing me to the point of near suicide many times.

When I finally discarded of these damaging beliefs, I had an irrational but completely understandable fear of EVER suppressing my emotions. So now, when I feel angry, upset, or scared, instead of bottling that up inside, I have a hard time not letting it out immediately because of the deep terrifying knowledge of what happens when I bottle them up instead.

Of course the trick is to find a happy medium, and I'm working on that. I still sometimes have "outbursts", but that doesn't make me a bad person, that just means I'm trying to find a happy medium without completely suppressing my emotions the way I did before just for the sake of others, bringing me to the point of near suicide.

I think most people with anger problems likely have a similar story or sordid past, and so attempting to be sympathetic or understanding about where they're coming from instead of automatically labeling them as nasty or vile people, which I continue to see happening in this thread, is probably a better solution.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 27, 2014, 05:07:15 PM
In the same way, we can't use the tiny experience we have with the average MOBA player to automatically determine that their behavior makes them a "net loss".
Yes, that's the exact point I was aiming at.

Quote
I tend not to believe in "bad people". I think that every person sometimes does bad things, but the whole idea of classifying each person as "good" or "bad" seems hilariously childish and simplistic to me.
Certainly there's no cosmic meterstick hanging on some sky-hook out there to measure people.  It's not like you're racking up points and penalties in some impersonal disembodied high score list.

It's more a matter of your relationship to others.  Each person (that knows you at all) will have some opinion of what they like and don't like about you.  There's not really a scalar assignment of value there either, but there is usually a general sense of whether the "things I like" outweigh the "things I don't like".  Those perceptions, and the valuations attached to them, and how those valuations are acted upon, will vary widely from person to person.

Nonetheless, there are behaviors and attitudes which weigh in with a very high negative magnitude among a great majority of people (often including the people with those very traits).

So an adult who responds to "not getting my way" stimuli with "kick-scream-throw-things" doesn't need to feel some kind of cosmic guilt for offending the universe.  The universe doesn't care.  But that doesn't mean there isn't a very real, very serious problem.


As for the suppressing of emotions (quite common among many religions/worldviews), yea, that can lead to tremendous amounts of bitterness.  "Just bottle it up" is over-simplistic and destructive.

On the other hand, "just let it out" can also be over-simplistic and destructive.  It can change from "hold it in, make yourself sick" to "let it all out, make everyone else sick too".

Genuinely dealing with the offense or feeling of guilt or whatever, so that it stops poisoning anyone... that's the hard part.  But it's the only way to live, as opposed to slowly dying.  The more I live and see, the more I think most people take the slowly-dying approach.  Ultimately, the poison is found preferable to change.

Which, perhaps ironically, brings to mind Planescape Torment: what can change the nature of a man?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 27, 2014, 08:01:28 PM
Quote
Genuinely dealing with the offense or feeling of guilt or whatever, so that it stops poisoning anyone... that's the hard part.  But it's the only way to live, as opposed to slowly dying.
Well sure, but it doesn't happen overnight :P

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on February 27, 2014, 08:07:12 PM
I think most people with anger problems likely have a similar story or sordid past, and so attempting to be sympathetic or understanding about where they're coming from instead of automatically labeling them as nasty or vile people, which I continue to see happening in this thread, is probably a better solution.

If it helps, I think in most cases players of this genre dont really point towards any one specific individual with that sort of thing..... it's moreso that the community, as a whole, is nasty and vile overall.  Which is something I can agree with.  One way or another, it IS filled with jerks, there WILL be people who insult you just because they get a kick outta it, and so on.


Also I love the part where this topic got back on the rails for like 2 minutes, and then immediately leapt into a chasm again.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on February 27, 2014, 10:12:40 PM
It's certainly not enough evidence to call them "toxic, barely sociable spoiled brats" or what have you. This kind of attitude simply makes the behavior worse.


Yes, my lack of rage totally makes the behavior worse. Blame the victim, much? You see, I can do psychology 101 grab bag, also.  ;D

I tend not to believe in "bad people". I think that every person sometimes does bad things, but the whole idea of classifying each person as "good" or "bad" seems hilariously childish and simplistic to me.
Further evidence that there is no such thing as a "bad person" is the fact that each person tries to view themselves as good in their own minds. If people really were bad, why do they care so much about keeping a positive self-image? Even Hitler believed he was justified in his actions.
 I just read a book called "Hitler's World View" by Eberhard Jackel. Hitler seemed to truly believe he had a divine right to act and command the way he did: "Therefore, I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator: By warding of the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work." "If Germany frees itself from this embrace [the Jews], this greatest of all dangers to the peoples can be regarded as crushed for the entire world."

Now that's just asinine and offensive. Godwin's law, you lose. I hate to even dignify this part of what you wrote because millions of murdered people do not need to be used as justification for your arguments, but I actually read Mein Kampf (not just someone else's opinion on it, like what you read), and religious justification for his behavior is not prevalent at all. The very mention of it smells more like pontification and making things sound good, because he's not using scripture to make his point. Hell, the Old Testament is Jewish! This is more akin to punctuating one's remarks, not making a divine argument. If you read the book which you are reading a review of, you will find out where Hitler gets the idea about murdering Jews. Hint, it starts with a propaganda pamphlet on his way through the streets.

And even if there was a self-professed divine argument, your point about "he meant well, in his own mind" is bogus. You would have to throw out every adjective in the dictionary, because it's all relative including good and evil, which is just stupid. This is the kind of philosophy you get from a bunch of chuckleheads smoking up on a road trip. We have comparisons, we have data points, we can most assuredly say that genocide does make one an evil, bad person. If you want to get nihilist and reference the void because it's all relative in an empty, cold universe, it just doesn't hold water next to the data points that we have to make relative opinions. Nihilism works in your freshman year of high school, but after that, it really loses it's shine.


But if self-deception makes you a bad person, then most religious people must automatically be considered bad people. Even if you're religious, you have to concede this, because you believe *your* religion is right, and all the other ones are wrong. So no matter where you're coming from, a large group of people are deceiving themselves about some obvious truth.


You're jumping around from topic to topic, setting up strawmen and knocking them down, and pulling from your philosophy grab bag. Yes, we are all aware that we have millions of people experiencing disparate spiritual adventures and mass hallucinations. What of it?


It's not necessarily because they want to harm others, maybe it's because they've been mentally or emotionally abused in their life, and they feel that by standing idle while that happens again, they are simply inviting more of it.


Who cares about the origin? I don't. We all experience life. Life is hard. Yes it hurts, yes it shapes you, and it can certainly push people in directions they might not otherwise have gone. But that doesn't preclude conclusions about their personality. Someone can be a raging jerk and have a horrible childhood as an excuse.

I'll use a personal example of why I sometimes blow up in these games. I was brought up in a strict religious environment in where I was taught my own feelings were invalid and had to be suppressed. It was "wrong and sinful" to feel angry, upset, or otherwise vengeful towards others, and Biblical references were used to justify these decrees. Well as you can imagine, suppressing my emotions did little to fix them. In fact, it left me with a lot of guilt, anxiety, and of course anger which I simply pushed down for most of my teenage life because of the way I was taught to believe, bringing me to the point of near suicide many times.


See previous point.

When I finally discarded of these damaging beliefs, I had an irrational but completely understandable fear of EVER suppressing my emotions. So now, when I feel angry, upset, or scared, instead of bottling that up inside, I have a hard time not letting it out immediately because of the deep terrifying knowledge of what happens when I bottle them up instead.


See previous point.

I think most people with anger problems likely have a similar story or sordid past, and so attempting to be sympathetic or understanding about where they're coming from instead of automatically labeling them as nasty or vile people, which I continue to see happening in this thread, is probably a better solution.


Yes, everyone around you should be understanding and bend to whatever is wrong with you and your self-declared childhood issues, because that works for you.


Granted, self-entitlement is gratifying, but what about everyone around you? Aren't they entitled to their own claims of how they want to be treated? What if their childhood requires that you put your outbursts aside for their benefit? I don't think online multiplayer MOBA games are meant to be therapy for childhood issues, although it's certainly a theory that this is what is happening.


I just can't excuse the behavior, chalk it up to the void, couch it on good intentions, and say it's all relative anyways, so who cares? I care. I want to play a team game without being abused.


If it helps, I think in most cases players of this genre dont really point towards any one specific individual with that sort of thing..... it's moreso that the community, as a whole, is nasty and vile overall.  Which is something I can agree with.  One way or another, it IS filled with jerks, there WILL be people who insult you just because they get a kick outta it, and so on.


Yes.



So an adult who responds to "not getting my way" stimuli with "kick-scream-throw-things" doesn't need to feel some kind of cosmic guilt for offending the universe.  The universe doesn't care.  But that doesn't mean there isn't a very real, very serious problem.


As for the suppressing of emotions (quite common among many religions/worldviews), yea, that can lead to tremendous amounts of bitterness.  "Just bottle it up" is over-simplistic and destructive.

On the other hand, "just let it out" can also be over-simplistic and destructive.  It can change from "hold it in, make yourself sick" to "let it all out, make everyone else sick too".


Exactly. Don't use the universe as an excuse. Take responsibility and try to recognize that others are entitled to a certain standard, just as anyone else. That means everybody has to tone it down if we're going to play on the same team for the sake of the group.


If you are alone, like in Misery's case, the tantrum is the same as whether or not a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? Sure, but it's overall meaningless to the absent observer. If those trees start to topple over around a present observer, better get out of the way. Which brings us full circle.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 27, 2014, 11:20:25 PM
Quote
Yes, my lack of rage totally makes the behavior worse. Blame the victim, much? You see, I can do psychology 101 grab bag, also.  ;D
Don't really need to respond to the rest of your argument, because you disprove all of it with this right here.

You're the victim? That's laughable. You've said more cruel and heartless things about 10 million+ people that you barely know than I've ever been personally attacked with in a DotA game.

Quote
Firstly, let's all acknowledge that the moba community is full of toxic, spoiled brats that are only marginally capable of acceptable socialization
Quote
This genre attracts narcissist gamers who really need an audience (the other nine people playing) for their own perceived awesomeness. Legends in their own minds. How many people play this game because they want to have nice social gaming session with other people? "Let's go meet the nice people on dota!" Of course not. It's more like, let's dominate and show off for nine other people.
Quote
These same internet miscreants also firmly believe they are experts at understanding meta...
Quote
I enjoy playing these games now and then, but I despise the average personality who plays them.

So again, you're doing EXACTLY what these MOBA players are doing in spreading your hatred and vitriol to a large group of people, because you feel rationally justified in doing so. Your hatred is not rational, your nasty comments are not rational, but you feel they are rational.

You are the literal epitome of proving my point Cyborg, and you prove it so sweetly because you can't even see how perfectly you're doing it.

The only difference is, I'm not going to sit here and badmouth you and call you a bad person like you do to others for your own behavior, because I know that doing this only makes the behavior worse. I'm just pointing out your blatant hypocrisy.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 27, 2014, 11:41:03 PM
Also I love the part where this topic got back on the rails for like 2 minutes, and then immediately leapt into a chasm again.
While I'm the first to drive trains off the rails with mad-scientist-glee, I think we're actually hitting one of the most important MOBA-related topics.  Do we want to improve the MOBA experience?  What really gets in the way of the fun more?  Old-style last-hitting mechanics or jerks-for-teammates?  Both are valid areas for improvement, but the latter is a far more fundamental, difficult problem.  So difficult, I think, that it's largely ignored or papered over in favor of tech/balance/etc issues that seem actually solvable.

And I think that point is shown again here: Wingflier, Cyborg, do you have any intentions to find some form of reconciliation or mutual understanding that will allow you to treat each other with decency?

Hard-hitting argument is fine, but is that what's actually happening here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=kQFKtI6gn9Y#t=37)?

And if the two of you, who I know from some experience to be considerably more analytical than the average MOBA player, can't meet halfway, how much less random strangers in a proverbial snakepit?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on February 28, 2014, 07:41:07 AM
I have no problem with Cyborg, it just seems that he's constantly contradicting himself and attacking large groups of people (as well as other forum members) in attempt to display himself as the self-proclaimed victim.

Obviously I'm going to disagree with these tactics in the spirit of fair debate.

In other words, I have no desire to attack Cyborg personally, but his arguments, which seem completely self-defeating. He is engaging in the same behavior he claims to detest in the MOBA Community.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 28, 2014, 07:37:29 PM
This seemed (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2014/02/28) remarkably appropriate.

If it were properly animated I think I would get a kick out of a permanently-smiling sunflower trying to heap on verbal abuse.

Maybe the alternative to the hard problem of stopping such behavior is to harness it.  Preferably with old cartoon material.  If I could see Smurfette screaming at a Tryndamere about his K/D I might be laughing too hard to finish the match.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on February 28, 2014, 08:34:29 PM
And I think that point is shown again here: Wingflier, Cyborg, do you have any intentions to find some form of reconciliation or mutual understanding that will allow you to treat each other with decency?

Hard-hitting argument is fine, but is that what's actually happening here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=kQFKtI6gn9Y#t=37)?

And if the two of you, who I know from some experience to be considerably more analytical than the average MOBA player, can't meet halfway, how much less random strangers in a proverbial snakepit?


Wing, he's not asking whether you like me or not. He's asking whether you plan to be decent. I'm obviously being asked the same thing.


Let me be clear. My calling the community the pile of dung that it is, is not unique. It's a common fact, acknowledged in this thread, lampooned by countless comics, and is so obvious that the makers have tried to find ways of getting people to behave, such as the tribunal. I'm not making this up, it's an industry-wide problem that everyone else is aware of except for you, apparently. Maybe it's because you are self-admittedly part of the problem? Your desperate need for everyone to acquiesce to whatever childhood problems you have conflicts with my need to have a pleasant 30 minute experience inside of this game.


So the question being asked is, how do we achieve that? How does a guy like me and someone like you coexist for 30 minutes in a game? I have some ideas.


* No chat.
* No k/d/a/c scoreboard.
* No killing blows recorded. Award gold according to how much of the enemy HP you destroyed.
* Reward objectives on the scoreboard.
* Award gold for multiple people attacking creep camps.
* Add a fifth ability that can only be used to help a teammate.


The no chat option I already accomplish. I don't like people who rage. I am bigoted against bigots. I'm intolerant of intolerance. I thought I have managed quite well to avoid name-calling and just address the points. I have been fair, or so I thought. While it's no secret that wing and I won't be sending each other Christmas cards, it's a far cry from MOBA chat.


Two other random thoughts I had. There are other games that seem to attract issues. Does anyone remember "Barrens" world chat from World of Warcraft? They had websites devoted to that kind of behavior. My second random thought, if you play against bots, there is literally zero arguing. I have had zero bad experiences playing against the AI (free win of the day points). The people who play that have entirely different motivations, and everything that causes fighting is just not there.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on March 01, 2014, 02:54:51 AM
Let me be clear. My calling the community the pile of dung that it is, is not unique. It's a common fact, acknowledged in this thread, lampooned by countless comics, and is so obvious that the makers have tried to find ways of getting people to behave, such as the tribunal. I'm not making this up, it's an industry-wide problem

Aye, this.  I dont think this bit can possibly be overstated, particularly with this genre;  it's THAT bad.  No, actually, it's worse.  The genre has become downright legendary for toxic idiots behaving like absolute asshats, to the point where all the screaming on swearing that Xbox Live is known for is all happy flowers and cute forest critters by comparison.  I know MANY people at this point who have stated that, sure, they'd like to try one of these, because the genre looks very fun, but they absolutely will not touch it because of the toxicity. 



Quote
* No chat.

This always is a desired idea, as far as I'm concerned.  Hearthstone does this, and it's very easy to see exactly why.  As a result, I'm alot less easily stressed out or jittery when playing that, because whoever I'm playing it with CANT do any of the toxic crap.  Solstice Arena does this one as well.

Quote
My second random thought, if you play against bots, there is literally zero arguing. I have had zero bad experiences playing against the AI (free win of the day points). The people who play that have entirely different motivations, and everything that causes fighting is just not there.

Aye, this is a good point too.  A certain friend of mine is really into Dota 2.... absolutely freaking loves it.  He'd probably like other mobas alot too, if he gets more free time to try them out.  But he doesnt like dealing with the online idiocy, and so ends up doing alot of solo bot matches.

Which I can totally understand, though my own problem with it is very simple:  The bots are dumber than a sack of hammers.  I have not yet played a moba where this is not true.  There's just too much absolute stupid on the part of the AI for it to even be worth much as simple practice.  Otherwise I'd probably use this mode for that very thing in Dota, but.... ugh.  The bots drive me up the wall.  The bots on BOTH teams, that is.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 01, 2014, 09:31:57 AM
I have no problem with Cyborg, it just seems that he's constantly contradicting himself and attacking large groups of people (as well as other forum members) in attempt to display himself as the self-proclaimed victim.

Obviously I'm going to disagree with these tactics in the spirit of fair debate.

In other words, I have no desire to attack Cyborg personally, but his arguments, which seem completely self-defeating. He is engaging in the same behavior he claims to detest in the MOBA Community.

Quote from: Cyborg
I thought I have managed quite well to avoid name-calling and just address the points. I have been fair, or so I thought. While it's no secret that wing and I won't be sending each other Christmas cards, it's a far cry from MOBA chat.

You each think you've behaved decently towards each other.  But do either of you think the other has behaved decently toward you?  Is there a disconnect there, and why?

I wouldn't have brought it up were it not for the multiple complaints I've seen from other forum members about the way you two speak to each other here.  Not about either individually, just the combination.

It's entirely possible some/all of those complaints could be more from the sensitivity of the person complaining, or some form of misunderstanding. 

I'm highly sensitive to rancor myself (I tend to leave the room if people get into a tense argument in my presence), but when I look at your posts to each other and compare that to other times I've seen such (online or in person) the only examples I can recall are when the speakers viewed each other with deep contempt.

And yes, it's a faaaaar cry from MOBA chat.  It's not even on the radar by that standard.  Not to harp excessively on that one comment, but I've seen it come up multiple times in discussions somehwat similar to this one, so:  surely we can't use that standard as any meaningful measurement of decency, wherever on that scale something might fall.  It's kind of like saying "this three-days-in-the-dumpster roast chicken is nowhere near as bad for you as eating plutonium" :)

Anyway, it's not my intent to long-term derail on an analysis of the motives behind the posts in this thread, but it is useful to think about how (to paraphrase Cyborg) to allow 30 minutes of coexistence between two incompatible people so they can pursue a shared goal.

Basically put them in hermetically sealed boxes (relative to one another) and remove distractions from playing the game :)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on March 01, 2014, 09:50:39 AM
I agree with you that the "debate" between us has become a problem. I'm sorry it has escalated to this phase, and I take personal responsibility for that.

Hypocrisy is very frustrating to me, and the level of it that Cyborg has shown here is absolutely astounding. The latest insult to the entire MOBA Community is that they are a "pile of dung", and saying this seems to be justified because "lots of people agree" is extremely amusing to me, especially when Cyborg continues to point our logical fallacies throughout the thread.

Once again, people have anger problems and they take it out on others sometimes. High-stress or competitive situations increase the likelihood of that. This discussion is a perfect example of that. The problem is not that people sometimes hurt each other or take their problems out on others (this is human), the problem is when people feel RATIONALLY JUSTIFIED in doing so, and refuse to apologize because they claim some kind of moral right to say nasty things about other people. I know I'm not going to change his mind, I've decided to exit the discussion with him. I'll continue posting in the thread, just on different topics.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 01, 2014, 10:05:40 AM
The problem is not that people sometimes hurt each other or take their problems out on others (this is human), the problem is when people feel RATIONALLY JUSTIFIED in doing so, and refuse to apologize because they claim some kind of moral right to say nasty things about other people.
Well, which of the two is worse:

1) Someone who spends 15 minutes bombarding a Dota2 teammate with epithets and slurs because they had the dire temerity to play counter-meta.

2) Someone who looks at the speaker in example #1, concludes that this behavior is on a level with "humanoid vermin", and expresses that judgment verbally.

?

Both consider themselves justified.

I think 2 is still a problematic thing for someone to do.  It may be fair from a "strict justice" standpoint, but I don't think the human race can survive if we all take that approach.

But it's certainly much closer to an unclouded view of reality than demonstrated by the speaker in the first example.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on March 01, 2014, 11:00:37 AM
I agree insofar as calling the MOBA community a pile of dung. There is A LOT of verbal abuse inthose communities, even in Smite, in spite of it generally being lighter and more friendly than other MOBAs. However, going so far as to call these people bad IRL is stretching it. Most of them are just young. That being said, there's never an excuse for behaving like an utter douchebag. There are however explanations. Then of course there are the cases of people that are just straight up mean. But putting that label on everyone? Nope, that's stretching it, and it's incredibly insulting to people like me, who have never, to my knowledge, abused anyone in game ever.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 01, 2014, 11:07:07 AM
But putting that label on everyone? Nope, that's stretching it, and it's incredibly insulting to people like me, who have never, to my knowledge, abused anyone in game ever.
I was assuming that the labels Cyborg was applying, while intended to be general, were not intended to be exhaustive of every single person who plays MOBAs (that would include him in the blast radius, after all).
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on March 01, 2014, 11:41:41 AM
To call a community a pile of dung or a bunch of toxic, spoiled brats is not an absolute statement about the human worthiness of every single person playing. It's a statement about the collective value of the community. You might have some very nice players, but the average behavior of the community is toxic. Do any of you read the forums? Do you play these games? These are not pleasant places to be. I consider Wing's outrage to be entirely fake and predicated on distracting from the points therein, as it's quite common knowledge what goes on in the MOBA community. There are other participants in this thread who are agreeing with this also, but Wing only aims his indignation in my direction. Not that I care, it's only to point out the genuineness of his argument just doesn't exist.


I think some of the objections to the communication issues are from the 9/11 thread, which is a debate thread. It could be that people are sensitive to disagreeable topics and contentious discussion. In which case could decide that the off-topic forum cannot have controversial topics. The way I see it, the posting of that topic was inciting the response that it got, and I don't see that anyone should feel bad about it. I'm sure the same thing would happen if a topic was called "Abortion- is it right?." Let's not post that topic.  :P


Even as the subject of many of Wing's posts, I have felt no anxiety nor stress over what he has written, so I wonder how someone else could be so injured over it? Yes, I have called his conspiracy ramblings crazy talk, I have directly addressed the unscientific, uneducated, and illogical conclusions of that thread, and I have replied to many of his psychobabble postings quite directly, but I am very careful to address the "facts," behavior, and not the person. I wholeheartedly admit that I enjoyed that discussion, and I can understand why some people would not want to read it.


If he himself is feeling any anxiety, it's because he's internalized that criticism, not because I have labeled him a horrible person or something. Which I haven't. I don't know if he's horrible. As a gamer, with his self-admitted rage problems, I know we couldn't ever play together. That's the only thing I know about him for sure.


So yes, I think we can peacefully exist for time slices, probably by trying for the "no chat" suggestion. We should each try and ignore the other, just like LOL or whatever your favorite game is, with the knowledge that neither of us will have any beneficial effect on each other or anyone else. Great idea for forum software: an ignore button that hides all postings!


In other news, I just tried to install Smite, and it came up with a window asking me if I wanted to install "prerequisite software" without telling me what it is. Because this is free, I'm immediately thinking spyware and adware. So I'm not going to install it.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 01, 2014, 11:58:21 AM
In other news, I just tried to install Smite, and it came up with a window asking me if I wanted to install "prerequisite software" without telling me what it is. Because this is free, I'm immediately thinking spyware and adware. So I'm not going to install it.
It's just trying to ward.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on March 01, 2014, 12:33:04 PM
In other news, I just tried to install Smite, and it came up with a window asking me if I wanted to install "prerequisite software" without telling me what it is. Because this is free, I'm immediately thinking spyware and adware. So I'm not going to install it.
Heh, I know that is extremely vague. But it's simply a bundling of the Flash player so that Smite (and Tribes) can play Youtube videos and Twitch streams from within the client.


However, I ABSOLUTELY agree that it should tell you what it is and why. Hi-Rez isn't exactly known for being exhaustive in their games. Most of their communication happens directly to the community via forums, Reddit, Twitter etc. So yeah...I dunno what is the worst :P
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 01, 2014, 01:10:47 PM
I think some of the objections to the communication issues are from the 9/11 thread, which is a debate thread. It could be that people are sensitive to disagreeable topics and contentious discussion. In which case could decide that the off-topic forum cannot have controversial topics.
I certainly don't think any good would come from our taking a "least common denominator" approach where everything has to pass the most sensitive person's sensitivity filter. 

At the same time we each have an individual responsibility to practice reasonable self-restraint if this community's going to be a nice place to be.  I haven't had the time for a few months now to really be a part of it to know how things are going.  Anyway, I don't think the problem I'm noticing is really in the mode of interaction so much as the duration of the interaction (combined with the mode).  Specifically, it seems to continue well beyond the point at which any genuine chance existed of either party being convinced of the other's position.  If the other side keeps firing then there's some need to continue not letting it stand (in the eyes of bystanders) but I think a mutual cease-fire is a better solution there than just continuing the show.

In other words, I don't think banning more topics is productive, but since we're not really going to solve the world's problems by these discussions I think they can be considered to have run their course when new argument stops in favor of repetition.

Quote
The way I see it, the posting of that topic was inciting the response that it got
That's a fair point.  The pot boiled because it was heated.


Quote
Great idea for forum software: an ignore button that hides all postings!
While I think it's a shame for any of us to reach that level with anyone else here, the function exists:

1) Click "Profile" (on the row starting with Home, Help, Search, etc)
2) Mouseover "Modify Profile" (on line starting with Profile Info)
3) In that list, click on "Buddies/Ignore List..."
4) Click on "Edit Ignore List"
5) Next to "Member:" type in the name and click Add

I'm not sure exactly what it does, but I believe the "Hide messages posted by members on my ignore list." option (from another screen) is on by default.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on March 01, 2014, 01:24:53 PM
Trying out the ignore feature. It should solve it for everybody. And it's no problem for me, I use the ignore button inside moba's all the time.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on March 01, 2014, 08:35:26 PM
To call a community a pile of dung or a bunch of toxic, spoiled brats is not an absolute statement about the human worthiness of every single person playing. It's a statement about the collective value of the community. You might have some very nice players, but the average behavior of the community is toxic. Do any of you read the forums? Do you play these games? These are not pleasant places to be.

Aye, this.   Anyone taking insult from this one is perceiving the statement wrong.   I say this because I use this sort of statement all the time.  The fighting game community, for example.  I often say that the "pro" group is all "a bunch of nasty jerks".  I say this OFTEN.  But it's a blanket statement, and is meant to be more of a generalization, having to do with the group AS A WHOLE. Of COURSE it doesnt mean literally every single individual in there, as I have met a few friendly ones.  But the vast majority are definitely not friendly, so my statement holds.

It's the same with the moba thing, and this sort of statement is used often, not just by me. And I have to agree with it, the communities in most mobas really are absolute garbage.  I sure as heck never believe this about every single individual, as I often do find people in these that are fun to play with and arent jerks.  But when the asshats outnumber the good guys as incredibly much as they do, well.... yeah, it's NOT a good community.  It's a bloody horrible one.

Just makes the good, friendly players that much more valuable.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on March 02, 2014, 05:00:23 AM
Fair enough :P I think most of my experience with MOBA communities come from SMITE, which is friendlier than most, so I guess I don't see it as bad as most others do. We definitely have our fair share of buttheads, but they're not that common. It's kind of the other way around. Whereas you expect to have the occasional game in LoL without someone shouting at you, you expect to the have the occasional game WITH someone shouting at you in SMITE.
 
I guess it's just a matter of time, though, before the community grows large enough for the toxicity to take over.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on March 02, 2014, 07:40:54 AM
Fair enough :P I think most of my experience with MOBA communities come from SMITE, which is friendlier than most, so I guess I don't see it as bad as most others do. We definitely have our fair share of buttheads, but they're not that common. It's kind of the other way around. Whereas you expect to have the occasional game in LoL without someone shouting at you, you expect to the have the occasional game WITH someone shouting at you in SMITE.
 
I guess it's just a matter of time, though, before the community grows large enough for the toxicity to take over.

A reason for less screaming in Smite has occurred to me:  It's very hard to type when you have to be moving around entirely with the WASD keys and such.  In the others you can do a bit of very quick typing after clicking to give your character a move order.

Or at least that's my theory, which I came up with just now.

It does seem dependent on the game though.  Dota has always been the absolute most toxic as I've seen it, followed closely by LoL.  Infinite Crisis hasnt been bad about it, and neither has Dawngate.   Aint seen too much in Smite.... every now and then I might witness some in videos or streams, but not TOO much. 
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on March 02, 2014, 11:26:12 AM
SMITE also has that nifty VGS system that you tend to use much more than typing, and the voices there simply provide a friendlier atmosphere. I mean, a "VR2" (Retreat middle lane!) is conveyed more as a warning than "ffs dude, r mid!" which stirs up toxicity.
 
I dunno, but I think it's a contributing part.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on March 02, 2014, 08:51:32 PM
SMITE also has that nifty VGS system that you tend to use much more than typing, and the voices there simply provide a friendlier atmosphere. I mean, a "VR2" (Retreat middle lane!) is conveyed more as a warning than "ffs dude, r mid!" which stirs up toxicity.
 
I dunno, but I think it's a contributing part.

Yeah, that too.

Can never remember the blasted things myself.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on March 03, 2014, 12:55:54 PM
Well, Strife has christened itself "The MOBA for people scared of MOBAs" (http://www.ign.com/videos/2014/01/09/the-moba-for-people-scared-of-mobas).

Does it really measure up to those standards?

I played a game with my best friend a couple days ago. I'll tell you a little about my friend first. He's classically horrible at these kinds of games. He does not like confrontation or heavily competitive environments. He also isn't the kind of person to put thousands of hours into a competitive game, but would be more likely to do so with a single player TBS or RPG. What will typically happen when I talk him into playing one of these kinds of games, which has happened many times in our 10+ year friendship, is that he will become angry, frustrated, and there have ever been times where he's basically thrown the keyboard across the room because he gets so tired of dealing with the stress and environment of this genre.

Some things I've noticed that bother him the most.

1. The critical nature of the game, he doesn't like being criticized. He handles it very badly.
2. He is often horribly under leveled because he has no concept of sustainability or map positioning, which means he's often missing important opportunities for experience.
3. He can't last hit very well.
4. He doesn't stick with the game long enough to know all the heroes, their abilities, and what they do, so he gets frustrated when someone kills him and he has no idea why.
5. He hates going back to town over and over after being badly harassed or ganked often by the enemy team.
6. He doesn't like/understand the support role which is often relegated to him because of his lack of experience with the game. He doesn't like or understand how to place wards effectively etc.

Did Strife address any of these things? Rather well actually.

1. Talking to the other team is impossible until the game ends, so no trash talk from that angle. In addition, your own team can't see each individual member's deaths (or even kills), so it's much more difficult to say nasty things or blame a specific person for the loss.
2. Since, with the personal courier system and the out-of-combat regen mechanic, one never has to go back to town, there was little opportunity to miss experience.
3. Last hits weren't a problem, I did all of that for him.
4. The Strife team has kept the heroes low, around 15-20, and they don't plan on increasing it that much over time. In addition, the heroes themselves seem pretty simple and easy to understand. Compare this to basically every other MOBA where 50 heroes is the least you'll see, and over 100 is normal, with new ones coming weekly.
5. See point 2.
6. Wards don't exist and there's no need for the classical support because "hard roles" have been removed from the game.

Even Smite doesn't address most of these issues. Just got done playing the second game with my friend of Smite and now he's underleveled, underfarmed, and fuming again (we have no chance). So despite the perceived similarity between Strife and some of the other MOBAs, the differences it does have are actually extremely meaningful where it counts.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on March 03, 2014, 09:28:38 PM
So basically Strife is to Smite what Smite is to other MOBAs? Smite has already been accused of being too "dumbed down" and too "casual". I'm imagining that hardcore LoL/DotA nerds are going to apecrap over Strife, considering how they've treated Smite.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on March 03, 2014, 10:11:38 PM
So basically Strife is to Smite what Smite is to other MOBAs? Smite has already been accused of being too "dumbed down" and too "casual". I'm imagining that hardcore LoL/DotA nerds are going to apecrap over Strife, considering how they've treated Smite.
Oh yeah, they have.

I was looking at the user reviews on some of the Youtube videos and it was absolutely incredible the amount of hatred it got from League of Legends players.

Typically though, I find this to be less of a case of people finding the game to be too "dumbed down" and "casual", and more of a case of them not liking the idea of their game being subjected to worthy competition. It's fanboism at it's finest.

You can kind of imagine. It's the same way in which football fans often talk smack about baseball fans, and baseball fans talk smack about hockey fans etc. Now imagine if American football had some actual competition in terms of a sport which could potentially overtake it in popularity? There would be a similar level of backlash I think.

It really says nothing about the quality of the game. If anything, the mere fact that there is such hatred of it means that the developers are doing something right.

I haven't seen as much hatred from the DotA community as the LoL community. I think DotA players don't feel threatened by it, it's clearly focusing on the on the casual crowd. Most the players I've met on there are LoL players as well. Occasionally you'll find a DotA player, you can tell because they're better ;p
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on March 04, 2014, 08:06:42 AM
So basically Strife is to Smite what Smite is to other MOBAs? Smite has already been accused of being too "dumbed down" and too "casual". I'm imagining that hardcore LoL/DotA nerds are going to apecrap over Strife, considering how they've treated Smite.
Oh yeah, they have.

I was looking at the user reviews on some of the Youtube videos and it was absolutely incredible the amount of hatred it got from League of Legends players.

Typically though, I find this to be less of a case of people finding the game to be too "dumbed down" and "casual", and more of a case of them not liking the idea of their game being subjected to worthy competition. It's fanboism at it's finest.

You can kind of imagine. It's the same way in which football fans often talk smack about baseball fans, and baseball fans talk smack about hockey fans etc. Now imagine if American football had some actual competition in terms of a sport which could potentially overtake it in popularity? There would be a similar level of backlash I think.

It really says nothing about the quality of the game. If anything, the mere fact that there is such hatred of it means that the developers are doing something right.

I haven't seen as much hatred from the DotA community as the LoL community. I think DotA players don't feel threatened by it, it's clearly focusing on the on the casual crowd. Most the players I've met on there are LoL players as well. Occasionally you'll find a DotA player, you can tell because they're better ;p

Oh, I can bet there'll be equal hatred from the Dota players.  There's only one difference:  The LoL players are more vocal (and annoying) about it.  And I say this as someone who enjoys both games.  The Dota ones, instead of insults, tend to approach other games with absolute disdain.  "It's not Dota, it cant be a REAL game for REAL players, so I'm not even going to talk about it" is typically the attitude that I've seen the most frequently from that group. Same negativity, but they seem to sorta wait for people to walk into it instead of stabbing outward with it.  I also note that some of them tend to get really BAFFLED if you tell them you play more than one game.  Like the idea of playing Dota AND something else is like this mindblowing bit of 7th-dimensional quantum physics.  It entertains me to no end.

As for Strife though.... I'll be interested to see just what happens with it.  A moba that isnt "complicated" enough tends to have more trouble than those that are, because..... because. 

That being said, it's got some cool ideas, it uses my personal favorite style of both combat and farming in these (more frequent abilities, less utter obsession with last-hits, which it seems to do in a way very similar to that of Dawngate), the map looks pretty good, and that giant monkey thing is utterly hilarious.  And picking your character BEFORE entering a match!  Agh, I wish ALL of the others had a mode that let you do this. 

I do hope they expand the roster a bit though, but that's just me.

Sadly, I cannot try it yet.  Bloody betas and their bloody invites....
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on March 04, 2014, 10:18:09 AM
At this point I've been playing DotA, Smite, and Strife ;p

I like all 3 of them in their own way. Smite is basically just a better League of Legends. It has all the same mechanics, just more refined, and because it's in 3rd person I think there's a lot more room for technical skill as a player. There are also some major improvements in terms of the way last hitting works and the champion/god design just seems better to me. Also, no "runes/masteries" system is heavenly (pun intended).

Strife is kind of like its own game entirely. It really puts the emphasis on battles and strategic value, rather than things like last hitting, map positioning, and buying all the right items. I've been surprised at how many opportunities I've had to simply outplay my opponents that I don't often get in some of the other MOBAs, at least not overtly. For example, when a hero becomes low, the game basically forces you (indirectly) to kill them, because once they leave the battle for awhile, they'll just regen all their health. So these mechanics create situations where the enemy is prepared to dive your tower to finish you off or vice versa, ending in hilarious ways.

DotA of course is still my favorite. It's definitely the most hardcore of the 3, and probably still the most skill-based by far, but admittedly, a lot of the "skill" is in really stupid areas like last hitting, denying, creep pulling, etc. Still though, once you've mastered those your own personal contribution to the game is much higher than ANY of the others. In Smite or Strife there's just no such thing as an Enigma black hole or Earthshaker echo slam. Individual players just can't make the same amount of impact as they do in DotA. You're really at the mercy of your team in the more casual games, which gets extremely frustrating at times.

Overall I feel that each game (at least of those 3) fills their own niche and plays to its own strengths very nicely. They all have their own benefits and drawbacks, but Strife and Smite are CERTAINLY more appropriate for new players just getting into the genre.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on March 11, 2014, 06:00:51 AM
Did I mention the part where bot makers need to be kicked?  By a giant flaming horse?

Because they kinda do.

I do wonder though why this forum attracts so many of them.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on March 12, 2014, 05:51:51 AM
Did I mention the part where bot makers need to be kicked?  By a giant flaming horse?

Because they kinda do.

I do wonder though why this forum attracts so many of them.
I personally think this forum is fairly spared. One forum I ran had a bot-maker crack the registration process, and the day after the forum had over 8000 new posts. That was fun.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on March 12, 2014, 06:52:38 AM
Did I mention the part where bot makers need to be kicked?  By a giant flaming horse?

Because they kinda do.

I do wonder though why this forum attracts so many of them.
I personally think this forum is fairly spared. One forum I ran had a bot-maker crack the registration process, and the day after the forum had over 8000 new posts. That was fun.

Just..... ouch.   Geez.

Someday maybe I'll understand the deranged thought processes that lead someone to believe that doing such a thing is a good idea.  Today is not that day.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Riabi on March 12, 2014, 07:46:33 AM
Did I mention the part where bot makers need to be kicked?  By a giant flaming horse?

Because they kinda do.

I do wonder though why this forum attracts so many of them.
I personally think this forum is fairly spared. One forum I ran had a bot-maker crack the registration process, and the day after the forum had over 8000 new posts. That was fun.

Just..... ouch.   Geez.

Someday maybe I'll understand the deranged thought processes that lead someone to believe that doing such a thing is a good idea.  Today is not that day.

In many cases, there is a TON of money involved.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Coppermantis on March 12, 2014, 11:37:39 PM
This place has got nothing on the Spore Forum. In its worst days, they were hit by spammers daily who would attack random threads with enormous quantities of GIFs, effectively making them unreadable.

Many of them weren't even bots. That's the sad part.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on March 13, 2014, 12:09:54 AM
A QUAD LANE in competitive DotA? Enemy team gets absolutely crushed? What is this madness?

This is why I love DotA. You just never know what crazy strategies you're going to see next.

http://www.dotacinema.com/vods/7437#game3

When I first saw the team compositions, I was very worried for Na'Vi. It was the 3rd game in an extremely close best of 3, and I knew that in the lategame, Sigma's team had a massive advantage. In fact, I kind of wrote Na'Vi off before the game even started. I could never have anticipated the quad lane :P
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on March 13, 2014, 02:49:41 AM
Ehhhh.... I have to admit, I'm kinda losing interest in Dota myself.  I play the others, but I havent touched that one in months.

The pacing is way too slow, laning is very boring due to lack of combat happening unless a gank occurs, and even then combat is like 2 seconds long.... Support role is at it's worst out of the entire genre (half the time is spent placing wards, and then you get some more gold, to place some more wards... ugh) some of the heroes are absurdly irritating to use (anyone with any type of "pet" or summon) and of course the "cant just surrender and get it over with.... must continue boring guaranteed loss game or end up in the derp queue".... among other things like the last-hit obsession and the anti-logic that is denying.

Me thinks I'm just going to give that one up for now.  It simply requires WAY too much patience, which doesnt work well with the fact that I have what is possibly anti-patience.  The others tend to have constant STUFF happening, so they hold my interest better.  .....and lack the utter obsession with last hits. 
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on March 13, 2014, 03:04:42 AM
Maybe that's why I enjoy DotA so much, it teaches me patience. In patience, comes wisdom. I can literally tell when I play DotA and I can keep my emotions out of the game, in a kind of peaceful logical serenity, I perform so much better.

There's definitely something to be said about the other games though. Strife and Smite are full of action the entire way through, though like I said, I think because of that kind of forced design, there's less strategy overall. It's all about tradeoffs I suppose.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on March 13, 2014, 09:32:24 AM
I feel the same way with DotA actually, even though it's primarily the controls and perspective that is the biggest hurdle (and thus why I don't play any other MOBA than Smite). But it's the pacing seems completely off. The laning phase is ardously long and extremely focus intensive in that you have to last hit and deny, leaving little time or energy for poking. Then comes the actual combat which is over in literally seconds and seem more reliant on team composition than individual skills since people just tend to be instanuked.
 
I dunno, I'm not saying that DotA is bad, I'm just saying that it's definitely not for me.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on March 13, 2014, 12:28:49 PM
I feel the same way with DotA actually, even though it's primarily the controls and perspective that is the biggest hurdle (and thus why I don't play any other MOBA than Smite). But it's the pacing seems completely off. The laning phase is ardously long and extremely focus intensive in that you have to last hit and deny, leaving little time or energy for poking. Then comes the actual combat which is over in literally seconds and seem more reliant on team composition than individual skills since people just tend to be instanuked.
 
I dunno, I'm not saying that DotA is bad, I'm just saying that it's definitely not for me.

I can understand the mouse thing.

Much as I like the genre, I dont like having to use the mouse for movement and such.

Really wish the top-down mobas (aka, not Smite) would get more control options, though that's unlikely.  Future mobas, then, gimme the blasted WASD to move already.  We dont HAVE to stick to this current type, which is only there because that's how the Warcraft engine needed to be controlled.  Or at least that's my theory.


Diablo does this too, and I always want that type of control for it as well.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on March 13, 2014, 12:32:40 PM
Also the simple fact that you can deselect your hero is beyond me completely. I'm naturally a noob since I've only played a few matches in DotA, but the mere fact that I can accidently deselect my hero and get it "lost off screen" is mind boggling to me :) But again, I understand it's to allow control of pets and whatnot, but it just doesn't work at all for me.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on March 13, 2014, 05:09:58 PM
It's not for everybody, but I like it because of the amount of strategy that's involved. You kind of portray the importance of the picking phase as a bad thing, but to me it's actually one of the coolest things about the game, and an advantage it has over other MOBAs. I can get a massive advantage over my opponents before the game even starts.

For example:
Are you playing with a friend?

If yes - Create a really powerful and fun duo lane which scales well into the lategame and wreck face.
If no -

Do you need a jungler?

If yes -
Do they a lot of squishy heroes? Pick Axe.
Do they have a lot of carries/little anti-push? Pick Lycan.
Does your team have a powerful teamfight/aoe composition? Pick Enigma.

If no -

Do you need a solo offlaner?

If yes -
Do you need strong teamfight potential? Pick Tidehunter.
Do you need a strong single target disable? Pick Beastmaster.
Do you need a powerful escape mechanism? Pick Windrunner.

And on and on and on.

Literally with my pick, I can change the entire course of the game because I'm simultaneously countering them and complementing my team to a high degree.

In the other MOBAs, from what I've experienced, this just isn't possible. I mean it's nice in Strife to just be able to pick whatever the hell you want, but it also takes a lot of the strategy out of the game as well. In fact, in most MOBAs it's just a case of picking "x hero for x role". It's really as shallow as that. There may be some soft counters, but nothing to the extent in which counters can affect the game in DotA.

I can understand how overwhelming all of this may be for a person who has little familiarity with the entire roster of ~100 heroes, but for someone who has played the game extensively, it's quite enjoyable.

In terms of the fight pacing, I have to agree with you there. DotA fights can be over within a matter of seconds. Then again, it's the only game I know of in which fights can last upwards of 5 minutes as well. Because of the built-in buyback and TP mechanics, you can have a battle that just rages on and on and on, which is absolutely hilarious to watch and participate in. I've never really seen this kind of opportunity in the other game.

Another aspect of DotA's "high lethality" mechanics is the psychological mind games that go along with that. For example, over a period of 10 years, I've recognized that one of the most important aspects of playing the game has nothing to do with your technical skill at all, but the ability to get into your opponent's mind. Certain actions, positions, and behavior will, depending on the hero, make the average player consider you more of a threat than others. Once you learn how the enemy thinks, you can exploit this kind of psychology to your own advantage. DotA spells may be lethal, but they aren't infinite. In the end, both sides have to pick "high priority" targets to shoot the first volley at, then wait again until their spells recharge to do it again. Usually somebody (or somebodies) will die in that initial burst, leaving the remaining players to finish the battle.

Ensuring that you don't die in that initial burst, by making yourself seem like a less important target, and by having great positioning, can improve your ability to contribute to any given game. On the flip side, if it's a game in which you are doing well, your opponents will begin to fear you. In this scenario, they are often afraid to provoke you or focus you, in the fear that it will be a waste of time or that you will attack them first! It's two sides of the same coin. Use your situation to have a psychological advantage over your opponent and exploit it to the fullest.

Conversely, some heroes WANT to be attacked. When I pick Axe, sure, I may jump in and be bursted into oblivion, but with my trust Blademail activated, and my Counter Helix spinning at full speed, the enemy team will have maimed themselves in the process, leaving my team the opportunity to clean up the mess. Pugna loves the initial burst. Let me lay down my Nether Ward and watch the fireworks as your own spells turn against you.

I just don't find this level of strategy or psychological warfare in the other games. Perhaps it's just because I'm less familiar with them, but I also think that the added complexity of DotA, as frustrating as it may be for beginners, offers more to those who have the patience to stick with it.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on March 13, 2014, 07:26:36 PM
If you can determine the outcome of the entire match solely on your pick before it even begins...I see that as VERY poor design.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on March 13, 2014, 07:58:00 PM
If you can determine the outcome of the entire match solely on your pick before it even begins...I see that as VERY poor design.
There's a difference between determining the outcome and getting a massive advantage.

It's just a matter of the skill game starting before the picks are done.  If you have way more skill at laning than your opponent in the lane then you can often translate that into a massive advantage.  Similarly, if you have way more skill at hero picks than your opponents, you can translate that into a massive advantage.

Determining the outcome is beyond any of that, though.  I'm guessing there have been situations out there where it wouldn't have mattered if one team somehow accidentally picked creeps to control instead of heroes, they still could have won :)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on March 13, 2014, 08:30:12 PM
If you can determine the outcome of the entire match solely on your pick before it even begins...I see that as VERY poor design.


Aye, I can agree with this to some degree.

And the sheer inflexibility of Dota's heroes compared to characters of pretty much all of the others has always seemed to me to be one of the biggest contributors to that.  I think that's why stats like "Ability power" exist in the others.  In the other ones, a super-hard counter isnt so easy to do.... I might see that my opponent has chosen someone that my character is typically bad against, but I can say "Oh geez, he picked THAT guy.  That guy is trouble for my character.  Normally my character is a physical-attack carry, but I'll try going with this other build where I can be more of a nuker from range with the right items".   That's something that I just dont see in Dota much.  In Dota your heroes typically are stuck in whatever potential roles they're designed for.... some players may find a way to use them in a role they're NOT designed for, but as a rule they tend to be very inferior at all times to those that ARE designed for it.  Abilities/spells make up the core of what a character can and cannot do, and in Dota you cant do anything to them in the slightest.

In the others though, you can usually do lots of possible things without becoming weak in said role, though you still have to consider it anyway;  my guy might be pretty effective in that ranged nuker role, but is probably best at that carry role, so it still remains situational.   But it's also DOABLE. 


I'm fine with there being some advantage/disadvantage at start, but.... only to a certain point.  Beyond that, it just gets derpy.  It's something that bugs me in fighting games as well (only in badly designed/balanced ones though).  I dont want this giant starting advantage against my opponent.... it's boring.  Definitely always prefer a more even playing field at the start.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on March 14, 2014, 02:53:56 PM
If you can determine the outcome of the entire match solely on your pick before it even begins...I see that as VERY poor design.
There's a difference between determining the outcome and getting a massive advantage.

It's just a matter of the skill game starting before the picks are done.  If you have way more skill at laning than your opponent in the lane then you can often translate that into a massive advantage.  Similarly, if you have way more skill at hero picks than your opponents, you can translate that into a massive advantage.

Determining the outcome is beyond any of that, though.  I'm guessing there have been situations out there where it wouldn't have mattered if one team somehow accidentally picked creeps to control instead of heroes, they still could have won :)
I think Keith understands it.

The picking/banning phase is certainly important, and it can have a huge impact on the rest of the game, but personal and team skill is also a huge factor as well.

Like I said before, in the Sigma vs. Na'Vi game I posted which started this discussion, I thought Na'Vi was done for. I couldn't see a scenario in which they won the game because, in spite of being easily one of the best teams in the world, they were at such a disadvantage in the mid to late game.

Problem is, it never made it that far. Their completely unexpected quad lane gave them such a massive early game dominance that they secured the victory.

So while I understand Managarmr's perspective, and respect it, I personally think the picking phase of DotA adds an extra layer of strategy and complexity that the other games don't offer, or at least not to nearly the same degree. It's like an intellectual chess match happening before the game even begins.

Quote
And the sheer inflexibility of Dota's heroes compared to characters of pretty much all of the others has always seemed to me to be one of the biggest contributors to that.
I guess I don't agree with this either. I think out of all the games I've played, DotA may have the most flexible roles, unless you count Strife in which the classical roles have more or less been removed.

As an example, Mirana can lane mid, top solo, bot solo, bot support, bot carry, makes a great trilaner, or heck, she can choose not to lane at all and simply roam around the map setting up ganks with her arrow. Windrunner is similar in this regard. Heroes like Tidehunter can be played mid, solo offlane, or support. In fact there are too many examples to list of heroes that can fill so many different roles. Recently I've seen several classic "supports" such as Lion, Warlock, and even Vengeful Spirit mid, and do it well.

Compare that to a game like League of Legends where a champion really *is* stuck in their role. Literally in competitive play, you're probably never going to see a Soraka, Nami, Taric, etc. play any other role than the role they were designed for. The same goes for carries, top laners, AP mids, or junglers. Some of these champions MAY be able to fill 2 or 3 roles, but it's extremely rare. Even if they can fill multiple roles, they are typically only used in one, if they are used at all. Compare this to DotA where many different heroes are used in many different roles all the time, and it's hard for me to really understand the point you're trying to make. If anything, mechanics like AP just pigeonhole a champion even further because they're forced down a certain build path, where heroes like Invoker can build for physical damage, survivability, disables, escapes, magical damage, aoe, single target, or any combination of them all.

So I guess Valve is releasing their "Free-to-Play" (http://store.steampowered.com/app/245550/) documentary soon, which can currently be pre-loaded on Steam. I'm pretty excited to see how it turns out.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on March 14, 2014, 08:57:03 PM
As an example, Mirana can lane mid, top solo, bot solo, bot support, bot carry, makes a great trilaner, or heck, she can choose not to lane at all and simply roam around the map setting up ganks with her arrow. Windrunner is similar in this regard. Heroes like Tidehunter can be played mid, solo offlane, or support. In fact there are too many examples to list of heroes that can fill so many different roles. Recently I've seen several classic "supports" such as Lion, Warlock, and even Vengeful Spirit mid, and do it well.

Compare that to a game like League of Legends where a champion really *is* stuck in their role. Literally in competitive play, you're probably never going to see a Soraka, Nami, Taric, etc. play any other role than the role they were designed for. The same goes for carries, top laners, AP mids, or junglers. Some of these champions MAY be able to fill 2 or 3 roles, but it's extremely rare. Even if they can fill multiple roles, they are typically only used in one, if they are used at all. Compare this to DotA where many different heroes are used in many different roles all the time, and it's hard for me to really understand the point you're trying to make. If anything, mechanics like AP just pigeonhole a champion even further because they're forced down a certain build path, where heroes like Invoker can build for physical damage, survivability, disables, escapes, magical damage, aoe, single target, or any combination of them all.

So I guess Valve is releasing their "Free-to-Play" (http://store.steampowered.com/app/245550/) documentary soon, which can currently be pre-loaded on Steam. I'm pretty excited to see how it turns out.


It's funny, but my own experience has been the direct opposite of this.

With a game like LoL, I can typically think of lots of different ways to use the game mechanics to stick different characters into different roles/whatever.  Taking a carry and making them into a pure ability/spell based nuker, or a normally fragile support into a tankier sort with high health, using some of the same debuffs/whatever to aid in sheer defense by reducing their cooldowns (via items) and stuff like that.

It does of course depend on exactly which game you are playing as to how well this can be done.  LoL does it well enough in my opinion, though the other games (all of which use an AP system) do it a bit better.  Both Infinite Crisis and Dawngate seem to do this very well, a bit better than it works in LoL.   And of course Strife (which I still cant try yet arrrrgh) is looking to make certain to do this one from the ground up.  There are other games as well but these are the most notable.

Dota though... I generally see a given character in one or two extremely specific roles like support or ganker or whatever, and..... that's about it.  They dont really seem to do a whole lot else.


In the end though, for me, only so much of this even matters.  It's really the pacing that'll keep or lose my interest.  Dota can be fascinating.....well, pretty much ANYTHING in this genre can be, at least to me..... but the pacing is so very slow.  Laning in particular I really dont like in Dota (last hit just one creep at a time, slowly, over and over again.... so very many times.... ugh) and the support role that I usually like, it can be fun in that.... but then you have to ward, and THAT isnt much fun at all.  I'd rather be valiantly defending the carry either from enemies or from himself (yay, pub matches!) or something like that.   And there's no way I could do a carry role in Dota.   I can do it in the others.... but in Dota it tends to be THE slowest thing in the game.  The last-hit obsession goes into total overdrive mode with that, getting even worse with certain characters VS others.  I'd be asleep before I ever really got anywhere.


Ugh, there was more to say, but I aint been awake long and am still a bit not entirely here yet.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on March 14, 2014, 10:56:37 PM
HOMG, Blizzard's MOBA, Heroes of the Storm, must be coming closer to the release date because people are streaming it online.

I'm watching it being streamed by TB and some friends right now. Super excited!

http://www.twitch.tv/itmejp
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on March 15, 2014, 02:36:59 AM
Okay let me explain what I've observed so far with HotS:

1. Every hero has a "mount" built in, just like World of Warcraft. They can't be used in battle, but help you get from place to place around the map more quickly.

2. Gold has been completely removed from the game, it doesn't exist as a mechanic.

3. Experience is not a solo endeavor anymore, but is shared amongst the entire team. Your entire team levels in sequence once you have received enough experience individually to push the team over.

4. Items in the traditional sense have been completely removed from the game.

5. I don't think you level your skills, they kind of level themselves for you. Perhaps they all just get slightly better after each level.

6. You choose a 2 "summoner spells" from what I could tell, which last for the rest of the game. You unlock passive spells as well as the game progresses, whose effects seem to take the place of items.

7. All Mercenary Camps, in addition to giving your team experience, become "minions" for your team after you defeat them.

8. "Recall" or in this case "Hearthstone" is also an ability each person gets.

9. Towers themselves have a limited ammunition supply. There is no way to replenish this. Once a tower runs out of ammo, it can no longer defend itself.

10. Lanes are defended not only by towers, but also by "gates", which can only be passed through by allies until they are destroyed. This I guess prevents tower diving, or makes it much harder.

By far the coolest change though:

There are many different maps built into the game. Each map has a different set of objectives which keeps things fresh and encourages team strategy and confrontation.

Here are some examples: A map which has a "submap" built into it. The submap is a "mine" which kind of reminds me of a WoW dungeon. You go down into this mine when it opens (both teams can) and there are many mobs to fight and also a "main boss". Killing mobs or the boss drops these green skulls on the ground. There are 100 skulls in total. Once all the skulls are collected, a giant lane golem spawns for both sides, whose power is based on (for each team), the number of skulls collected. So the team that collected more skulls gets the stronger monster.

A map which has two "Shrines", one on each end. If one team can hold both shrines for long enough, it transforms one of their characters into this massive tanky beast of a hero that can chunk through enemies and buildings alike until he is killed. From what I observed, once the "ultra form" of the person is killed, their character still pops out with full health and mana.

A map with two gold chests on it which fill up with gold coins at set intervals. During these intervals, both teams meet at the chests and duke it out for the coins. Then a member from each team can pick up the coins and return it to their base. Once having done so, and reached a certain number of coins, a neutral set of pirate ships begins bombarding the enemy base from afar, killing towers and buildings with impunity for a short duration of time.

There's probably more, but yeah, I'm very impressed so far with what I've seen. There were a few design mechanics I wasn't too happy with, but in terms of a divergence from the typical MOBA formula, HotS seems to blow Strife clear out of the water. The pacing seems a bit slow, the "range" for the heroes is like abysmal (something I don't like at all, especially when you've got like Nova or Jim Raynor with freaking Sniper Rifles shooting 3 feet ahead of them), but overall it has massive potential.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on March 15, 2014, 06:33:37 AM
I'll give them credit for "going out of the box" that is the MOBA genre. But personally I can't stand their art style. They've been hopelessly stuck in their "WoW" art-style forever and done nothing to improve it. :/ But oh well, might have some cool gameplay at least.


I'm just having a really hard time looking past the WoW-influences in its style. Might just be "old bittervet" speaking.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on March 15, 2014, 10:47:57 AM
I'll give them credit for "going out of the box" that is the MOBA genre. But personally I can't stand their art style. They've been hopelessly stuck in their "WoW" art-style forever and done nothing to improve it. :/ But oh well, might have some cool gameplay at least.


I'm just having a really hard time looking past the WoW-influences in its style. Might just be "old bittervet" speaking.
I too am not a huge fan of World of Warcraft, considering it the epitome of the "pay-to-grind" type gaming model. The game is so mindless that it makes their previous titles, such as Diablo 2, look intellectually taxing in comparison. To me it's the epitome of game design "mass appeal" in the same way the McDonald's is the mass appeal of food and Justin Bieber is the mass appeal of music. It never seems to turn out so well.

Having said that, the art style didn't seem to give me nightmares or remind me enough of WoW to push me away from the genre, but then again I never played WoW all that much either so meh. I'm just glad they didn't copy the LoL art style again.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on March 16, 2014, 09:14:51 AM
As far as gameplay goes, I absolutely see this as an alternative for people who just cannot stomach the intense strategy and skill needed to play "real" MOBAs such as DotA2, LoL, Smite etc. Heck, even Smite is a "dumbed down" version of DotA2, so why not? If you can be more casual than DotA2, why not be more casual than Smite? There is always a player base that simply doesn't want to bother with the skillcap, hence why I play Smite. Therefore there must be people who don't want to bother with Smite and they can play HotS.


It just didn't interest me at all one bit. But that's more due to the traditional isometric MOBA-perspective control style than anything else. I just can't stand it.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on March 16, 2014, 01:38:53 PM
As far as gameplay goes, I absolutely see this as an alternative for people who just cannot stomach the intense strategy and skill needed to play "real" MOBAs such as DotA2, LoL, Smite etc. Heck, even Smite is a "dumbed down" version of DotA2, so why not? If you can be more casual than DotA2, why not be more casual than Smite? There is always a player base that simply doesn't want to bother with the skillcap, hence why I play Smite. Therefore there must be people who don't want to bother with Smite and they can play HotS.


It just didn't interest me at all one bit. But that's more due to the traditional isometric MOBA-perspective control style than anything else. I just can't stand it.
Concerning the "dumbing down" of games:

In some ways, I agree with what you're saying. The mechanics of many MOBAs after DotA serve to reduce the complexity of the original game in order to make it easier for the casual player. However, in some cases, the changing or removal of mechanics does not make it "easier", but different.

Can you honestly say that Checkers is just a "dumbed down" version of Chess? It's indirectly true I suppose, they certainly have a lot in common. However Checkers has many different mechanics than Chess, and therefore also requires a different way of playing.

The same goes for DotA to LoL or LoL to Smite. I personally think that Smite is a more complex version of League of Legends (due to the addition of new buffs, more choices, and of course a 3rd dimension), but it's also true that Smite is slightly different than League as well.

In the same way, Heroes of the Storm may have less complexity than LoL, but I'm not sure it necessarily makes it any less skill-based. Complexity can be a bad thing when it is unnecessary or simply a burden to the player. Removing gold and items from the game doesn't necessarily make it less skill-based if those gaps are filled with new options in strategy and battle. In addition, the dynamic "map events" add a whole new mechanic to the game that isn't even present in the other classical MOBA maps.

At this point, I believe it's too early to tell how "skill-based" HotS will be compared to the other MOBAs. If they can achieve a higher skill cap with a lower complexity, I'd be very impressed.

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on March 16, 2014, 02:02:04 PM
As far as gameplay goes, I absolutely see this as an alternative for people who just cannot stomach the intense strategy and skill needed to play "real" MOBAs


I haven't heard one person talk about the intense strategy and skill needed.  :D


Being a team game, a lot of the individual skill lies behind 20% of the total skill contribution possible.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on March 16, 2014, 02:58:34 PM
As far as gameplay goes, I absolutely see this as an alternative for people who just cannot stomach the intense strategy and skill needed to play "real" MOBAs


I haven't heard one person talk about the intense strategy and skill needed.  :D


Being a team game, a lot of the individual skill lies behind 20% of the total skill contribution possible.
I was more referring to the "team based coordination"-skill here though ;)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on March 20, 2014, 12:57:24 AM
Just got finished watching Valve's free documentary, Free to Play. Overall I was really impressed. It shows the evolving world of E-Sports in the U.S. and abroad. It showcases some of the sacrifices these players have to make in order to simply get a chance at being the best. It also portrays the growing popularity of MOBAs on the world stage, though this one focuses specifically on DotA. It's pretty interesting if you're into this kind of thing.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Cyborg on March 30, 2014, 12:38:42 PM
I'm checking in with this thread just to let you know that the Team Builder league of legends feature is live, and it's awesome. I haven't had one single game turn into an argument or temper tantrum about which lane and who is doing what. It's been the most pleasant experience I've ever had playing this game.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on March 31, 2014, 08:21:20 AM
I'm checking in with this thread just to let you know that the Team Builder league of legends feature is live, and it's awesome. I haven't had one single game turn into an argument or temper tantrum about which lane and who is doing what. It's been the most pleasant experience I've ever had playing this game.


....about bloody time!   I hadnt even heard of such a thing until you just now mentioned it.... I tend not to be very good at following current news for things.... but that's exactly the sort of thing I'd wanted to see in this.   I haaaaaaaaaaate role/position arguements in any of these games.

Now if only the others would do this.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on April 08, 2014, 09:10:42 AM
Finally I have gotten a beta key for Strife.  Using the same name there as I am here.

I shall be trying it out later today, methinks.  Been looking forward to this one. 


I also have four additional keys if anyone should want one.  Nobody I know would be interested in this genre, so I dont need the extras.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on April 08, 2014, 05:04:56 PM
Oh oh me please. I have a friend who desperately wants to play with me but can't due to the slow speed in which they're handing out keys at the moment.

I would owe you one.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on April 08, 2014, 07:47:50 PM
Sent.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on April 09, 2014, 01:31:44 AM
Well, interesting game so far, at least from what I've seen up to this point.  Only done the tutorial and the bot match, so still much to learn.  Used the super cat, because super cat.  His moveset entertains me.

Game mechanics overall seem pretty basic and easy to understand, combat is fun, the last-hitting-from-anybody mechanic is bloody brilliant;  I so badly wish the other mobas would do this, but only Dawngate has done something similar (which is just as brilliant), the others all seem content to just copy Dota or League's way of doing it.  Which is annoying.  Personal couriers are a happy thing.  I dont yet understand the funky crafting mechanic done outside of matches.

Overall, a very positive experience so far.  Next up is to see how easy or not it is to get a match during the middle of the night.

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on April 09, 2014, 10:06:58 AM
In my experience the matches happen almost instantly. The MM system is actually really awesome, letting you choose your character before the game even begins and putting you into the game within seconds.

Though I guess League has recently added something like this as well, and kudos to them for it.

Thank you for the key, sorry it took me a bit to respond. Life has been so freaking hectic with finals and such.

If you like the game, let me know. We'll add each other and play sometime.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on May 07, 2014, 04:19:17 AM
So, getting back into some multiplayer stuffs lately, after the "ZOMG GOTTA TEST TLF!!! MUST....STOP....BUGS!!!" frenzy is now over.  Though, maybe not the best time to focus on this, with the #)%&-ing weather not choosing a damn theme and sticking with it (agh the pain).

But, started messing around with Strife some more.... just bot matches for now, I prefer to know alot more than I do before I jump into normal matches, not to mention try a bunch of different characters.   I'd like to not be a TOTAL liability to teams that I end up on, after all.

Ahh, this one really is fun so far though.  I love the combat, it's chaotic and exciting. Definitely no qualms there.  Most things are easy enough to understand, even if I havent the foggiest clue what most of the items do... gonna take awhile for me to get any of that memorized, always does in any sort of game, really.

The lack of last-hitting obsession definitely helps alot.  I find myself still ending up doing plenty of it, way more than I do in Dawngate, but it's not hyper-aggravating in this one, and I can use spells to help it along.... the fact that Dota doesnt really let me do that is one of the things that bugged me the most.   Laning phase is good too, alot of back-and-forth harassment going on, I always like that aspect.

I also notice that the bots will, you know, DO stuff.  As opposed to clumping into a big permanent heap, and just wandering randomly that way, which seems to be a common theme in bot practice modes for this genre.  Even just doing the bot matches for now is fun and challenging, so that helps alot.  Granted, there was one moment where the team was concentrating on taking down that boss thing to summon Gigantor or whatever his name is, and then they all suddenly decided "OK, DONE NOW" and left me there (I finished the damn thing off with like ONE health point left), but other than that nothing overly derpy has occurred yet in practice, so I'm not yelling at the screen as much as I usually do when dealing with bot practice in a multiplayer game.

Much to learn yet of course, but it's good.  Definitely good.


Though there is the ever-persistent problem of having to really watch how much time I spend using the blasted mouse, lest my arm flare up, which is at it's worst during this season (argh).  But it's proving very enjoyable either way.

Here's hoping people will actually be willing to TRY this one first, instead of just bashing it because it's "dumbed down", or some gibberish like that.   I think it's really got all of the necessary bits of moba-ness working well and has enough complexity in it's own right.

I'm guessing it's still gonna be awhile before release though, but I look forward to seeing how this one evolves.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on May 08, 2014, 09:54:06 PM
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/dota-2-players-now-outnumber-world-of-warcraft-subscribers/1100-6419431/
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on May 09, 2014, 12:17:08 AM
Feh, somehow that doesnt surprise me.

Now if only they had less of a huge percentage of that group being absolute jerks.  I'm doubting THAT will happen though.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on May 09, 2014, 05:56:02 AM
Feh, somehow that doesnt surprise me.

Now if only they had less of a huge percentage of that group being absolute jerks.  I'm doubting THAT will happen though.
Nope.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on May 13, 2014, 02:17:33 PM
http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/05/13/dota-2s-compendium-helps-the-international-2014-prize-pool-break-4-million/

Each Compendium (price $10) adds $2.50 to the prize pool of The International 4. The prize pool for the players starts out at an impressive 1.6 million. Last year, the pool was raised to a sizeable 2.8 million, not a bad price increase using 2 dollar and 50 cent increments. That was after about ~3 months of selling Compendiums.

Now, Valve has introduced stretch goals, and within 4 days, the prize pool has reached 4 million...That's in FOUR DAYS.

The biggest prize happens at 6 million. When I first saw that number, I was kind of amazed that Valve would even shoot so high (even if it was just wishful thinking). After the first night the new Compendium (http://www.dota2.com/international/compendium/) was released, I asked the players in my games whether anyone thought it would actually make it there. Everyone kind of scoffed, nobody thought it would.

Now, it's almost guaranteed to hit 6 million, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that will make it the biggest, most financially rewarding E-Sports event ever.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on May 19, 2014, 05:16:35 PM
In less than 2 weeks, The International 4 Tournament prize pool has been increased to over 5.9 million. With over 2 months left before the International even occurs and with the 6 million dollar stretch goal about to become an imminent reality, who knows how high it can go?

All I know is, this is going to be an EPIC tournament and even the 3-4th place winners are going home practically rich.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on May 20, 2014, 01:31:04 AM
In less than 2 weeks, The International 4 Tournament prize pool has been increased to over 5.9 million. With over 2 months left before the International even occurs and with the 6 million dollar stretch goal about to become an imminent reality, who knows how high it can go?

All I know is, this is going to be an EPIC tournament and even the 3-4th place winners are going home practically rich.


Waaaaayyyyyyyyyyy too much money.


While the skill of players like that in this genre is very impressive, the thing that gets me even more is that they can tolerate the stress.  I'd have gone insane by now, were it me doing that.  Couldnt handle the pressure with that, definitely not. 

Not sure wether I'm gonna follow any of the tournament or not, but yeah, it's probably quite the spectacle to see.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on May 21, 2014, 06:38:47 AM
http://www.dota2.com/international/compendium/

The stretch goals have been increased to the 10 million dollar mark. With 3 months left to go, why the hell not? Apparently the sky is the limit.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on May 29, 2014, 05:07:04 AM
What exactly does this compendium thing even do?  I dont understand it's purpose.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on May 29, 2014, 06:33:40 AM
Well for one thing, by buying a compendium, you get access to all these stretch goals (http://www.dota2.com/international/compendium/), which are some awesome in-game things like HUDs, couriers, and even a new music soundtrack with much more to come.

Secondly, there are all kinds of cosmetic benefits that player gets by owning the compendium such as a custom fountain healing animation, custom teleport animation, custom blink animation, and so on. In addition to that, the player gets all kinds of items basically just for owning one, but by "leveling it up" can get even more. They also added a new feature which more or less allows you to "trade in" old items that you don't want anymore (that you may have won from battles or whatnot) which will allow you to receive new and better items and other bonuses in return.

By trading in a ton of old items that I've had for years which I was never going to use, I received a mythical set for Rubick that I sold for about $15 on the Steam market. In other words, before the vast majority of the prizes have even been handed out, I've already profited off of having the thing.

At its core though, just ignoring all the awesome features and gadgets that go along with it, the Compendium is just an advanced guide to The International 4 tournament. It has a list of all the teams, the players, pictures of the players, the roles they play, the heroes they play, and so on. It gives detailed information about dates, brackets, tournament standings, and so on.

(http://i.imgur.com/OBIGzVg.jpg)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on May 29, 2014, 10:17:27 AM
Wow.

I gotta hand it to Valve:  Those guys have absolutely mastered the art of hyping things.... usually things that deserve it in their case.... and more importantly the art of sales and advertising, which is something I tend to know alot about, so that makes me respect them even more. 

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on June 01, 2014, 09:51:12 AM
We just broke 8 million. Will most likely reach the 10 million dollar stretch goal within the next week or two. The only question now is, will they add even more stretch goals after that? How high can this thing go?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on June 02, 2014, 02:36:13 AM
waaaaayyyyyyy too much for a gaming event by my view.   Though, I'm not the sort to understand the appeal of the compendium either.  Some concepts are difficult for me to grasp, and that thing has those.   I understand the advertising technique around it, at least.

Part of it though is also just a lack of interest in the event.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on June 02, 2014, 08:09:01 AM
It's understandable, if you're not a DotA player, watching a DotA tournament would probably be quite boring to you.

I'm not a League player but I spend a lot of time watching streams on Twitch, and LoL streams (such as tournaments) are some of the most popular. Sometimes when I'm bored and there's nothing else to watch I'll pop into one of the tournament streams and I'm just bored to tears. I think maybe if the game interested me more I'd probably be more excited about how the game was progressing or which team was going to win the tournament but I just can't bring myself to care.

Obviously everyone has their different reasons for why they choose one MOBA over the other. Often times it really just depends on which MOBA you began with because that's the one you're used to and most comfortable with and so you'll stick with that one.

Sure DotA has a lot of kind of silly mechanics and unintuitive design and a learning curve which could probably make a violin player smash his oak instrument into the monitor screen, but once you get past that, I find that the depth and player potential is vastly superior to any of the others.

Just the other day, I was playing League with a friend because she asked me to. She wanted to support and for me to play the carry. So having not played much within the past year or so, I just picked up Ashe. Most of the game was pretty boring, we won our lane handily, there was some harassment going on, some positioning here and there, and tons of last hitting. However nothing really got interesting until I hit 6, when I could start making plays with Enchanted Crystal Arrow. I have this thing like what, every 100 seconds at level 1? It's a nice stun, it's got a huge range, and does decent damage etc. However, while using Ashe I realized how bored to tears I was.

Then, in the process of playing Ashe with my mind going blank, I realized how similar her ult was to the regular skill of a DotA hero. Mirana has an ability, that she can get at LEVEL ONE, which stuns up to 5 seconds, has a huge range, and has a 17 second cooldown instead of 100? I mean sure, Ashe's arrow is mapwide, but it doesn't even stun as long! At max range it stuns for 3 seconds. At max range PotM's arrow stuns for 5 seconds, and I can use it from level 1, every 17 seconds, for 100 mana, and it's basically the same skill in almost every way except better.

Playing League is like nerfing myself. I get a better Ashe ult at level 1, that doesn't even include what all the other skills do. Oh what, Ashe gets Flash she can use every 300 seconds and Ghost she can use every 180? Impressive. Mirana gets a built in Flash + Ghost except with a much longer range and an 18 second cooldown instead of 5 minutes. Ashe also doesn't get a 300 damage aoe nuke which can also deal 525 damage to a single target. Ashe also doesn't get a global ultimate which makes her entire team INVISIBLE for 75 mana.

There is basically no advantage of Ashe over Mirana. I know it's a different game with slightly different mechanics, and I know that all the heroes in League are just as weak as Ashe in different ways while all the heroes in DotA are as powerful as Mirana in different ways, but that's the whole point. With Mirana I can do so much more, and have such a higher impact on the game, than I ever could as Ashe. Ashe has slowing arrows you say? Mirana can buy items which slow the target just as much or more as Ashe's arrows do without even using mana.

For me at least, that's why DotA is so much more interesting to me. I'm watching a game full of Miranas, not Ashes.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on June 02, 2014, 08:57:09 AM
Eh, my problems with Dota arent just in the "mechanics dont make sense" department, as I've never had trouble understanding complicated-as-hell games (I wouldnt be into Arcen's games if that were the case, hah!) but are  partly due to the slower pacing of certain things, combined with the faster pacing of others.  Laning, for instance, is dirt-freakin'-slow.   Of all of the mobas I've tried, it is by far the most boring in this game compared to all of the others, regardless of strategy involved.  Now, part of this is just me:  I have the attention span and patience of something that cant be bothered to finish this analogy.  If nothing is exploding or firing deathrays or summoning ghosts or monkeys or something, I'm probably getting restless and losing interest.  The laning phase of Dota, when ganks and such are not happening, tend to be JUST last-hitting.  There's little back and forth between opposing players in each lane, which tends to bother me.  All of the other mobas pull that one off, so they keep my interest a bit better.  The full combat, when it happens in Dota, tends to be over too fast, due to the extreme lethality of spells and such.... so there's lots of slow periods between the really short exciting periods.   The more drawn out combat of the other games keeps my interest easier as the chaos extends longer.   Depth of mechanics and such is great and all, but in my case it matters little if my attention is wandering.

I'm like this with pretty much any genre.  The most competetive type of game I play, and the genre I'm best at, is fighting games, and in those I'm either going absolutely batshit berserk, or I'm probably bored. Which also means I dont play the slower ones much, such as Capcom's fighters, preferring things like Arc's games (Guilty Gear, Blazblue, Persona) instead.  Also have a rather warped sense of what counts as slow or fast when it comes to.... basically anything.  Most things are too slow, as far as I'm concerned.  So that doesnt tend to help much with the moba genre in a general sense.


Not to mention the blasted last-hitting.  Dawngate and Strife (for what I've been able to play of them so far anyway, bah) are becoming my favorites partly due to their de-focus on the last-hit mechanic.   Sure as heck aint the only reason, but it helps ALOT.  League I like but it keeps it in a bit too much compared to the others.  Though, in that one I can use spells/skills to last-hit, so that's more interesting/faster, though that can be done in those two as well.

I will say though that League tends not to have enough of "leave lane to do stuff" moments (specifically, leaving lane to do stuff that isnt warding.  There's enough of THAT in there.)  That's something I notice about it alot.  All of the other ones I've tried do that aspect quite a bit better.  That's probably the main downside to League for me:  it's exciting enough I suppose, but too easy to get stuck in a rut when it's not time for a full teamfight.



As for tournaments themselves..... yeah, the patience and attention-span bit.  Watching an individual match, when I'm in the mood, can be very entertaining.  But following the event overall?  No.  And it depends on the genre also.... mobas tend to be easy to watch when I'm feeling patient, or what I call "patient" anyway.  They're complicated and stuff keeps happening.  Fighting games, my favorite genre, tend to bore the heck outta me in tournaments as the players involved are likely using tactics that I find dull.   And the wait between matches though.... that's the worst part.  Ugh.  Cant do that.   Or scheduling, knowing that such and such match will be at such and such time, for the longer tourneys like the International is.  Yeah, cant do that.  I can barely schedule my daily routine as it is.... it's a good thing I dont work, because I *would* manage to be late every single day.



Still, I can understand the appeal of an overall giant tourney for anyone that is into the game in question and enjoys spectating alot.  Tends to be quite alot to be had at such events.

I've forgotten whatever else I was going to say, which works out well enough I suppose.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on June 15, 2014, 04:27:07 AM
http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/19561/article/league-of-legends-player-who-made-terrorist-threats-facing-10-years-in-prison/?utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_121608

LOL
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on June 15, 2014, 06:03:14 AM
The sad thing is, as braindead as that idiot is for doing that, the moba communities in general likely contain plenty that are even dumber.   The sort that make a house plant look like a genius.


EDIT:  Okay, it actually gets even stupider if you then read some of the comments people have made.  I really must stop doing that.  Pretty sure I lost some IQ points by reading those. 
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on June 15, 2014, 07:07:22 AM
Concerning what you said about DotA earlier, I agree with you to some extent. Some of the mechanics are incredibly frustrating, unintuitive, and downright boring. In many ways it's like a chess game, in which all of the major pieces have a mind of their own.

In terms of the slowness of the laning phase, I think that's something which just improves with experience. Of course by experience, I mean hundreds or thousands of hours of play time. I've been playing for nearly 11 years now, and I'm just recently discovering new and awesome things that I've never done before.

For example, in many games, I'll opt to skip the laning phase completely. What do I mean? I mean I can literally roam around the map from level 1 as a certain hero (usually Vengeful Spirit when I do it) and simply gain almost all of my gold and experience from kills alone, while helping my allies immensely. Name another MOBA where this is possible.

Now do classical, boring lanes exist in DotA 2? Absolutely. That doesn't mean you have to use them. I basically refuse to play in that fashion anymore because I agree, it's boring. But that's the awesome thing about DotA, it allows you to innovate and try anything you want to. There *is* no set lane setup, it's not like League where all the roles/positions have to be the same 99% of the time. Tri-lane, dual lane, solo lane, roamer, jungle, even abandoning a lane altogether to push towers quickly, or any combination of the above. DotA to me is amazing because it belongs to the innovators. The people who try new things and change the game or throw their opponents off balance by presenting them with something they'd never expect, those are the true masters of the game.

I agree with you, classical laning is DotA is awful, so I stopped doing it. When playing with my friends we do funny or interesting combinations which either results in us killing them over and over or losing the game within 20 minutes. Either result is better than falling asleep at the keyboard. Sure, there is certainly a place for those who like to play in a traditional style, but also an option for those who like to try insane new things as well (like creep skipping, or in other words going behind an enemy's first outer tower and killing the creep waves before they hit the lane. Yes, this actually works).

Granted, being able to come up with interesting and innovative new strategies requires a certain level of experience and understanding of the game. To those who haven't played it very much, I'm sure it probably seems like an inferior "whatever MOBA you're coming from" that includes silly mechanics like denying, creep pulling, and losing gold on death, etc. However, stick with it long enough and you begin to have these epiphanies which completely change your perspective on what the game, or even what any MOBA, actually is. I can take my DotA skills to any other MOBA and apply them there, but I can't take what I've learned from other MOBAs and apply them to DotA, because quite frankly I haven't learned anything. They've only simplified the formula and made it more streamlined, they haven't added any nuance or complexity to the game.

Ultimately complexity is what enables innovation, this is why you'll never be able to innovate as much in Checkers as you will in Chess, and you'll never be able to innovate as much in Chess as you will in Starcraft, etc. etc. It doesn't work in reverse. You can't create a simpler Chess with more innovation. You can create a simpler Chess that appeals to more players, as simplicity often does, and while that may make it more 'fun', it also creates limitations.

Having said that, of all the MOBAs I've tried, I think Strife is the best alternative to DotA 2. Often people cite League as being better because it's simpler, more streamlined, more accessible to new players, more intuitive, and removes a lot of the silly mechanics which exist in DotA simply because they evolved to be there. Strife does all of that, even better. It's even simpler than LoL, more streamlined, more accessible to new players, more intuitive, and removes some of the silly mechanics that even League copied over. For example, in Strife, one never needs to return to town for anything. The laning phase is actually more exciting in Strife as well because, well A. No Flash. That in itself is a 10,000% improvement. However, the out-of-combat regen allows the mechanics to let players throw spells and attacks at each other willy nilly, engaging in skirmishes constantly which would typically force one side or the other to have to go back to town sooner or later, creating a noticeable lull in the action at some point. None of this is necessary in Strife. In addition, the ability to share last hit gold means that one player literally can devote all his attention to harassing with almost no drawback whatsoever.

In addition, it's more objective-based. It removes warding (which, in addition the shared last hit mechanics, effectively means supports have been removed from the game) and allows you to play and build your character however you like according to the situation, instead of falling into a cookie-cutter role which never changes from game to game. It's also more balanced and fair to the player because all the heroes are unlocked right from the start.

That's just my opinion though, but if we're choosing between *ultimate fun and accessibility* and *ultimate competitive value*, I don't see much middle-ground. I still haven't tried Dawngate, I need to. Some of the mechanics seemed interesting there as well, such as the "role picker" at the beginning of the game. But once again, I'd like to think that as the genre evolves, we'd be getting further away from these solidified, unchanging roles, not more reliant on them.



Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on June 16, 2014, 12:32:55 AM
Hmm, some well-put stuff there.  In particular I agree about the damn Flash thing.  Badly thought out ability, that.  They may as well just build it directly into the UI as an "always there" thing.  I dont use it myself, I just utterly refuse to.  If teammates dont like that, well... tough.  As always for me I'll bloody well do as I want.


That all being said, I still typically dont consider Dota to usually be more nuanced or whatever than much of the genre.  This isnt really counting League.... the more I play and watch the other mobas, the more I see them taking Leagues often-simple ideas and going alot further with them.  Less of the cookie-cutter, more of the "million ways to do things".  I still like League, but yeah, it has that to some extent.  Soraka, for instance, a support I tend to use, will never be a nuker or whatever.... pure support and cannot really be anything else.   Wheras something like Dawngate doesnt really have that.... Zeri, my favorite one so far, who is classified as a support, can be built in a great many ways.   I generally use her as support, mostly because as always so many players just dont want to do that sort of role, so I do it myself (sigh), but I can also build her as a tank, or a nuker/ganker, if I want to.   And it can be done in a way that isnt really obtuse, which happens in some games;  even I, being still new to much of the genre, can spot just how to do this and will mess around with that idea from time to time.   ....of course, then I still get lane partners that fall to their own idiot mistakes, so inevitably I go back to support so I can rescue them from their own badly-thought-out charges and such.   But still, the game is like that.  "Break the Meta" is their going idea for the game, and they're doing a pretty good job of it so far.

Though, if you DO try that, keep in mind that it's still in beta (and likely will be for awhile yet) so there's still alot for the devs to do, including much balancing.  Expect some things to be quite lopsided or just outright messed up.  They even pulled a Smite once where they changed the entire map around because too many constant "trends" were appearing.  So yeah, expect that sort of thing.


Oh, and I dont think I explained the roles thing very well.  There are, actually, only four of them.  They're not meant to lock people into very specific, ACTUAL roles like nuker, ganker, carry, whatever.  What they do is alter things to cater towards overall style.  I use the Tactician role most of the time, which allows me to not have to worry about last hits, but instead I can gain gold by constantly pestering and poking at my lane opponents (and this of course also counts during team fights and such).  Great for a support, but has plenty of other uses.  Even playing it as a carry.... there's a "role" that works well for carries, increasing the gold per last hit, and a couple of other effects, but a carry could use Tactician as well.... allowing them to play a very offensive style, often sacrificing last hits for chances to knock some health off of opponents without really losing gold, in addition to keeping gold gain during team fights.   These things aint perfectly balanced yet.... the jungler-ish one is waaaaayyyyyyy too static and is bloody useless outside of jungling, but that's the general idea.  They dont want people to be wedged into specific spots all the time simply based on unchanging characters.  Which seems to be something Strife is going for as well, which I like.


....I've totally forgotten where I was going with this.  It'll come to me eventually.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on July 01, 2014, 04:03:08 AM
.....when in the heck did Dota get an unranked mode???

Damn quirky as the mechanics can be, the lack of unranked was probably the core reason I stopped, since I tend to haaaaaaaaate playing ranked in pretty much any game before I feel I'm ready (which typically takes awhile).   So far in other mobas and other types of online games, I also find that there's alot less screaming in unranked modes since there's no rank to screw up.

As it is, I only just now heard about this.

This being the case I might give it another go.


....as soon as my arm stops feeling like someone jumped up and down on it, anyway.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on July 07, 2014, 02:26:21 AM
Quote
.....when in the heck did Dota get an unranked mode???
You may be confused. DotA always *had* unranked mode.

They added ranked mode later, but for the longest time, it was impossible for anyone to check your stats, or for you to know your "MMR" or anything like that. Though I guess with the addition of the "official" ranked mode, many of the tryhards have begun to avoid unranked.

If you play again, I suggest you totally throw out your typical MOBA "training" and start doing some crazy unorthodox things until you learn what makes the game *fun* for you.

For example, pick a roaming hero such as Vengeful Spirit, Mirana, Venomancer (and many others) and don't lane at all...Simply roam around the map from level 1 looking to set up a kill for first blood. Go the lane where the enemies are easiest to kill and simply shut down your opponents so hard that you win the game from the beginning.

Pick a megapushing hero such as Leshrac, Rhasta or Death Prophet and just ignore the game and push towers down like absolute mad giving your team so much gold that you win by proxy.

Find a friend and develop "gay lanes", aka wombo combo lanes, aka "death lanes" that allow you to kill your opponents over and over again until they just leave the lane (or the game) and never come back. Lina + Sven, Crystal Maiden + Juggernaught, Dazzle + Slardar, Mirana + Shadow Demon, Bristleback + Venomancer, the list goes on and on and on. Be creative. It's usually helpful to have one ranged and one melee because it translates well into the rest of the game.

Pick a jungler such as Ursa, Lycan, or Furion and learn how to do Rosh at like 10 minutes into the game. This almost guarantees victory against an inexperienced team because it gives your whole team the gold of a tower, gives you ~2 levels of experience instantly, and resurrection. Usually people aren't checking for it either and you can't ward against it.

*USE SMOKE* For 100 gold you and your team gets complete and utter invisibility (can't even be detected with "true sight") for 45 seconds, plus 15% movespeed and you can still use your invisibility without breaking it all until you get within a short range of an enemy or tower. This is a game-changing item that most people don't even use, especially at lower levels. It's like a guaranteed kill against inexperienced players for 100 gold. Totally worth it.

In other words, get outside your comfort zone, WAYYYYYY outside your comfort zone. Force yourself to play in atypical ways until you find something that works for you that isn't sitting in a lane and last hitting. Once you realize how much diversity and potential for dynamic playstyles the game offers, you might start to appreciate it.

By the way, The International now has its own website and will be including 6 streams (which I think is absolutely awesome) during the tournament: http://www.dota2.com/international/overview/

4 for simultaneous games all happening at once.

1 for recaps of the most awesome moments of the games all happening at once and a synopsis of how the tournament is going so far.

Finally, 1 for new players, a newbie stream which explains basic mechanics in plain English for those who are unfamiliar with the game!
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on July 07, 2014, 10:07:45 PM
The unranked thing, my problem was that there was just one mode... no differentiation between the two.  With them split, indeed the tryhard types will hopefully tend to flock towards the "ranked" one, as they do in League and other games.  That's generally how I deal with League's legendarily terrible community, is that I stick to unranked.... people there are muuuuuuuuch less angry, and will often go there just to have fun, or to experiment, since it's not screwing up anyone's ranking.

With that split now.... my core problem with the game has been removed.


As for trying out stuff in Dota here.... yeah, my whole issue with that one was that players tend to flip the hell out if I tried something out that wasnt the "proper" way to play it.  Might be less with the mode split, but still, that was always the reason for it. 
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on July 08, 2014, 12:13:12 AM
Yeah, nowadays if someone gives you flak for trying something new or unorthodox, you can now respond "relax it's unranked" which is typically the catch all stfu you try hard we're attempting to have fun. If the complaining continues the mute button is always available.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Misery on July 16, 2014, 03:51:26 AM
So, jumped into one of these today finally, after a long delay due to pain during winter/spring.... therapy has been helping alot with that.  I'm not even achy yet, for once, but still only did one game for the night so as not to push it.

I figure I'll probably alternate between LoL and Dota, playing Dawngate or Strife when I'm feeling patient enough to deal with the late-night queues on them (argh, closed betas and their long wait times...).

Today was League (I flipped a coin to decide, hah) and of course VERY FIRST MATCH in awhile and BAM, instant rager.  This despite the unholy stomping that the other team was being hit by (end score was 68 to 9.... I dont even know, I really dont.  I just heal and support). Yet still this guy was yelling at everyone on the team that wasnt me.  Which seems to often be the case, though I figure that's because it's not very bright to yell at the supports, them being the ones that keep you from being dead.   Still, holy heck this guy was angry. I wasnt expecting to have to report anyone THAT fast.

Tomorrow I'll go at Dota, and we'll see if I get wacky ragers in there!  At least they're sometimes good for comedic value, if nothing else.   They're always rather distracting, though.   
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on July 16, 2014, 03:48:18 PM
Let me know how it goes. Add me on Steam (Wingflier) even and I'll play one with you.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on September 16, 2014, 10:33:32 AM
I generally enjoy DotA more than LoL because of its competitive nature, but after being stuck on 1 map for 10+ years, I have to hand it to Riot for constantly coming up with new ideas and trying new things.

This Ascension (http://promo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/shurima/game-mode/) mode looks absolutely bad a**. 
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on September 16, 2014, 12:02:37 PM
http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/19561/article/league-of-legends-player-who-made-terrorist-threats-facing-10-years-in-prison/?utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_121608

LOL

And that would solve nothing for the kid to go to prison. I know you linked this months ago but that would be an unrealistic punishment to the crime committed. If anything, I'd like to see him sentenced to counseling and lots of mandatory community service. Maybe even a ban on playing MOBAs for a long time too but I'm not sure how that would be controlled. Idk, anything besides making him another prison case. Teenagers say a lot of stupid things without true meaning behind it and while he certainly made some really stupid statements, it doesn't justify prison time if he had no intention of doing what he said. Yea, country is really gunshy around those comments with latest events...
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on September 16, 2014, 08:35:10 PM
I'm not convinced the modern prison system accomplishes anything productive anyway, especially in terms of rehabilitating "criminals" or making society a safer place. The corporate privatization of the prison system has turned "the justice system"  into a circus where we're actually trying to find reasons to throw people in jail. I think every study on the subject has shown that rehabilitation works vastly better than punishment, so I'm inclined to agree with you, especially in this case.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on September 17, 2014, 03:16:46 PM
(http://cdn0.gamesports.net/storage/55000/55023.jpg)

Don't know if anybody is interested, but this was one of the best DotA games I've ever seen in my life.

Team Virtus.Pro (Russian) vs. Team Secret (European) in an ultra heated 3rd game that is one which will live on in the history books.

Team Secret's Ursa displayed an absolutely dominating performance, thanks in large part due to the help of a legendary Wisp, going 12-0 by the 11 minute mark. At this point, he had literally set a record for the most kills in a professional game in the shortest amount of time. Not only had he set a new record, he had absolutely blown the previous record away.

A few minutes later, at 14-1, Ursa had finished the quickest Heart of Tarrasque ever. At this point, the game's score was 18-4, and for all intents and purposes, it should have been over...except that it wasn't.

Virtus.pro won a crucial battle at the Roshan pit, took the aegis, and just like that they were back in the game. I won't tell you what happens next, but the game itself was a 50 minute knockdown drag out fight. You might want to pause it to use the restroom or to give yourself a break because I promise you the action won't.

For the people who claim that battles in DotA are just twitch-scenarios in which every person blows up and are over within seconds, I challenge you to watch this. There were battles that lasted for practically 5 minutes with both sides continually healing, kiting, and saving their players over and over, fighting tooth and nail for every precious kill. I love this metagame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZEFArk5tRg

Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on September 17, 2014, 10:07:15 PM
Gotta give it to Riot, this song, the animation, the theme of the video, it's all freaking perfect. Extremely well done, I hope the tournament is as hype as the advertising! <3

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/esports-event/warriors
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on September 17, 2014, 10:39:18 PM
Gotta give it to Riot, this song, the animation, the theme of the video, it's all freaking perfect. Extremely well done, I hope the tournament is as hype as the advertising! <3

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/esports-event/warriors

[FOR ANYONE WHO ANY WATCHED THIS THREAD FROM START TO FINISH, WHO WOULD HAVE THUNK? (SPELLING)]

Given just_how_bad_game_service_is_for_players (serious, my last decent game service was 2 months ago) it is incredulous LoL claims a competive nature,

For those who don't know:

For at LEAST two months, if not more, LoL has been hit been by, (no matter what standard) bad game service. There is no good explanation for how bad it has been. They claim DDOS attacks, but I know of no entity that has been crippled by this for 2 months.

Seriously, they claim DDOS for 2 months of bad gameplay play. I have not dared PvP for 2 months because of this. In game friends tell me they have won or lost based on connection status, not on their skill. It is simply sad.

For anyone new to this genre, stay far, far away from LoL unless doing bots with friends. As it is, I'm doing bot with a friend, and even then, our "fun" is hampered by bots and (no OR, AND) bad lag from the servers.

I would not recommend this game to new players, play DOTA 2, play SMITE, DON'T play THIS
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on September 17, 2014, 10:43:23 PM
Wow I hadn't heard about that. What do you think is causing it?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on September 17, 2014, 10:52:13 PM
Wow I hadn't heard about that. What do you think is causing it?

The theories are many, and have absolutely no basis. Use your imagination:

1) Valve is a James Bond-ish Villain. They are masterminds of the ultimate kind. They are destroying the opposition through ruining their game service.  By wrecking RIOT, VALVE will prove to be the ultimate MOBA genre

2) RIOT has messed with an underground MAFIA of your choice. Anything will do! Pick your favorite...!


Really, there is no reason for why RIOT servers are so bloody bad. They claimed DDOS attacks months ago...and are (as far as I know) are the only company where they have gotten WORST, not better, over time. It is so bad, there spectator streams are simply dead. Not just buggy. D-E-A-D. It is simply pathetic.

I listed only two examples above, because the situation is so extreme. Either RIOT is facing a mastermind organization, or they are the most bloody incompetent company in existence. I suspect the later. If someone had the patience to read this thread from start to finish, my statements are  even worst.

I feel bad defending this game at any time  ???

tl;dr Riot at one time finally had sanctioned streams, now they don't. How does that happen. Not by being smart, I tell you.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on September 17, 2014, 11:07:54 PM
http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4802079

Here's what they say about it on the forums.

Also here's a stream from a guy (really annoying) I've been watching for the past few minutes, he's complaining a lot about lag, but his ping keeps fluctuating from <100 to 300+, so I can see the frustration. http://www.twitch.tv/currymancer

Whatever it is, I hope they can deal with it soon. I wonder who would even be interested in orchestrating an attack like this?
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: chemical_art on September 17, 2014, 11:14:02 PM
Across the board, I've seen many streams complaining of the lag. That is how I know it isn't me who is the problem. Really, it would be more likely I_am_the_problem, but others experience it as well. That is only surefire reason I know it isn't me.

DDOS issues have been in existence since the dawn of the internet.  Any major company has dealt with it. Blizzard, EVE, runescape, (MMO of your choice which has lived) have all dealt with it. If RIOT cannot, tbey deserve to persish. I know other companies can mange.

If I did not have a stake with my girlfriend already being interested in this game, I would have switched to DOTA 2 or SMITE long ago.

As it is, if this continues for another month, I will have to anyway. I can't really play bot games in the current state.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on September 18, 2014, 10:00:26 AM
The most likely reason is probably growing pains from the NA server relocation (http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2aanfy/na_east_will_never_exist_riot_is_relocating_na/). Should they be having these types of issues? No. But their server and network requirements are massive. Should it be going on this long? No. A week of trouble, maybe. 2 months? No, too much.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 18, 2014, 10:07:25 AM
SMITE has been continously attacked by DDoS attacks for about a month now. First they were mainly aiming at NA servers, but now they seem to have aimed against EU instead. EU is, at times, almost unplayable with disconnects, login server crashes and huge lagspikes in game. Hirez is doing what they can, and overall it's better now than it has been, but sometimes the attacks get through regardless.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 18, 2014, 10:16:06 AM
Strange that a company with that kind of financial base would have that kind of sustained problem.

I can believe that an organized-crime outfit would try to DDOS-extort them, as I've seen that be tried on a bunch of other companies, but I'm not aware of any such attacks lasting more than a month (or really much more than a week) before a combination of server-side mitigation and working with law enforcement brought things back under control.

I can believe that relocating servers would be a problem, but not for two months.  At some point you just throw a lot of money (i.e. newer/more hardware) at the problem.  Though it can be trickier if the bottleneck is at the edge routing/loadbalancing or further upstream.  And even trickier if the problem is staff-related, as the process of hiring and training new staff up-to-speed can indeed take months, particularly for a highly-custom setup.

So maybe it was organized-crime DDOS's AND suborning (via swimming pools of cash, or maybe good ol fashioned blackmail) systems administration staff to effectively cripple the competence of the DDOS response?

... nah, doesn't sound particularly likely.


Maybe the organized crime outfits that specialize in DDOS's are just getting better at their work (as the SMITE situation would seem to indicate), and do it from locations where the target's law enforcement options can't really reach them.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Hearteater on September 18, 2014, 10:21:25 AM
Combine all that with people on the internet over reacting and complaining about problems that don't exist any more, and that could certainly last 2 months. I just checked with my brother who still plays LoL daily and he hasn't had any problems recently. He remembers the DDOS issues, but says they got resolved awhile ago.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 18, 2014, 10:30:08 AM
True, there's not a lot of news that can't be explained by "moderate actual increase in phenomenon" and "highly vocal reporters" :)
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on September 18, 2014, 11:02:26 AM
I haven't played LoL in awhile but I can only assume it's an intermittent problem, depending on what server you're using. I suspect, given that Riot's North American servers don't give you the specific option of your location (The US is a huge country), it automatically tries to find a closer one based on ping. I could be wrong about this, but if that were the case it would certainly explain why some people are getting hit with it when others are not.
Title: Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
Post by: Wingflier on September 24, 2014, 04:52:49 AM
Huge DotA update being released soon, super exciting! http://www.dota2.com/rekindlingsoul/

Tons of balance changes to completely shake up the current (extreme tower pushing meta) and to tweak some under/overused heroes. Two h