Moba balance comparison, please comment

[Mánagarmr]

That is impressive. As far as "fly up and become invulnerable" that's only ... you know, there are not a single hero in Smite that does that. Fly up and become CC immune? There's a few of those. Ao Kuang, Freya, Thanatos, Nu Wa and Wukong. Ne Zha, arguably. They can ALL be killed in their ultimates, just not directly targeted. DoT damage or global damage will still apply.


Wukong is generally not picked in high level play because he's a bit TOO versatile. Meaning there is always someone else that does what he does better. But he is a solid casual pick.

[Wingflier]

Dots can only be applied before they use their ults and I know of only one ability in the game that deals global damage, which by the way, also gives you near invincibility.

I think you're also missing Thor, Arachne, Apollo, Rama... There's probably more. Lets give ten heroes in the game near invincibility with their ults and make them fly up in the air becoming untargetable. It just feels really gimmicky and uninspired.

[Mánagarmr]

Dots can only be applied before they use their ults and I know of only one ability in the game that deals global damage, which by the way, also gives you near invincibility.

I think you're also missing Thor, Arachne, Apollo, Rama... There's probably more. Lets give ten heroes in the game near invincibility with their ults and make them fly up in the air becoming untargetable. It just feels really gimmicky and uninspired.

Yeah, I do forget them because they're all different even though they're all "fly away"-style ults. What are you going to complain about next: That all gods have basic attacks? :/

[Cyborg]

People obsessing over builds is part of the problem with this genre. I routinely embarrass players in these games who claim to know the meta. Especially in public matches, skill matters way more than build.

[Zebeast46]

I have not seen anyone obsess over their build honestly but I agree with your statement that the build matters less than the actual skill of the players, I normally just pick random things for my god that seem to improve at what he is good at and I actually do pretty well (note that I play at lower levels as I am only level 4)

[Mánagarmr]

People obsessing over builds is part of the problem with this genre. I routinely embarrass players in these games who claim to know the meta. Especially in public matches, skill matters way more than build.

Noticing that a build is less than suboptimal (no that's not a typo) isn't "obsessing" over builds. Obsessing is when people deviate a single item from the agreed upon "optimal" build and go haywire, harassing your teammates for not building the meta.


Commenting on that, for instance, you're building that character for autoattack damage when that character scales very badly with AA and you should build for ability damage instead, is helpful advice.

[Wingflier]

So I finally tried Heroes of the Storm. I guess I received a beta invite because suddenly I could install the game.

Anyway, I've been extremely impressed with it. There's no messing around really, you just jump right into the action without a moment's hesitation. I would go so far as to say that THERE IS no laning phase, because within minutes of the game's start, there are already map objectives which require your entire team's undivided attention. You absolutely can not play it like a regular MOBA. If you stay in one laning farming and pushing towers, You. Will. Lose.

And that's what makes the game so great. It looks, walks, and quacks like a MOBA in every way, but it upon deeper investigation, it takes the rules of the establishment and throws them right out the window. Everything you've learned you better unlearn. You can't win on your own anymore, and you can't ignore your team and objectives while you afk farm, a tactic which is the stable for carry players in well... Every other game. The fact of the matter is, this kind of behavior and activity just isn't nearly as efficient as the global map objectives such as the mercenary camps and map generated quests. Whatever you do solo just isn't as efficient as what you can, HAVE, to do with your team.

Man, it is such a refreshing break from the rewarded selfish play style of the other games. No more sitting in top lane for 20 minutes solo bruiser blah blah blah. It just isn't going to happen. And by god, it's about damn time. No more fighting over last hits and hero kills is also a nice addition, but not nearly as noticeable as the former change.

Now on the bad parts. Just as I suspected, you are completely hamstrung by your team. Double edged sword I suppose, but live as a unit, die as a unit. However, the fact of the matter is that if your team sucks or is less competent than theirs, you better just hang it up. You can't make up for their deficiencies with your superior macro or carry skills because the mechanics just don't lend themselves to those kinds of personal comebacks.

Your team can comeback, but you can't.

The game is incredibly addicting and I find myself doing something I rarely attempt in the others, the dreaded solo queue. Even losing is fun with the variety of neat and unique maps, the countless skill paths, the complete lack of a laning phase, and the short game durations which never seem to drag on much longer than 15 minutes. My initial impression of the hero designs as well has been overwhelmingly positive. Nothing seems to be off limits, and everything seems to fit quite well with a given hero's theme. If a Siege Tank deploying into Siege mode or a Zerg Queen spawning a horde of banelings is any indication, it's no holds barred. Blizzard has really outdone themselves here. This is certainly the best of the 2nd Generation MOBAs so far.

[Mick]

I'm glad to hear you like the beta. Add Mick#1457 if you want someone to group up with now and then.

I think your impressions are pretty accurate of the current state. About a patch ago, pushing lanes was a lot more viable as a strategy than it was now. Not that objectives and team play were not important, but it was balanced in a way where you had multiple paths to put pressure on the other team (and they had multiple ways to put pressure on to you). Overall, I thought it was in a good place, but the latest round of changes kinda pushed things into a deathball 5v5 or bust meta. Will this meta stick after a few more patches? The wonders of beta.

Personally, I think the push strategies were a little overnerfed, and I'd like to see those dialed back a bit. It really hurt specialist heroes, who now have to be built more or less as assassins if they don't want to let down their team. But as I said, it's beta, things change.

And I'd like to stress that push strats did NOT mean that a specialist character would solo a lane the whole time and ignore their team and objectives.

And yeah, sometimes your team just isn't going to cut it. Unfortunately, some players make that judgement call way too early. Come backs are very possible, and some team compositions really don't come into their own until later in the game, but if someone on your team gets frustrated and decides to AFK in the base, you're never going to know that.

I try to have the attitude of "well I know this team is probably not going to win it, but I'm going to spend this game practicing my techniques to prepare for the next one. I try to play my best game possible even in the face of hopeless defeat. Also, learning how to properly play "when you are behind" is a skill a lot of people need to get better with. Play more defensively, don't take stupid risks, use guerrilla tactics. At some point the other team will overextend and if you've positioned yourself well you can make them pay for that and possibly switch things around!

[Misery]

I'd wondered what you might think of this one, Wingflier.  In my opinion, this is exactly the sort of game this genre needs right now.   Not that the "traditional" mobas are at all bad.... aside from the toxic community that is.... but there's so few of these that genuinely are DIFFERENT. 

And I really do like the way that you get to interact with the ENTIRE MAP.

My issue since I'm still new is mostly not always knowing just where I should be without following teammates, particularly at the start of the match.  Though as I've mostly been doing VS CPU matches (both solo as I try to remember what everything is, which takes forever for me, and with actual players at times as well) that's fine for now. 


And you're right about the "your team can come back, but you cant".  I actually rather like that one, when I think about how it is in other mobas.  It's just not all that fun or interesting to be on a team that is entirely carried to victory by one skilled player that ends up super fed and all-powerful.  Which is something I can say about most team-based genres, really.  It's not interesting to win a first-to-50-kills match in some game because ONE player on your team of 12 got like 25 kills.  That's boring, there's no satisfaction there.

And it also means that if I do something bloody stupid in a match, which is inevitable given my general spacey nature, I dont suddenly become super underlevelled and a permanent detriment to the team. 

I have to say also that I find this game quite enjoyable to watch too, partly for the same reason there.  I dont have to watch a cringe-worthy match where the entire team is just being dragged under because one of their teammates had a very bad early-game and is underlevelled and being just eaten by the other team.  Or something like that.  Heck, I was watching one earlier, this guy playing as Tychus and doing commentary, where in the late game, his team was 3 levels below the other guys, and the other guys pushed through into their base, smashed up about 50% of the.... er.... core thing's HP.  In most other games, this would almost always be followed by a win for that team, even if they were pushed out during that particular attack.  But nope, they did a bunch of cool stuff and interesting tactics, caught up in level, and got through the defenses with a pile of mercenaries and things, and utterly wrecked the enemy base.   That, was fun to watch.


Also:  The Lost Vikings.  THE LOST VIKINGS.  I dont even need to say more than that.  Blizzard and the whole game win a million internets for that one.


On a side note... anyone had trouble getting into the game the last couple of days?  I couldnt get on at all... it kept trying to update, but it would give a message about how they "couldnt send the data" properly, which is a "" to me.  Clicking on the link that this brings up that goes to the support page just gave me a page that took a million years to NOT load.  All of the other Battle.net games are working just fine, and my internet connection isnt being wacky either, so.... yeah, I dunno what's up with that.   If there's any insights one of you might have into this, it'd be appreciated.

[madcow]

I'm glad to hear you guys are having fun with heroes of the storm. That's a game I'm definitely looking forward to as somebody that doesn't play Dota-type games. It looks fun and like it cut away most of the aspects in those games that turn me off (last hitting. Building items/complexity.  Hour long games). I'm not interested enough to drop $40 for beta access, but when it becomes free or if I manage a key I'll definetely be giving it a try.

[Wingflier]

Well, the more I continue to play HOTS, the more I continue to be impressed with it.

I have one main friend I play it with. Initially we were losing a lot, partly because of bad teams I think, but partly because we hadn't formulated a good strategy. I'd say we went on a spree of about 10 games, losing most of them, before something clicked.

Then we found something so unbelievably broken, that in every game since, we have almost never lost.

The Siege Tank (Sergeant Hammer) isn't really that popular right now. She's a "specialist", meaning her job is to deal damage to towers, usually from outside their range like all specialists. However, since apparently pushing is kind of nerfed right now, she's rarely picked. Her "siege mode", just like in Starcraft two does MASSIVE damage, and also hits in an aoe, making it ideal for prolonged teamfights, especially if she can stay at max range. This massive aoe DPS is balanced by the fact that she's completely immobile in siege mode, easily CCed, and especially the fact that there's only one of her.

Another specialist is Abathar, he's a character from SC2. Apparently he used to be brokenly overpowered, but he was nerfed at one point, and since then everyone has considered him trash and nobody ever picks him (I've never seen him in a game aside from when I play him).

However, when you put Sergeant Hammer and Abathar together, the results are impressive. In the early game, both Abathar and Hammer have mines, a lot of them actually, and in the lane you can simply mine the hell out of a bush (10+ mines easily). Hammer goes into Siege mode and starts chunking the creeps and heroes in the lane, and when the enemy heroes go into the bush to stop her BOOM, a million mines and you're absolutely dead. Easy first blood every time. Abathar has a talent which increases an allies attack speed as well, so Siege Mode + extra attack speed at level 4? Hello overpowered, the lane gets incredibly pushed, and early teamfights tend to swing in your favor, especially around objectives, because the extra attack speed, as well as a shield Abathar can provide makes the Siege Tank do massive damage. But the combo really gets disgusting at level 10. Abathar can make a copy of the Siege Tank, and then go into Siege mode himself.

2 Tanks in Siege Mode essentially means you'll never lose a teamfight again. All the enemy can possibly do is run. They simply can't stay within the huge radius of the tank shots, whole teams will get demolished. Hell, you don't even need team fights, you can just wait until the enemy team is distracted and "backdoor" a lane. Remember, you outrange towers in Siege mode. Essentially, as soon as the enemy team is distracted for A SECOND, two Siege Tanks in siege mode absolutely obliterating your base, and unless you send THE WHOLE TEAM back to stop them, you just can't. The damage is too strong, plus double widow mines and everything else. I'll usually go up closer so they focus me first, and even if I die it doesn't matter because the clone's healthbar is separate from my own, they just wasted a ton of disables and damage on a timed clone and let my friend run rampant.

It's such a hilarious wombo combo. Nobody expects it and in unranked, it can't really be countered without specific picks which they probably won't have. Even with specific picks, it requires a lot of teamwork to react to, and it's super easy for us to pull off.

Strategies like this are only possible because of the unique and interesting designs and mechanics of the heroes themselves, and that's what makes the game so good in my opinion.

[Misery]

Soooooooooo on my end, the damn #)%)&*-ing game still wont update.  Notable is the fact that all of the others will. They work just fine.

Eventually, EVENTUALLY, I finally got the glitchy-as-hell support site to load (it's taken about a week to get it to do this even once), and display what passes for an explanation as to what that particular error means.

The listed solution:  Flash may be out of date!  Update Adobe Flash!

....that's it.  I'm just done. I just cant handle that much of a derp overload. So I'm done at least for now, and probably for awhile.  I've seriously had enough of Battle.net at this point, which for quite awhile now (well over a year) I've considered to be much worse than even Origin.  I've lost any desire to go back to Hearthstone or Diablo either, for that matter.  Just.... ugh.  No more.

It's possible my mood will improve later and I'll take a swing at fixing the hideous thing, but that for me typically doesnt happen.  Usually I just exorcise the offending thing from the PC and try to forget it.

I think I'm just going back to League for now.  Even the blazing jackasses over there arent as bloody irritating as the legions of nonsensical problems I've gotten from Blizzard's damn thing during the time I've used it.


.....there, venting done, angry rant over, I now return you to your regularly scheduled topic.

[keith.lamothe]

Flash?  Wow.

Maybe someone should make a MOBA where the champs are pieces of infamous software.  Adobe would be well represented

[Misery]

Yeah, I really dont know what is with the Flash thing, or what that has to do with.... anything.   It only affected THAT game, despite it all being handled by the same launcher.  Yet that's what the support site said.

And then just.... ugh.   I dont even know anymore.  Maybe I'll mess with it tomorrow.

And that MOBA idea would be even funnier if it were actually made in Flash.  I would find this entertaining. 

[Wingflier]

So DotA is having their annual "Year Beast" Event.

http://www.dota2.com/newbloom/part4

Essentially, it plays like a normal game except that every 5 minutes or so, a giant monster spawns for both teams that travels down the lane and attacks everything in sight. But what makes it truly scary is that it has it has a complete list of special abilities that any member of your team can "pay for" which buff the beast or do some kind of global aoe effect.

The biggest benefit of playing during the event though is not the game itself (which is pretty fun), but the rewards. On my first year beast game, I received a 17 dollar DotA 2 set for winning. That's how much it's selling for on the market right now. http://steamcommunity.com/market/listings/570/Scarlet%20Quarry

So the only drawback is that the event happens at random times throughout the day, and you can only play once per "event", then you have to wait another few hours for the next one. I find it pretty fun though, gives you something to look forward to. I'm excited to play more.