Author Topic: What happens if you don't get the (AIP) memo?  (Read 36258 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: What happens if you don't get the (AIP) memo?
« Reply #210 on: June 30, 2014, 11:00:44 am »
@Peter:

- Very interesting on the waves seeming to be more frequent but same size, I would definitely need to fix that if so.

- On the reinforcement diversion to waves, yea, seems I nerfed that too hard.  That is basically the mechanic that's supposed to stop this memoless-victory nonsense ;)  But it was also throwing a major wrench in "I didn't get the memo because it was vaporized by a wall of photon lances" games, i.e. FS.  So I think I'll go with one of the things we discussed in ArnaudB's FS thread, where each Spire City redirects, say, 20% of the "reinforcement diversion" from the-next-wave to the-next-exo.
-- Edit: actually, to maintain "AIP does not increase FS exos", which I think important, perhaps it just needs to accidentally the extra reinforcements.  Or perhaps lets it actually deploy them as normal reinforcements again, since you have a pretty big hammer with which to smash them.  The idea being that it's made sufficiently paranoid about its defensive situation, etc.  Though the cap ships need a buff in that case.

- On the Prot V bug, yea, I've heard of that but keep forgetting to do something about it; on the short list now.

- In general I'm kind of wondering about whether extra HWs should increase energy 1:1 like that, but it's probably not a problem as long as the waves properly scale up, etc.

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« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 11:19:40 am by keith.lamothe »
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Offline Peter Ebbesen

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Re: What happens if you don't get the (AIP) memo?
« Reply #211 on: June 30, 2014, 11:19:47 am »
@Peter:

- Very interesting on the waves seeming to be more frequent but same size, I would definitely need to fix that if so.
Do note that I do not know which size they were supposed to be with these settings - it was more a case of "they seem to be occurring more often than with one homeworld, and I expected them to be large enough to be trouble, and they aren't, so that probably means they don't scale much in size but rather scale in frequency".

Structured testing would required to show anything definite, but I thought I'd better record my observations.


EDIT: With regards to energy, it was fun playing a game without matter converters and weird playing a game where ZPGs were almost irrelevant. Building those 3 Zenith Trader ZPGs early and then realizing that their combined output corresponded to the output of four energy collectors was humbling. :P

EDIT2: Come to think of it, rudimentary wavesize comparisons should be possible fairly easily by starting comparative 1HW and 3HW games and detonating level 2 or 3 nukes.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 11:35:28 am by Peter Ebbesen »
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Offline Peter Ebbesen

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Re: What happens if you don't get the (AIP) memo?
« Reply #212 on: June 30, 2014, 11:54:40 am »
Come to think of it, there is one energy income effect that is begging for change, now that I think of it: You've got quadratic scaling in homeworlds where economic stations are concerned!

A probably unintentional effect of the recent change to make economic stations generate energy is that currently n homeworlds give n times the number of Economic II/III stations that one homeworld does (in lines with the cap-multiplication of everything else) and additionally each individual economic station gives n times the energy each individual stations would give with one homeworld.

The result, for n=3 as in this game, was that once I built all the mark II and mark III stations I got 9 times the energy from unlocking economic stations than I would have gotten from unlocking them with one homeworld.

I suggest treating economic stations as ZPGs are treated and not multiplying their energy output by the number of homeworlds, since the number of stations available has already been thus multiplied. This ignores the issue of mark 1 economic stations, but it seems unlikely that anybody would build those in a multiple homeworld game anyhow.

Alternatively, don't multiple the station caps when going to multiple homeworlds, which also resolves the quadratic issue, but leaves the player with few stations to deploy (and it was fun to deploy numerous upgraded stations given that huge territorial control - I was able to create a highway of Logistic III stations boosted by spacetime manipulators).
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Offline Vacuity

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Re: What happens if you don't get the (AIP) memo?
« Reply #213 on: June 30, 2014, 11:59:42 am »
Perhaps a stupid question with regards to the waves being smaller than you were expecting; you said you were playing on ultra-low caps (1/4 numbers) as well as three HWs.  That would mean that in terms of ship numbers, you'd be getting 3/4s of the fleet ship numbers in any given wave compared to one homeworld and normal caps.  Are you accounting for this in your expectations?

Offline Peter Ebbesen

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Re: What happens if you don't get the (AIP) memo?
« Reply #214 on: June 30, 2014, 12:20:17 pm »
Perhaps a stupid question with regards to the waves being smaller than you were expecting; you said you were playing on ultra-low caps (1/4 numbers) as well as three HWs.  That would mean that in terms of ship numbers, you'd be getting 3/4s of the fleet ship numbers in any given wave compared to one homeworld and normal caps.  Are you accounting for this in your expectations?
Yes. Let me expand with my thinking:

See, I have now won exactly three games of AI war out of 9 started. The first one, which is the one of relevance to my expectations, was on 7.0/7.0 with normal caps and AI types that at most gave a 1.25 modifier to wavesizes according to the wiki, and in that game I reached between 600 and 700 AIP (I no longer recall the value exactly) and had regular waves of roughly size 7-11k.

I posted about it in one of my earliest posts in this forum, which caused Keith to respond something about it being outrageous and something that should never happen on difficulty 7. Shortly after that, in response to that and observations made by others, the AIP=>wave reinforcements mechanism was reduced in severity.

So this game using vanilla AIs, if Keith had not performed that change then I'd have expected a bit more (due to 7.6 AIs rather than 7.0) than 3/4*(1/1.25) times that interval at 600-700 AIP, say 4k to 7k to keep the numbers handy. Any wavesize in that range at that AIP would not have surprised me, had no change been made.

Well, I knew that the AIP=>wave reinforcement had been reduced in severity, so I expected the waves to be smaller in this game at 600-700 AIP, but I certainly didn't expect them to be as small as they were, to the degree that they didn't even reach half that size at three times that AIP!

They topped out at 1700-1800 AIP at a bit less than 2k ships - waves that, as my final test post-winning showed, could be defeated by a standard Kahuna-style turret setup with no support from forts or trader toys at all, something I had not in my wildest imaginations thought possible when I started the game.

As I thought I observed more frequent waves, I figured that perhaps I shouldn't be looking at a 3 multiplier for waves after all - perhaps the frequency increase compensated for a lower multiplication on wave strength - but even so, the final wavesizes really surprised me. Turret IVs-Vs being per-planet or not, 1700+ AIP is supposed to be tough, or so I've heard. ;)
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 12:29:23 pm by Peter Ebbesen »
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Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: What happens if you don't get the (AIP) memo?
« Reply #215 on: June 30, 2014, 01:36:56 pm »
@Peter:

- Very interesting on the waves seeming to be more frequent but same size, I would definitely need to fix that if so.

- On the reinforcement diversion to waves, yea, seems I nerfed that too hard.  That is basically the mechanic that's supposed to stop this memoless-victory nonsense ;)  But it was also throwing a major wrench in "I didn't get the memo because it was vaporized by a wall of photon lances" games, i.e. FS.  So I think I'll go with one of the things we discussed in ArnaudB's FS thread, where each Spire City redirects, say, 20% of the "reinforcement diversion" from the-next-wave to the-next-exo.
-- Edit: actually, to maintain "AIP does not increase FS exos", which I think important, perhaps it just needs to accidentally the extra reinforcements.  Or perhaps lets it actually deploy them as normal reinforcements again, since you have a pretty big hammer with which to smash them.  The idea being that it's made sufficiently paranoid about its defensive situation, etc.  Though the cap ships need a buff in that case.

- On the Prot V bug, yea, I've heard of that but keep forgetting to do something about it; on the short list now.

- In general I'm kind of wondering about whether extra HWs should increase energy 1:1 like that, but it's probably not a problem as long as the waves properly scale up, etc.

Congratulations on breaking the game over your knee, again ;)

While I agree a "What memo?" game should NOT be beatable without super weapons, I also want to point out that FS will ALWAYS be a "What memo?" due to the territory that has to be taken, even if you never go beyond 5 cities. Also, FS Exos hit like heavy artillery, because they are. So buffing the waves from massive AIP is also going to make defending in an FS game much harder. While currently your average wave doesn't do much to a fully defensive Spire City, one Hab and 5 Reactors, if you buff the waves from AIP too much its going to actually make them a major threat to Cities, which already have to deal with ever increasing Exogalactic Death Squads, even one of which can and most certainly will crush a Spire City that isn't ready.

The problem is that there isn't a lore friendly way to compensate that I can see. You can't have FS reduce AIP in anyway, because the idea is that the very thought of a Human/Spire alliance scares the crap out of the AI, that's why its the only way to have Motherships spawn. Because no other superweapon worries the AI as much. If you reduce the territory needed to build Spire Cities, it will, IMO, break the FS entirely. Being able to fit cities in a smaller area does NOT mean less AIP for FS. It means I build MORE CITIES. Right now I build my Spire Cities as follows. First shard, full defense front line base, one hab and five reactors. Second shard, behind the choke, one hab and five shipyards.  Repeat pattern until game ends. This design allows for the most possible defense, while also giving maximum number of shipyards. Assuming an even number of cities, I have 1 shipyard per reactor. And even if the main choke falls I have my other defensive points to fall back on. The only weakness to this build is how much territory it takes early on, prior to getting the fifth city up, before I get a good sized FS fleet going. I find that while a 5 shipyard fleet is powerful, its not until it hits 10+ that its really starting to just steamroll anything less than other superweapons/exo forces. That is 4 full spire cities. Given the number of planets involved that is more territory to claim/defend than pretty much any other playstyle, and thus more AIP than any other play style. An FS game is at it's weakest/most vulnerable point around the time you are setting up that 3rd-4th city, at least I have found it to be so. You may have a major chokepoint, but the exo response can be devastating and the AIP is impossible to keep on the floor, unless you are deliberately cheesing to do it. And while AIP doesn't affect FS exos, I have noticed it does seem to affect shard chases. (I do) Reducing the territory I would need take, even if you only drop it from "Must be 3 hops away" to "Must be 2 hops away", would allow me to easily keep the AIP on the floor, even without cheese. This keeps waves from being dangerous ever, 4 cities gives you so much territory for energy use, which means more defenses, and also means MUCH more K too, for even more defenses. As shard chases are less dangerous, I need to spend less K/energy on mobile forces, again leaving more for defense.

About the only buff I could see for Spire Cities, baring stat increases, (though the recent one seem rather sufficient to me) would be to allow them to be placed in one wormhole systems. It does open up some space, and could be of some impact on some maps, but completely negated on others. Thus, I'm not sure if it would be buff at all. (Though I think it should be done, if only to see what kind of impact it makes.)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: What happens if you don't get the (AIP) memo?
« Reply #216 on: June 30, 2014, 01:53:48 pm »
To clarify, I'm perfectly fine with FS going nuts with AIP and still being winnable.  That's desired.

What I view as a bug is being able to go over, say, 1500 AIP on diff 7 without FS, stay there for more than a very brief period of time (say someone is using a mkII nuke in a AI HW assault gambit and that pushes AIP into the stratosphere for the last 15 minutes of the game and they win; that's fine), and still win.  If they used some kind of super cheese (No-waves, or easy golems AND easy spirecraft and no adequate counterbalance, etc) I wouldn't worry about it any more than I would a 10/10 win under such settings, but you get the idea.
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Offline Peter Ebbesen

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Re: What happens if you don't get the (AIP) memo?
« Reply #217 on: June 30, 2014, 02:23:44 pm »
Zanewolf, what are you talking about with devastating Fallen Spire exowaves at a chokepoint at 3-4 cities? In my recently completed FS game on 9, my conclusion was that the exowaves were much too weak as they were never a threat, so long as I was willing to use my fleet to help defend against them and use warheads where appropriate (and mostly they weren't needed, but they sure were nice on occasion to smooth out the flow and prevent setbacks). The only wave that was potentially dangerous was the very first one upon completing the first hub, and a few armoured warheads in backup ensured that even if the exowave had managed to break the chokepoint, I could destroy it out of hand. The only thing that was a threat in that game - and it was a major threat - were the frequent regular AIP waves that threatened to get out of hand at high AIP, requiring the presence of my fleet to stop every wave and being harder to stop than the exowaves, which is why I went for the kill after 11 spire cities rather than trying to conquer everything.


I did propose one somewhat lore-friendly way to address this in another FS thread recently - buff the regular FS waves (at least on higher difficulties) and have each completed spire Hub reduce AIP by a certain amount (e.g. 50+(10-difficulty)*10) - handwave it away by saying that it represents the Spire's ability to interfere with the AI's smooth functioning or something, yet another reason for the AI to hate and fear the Spire but one that it cannot do anything about save by destroying the Spire wherever found.

It would still be advantageous to start out destroying all data centres, coprocessors, and taking down the superterminal before starting spire city building, of course, but if you didn't, so long as you kept building as many cities as possible for the terrain you occupied you'd keep AIP somewhat under control with the result that the Fallen Spire waves would become the primary threat and, buffed, they'd also become an actual threat rather than a mostly hypothetical one.

Keith or ArnaudB had another really good (and probably better) idea about how FS waves could again be made the major threat as they were intended to be by diverting reinforcements from AIP to exowaves rather than to regular waves depending on how many spire cities you'd built.


As for spending a lot of knowledge on mobile forces to support long shard chases and how shorter shard changes would alleviate that need, I can see we have different philosophies: I believe in destroying every AI command station on the planned shard chase route and setting up a chain of logistic stations with some turrets protecting it: The chase is over in a short time, less chase forces are therefore spawned, and the chase forces get little chance of intercepting the shard in the first place, so there's absolutely no need for a mobile force stronger than what you need to knock over the AI systems in which you set up the logistics road in the first place. If you don't want to hold the planets immediately afterwards, just destroy the stations when done and let the systems lie empty until it becomes time to expand in that area.

Fundamentally, since playing Fallen Spire one is almost per definition not going to be playing a low AIP game, why cripple one's style by playing as if it were? There's very little reason to invest anything significant in offensive forces in the early game (all of which have per-galaxy caps), and everything to gain by investing heavily in defences (most of which have per-planet caps).
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 03:17:53 pm by Peter Ebbesen »
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: What happens if you don't get the (AIP) memo?
« Reply #218 on: June 30, 2014, 04:46:20 pm »
EDIT2: Come to think of it, rudimentary wavesize comparisons should be possible fairly easily by starting comparative 1HW and 3HW games and detonating level 2 or 3 nukes.
I did just check the first wave of a 1HW game and the first wave of a 3HW game with otherwise the same settings.  The intial wave sizes are similar due to minimum sizes, etc, but the "FleetShipBudget *= (FInt)Game.Instance.Options.TotalHumanPlayerPlusExtraHomeworldsCount" line was working as expected.

Bear in mind that in a multi HW case it will generally prefer sending two simultaneous half-size waves (from a single player, so 4 total if they were synchronized).  In your case I imagine they always targeted the same planet (shameless MurderZone that it was) so that didn't really impact anything, but thought I'd mention it.
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Offline Nodor

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Re: What happens if you don't get the (AIP) memo?
« Reply #219 on: June 30, 2014, 05:21:43 pm »
Normally, the way I play with friends we expect to run at 300-600 AIP without difficulty on 8.3-8.6.   Getting to Mark 3 AI ships on normal waves can usually be handled by appropriate chokepoint defenses, but the exo-waves can be a bit rough at that point.  It will probably be this weekend before this happens.

Historically, we would get to about 500 AIP, and then cheese the heck out of a Super Terminal to get -2000 or so AIP, then take everything in our path for the knowledge and fleet size.   Now that's no longer an option and it would be good to know where the new thresholds are.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: What happens if you don't get the (AIP) memo?
« Reply #220 on: June 30, 2014, 05:36:44 pm »
Normally, the way I play with friends we expect to run at 300-600 AIP without difficulty on 8.3-8.6.   Getting to Mark 3 AI ships on normal waves can usually be handled by appropriate chokepoint defenses, but the exo-waves can be a bit rough at that point.  It will probably be this weekend before this happens.

Historically, we would get to about 500 AIP, and then cheese the heck out of a Super Terminal to get -2000 or so AIP, then take everything in our path for the knowledge and fleet size.   Now that's no longer an option and it would be good to know where the new thresholds are.
Yea, I don't know what the actual thresholds are right now with the turretry changes.  The determined and industrious can probably defend against a lot right now.  But yea, it's not because of riding the superterminal for many hundreds of AIP reduction anymore.

My guess is that you can get AIP pretty high without dying right now, as long as it is spent efficiently.
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Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: What happens if you don't get the (AIP) memo?
« Reply #221 on: July 01, 2014, 01:11:29 am »
STUFF!

Didn't want to quote everything, because laziness. Now, as for exos being weak, I could be wrong about that. I do have to admit that I have FIVE exo sources, FS, Golem, Botnet, Spirecraft, and Champion. Now only a few times do they sync up, but I've never noticed any of them to be particularly weak. As for normal waves being dangerous, let along more dangerous, I've never had that happen. Even a normal city with only minimal turret back up can easily hold up to waves in my experience. However I am playing at 7.6/7.6 or 8/8, depending on the game. So perhaps its an difficulty issue there. Do the exos scale up much/at all as difficulty goes up? Also I tend to abuse things to keep the AIP on the floor, so that could be another issue. (Yes, even in an FS game, there are ways to do that. And they are either VERY SLOW, or outright cheating.)

Your AIP reducing idea is rather interesting, however I wonder if it would be better to just give us a way to build Spire Civilian Leader posts. They have shown the ability to, if only slowly, hack into the AI and reduce its response ability. Perhaps each City could function similar to one. Reduce the AIP buy 3-5 per hour, but only having this ability as long as its a lvl 2 city (IE has a Habitation Center). It would make more sense than the idea you posted, at least IMO. Because those numbers sound MUCH too high. Even at 10/10 you would get 500 AIP reduction PER CITY. That all but guarantees you can keep the AIP on the floor, even at 10/10, while taking as much territory as you want. I love my FS, and I can't say I don't cheat or cheese, but there are limits.

Offline tadrinth

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Re: What happens if you don't get the (AIP) memo?
« Reply #222 on: July 01, 2014, 02:29:25 am »
How hard did 7.034 hit the reinforcement => wave conversion on lower difficulties? 

I like FS progress reducing the degree to which the AI redirects reinforcements to waves.  FS means the AI should be worried about keeping adequate defenses; it's already using exos to try to kill the player. 


Offline Peter Ebbesen

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Re: What happens if you don't get the (AIP) memo?
« Reply #223 on: July 01, 2014, 05:52:52 am »
Your AIP reducing idea is rather interesting, however I wonder if it would be better to just give us a way to build Spire Civilian Leader posts. They have shown the ability to, if only slowly, hack into the AI and reduce its response ability. Perhaps each City could function similar to one. Reduce the AIP buy 3-5 per hour, but only having this ability as long as its a lvl 2 city (IE has a Habitation Center). It would make more sense than the idea you posted, at least IMO. Because those numbers sound MUCH too high. Even at 10/10 you would get 500 AIP reduction PER CITY. That all but guarantees you can keep the AIP on the floor, even at 10/10, while taking as much territory as you want. I love my FS, and I can't say I don't cheat or cheese, but there are limits.
Interesting idea with spire civilian leader functionality, though that falls somewhat afoul of the "encouraging the player to drag out the game/watch the paint dry while waiting for AIP to fall" issue that the spire civilian leaders already have as a game mechanic. Do note that you misread the AIP reduction I proposed - it will always be in the 50-100 range.

50+(10-difficulty)*10 AIP reduction means that difficulty 10 gives 50 AIP reduction, difficulty 7.6 gives 74 AIP reduction, and 5 gives 100 AIP reduction.

EDIT: Removed teasing statement.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 07:40:36 am by Peter Ebbesen »
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Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: What happens if you don't get the (AIP) memo?
« Reply #224 on: July 01, 2014, 10:03:41 am »
Interesting idea with spire civilian leader functionality, though that falls somewhat afoul of the "encouraging the player to drag out the game/watch the paint dry while waiting for AIP to fall" issue that the spire civilian leaders already have as a game mechanic. Do note that you misread the AIP reduction I proposed - it will always be in the 50-100 range.

50+(10-difficulty)*10 AIP reduction means that difficulty 10 gives 50 AIP reduction, difficulty 7.6 gives 74 AIP reduction, and 5 gives 100 AIP reduction.

EDIT: Removed teasing statement.

Well I missed the teasing statement, so I can't counter with my own. That makes me sad... And yeah, I forgot the math order. Yeah that does seem more reasonable.