Author Topic: The new hacking mechanic  (Read 15331 times)

Offline Cyborg

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The new hacking mechanic
« on: March 06, 2012, 11:27:47 pm »
Are people finding the hacking mechanic useful? As I understand it, you only get to do so many raids. If you use up one of these raids doing hacking, that's one less you can  knowledge raid. Best case scenario, you save your raid, and you still get knowledge to unlock a ship and the ship that you unlock with your advanced research station.

Thoughts? Also, is this encouraging folks to save scum to get the ship that they want?
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: The new hacking mechanic
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2012, 11:46:32 pm »
Are people finding the hacking mechanic useful? As I understand it, you only get to do so many raids.
Basically correct, it's not meant to be a useful mechanic though, however it's made K-Raiding more interesting.  It's a governor on the engine.  You only get to do so much before the AI whacks you upside the head.  It's similar to the tazer lock.  It was too powerful for the intent, so it got restricted.

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If you use up one of these raids doing hacking, that's one less you can knowledge raid.
Precisely.

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Thoughts? Also, is this encouraging folks to save scum to get the ship that they want?
I'm not save scumming 'real' games, though I am the same one to test out the different levels of challenge each one incurs, including combinations.  However, yes, I could see save scumming ARS captures, doing a hack if you got a 'lousy' ship.  I won't but it's a significant possibility.
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Offline HellishFiend

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Re: The new hacking mechanic
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2012, 11:57:31 pm »
It's meant to prevent monotony and boredom. If it nerfs the player too much, theyll do something else to buff us.

I think it's a good change. Now there will be less situations where you "have to" grind out a bunch of knowledge raids, just because you can.

It also adds to the grand strategy of the game by forcing you to make a choice where you want to spend your hacks. If you think you have what it takes to continue hacking past a certain point, nothing stops you from trying.

As for save scumming the ARS hacks, arent the three choices going to be the same each time?
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Offline zoutzakje

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Re: The new hacking mechanic
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2012, 06:01:42 am »
no I believe the 3 choices were random. But you could get a different ship type from ARS in the past as well with savescumming, so that really doesn't matter now. In fact, we can choose from 3 types now with hacking, which is a lot more freedom than we had in the past. Even if the ship types suck, I don't see the need to savescum.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: The new hacking mechanic
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2012, 06:45:57 am »
Are people finding the hacking mechanic useful? As I understand it, you only get to do so many raids.
Basically correct, it's not meant to be a useful mechanic though, however it's made K-Raiding more interesting.  It's a governor on the engine.  You only get to do so much before the AI whacks you upside the head.  It's similar to the tazer lock.  It was too powerful for the intent, so it got restricted.
I'm actually trying to make k-raiding more useful, too, in the sense that it should actually be easier and quicker to do now.  Previously our approach was to marginalize the tactic by making it really long and annoying.  This was better than the previous shattering-of-balance, but as we've seen recently it didn't really even prevent that.  So now it's easier, and I actually hope to see more players using k-raiding (and the other stuff) when it's strategically advantageous.  I may even make it easier, just to encourage broadening into those kinds of tactics. 

But the key that allows that is that now you can't go on doing it a basically-unlimited amount of times without something hitting the fan.  At the same time, it's not just saying "nope, can't hack anymore, bye", it's just getting nastier and more unpredictable in how you respond.  So you don't know exactly where "the line" is in terms of how much backlash you can handle, and even after you cross it you can probably pull out a desperate defense and survive.  Hopefully this will create some suspense, but that could be wishful thinking on my part :)

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If you use up one of these raids doing hacking, that's one less you can knowledge raid.
Precisely.
Accurate, but not precise :)  The first ship-design-hack causes significantly less future suspicion than 3000 points of k-raid.  But yes, it's a tradeoff.  And who knows where the numbers will end up.

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Thoughts? Also, is this encouraging folks to save scum to get the ship that they want?
I'm not save scumming 'real' games, though I am the same one to test out the different levels of challenge each one incurs, including combinations.  However, yes, I could see save scumming ARS captures, doing a hack if you got a 'lousy' ship.  I won't but it's a significant possibility.
It does somewhat encourage "capture the planet normally, and if I don't like what I get savescum and hack it and see if I like those choices, and if I don't like those just savescum and take the normal one again".  It doesn't reward "hack, don't like choices, savescum, hack the same planet, see if I like these choices better", though: the 3 types available on a planet are now set at the beginning of the game (or when you load an older game).  Which, incidentally, makes the normal ARS unlocks vary between planets instead of always giving you the "next" one from the map random seed.


Anyway, we'll see how things go.  There are some bugs people have found that I need to iron out, though I get the impression that the mechanic is working in most cases.

If this winds up being too restrictive, the rate of growth of the AI's response to hacking can be changed to allow more of it.  I don't mind doing that if it results in more choice and more fun, because now there's actually some way to balance it so that it doesn't render a large swath of the other choices in the game sub-optimal (and thus "not there" in the sense that not managing energy is not really an option for really serious play, etc).
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Offline _K_

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Re: The new hacking mechanic
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2012, 07:52:24 am »
I would still like some sort of specific indicator of how much exactly the AI is angry about hacking, so that i can try to figure the exact equations on how the different types of hacking are related. I agree that we dont need another AIP counter, but how about add that specific value to the alert message you get in the top-left corner?
Or maybe just put these equations in the wiki? I mean, I'm sure there are people who are eager to get in the depths of analysis and dont mind a little math.

Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: The new hacking mechanic
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2012, 09:28:12 am »
Real Men never save-scum.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: The new hacking mechanic
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2012, 09:31:33 am »
Maybe just a coarse indicator, like green, yellow, or red text depending on the amount of hacking done so far.

Offline Volatar

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Re: The new hacking mechanic
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2012, 12:17:19 pm »
Real Men never save-scum.

This is the philosophy I have taken for two and a half years.

After two and a half years of never being able to finish a full campaign I am about ready to give up on that idea.  :P

Offline Hearteater

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Re: The new hacking mechanic
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2012, 01:41:45 pm »
It is totally worthwhile to save scum your first several games.  You can learn so much trying to beat the exact same problem in several different ways.  Simple things like slightly different positioning can change the outcome greatly.

Offline Wanderer

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Re: The new hacking mechanic
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2012, 02:24:21 pm »
Real Men never save-scum.

Real men died during the first AI War.  The rest of us are survivors.  :)

I agree though, save scumming to learn and try different tactics, even insane off the wall ones, is sometimes your best bet.  If you think I play at 9.8 because I *didn't* save scum to try out all sorts of different ways to survive, then you'd be wrong.  There were cases I couldn't find ways to survive, I learned from those too.  Heh, spent 9 hours once puzzling out a series of events that would let me survive a particular wave once.  I canned that game afterwards and decided I'd figure out ways to avoid even being in that scenario again.

Keith, sorry.  I'll try to be more explicit in my answers.  You're correct, of course.  Now to see how it plays out.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: The new hacking mechanic
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2012, 02:33:22 pm »
Real Men never save-scum.
Real men died during the first AI War.  The rest of us are survivors.  :)
That's exactly what I thought ;)

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Keith, sorry.  I'll try to be more explicit in my answers.  You're correct, of course.  Now to see how it plays out.
Oh, no need to apologize, haha, I was just clarifying.  Which was probably made necessary by my previous miscommunication :)

I am very curious to find out how far y'all can get hacking in various scenarios before things get out of control and you die or have to stop (and specifically what it was about it that made it get out of control).  Zoutzakje reported getting 162 reduction out of a Superterminal before it just started overwhelming even his spire fleet with 100+ mkV ships spawning every second.  Considering that that's as far as he got with superweapons, it might be too draconian ;)
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: The new hacking mechanic
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2012, 02:42:12 pm »
I am very curious to find out how far y'all can get hacking in various scenarios before things get out of control and you die or have to stop (and specifically what it was about it that made it get out of control).  Zoutzakje reported getting 162 reduction out of a Superterminal before it just started overwhelming even his spire fleet with 100+ mkV ships spawning every second.  Considering that that's as far as he got with superweapons, it might be too draconian ;)

Considering the volume of probable reduction he had going into it and since reduction still affects spawn volume, I'm not sure.  I got distracted from my 7/7 testing game due to real life and a need to pop some skulls in CoD with some buddies.  :)  I'll get back to it probably later today.
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Offline orzelek

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Re: The new hacking mechanic
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2012, 02:47:08 pm »
I did not test the system yet - but tieing K-raids and ability to chose ships from ARS doesn't look so well.
ARS was talked about from time to time and I think it was agreed that we need some kind of choice. There were units buffs etc to try and make things you get to be more useful. But now I don't see how I could prefer to K-raid when I know I will need that hack threat level to choose my ships so that I have at least some choice over sado-randomizer....

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: The new hacking mechanic
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2012, 02:49:26 pm »
Considering the volume of probable reduction he had going into it and since reduction still affects spawn volume, I'm not sure.
Is it still doing that?  I'd intended to change that, as I said in the 5.028 notes, "Also, the superterminal's response is now based only on the reduction achieved through the superterminal, not total AIP-reduction, so it's no longer very important to do the ST before getting reduction from other sources."

I figured it was a suitable buff to give while I was undoing the world around it ;)


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I got distracted from my 7/7 testing game due to real life and a need to pop some skulls in CoD with some buddies.  :)
Haha, sounds like a relaxation technique of mine from a couple years ago: TF2. Bots. Sniper. Bow and Arrow. Stand in the spot where the other team leaves me alone. See how many I can pin to the wall.
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