The new hacking mechanic

[Wanderer]

Is it still doing that?  I'd intended to change that, as I said in the 5.028 notes, "Also, the superterminal's response is now based only on the reduction achieved through the superterminal, not total AIP-reduction, so it's no longer very important to do the ST before getting reduction from other sources."

I figured it was a suitable buff to give while I was undoing the world around it

Um, I have no idea first-hand.  I was going off a comment you made a bit ago.  Whoops?  Nice buff though, that rocks.

[_K_]

I will need that hack threat level to choose my ships so that I have at least some choice over sado-randomizer....

This extremely strong preference of some bonus classes means that either the balance is not good enough, or you are just a weak player who cant FIGHT WITH WHAT YOU GOT!
And if it is the latter, then the system is perfectly fine, the game lets you pick a bonus class, but in return takes your chance to k-raid. You didn't think such significant advantage would come at no PERMANENT price, eh?

Anyway, I'm loving how the new system looks on paper, and i wish i could crunch some numbers to see if the balance is fine.

[Cyborg]

I think I'm going to need an indicator or more numbers to actually comment on this, Keith. I mean, the way it looks, you have to trade away a full cap of ships that you could have gotten with your regular knowledge raid to choose some random chance bonus ship.

So, on one hand, you could get two ships, and using the knowledge hacking, you only get one(but you get to choose!). Surely that choice is not worth 2 caps? I really don't know. We need more information.

[Wanderer]

I will need that hack threat level to choose my ships so that I have at least some choice over sado-randomizer....

This extremely strong preference of some bonus classes means that either the balance is not good enough, or you are just a weak player who cant FIGHT WITH WHAT YOU GOT!

Snort.  Now now, K.  Even I'm caught on the fine line of balance there, and I'm pretty sure I've proven I can fight with roughly anything handed to me, even if I whine a bit.  That has little to do with not wanting to take the worst choices.  There's a post with rough numbers around here from Keith that gives out the gist of pain for hacking.  A K-Raid is worth roughly the second ARS hack.  So, 1.5 K-Raids = first 2 ARS hacks.  Is 4500 K worth semi-picking two of my bonus ships?  The third and fourth ARS hack can hose you up pretty badly.

There's a chance of me getting autobombers, a useless ship (to me) except for defenses, or youngling vultures, or something similar that I find difficult to use on offense, which is what I want bonus ships for.  Would trading that out for a MK I/II of a more valuable ship to me be worth more than taking Missile Frigates to II and something else to support offense, since I now have a stronger defense? 

That's the balance.  I can understand that people are feeling like their being given a new 'toy', the ARS hack, and that everything else is taken away from them if they want to use it.  It's been a desired bonus for a while.  What needs to be kept in mind is that you're (probably) never going to hack all five ARSs, or even more than 2, unless you're heavily built up for defense AND offense.  Even then you're unlikely to survive the fifth hack except on really low AI levels.

How many actually K-Raided regularly enough to affect them?  Not every system has a SuperTerminal to even abuse.  In theory, if you've been ARS hacking to get preferred ships, you won't need to K-Raid because you won't be fighting to make the best use of what little you've gotten, you've gotten your chance to get ships more in line (though, not usually perfect) with your preferred style of play.

The minor difference I'd like to see is a second, minor hack.  A visibility hack against the ARS, so I can tell if I *want* to hack it for more options before I do.  I think that'd give an option outside of save scumming to try to play optimally.  However, in the end, you can basically K-Raid a bit just like before and take your lumps on the ARSs if you want, or you can get your 'bonus' via the ARS selection.  I like the balance.  I'm just still testing to see if the balance is valid. 

Ahem: Shield Bearer, Autobomber, and Youngling Vulture.  Realllyyy???  Yeesh.  Hang a sign on the thing "Defensive ARS research inside".

[keith.lamothe]

I will need that hack threat level to choose my ships so that I have at least some choice over sado-randomizer....

This extremely strong preference of some bonus classes means that either the balance is not good enough, or you are just a weak player who cant FIGHT WITH WHAT YOU GOT!

While it is true that the SD-hacking cannot be allowed to be a cover for bad balance (there are still some bonus types that need significant attention on that point), and the general point behind ARS-granted types is to force variety so people learn to fight with what they have, I don't think AIP in this thread has risen to the MkII level where the waves start happening in caps lock

@Cyborg: yes, the numbers are important.  I'm still not sure on how much should go into the game interface itself, but the actual computations of hacking-response-spawns are written out as they happen to the RuntimeData/CounterSaboteurSpawns.txt file (if Advanced Logging is on).  Here's an example entry:

Code: [Select]

0:24:29 Counter-Superterminal-hack Spawn
spawnStrength = TotalNumberOfSuperTerminalTicks * 4 = 244
kRaidAntagonism = TotalAmountOfKnowledgeRaided * (10000/3000) = 0
kRaidAntagonism *= (8/TotalHumanPlayersThatGetKnowledgeCount) = 0
superTerminalAntagonism = TotalNumberOfSuperTerminalTicks * 1500 = 91500
shipDesignHackingAntagonism = if 1 Adv Research Station hacked then 30k, if 2 hacked then 90k, if 3 270k, etc = 0
totalHackingAntagonism = 91500
multiplierForSuperterminalHackResponseSpawn = 1 + (totalHackingAntagonism/160000) = 1.57
spawnStrength *= hackingMultiplier = 383.51
maximumNumberOfWildRollsForSuperterminalHackSpawn = 1 + (totalHackingAntagonism/80000) = 2
wild-roll:ShortRangeWarpJump, spawnStrength = 383.51
wild-roll:InnocuousRoll, spawnStrength = 383.51
traded 150 strength for tech-level increase 2 times (resulting strength:83.51 techLevel:3)
spawnedType:FighterIII quantity:3 (strength-each:4)
spawnedType:ZenithParalyzerIII quantity:6 (strength-each:4)
spawnedType:Cruiser quantity:5 (strength-each:4)
spawnedType:BomberIII quantity:3 (strength-each:4)
spawnedType:ZenithMirrorIII quantity:4 (strength-each:4)
Long story short:
K-raiding 1 planet's worth (3000) of knowledge generates 80k antagonism
Superterminaling 1 planet's worth (20) of AIP generates 30k
The first SD-hack generates 30k (less than half of a 3k k-raid) and is thus not very "expensive".
The second SD-hack generates 90k (slightly more than a 3k k-raid)(edit: it actually just generates 60k, bringing the total due to previous sd-hacks to 90k) and is thus less of a given
The third SD-hack generates 270k, which is waaaay out there.  And it gets worse for 4 and 5; the idea being that those should be pretty apocalyptic and to encourage the player to work with the "natural" pick at least some of the time.

And the numbers are certainly up for further balance, as are the formulas themselves (like making the first "chunk" of each type of hacking have a much lower impact like is already done for sd-hacking), this is just a first guess

[HellishFiend]

I havent played around with hacking yet, but I just gotta say once again that I think it sounds great, especially after looking at those numbers. The only obvious choice is the first ARS hack, and nothing after that screams "I just gotta do/grind this because it would be stupid not to" like you see in a whole bunch of other games with this sort of thing.

[Wanderer]

Yikes.

So, 100 AIP reduction (200 down, 100 up) is worth 300k in Hacking antagonism?  Yeowch!

[keith.lamothe]

The minor difference I'd like to see is a second, minor hack.  A visibility hack against the ARS, so I can tell if I *want* to hack it for more options before I do.  I think that'd give an option outside of save scumming to try to play optimally.

True.  I think I'll just make the "ARS" tab of the tech menu always visible on a planet that has bonus types to give and you haven't picked yet (I don't even have to hide it after you've picked, it just avoids clutter that you can't ever interact with again).  That way you'll be able to see a planet's picks just by sneaking a science ship of any kind onto the planet and opening up that tab.  Very easy change.  Of course, then someone will ask for the game to remember that you've seen it and let you see it at any point in the future, which would be terribly inconvenient to implement

Mousing over those buttons should probably also make crystal clear whether the planet has been hacked or not, and that if you want a ship other than the first one you're going to need to hack it.

Ahem: Shield Bearer, Autobomber, and Youngling Vulture.  Realllyyy???  Yeesh.  Hang a sign on the thing "Defensive ARS research inside".

Shield Bearers are like a whole bag of tricks rolled up into one.  Even crazy stuff like forcibly carrying AI ships camping a wormhole to the other side with Riots

So, 100 AIP reduction (200 down, 100 up) is worth 300k in Hacking antagonism?  Yeowch!

Actualy only 150k, it's number of "ticks" * 1500, not total-AIP-reduction-from-superterminal * 1500.  150k is nothing to sneeze at, of course.

[chemical_art]

Autobomber defensive only? 

Before Matyrs came around, especially before the damage cap, they were THE unit to clear up built up wormholes.

Park 6 space docks next to an enemy wormhole, get at least 100k resources, then set up the docks to autobuild the autobombers into the enemy wormhole FRD and watch for the autowin!

[keith.lamothe]

Yes, there was a time when the awesomebomb was so OP as to be the answer to every question

[_K_]

kRaidAntagonism = TotalAmountOfKnowledgeRaided * (10000/3000)
kRaidAntagonism *= (8/TotalHumanPlayersThatGetKnowledgeCount)
superTerminalAntagonism = TotalNumberOfSuperTerminalTicks * 1500
shipDesignHackingAntagonism = 30000^(TotalNumberOfARSHacked)

Delicious.
However, this directly implies that Superterminaling is always superior to K-raiding, unless the floor is reached or the layout does not allow more systems to be taken. Even with the facts that the terminal is much, much less flexible and is basically one-time use. I mean, it generates almost 3x more knowledge per antagonism gained, and you ALSO get the resources of those planets you get, which is quite significant.
As such, i'd actually suggest reducing that multiplier (the 10000/3000) to something like (7500/3000, which in fact is just 2.5). With this, 1 planet K-raided would equal 40 AIP reduced in the terminal. Still quite a difference, but not the current 53.

I'd suggest some further modifications to these, but first i'd want to ask more experienced players and the devs as well: to what extent are these things are SUPPOSED to be used. I mean, whats your opinion, how many K-raids should a decent and efficient player be able to do, how much AIP should he be able to reduce via the terminal? And at which values should he be seriously struggling?

[zoutzakje]

what exactly does antagonizing the AI do again? I managed to reduce my AIP a good 162 points before I had to shut it down and still managed to win the game pretty easily after that. I did notice some alerted planets reinforcing massively over the period though, occasionally causing enemy raids into my systems, even after i killed the super terminal.

[keith.lamothe]

what exactly does antagonizing the AI do again? I managed to reduce my AIP a good 162 points before I had to shut it down and still managed to win the game pretty easily after that. I did notice some alerted planets reinforcing massively over the period though, occasionally causing enemy raids into my systems, even after i killed the super terminal.

Hacking antagonism only applies to hacking responses.  I only used the word "antagonism" because I couldn't think of a better.  The general idea is that hacking never has anything like AIP-type costs that hurt you continually for the rest of the game, rather it has upfront costs that are "paid in full" simply by killing whatever it spawned at you during the event.

[chemical_art]

With the current mechanics, the most efficient path is to hack two ARS's, and any further action be used for K-raiding.

[keith.lamothe]

With the current mechanics, the most efficient path is to hack two ARS's, and any further action be used for K-raiding.

Superterminal hacking is actually way more efficient than k-raiding if you can manage it.  You don't have to keep the captured planets, etc.