Games too balanced

[vlkm]

Long time mediocre player here (I have my own way of playing, well had), AI wars is probably my most all time played game outside of MMO's (think it beats Civ4 in playtime even). Started playing around the beginning when I heard of the game on OO forums.

Over the last few patches however I feel the game has become incredibly tedious. Guard post have become really tedious and even slaughter units that should be good vs them, they all have dampening, and I actually loose less units taking out a fort over a GP. Theres lots of combinations that just feel heavily unbalanced(need lots of micro) when some guard posts are under shields or in a fortress range. God forbid there's an EYE or other wonders. It means I have to micro so much, with large losses. There doesn't seem to be any units now that deal with Guard posts like Raid starships used to (they completely got gutted, I can't even see a reason for them now (unless I I want to take out an ION - other units can do that also at less cost)). Raids used to bring fun into the game and were core of my playstyle. Starships in general get slaughtered so fast vs GP. The only way I can play now is to bypass a lot of these imbalances and tedium micro is to use champs to take out guard posts, but then I need to first spend time leveling the champs up for a few hours before I can actually start to play normally again. 

There used to be many ways to approach things via "overpowered" units but as the game progresses in patches it gets fixed more and more, where there is suddenly only a couple of "right" ways to do something. And that usually turns into heavy micro with pre-selected units. The units stop being fun when they get restricted so much via caps (and then you see the AI spam low cap ships at you) and other means.

I guess what I'm saying is that the game has become too "balanced" for my playstyle.

I didn't see it in the Wiki, is there a cheat to give your champ levels? Yes I have no issues playing with cheats, as it turns my games into enjoyable for me (my fav is unlimited units one, as I still need the resources and the units become fun again). 

       

[Kahuna]

The new MRLS Guard Post under a shield.. fkn insane.. No one tested the patch before releasing.

[Wingflier]

Wow. Keith finally does some things to remove blobbing from the game and make it so where you have to actually use STRATEGY in a STRATEGY game, and now you're complaining that the game is too balanced?

Your complaint is that we don't have the same overpowered units as before that could just steamroll everything?

What am I hearing.

[Kahuna]

There's no such thing as "too balanced". AI War isnt' balanced atm. The new Guard Posts are overpowered and there are still garbage bonus ships people refuse to buff and vote for in the buff polls.

[Diazo]

Well, that does nothing to make his thoughts on the state of the game invalid. If he was not on the forums during the discussion leading up to buffing the guard posts, I can see how it would be a nasty surprise.

Having said that vlkm, the reasoning for buffing the guard posts boiled down into two reasons as I see it.

1) Guard posts did nothing before.
Guard posts are supposed to be these structures placed by the AI to impede the players progress but they essentially were unarmed. I know they were armed before, but they were not even killing a single ship before dying when the players blob approached a lot of the time.

So, the buff happened and we got the dangerous guard posts we do now.

2) Make the guard posts distinct.
With the more dangerous guard posts their abilities were made distinct in their roles so that you did not end up with guard posts with different names but the same in terms of game play. As part of this one or two guard posts got a bonus against raid starships. This was seen as a nerf to raid starships at the time, but at the time raid starships were arguably overpowered. The 'design-role' (as I see it) for Raid Starships is to get in, kill their target and get out. They are not intended to be your primary attack force that you clear systems with, they are for getting in, killing that Data Center, and then having at least a chance to get out.

Now, my opinion has no more weight then yours in the grand scheme of things so make a post with in-game examples and numbers to back it up on why you think guard posts are overpowered and the devs will listen. No guarantees they will do anything, but the devs do listen to all the feedback they get.


Also, have you checked out the new spire and zenith starships? With their recent changes they are my goto unit when I want to actually clear a system with starships and they do significantly better then raid starships in terms of sustained combat.

D.

[Kahuna]

make a post with in-game examples and numbers to back it up on why you think guard posts are overpowered

Step 1: Start AIWar.exe.
Step 2: Start a new game.
Step 3: Press F1 5 times.
Step 4: Mouse over MarkIV MRLS Guard Post and read.
Step 5: Press F1 4 times.
Step 6: Mouse over Standard Fighter and read.
Step 7: Mouse over Bomber and read.
Step 8: Mouse over Missile Frigate Fighter and read.
Step 9: Build caps of Fighters, Bombers, Missile Frigates and bonus ships.
Step 10: Find a MarkIV MRLS Guard Post
Step 11: Attack MarkIV MRLS Guard Post with caps of Fighters, Bombers, Missile Frigates and bonus ships.
Step 12: Analyze results.

No guarantees they will do anything

This is why there are still underpowered bonus ships. A perfect example of this is the Deflector Drone. Deflector could be easily buffed:
Increase cap from 196 to 272
Increase health from 26.600 to 40.000 (cap health from 5.213.600 to 10.880.000)
Quadruple or triple the AoE of the laser damage reduction buff.
Increase movement speed from 72 to 84.
Considering Deflector drones were SO BAD before they didn't even work as cannon fodder.. with a buff like this I might actually use them some times. They're swarmer type ships, have high ship cap and VERY low health. Swarmer ships actually need higher cap health than low cap ships.. perfect examples of this are Spire Tractor Platforms and Stealth Battle Ships.. when you encounter 10 of those it feels like they NEVER die even though their cap health is surprisingly low. Swarmer ships need more cap health because they die faster so their overall firepower is reduced faster.

Also, have you checked out the new spire and zenith starships? With their recent changes they are my goto unit when I want to actually clear a system with starships and they do significantly better then raid starships in terms of sustained combat.

Raid Starships were never good in combat. All they were good at was raiding Guard Posts, Data Centers, Co-Processors, Ion Cannons and other structures.
And no I haven't checked out the new starships yet but the patch notes look good.

[Marmu23]

 If you`re getting frustrated at the game try a game using shield bearers, those things change everything. For offense add them to your blob, for defense put them over your fortresses and turrets. Fight power with power!!

[keith.lamothe]

make a post with in-game examples and numbers to back it up on why you think guard posts are overpowered

Step 1: Start AIWar.exe.
Step 2: Start a new game.
Step 3: Press F1 5 times.
Step 4: Mouse over MarkIV MRLS Guard Post and read.
Step 5: Press F1 4 times.
Step 6: Mouse over Standard Fighter and read.
Step 7: Mouse over Bomber and read.
Step 8: Mouse over Missile Frigate Fighter and read.
Step 9: Build caps of Fighters, Bombers, Missile Frigates and bonus ships.
Step 10: Find a MarkIV MRLS Guard Post
Step 11: Attack MarkIV MRLS Guard Post with caps of Fighters, Bombers, Missile Frigates and bonus ships.
Step 12: Analyze results.

I apologize if it looks lazy, but I'm pretty busy working to do that just right now.  If you could humor me with the actual relevant stat numbers up through step 8 that would help.  For steps 9-12, I'm expecting that the result is "rocks fall, everyone dies" for the mkI fleet?  Or is it not quite that nasty?

More to the point: what do you think the outcome should be, in terms of % of each triangle type left in the fleet when the post goes down?  We won't all have the same answer to that question, but if the actual outcome is disagreeing with everyone's idea of what it should be, that would indicate a need to change.

And for the record, I did test that patch   Otherwise it would have been worse.

[chemical_art]

Chris, I think it should be balanced so that if the fleetship counter to the guardpost, if using a full cap of I's, should be able to knock out a III with about 66% losses. If you deploy a full blob, a full 33% of them it should be knocked out...if possible.

This is pure gut checking, nothing more. The issue seems to be that while the anti-blobbing is fine, it hurts the counters way too much.

[Wingflier]

I've been playing with the latest patches, and I don't find the new Guard Posts to be particularly challenging once you have 4 or 5 planets, which takes like less than an hour. With a pure Starship build they basically do nothing. With a fleetships of MKIII+, no guard posts should even be a problem for you.

GRANTED, you can't just V-Click systems like before, but there's ways around just having to blob your entire army to each guard post too. You just have to be creative. Like using the Sniper modules on the Spire Corvettes, you can kill most Guard Posts in the system without even taking a step.

And that's what AI War should promote:  Creativity.

[Cyborg]

Looks like you just need to move your throwaway units in first and then go for the guard post. You can show the ranges to know where to move your groups.



There is a defect in this picture, though. You will notice that the weasels do not draw missile fire.

[keith.lamothe]

Odd about the weasels not drawing missile fire.  There are some cases I can think of where it'd be legitimate for them not to but I don't think this is one of them.  Is that in mantis?  A link to that or a save posted here would help, and I can put it on my list for next week's release.

[Cyborg]

Odd about the weasels not drawing missile fire.  There are some cases I can think of where it'd be legitimate for them not to but I don't think this is one of them.  Is that in mantis?  A link to that or a save posted here would help, and I can put it on my list for next week's release.

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=11031

[TechSY730]

I do still think the guard posts needs some tweaking. My two biggest complaints right now are:
1. 6x multipliers, too high. 4x sounds more reasonable, even if base DPS has to go up in return
2. Many of them counter their counter (like missile guard posts have artillery hull type and 6x vs polycrystal, but bombers, the ones with a bonus to artillery, have polycrystal hulls). As the hull types seem to have a good assignment thematically, I think the bonuses of the guard posts need to be shifted somewhat instead.

While I am not as pessimistic as Kahuna on the current fleet ship bonus state (no offense to Kahuna intended ), I do agree that there is still quite of work to be done on this front.

[Kahuna]

If you could humor me with the actual relevant stat numbers up through step 8 that would help.

Mark I Fighter
Cap health: 15.840.000
Cap dps: 97.920
Cap dps with bonus: 587.520

Mark II Fighter
Cap health: 31.680.000
Cap dps: 195.840
Cap dps with bonus: 1.175.040

Mark III Fighter
Cap health: 47.520.000
Cap dps: 293.760
Cap dps with bonus: 1.762.560

Mark IV Fighter
Cap health: 63.360.000
Cap dps: 391.680
Cap dps with bonus: 2.350.080



Mark I MRLS Guard Post
Health: 3.000.000
dps: 99.750
dps with bonus: 598.500

Mark II MRLS Guard Post
Health: 6.000.000
dps: 199.500
dps with bonus: 1.197.000

Mark III MRLS Guard Post
Health: 9.000.000
dps: 299.250
dps with bonus: 1.795.500

Mark IV MRLS Guard Post
Health: 12.000.000
dps: 399.000
dps with bonus: 2.394.000

Fighters vs MRLSs
Mark I Fighters destroy Mark I MRLS Guard Post in 5,1 seconds
Mark I MRLS Guard Post destroys Mark I Fighters in 26,5 seconds
In 5,1 seconds MRLS Guard Post does 3.056.066 damage and destroys 19 Fighters

The first burst from the MRLS will destroy some of the Fighters so the MRLS wont be destroyed exactly in 5,1 seconds.. and Fighters have 4 second reload time. MRLS also have much longer range than Fighters so the MRLS will get to shoot at least 1 burst before Fighters are able to shoot.. so it will do about 3.654.566 damage and destroy 22 Fighters.. and again.. Fighters die so the MRLS wont be destroyed in 5,1 seconds so the MRLS will destroy about 26 fighters.. which is 27% of the cap. Luckily Fighters are cheap. A cap of them costs only 38.400 resources.

If you are unlucky and get a MarkIV AI planet adjacent to your home world.. it would be Mark I Fighters vs Mark IV MRLS.
Mark IV MRLS would destroy all Mark I Fighters in about 7 seconds. In 2 bursts in other words. Most of the Fighters wouldn't even get to shoot because MRLS has much longer range.
Caps of Mark I and Mark II Fighters destroy Mark IV MRLS Guard Post in 7 seconds (This is same as MarkIII Fighters vs MarkIV MRLS)
Mark IV MRLS Guard Post destroys Mark I and Mark II Fighters in 20 seconds
Mark IV MRLS will do about 19.152.000 damage and destroy about 39 Mark III Fighters which is about 41% of the cap.
Add AI ships guarding the MRLS and the Wormhole the fighters came trough and the fighters will probably lose.

Bombers vs Missile Guard Post
Mark I Bomber
Cap health: 14.976.000
Cap dps: 78.080
Cap dps with bonus: 468.480

Mark I Heavy Bomber Starship
Cap health: 36.000.000
Cap dps: 300.000
Btw. Bomber Starship's description is outdated. It still says "but unable to hit smaller targets" even though it can.

Mark I Missile Guard Post
Health: 3.000.000
dps: 80.000
dps with bonus: 480.000

Mark IV Missile Guard Post
Health: 12.000.000
dps: 320.000
dps with bonus: 1.920.000


Mark I Bombers destroy Mark I Missile Guard Post in 6 seconds
Mark I Missile Guard Post will destroy Mark I Bombers in 31 seconds
Since Missile Guard Posts have crazy range they will get to shoot at least 3 times before Bombers get to shoot. So the Missile Guard Post will do about 4.320.000 damage and destroy about 28 Bombers before the bombers get to shoot. 96-12=68 so the new "dps with bonus" is 331.840. With that dps they would destroy the MGP in 9 seconds. In 9 seconds MGP does 4.320.000 damage and destroy about 28 Bombers. In total about 56 Bombers will be destroyed. That's about 58% of the cap. This would get VERY expensive.

Mark IV Missile Guard Post would destroy about 64 Mark III Bombers. Well.. that's in theory. Since some of the bombers would be destroyed after every burst AND there would be AI ships guarding the GP and the Wormhole the bombers would have NO chance vs the Mark IV Missile Guard Post.

Mark IV Missile Guard Post would destroy 2 Bomber Starships in about 19 seconds.
The Bombers SSs would destroy the MIV MGP in about 40 seconds. So um.. yeah.

It seems like Needler and Laser Guard Post is THE WORST (op). Maybe even worse than Missile Guard Post. They both have same DPS but Laser is a bit worse because it reloads faster.
Health: 3.000.000
dps: 100.000
dps with bonus: 600.000

Mark I Needler would destroy a cap of Missile Frigates in 25 seconds and Mark I Laser would destroy Bombers in 25 seconds too.

EDIT: In a counter vs counter fight the Guard Post should lose and destroy about 15% or 20% of the fleet ships. At the moment moment the Guard Post destroys like 27% - 60% depending on Guard Post. The main problems are Mark IV AI planets adjacent to the player's home planet and Missile-, Needler- and Laser Guard Posts.