AI War Beta 7.029-7.031 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!

[DrFranknfurter]

It gets foldouts but these aren't identical, you don't get a warp jammer foldout so i wouldn't expect the idea to get a foldout with the same abilities either... but I was just thinking that the warp jammer effect would be a nice buff to the mk III... and give you a reason to put econs on the front line.

[Tridus]

That would be really powerful. Bonus resources and the warp jammer effect?

Warp jamming fills a specific need already, and it should be expensive to use given what it does. I don't think it should be on a station that provides major other benefits too.

[DrFranknfurter]

I suppose I've just never really used the warp jammer... feels like stabbing myself in the foot, the -resources/s is just too big a psychological barrier to me. It'd be like using a fleetship that does damage/s to all nearby friendly ships.

[Peter Ebbesen]

I suppose I've just never really used the warp jammer... feels like stabbing myself in the foot, the -resources/s is just too big a psychological barrier to me. It'd be like using a fleetship that does damage/s to all nearby friendly ships.

Why not get it and use it to seize spire archives early without putting the AI's core worlds on permanent alert?

Note. This worked on 7/7 - I have not tried it on a higher difficulty setting yet, so I do not know if it is feasible in general, but it seemed such an obvious approach.

[keith.lamothe]

I suppose I've just never really used the warp jammer... feels like stabbing myself in the foot, the -resources/s is just too big a psychological barrier to me. It'd be like using a fleetship that does damage/s to all nearby friendly ships.

One characteristic I tend to notice in players that play on the highest difficulty levels is their ability to recognize a tool for what it is, and to use it to the hilt (and without apology) when the situation calls for it.

Overcoming one's own "Allergic To AIP" flag, for example, allows for uses of warheads which make the difference between lost games and won games.


I do try to remove excessive psychological barriers in the game, but ultimately I don't see "Player A never tried to use unit B" situations as something I'm primarily responsible for fixing

You're welcome to use and not use whatever's fun, of course.

[chemical_art]

Not sure if always true or just isolated:

I find the first wave sent by the AI to be stronger then subsequent waves. I suspect it is because of the forced wait for the first wave as opposed to the shorter pauses for later waves, and the new logic is causing the first wave to be stronger. Is this intentional? Or could the wave building logic get a 5 minute pause before it starts gaining points?

[Vinraith]

I suppose I've just never really used the warp jammer... feels like stabbing myself in the foot, the -resources/s is just too big a psychological barrier to me. It'd be like using a fleetship that does damage/s to all nearby friendly ships.

Why not get it and use it to seize spire archives early without putting the AI's core worlds on permanent alert?

Note. This worked on 7/7 - I have not tried it on a higher difficulty setting yet, so I do not know if it is feasible in general, but it seemed such an obvious approach.

It works fine on 8/8 too, I can tell you that much. Personally I always get warp jammers these days, and the way I justify the research cost is to ensure that I take at least one archive with them. When playing co-op, in fact, the only worlds that don't get warp jammers are our "home territory" economic worlds and the occasionaly "alert distraction" that we had to take, but no longer need. All the "islands" in AI territory that we use to get to things are warp jammered, it makes things much more controllable. I can't imagine playing without them.

Incidentally, an economically ramped up warp jammer (as was being discussed earlier) would be the most hilariously OP, no-brainer unlock in the history of the game.

[keith.lamothe]

Not sure if always true or just isolated:

I find the first wave sent by the AI to be stronger then subsequent waves. I suspect it is because of the forced wait for the first wave as opposed to the shorter pauses for later waves, and the new logic is causing the first wave to be stronger. Is this intentional? Or could the wave building logic get a 5 minute pause before it starts gaining points?

Hmm, it shouldn't be doing that I don't think.  And I don't think it's even accumulating points before the first wave; it just has a set time for the first wave for each AI (based on difficulty, with an extra delay for the second AI player to avoid an initial double-wave), and it gets the base wave size for that first wave (after that each AI has to save up).

Do you have wave logs for the first and second waves of such a game?  I could take a look and see if/where the numbers are going wonky.

[DrFranknfurter]

I've only just started using warheads so I suppose I'll get used to using the features with a high cost when the situation does demand it.

Also, I do think there has been a major increase in wave strength recently... tried going through the wave logic and logging last night to see if I could see the cause. Either way with multiple HW starts the first wave is 2-4 waves with 4 caps of bombers each... by 5h I was getting 4k ship waves at 220 AIP, ultra-low caps, 4 HW start. Snake map so 1 ingress point bonus 2x, AI type gives another 3x I think, gets x1.5 from bonus from reinforcements... had to use lots of warheads to stay alive before dying or even being able to really start the fallen spire cities. cross planet attacks are still tiny though

[keith.lamothe]

I've only just started using warheads so I suppose I'll get used to using the features with a high cost when the situation does demand it.

Also, I do think there has been a major increase in wave strength recently... tried going through the wave logic and logging last night to see if I could see the cause. Either way with multiple HW starts the first wave is 2-4 waves with 4 caps of bombers each... by 5h I was getting 4k ship waves at 220 AIP, ultra-low caps, 4 HW start. Snake map so 1 ingress point bonus 2x, AI type gives another 3x I think, gets x1.5 from bonus from reinforcements... had to use lots of warheads to stay alive before dying or even being able to really start the fallen spire cities. cross planet attacks are still tiny though

4 HWs will make it go hammer-time, yes

Waves scale linearly with HW count, where most (possibly all, I forget) other mechanics only get +33% per extra HW (which is too generous, really, but it helps MP's fun level).

[chemical_art]

Not sure if always true or just isolated:

I find the first wave sent by the AI to be stronger then subsequent waves. I suspect it is because of the forced wait for the first wave as opposed to the shorter pauses for later waves, and the new logic is causing the first wave to be stronger. Is this intentional? Or could the wave building logic get a 5 minute pause before it starts gaining points?

Hmm, it shouldn't be doing that I don't think.  And I don't think it's even accumulating points before the first wave; it just has a set time for the first wave for each AI (based on difficulty, with an extra delay for the second AI player to avoid an initial double-wave), and it gets the base wave size for that first wave (after that each AI has to save up).

Do you have wave logs for the first and second waves of such a game?  I could take a look and see if/where the numbers are going wonky.

I will attempt to provide them later today.


NINJAed: Yes, multi homeworlds are wonky. I was getting 1K bomber at ultralow ships with 5 worlds at start. I'm sure it makes sense, but I had to retry about a dozen times with a laser focus toward starting a fortress world before it hit.


Second edit: What logs specifically do you need?

[Cinth]

Waves main has the logic behind the waves. 

Anywho, here is the waves main for 16 HW fun times.  Specifically, it's a pair of AI8s off a snake map, so max pain I think.

This might be anecdotal but it seems like I'm always getting this second set of waves at the beginning.  So its 4 waves total inside the first 15 minutes.  It takes a very specific start to fend off the attacks.

[keith.lamothe]

For 7.032:

* Fixed a bug in wave calculations where the number of human homeworlds was being factored in twice.



Whoops

[Cinth]

For 7.032:

* Fixed a bug in wave calculations where the number of human homeworlds was being factored in twice.



Whoops

LOL.  Such a laugh. That little error caused about 8 deaths before the 20 minute mark.  Actually, it made the start more tense and kinda fun for me. 

[keith.lamothe]

LOL.  Such a laugh. That little error caused about 8 deaths before the 20 minute mark.  Actually, it made the start more tense and kinda fun for me.

Nothing like a stray *16 to spice up the day.