Author Topic: AI War Beta 7.029-7.031 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!  (Read 13746 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.031 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
« Reply #60 on: May 21, 2014, 03:42:51 pm »
Yea, if you do see it again please do shoot a save (where I can see it happen) my way :)
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Offline Fleet Unity

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Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.031 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
« Reply #61 on: May 21, 2014, 03:44:49 pm »
Yea, if you do see it again please do shoot a save (where I can see it happen) my way :)

Ok I will start that game now and also put one AI to -50% as well I will post it as soon as I can.

Offline Vinraith

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Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.030 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
« Reply #62 on: May 21, 2014, 03:52:01 pm »
Balancing around plots that are off by default seems intrinsically problematic. The "vanilla game" is no plots no factions, to my thinking
And if you have no factions at all on, you wouldn't need any plots to maintain balance.  Purely vanilla chokepoints (no trader toys, no superweapons) aren't all that bad.  Doesn't mean it's not in need of adjustment, but I don't think warp relays are necessary for that scenario.

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and it seems to me that game's just moved from a state where it had drifted too far toward "easy" to a state where it's even easier.
Some recent changes have buffed the difficulty significantly (specifically wave size, cpa size, hacking response, exo sizes, etc), and I haven't seen enough gameplay-based feedback since then to know if it's still drifting in the too-easy category or not.

But in this case, whatever the counterattack posts may have been contributing to difficulty (which is very arguable, at least for experienced players who knew when to pop them), they were contributing far more to annoyance.  So making a change there was a fairly obvious thing.

Thanks for the thoughtful response, Keith. It's a fair point that the CA's weren't adding meaningful difficulty in the first place, I mostly just got excited at the notion of a core game mechanic to break those annoying threat clogs (moreso the "adds more threat until it breaks through" model than the "jumps over your defenses" model). Stalemate situations like those are the biggest annoyances in the game, IMO.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 03:53:41 pm by Vinraith »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.030 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2014, 03:55:25 pm »
I mostly just got excited at the notion of a core game mechanic to break those annoying threat clogs. Stalemate situations like those are the biggest annoyances in the game, IMO.
Threat does get stopped up sometimes, but within 30 minutes it will withdraw to the threatfleet.  And generally those threatballs aren't enough to stop the player from making progress elsewhere so I wouldn't call it a "stalemate", really. 

Have you found them to make it impossible for you to advance?  A "draino" warhead should help with threatclogs ;)
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Offline Vinraith

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Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.030 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2014, 03:58:31 pm »
Have you found them to make it impossible for you to advance?  A "draino" warhead should help with threatclogs ;)

That may be my problem, right there. I developed an extremely high resistance to using warheads back in the old days and I've never really gotten over it. I think the last time I used a lightning warhead was back in 4.X and, at the time, I recall feeling the AIP cost was totally unwarranted in light of the results. I know this has been adjusted many, many times since then (including the most recent tweaks) but I've retained my warhead allergy based off those ancient experiences. I suppose it's time to take some antihistamines and give them a shot again.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.031 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2014, 04:01:49 pm »
They're pretty potent now, yes.

Though the more basic question in this case is why the threat would be such an obstacle to you that it causes a stalemate.  I imagine via transports (or assault transports) you could "run the blockade" and do whatever you needed to do out there, even if the AI's entire threat force was camped on the only wormhole through which you could access the rest of the galaxy (a situation to be avoided, I'd imagine).

Or is the threat large enough that you can't hold it off without your mobile fleet on defense?  In that case, yea, warhead.
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Offline Vinraith

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Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.031 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2014, 04:10:06 pm »

Or is the threat large enough that you can't hold it off without your mobile fleet on defense?  In that case, yea, warhead.

Yeah, that's the issue. More and more nominally offensive resources get tied up on defense.

Offline Fleet Unity

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Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.031 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2014, 05:07:07 pm »
Yea, if you do see it again please do shoot a save (where I can see it happen) my way :)

Ok I will start that game now and also put one AI to -50% as well I will post it as soon as I can.

I have been playing for awhile now the huge waves do not seem to happen anymore this time I only have 1 HW and the other player only has a home core so this does not seem to happen now sorry about that I should of tried it once more before I posted it all I can think of was it was back in version 7.024 or so cannot remember I tried it recently on version 7.025 or so and I thought it still happened it does not now this is good if it ever happens I will post a save as of now it has not. I know the huge waves happened when the champion exo's spawned over 100+ frigates I do not know if that had something to do with it or not  all I know is no other AI types spawned over 5000+ ships that early in the game on the older versions I tried other AI types then to be sure. So like I said if it ever happens I will post a save but as of now it does not.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.031 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2014, 05:09:31 pm »
No problem, it may have just been a strange confluence of events (a high-level reprisal wave is a strong possibility, I think).  Anyway, if you see it again let me know :)
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Offline Fleet Unity

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Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.031 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2014, 05:16:23 pm »
No problem, it may have just been a strange confluence of events (a high-level reprisal wave is a strong possibility, I think).  Anyway, if you see it again let me know :)

Ok I will I am pretty sure it was a normal wave as I remember no reprisal level warning message if it happens once more I will post the save like you said it was most likely a "strange confluence of events" like you said I do know, I do know the save was from an older Beta version originally.

Offline NickAragua

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Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.031 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2014, 05:37:20 pm »
What are core turrets, and why is everyone talking about swapping caps? I'm perfectly happy with my turrets and I gladly accept the fact that I can only meaningfully defend a few planets ("He who defends everything defends nothing.")
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 05:39:06 pm by NickAragua »

Offline Draco18s

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Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.031 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2014, 05:54:28 pm »
What are core turrets, and why is everyone talking about swapping caps? I'm perfectly happy with my turrets and I gladly accept the fact that I can only meaningfully defend a few planets ("He who defends everything defends nothing.")

You obviously haven't captured a core turret controller :P

It's like a core fabricator, but it allows you to place mark 5 (core) turrets on your planets.  And they have a per-planet unit cap, like mini fortresses.

Offline Tridus

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Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.031 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2014, 05:58:53 pm »
What Draco said. The per planet cap is pretty small, but they're so powerful (being mk V) that they can replace the mk I & II turrets.  It's only when you go to mk III currently that the existing turrets can overpower them, really.

There's also a Sniper & Spider version, and mk V Spider Turrets you can put everywhere are pretty great (and expensive!).

The problem with them right now is that you can't mix them: you can't use the core turret and any other version of the same turret on the same world. It creates some weirdness, hence the idea of swapping things around some.

Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.031 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
« Reply #73 on: May 21, 2014, 10:31:35 pm »
Ok, I've not seen what happens with Warp Relays yet, since I've been managing my threat buildup, but I have noticed that a SINGLE ZENITH STARSHIP was causing the AI to give notice it was 50% done with one. Which... seemed odd. But there were other threat there prior, the Zombie Generator dealt with them, so maybe they caused it to reach that point. Otherwise I have no real stance on them yet. Seems that if you can manage your threat than Warp Relays don't pose much of a danger. Not sure if this was intended or not, but seems ok to me. If you super turtle, fine, but you need to keep the AI off your front lawn, of they are going to jump the fence and suddenly be inside your house.

My mention on hacking stands though. With the new change to how it is calculated, repeated hacking is becoming more and more costly, even though I have HaP to spare. Granted my only hacking so far has been Design Download and Research Rediction, which are fairly big projects. I think the scaling increase on hacking options needs to be reduced, perhaps down to a 25%-30% increase rather than 50%. Now I am admittedly playing at the high AIP scale, so I don't know how much of an impact that this would have on a more standard, low AIP game. But my reasoning for this is fairly simple. I am playing a High AIP game, which means I get more HaP than I would otherwise get. IMO, this should mean I can get away with more hacking because I paid for it with AIP.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.030 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
« Reply #74 on: May 21, 2014, 10:54:25 pm »
Ok, thanks for the feedback.

So some people like the idea, and some people really don't.  I suspect practice would be less onerous than theory but I think what I'll do here is move the relays (as-is, without the spawning-more-threat thing) over to an AI Plot too.

Sure, if someone leaves both counter posts and warp relays off, they're getting an easier defensive situation than I'm targeting balance-wise.  But if they're skilled enough at the game for that to matter they've probably also figured out how to turn nobs and tweak sliders in the lobby to give them the challenge they want.

And perhaps we can later expand the warp relays plot with higher intensity settings that add effects like "spawns more threat to join that threatball".

Thoughts?


I will give it a try this weekend. I'm hoping it's compatible with my previous games, otherwise it's going to take a good 12 hours  to get there. You might not get feedback for a week or two.
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