Author Topic: AI War Beta 7.029-7.031 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!  (Read 13734 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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(Crossposted from this blog post)

This one continues progress towards fixing The Bug (10/10 being winnable) but also provides some significant quality-of-life improvements along with the quality-of-extermination ones.  Specifically:

- Counterattack Guard Posts are no longer core-game.  They're still available as an AI plot if you want them (and there's the AI type that gets a bunch of them either way), but their core-game role is now filled by Warp Relays, which can be very threatening but are much less likely to act as annoying speedbumps.

- The revenge exos launched by dying Core Guard Posts have been replaced by a different form of exo provoked by AI-Homeworld-assault that isn't as strict about when the player needs to switch back to defense.  It will hopefully still fulfill the goal of making most AI-HW assaults a "multi-stage boss fight", but there won't be as many stages and it won't be as tied to your specific actions during the fight (so you're basically never motivated to "hold back" to avoid tripping the next "stage", etc).

And various other changes like some improvements to make out-of-memory errors less likely in intense gamestates, rebalancing Planetary Armor Inhibitors, giving Econ stations more energy production, and making interaction between Carriers and Mines far more... entertaining (previously Carriers had Mine Evasions, but on reflection it was realized they probably had all the evasion of a cow on rollerskates), etc.

Update: 7.030 is out to hotfix the Counterattack Guard Post's last gasp of revenge: ANY AI wave could go to ANY planet.  Curious.

Update: 7.031 is out to shift the warp relays to a separate AI Plot (instead of being core-game) as the feedback on the idea rather changed once the feature was actually implemented.  Also some superterminal rebalancing.

Enjoy!

This is a standard update that you can download through the  in-game updater itself, if you already have 4.000 or later. When you launch the game, you'll see the notice of the update having been found if you're connected to the Internet at the time.  If you don't have 4.000 or later, you can download that here.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 03:12:14 pm by keith.lamothe »
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Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: AI War Beta 7.029 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2014, 11:30:46 am »
Hmm... Not sure if I like the new Inhibitor. Still, it requires SCIENCE to be certain. I DO like the end of Counter Attack posts. I also have a question, since I'm not sure if its a bug or not. The new Hacking Response formula is supposed to Effective AIP - Hacking Progress yes? Or do I have that wrong? Secondary question. Is there a way to tell the exact location, in cordinants, of the mouse pointer? If I find that my crazy 4 exo sources games can't be won without the old inhib, I need to be able to place the cheated-in one at the right location, IE in the middle of my forcefields.

Offline Aklyon

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Re: AI War Beta 7.029 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2014, 11:38:04 am »
Quote
(the 1000,1000 is the location, which will put it near the center of the gravwell, negative numbers move up and to the left, etc)
I never could tell how the ilostit coordinates actually worked, but 0,0 tended to put things in the center of the view (not necessarily the center of the gravwell) for me. Are they relative or something?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 7.029 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2014, 11:44:47 am »
Hmm... Not sure if I like the new Inhibitor. Still, it requires SCIENCE to be certain.
Oh, you'll probably die with the new one.  When you can't see the exo because of all the shields... yea.

Quote
The new Hacking Response formula is supposed to Effective AIP - Hacking Progress yes?
That was the old one, it's now just based on total spent HaP, so reducing AIP or increasing your HaP balance does not reduce the intensity of future hacks (unless that makes the difference between a positive and a negative HaP balance).

Quote
Is there a way to tell the exact location, in cordinants, of the mouse pointer?
Not sure.  I think the F3 debug info will give you the world coordinates of your screen's boundaries, so you could zoom in on the point and take the center of those.  But maybe it just gives you the size, dunno.

Anyway, coordinate (0,0) is the exact center of the grav well.  coordinate (40000,40000) is near the lower-right edge of the inner grav well, coordinate (-40000,-40000) is near the upper-left edge of the inner grav well.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.030 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2014, 03:59:47 pm »
Update: 7.030 is out to hotfix the Counterattack Guard Post's last gasp of revenge: ANY AI wave could go to ANY planet.  Curious.
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Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: AI War Beta 7.029 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2014, 04:31:45 pm »
Oh, you'll probably die with the new one.  When you can't see the exo because of all the shields... yea.
Probably. But then, given that I've had situations where all FOUR exos merge with the CPA and hit at the same time... Yeah I'm rather used to dying.

That was the old one, it's now just based on total spent HaP, so reducing AIP or increasing your HaP balance does not reduce the intensity of future hacks (unless that makes the difference between a positive and a negative HaP balance).
Hmm... I don't think I like this. I was noticing that hacking was getting harder and harder, despite the fact that I had a metric ton of HaP left. Its a rather hard hit to my long game, since I take the time to hack most things beyond my chokepoint, as the Exos most certainly will kill them. Not sure what to do about it though. Going the other way I didn't even notice hacking response, so it wasn't balanced that way either... Oh,  a thought. Perhaps the hacking objects themselves can be given Radar Dampening, along with immunity to blades and tractors. This way my hacking objects cant just be oneshot by Snipers, SBSs, or TDLs. Btw, guess what !fun! things the AI's unlocked in my latest game!

Since hacking response is based on spent HaP, perhaps the various hacks can get a reduction in the cost increase per hack. Since the response is going to go up anyway, having a less extreme cost increases would make it easier to do multiple hacks. There is still the fact that your HaP is limited to your AIP, so you cant just hack anything and everything you want, unless you have racked up some serious AIP. Even then, the rising level of response is goin to become an issue in the end.

Offline Peter Ebbesen

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Re: AI War Beta 7.029 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2014, 04:55:17 pm »
    - Counterattack Guard Posts are no longer core-game.  They're still available as an AI plot if you want them (and there's the AI type that gets a bunch of them either way), but their core-game role is now filled by Warp Relays, which can be very threatening but are much less likely to act as annoying speedbumps.

    You think that having a game mechanic, that can allow the AI to ignore both warp lanes (strategic map) and in-system movement (tactical map) at will - basically, whenever a player plays defensively - is going to be less annoying to the player than the annoyance from the counter attack posts, which are a finite resource seeded at game start?

    I can see the new player advice.  :P

    • Why destroy warp gates? To prevent the AI from warping in waves there to attack you.
    • Why build strong defenses? To defend your systems and stop the AI.
    • If you don't do this, the AI attacks your weak defenses or warps waves into your poorly defended areas, where you erroneously left warp gates intact.
    • If you do do this, the AI gets to ignore that you've destroyed warp gates and built defenses and warps waves into your poorly defended areas anyhow.
    • Unless you defend strongly in depth in all planets that are (1+AI tech level) from the enemy, of course. Or choose not to conquer them in the first place - a buffer zone of hostile planets between your outer and inner ring of defenses, so to speak. Or choose to attack the AI whenever it refuses to attack your defenses.

    This seems terrible to me. One thing is bypassing defenses. This is ignoring them when they are too strong.

    Bypassing defenses, which in strategic terms means obeying the normal topology of the map and risking interdiction, carries risk as well as reward.

    AI war has three basic types of movement: a) Free travel between systems along warp lanes , b) Free travel between systems when there's a warp gate at either end (the hypothetical means of the AI sending in fleets from the other galaxy as well as the player warp gates), and c) free movement within each system allowing access to warp lane entrances. I can't help feeling that anything that allows waves that ignore that setup - which includes the current counterattack posts, I might add - weakens the design.

    I found the counterattack posts the worst part of the current design because of how they detracted from it and how annoying they were, but the Warp Relays - as suggested - seem fit to beat them by far.



    So might I suggest that this change be shortlived. It is a beta, after all, and it seems to me that attempting to address the fact that some players prefer playing defensively on defensive maps (rather than open maps, that other players prefer) with "if they do it, let's ignore their defenses and erode the value of defensive terrain in general or force them on the offensive" rather than improving the AI's ability to deal with such terrain in a way that is based on the strong underlying topology setup, is a counsel of desperation.


    Let me turn to something that is already in the game for the obvious inspiration: Player warp gates. A human player can warp production to anywhere he desires, so long as he's constructed a specific receiving gate in the location - the construction buildings being assumed to come with in-built portals to warp things out. This creates a lane-independent shortcut between two controlled areas, that is vulnerable to interdiction (constructor can be destroyed in transit, gate itself is vulnerable once constructed), and can occasionally allow the player to directly deployed ships in very dangerous territory indeed, so long as it is guarded.

    So, how about this:
    • If the AI feels that it has been stopped by strong defenses so it shouldn't attack the defended location and has felt so for long enough that it is willing to perform a deep strike bypassing defenses and also feels that it has it is strong enough to beat a system along the warp lanes within range (tech+1) through the defended location, it starts to construct a Warp Relay Constructor. A slow unit with very strong defenses and no offenses and comes in five marks, costs 0 AIP to destroy. It is constructed at mark AIP-tech + WRCbonus (bounded to 1-5), where the WRCbonus depends on circumstances (see below), and the higher the mark, the longer it takes to construct (and the more time the AI has to gather threat).
    • When the Warp Relay Constructor is completed, the AI sends the fleet and the Warp Relay Constructor through the warp lane to the defended system and beeline for the wormhole leading onwards to the target system with the fleet guarding it along the way. The fleet is responsible for sticking close to the WRC, for shooting at targets of opportunity with a preference for those that have the WRC in range, and destroying force fields over the target wormhole that the WRC is aiming for at any time as well as shooting any movement inhibitors/tractors, so the fleet can continue following it.
    • If the Warp Relay Constructor finally reaches the target system, it moves away from the wormhole towards the edge of the map and unfolds into a Warp Relay, which is immobile and less tough than the constructor.
    • Immediately when the Warp Relay is unfolded, both AIs schedule a normal wave to a neighbour of the system the Warp Relay is in, if any of the neighbours of the system is human controlled and not jammed. After this it functions as a normal (but very tough) Warp Gate, that costs 0 AIP to destroy.
    • If the Warp Relay Constructor does not reach the target system, this is remembered. Every time a Warp Relay Constructor fails to reach its intended system to deploy, WRCbonus increases by one.
    • Every $interval (an hour? two?), WRCbonus decreases by one.
    • Black Hole Machines can no longer be bought from the Zenith Trader by the player and are destroyed upon planet capture, making them an AI only toy.

    I don't have a real feel for what stats such a Warp Relay Constructor - or the deployed Warp Relay - should have to make this a challenge, but off the top of my head, this is the sort of thing I'm thinking of (and may for all I know be completely crazy, but since when did that stop anybody from making wild ideas?)

    Mk1: 100 million HP, 50,000 armor, speed 40. Immunity to instant shots, tractor beams, and force fields (can move through them) as well as all standard starship immunities such as paralysis. Obviously cannot be swallowed either. Basically, any really simple hard counter is out.
    Mk2: 200 million HP, 100,000 armor. Additionally gets a several hundred million point shield.
    Mk3: 300 million HP, 200,000 armor. Additionally gets immunity to slowing effects.
    Mk4: 400 million HP, 400,000 armor. Additionally gets protector starship style active defenses.
    Mk5: 500 million HP, 800,000 armor. Additionally increases in speed to 60.

    EDIT: If it needed to be really nasty, it could cannibalize friendly ships within a certain range to repair itself. But that would be evil.


    The Warp Relay, when deployed, gets half the armour and double the hitpoints.

    The ideal approach for the player is thus to destroy the Warp Relay Constructor while it is under construction (and vulnerable due to not being active or at full health), destroying it with his fixed defenses, or, worst case, interdicting it during transport as it tries to bypass one or more of his systems in order to reach its destination along the warp lanes, and he has all his standard toys to do that, but if it survives the trip to deploy, then he may have problems.
    [/list]
    « Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 05:12:30 pm by Peter Ebbesen »
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    Offline Burnstreet

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    Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.030 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
    « Reply #7 on: May 20, 2014, 05:06:34 pm »
    Peter, this idea sounds good.
    If you make this thing Black hole immune and use exo logic, you even don't have to make the black hole machine ai only.

    Offline keith.lamothe

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    Re: AI War Beta 7.029 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
    « Reply #8 on: May 20, 2014, 05:19:25 pm »
    You think that having a game mechanic, that can allow the AI to ignore both warp lanes (strategic map) and in-system movement (tactical map) at will - basically, whenever a player plays defensively - is going to be less annoying to the player than the annoyance from the counter attack posts, which are a finite resource seeded at game start?
    In a word: yes :)

    Counterattack posts were so annoying to some people that they were willing to cheat just to remove them.  Many of the others suffered their existence but, well, found it suffering.

    Is the Warp Relays thing ideal?  Surely not.  Is it better than the counterattack guard posts?  I think so.  That was also the strong impression I got here.

    I submit that the idea may be less annoying to you in practice than you find it in theory.

    That said, if folks find it really annoying in practice I'm happy to consider other ideas.  What you suggest sounds interesting but I think would ultimately fail in the goal due to the unit needing to cross the chokepoint world intact.  The chokepoints that would actually work against aren't actually the chokepoints that are particularly in need of a counterbalance.

    But perhaps it would work better than I think.

    Anyway, I appreciate the feedback, and will keep an eye on what else is said on the subject.
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    Offline Peter Ebbesen

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    Re: AI War Beta 7.029 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
    « Reply #9 on: May 20, 2014, 05:50:20 pm »
    One thing, though - if you stick with this idea of ignoring strong defenses rather than bypassing them in order to force an effective defense in depth rather than creating unique strongpoints for the AI to bash against, you should probably give a thought to reversing the restrictions on turrests and core turrets, as you are requiring players to defend more systems, and the turrets that are limited in ability to defend in depth are weak and those you pay hard-won knowledge for, while those that are good for defense in depth (by being plentiful in number across multiple systems) and strong to boot are free except for energy cost, but randomly accessible.

    In other words, something like:
    • A player can deploy a full complement of all the normal turrets he has unlocked as base or with knowledge in any system.
    • A player can deploy exactly one complement of core turrets in total.
    • A player can deploy normal and core turrets in the same system if he wants to.

    Yes, this would allow a player to deploy every single turret he has unlocked in every single threatened system, creating a strong defense in depth, assuming his economy could support it, that is, while making the Core Turrets a luxury to deploy for particularly important jobs.

    (It might also go well with reducing the number of turrets in the full complements of knowledge turrets by half and possibly reducing their knowledge cost to go with it).

    On the positive side, you might see people unlocking higher mark turrets again. :P
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    Offline keith.lamothe

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    Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.030 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
    « Reply #10 on: May 20, 2014, 05:58:10 pm »
    Yes, swapping the core turrets and normal turrets so that the normal turrets are the per-planet-cap ones has been suggested a few times, and I think it probably makes sense.  It would make energy more important, as well as the turret upgrades.

    But I'm not dead-set on sticking with the warp-relay thing either, it just seemed the best combination of simple and effective at the time.
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    Offline Peter Ebbesen

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    Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.030 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
    « Reply #11 on: May 20, 2014, 06:23:43 pm »
    Yes, swapping the core turrets and normal turrets so that the normal turrets are the per-planet-cap ones has been suggested a few times, and I think it probably makes sense.  It would make energy more important, as well as the turret upgrades.

    But I'm not dead-set on sticking with the warp-relay thing either, it just seemed the best combination of simple and effective at the time.
    Well, your Warp Relay thing is taking one of the bad aspects of the current Counterattack (wave ignoring terrain and warp topology, thus weakening your otherwise strong topological design), magnifying it, and making it remain an annoyance throughout the game rather than triggered at the control of the player, with the benefit of removing another of its bad aspects (the slowdown, which for many veteran players was an even worse aspect than the warping to targets without warp gates, if the other thread is any guide) and using it as a kludgy solution to the problem of the AI being unable to penetrate strong defenses, something the Counterattack posts never even attempted to address (at least I never thought so, and according to that other thread, some of your veteran players never thought so either) since whether and when to trigger them was fully under your control.

    Yes, it is simple and effective, and for veteran players who are bored sick of the current Counterattack posts it may seem a blessing, but it appears to be hollowing out your game's core design where movement, terrain, and warp gates is concerned.

    Oh, well. This change just strikes me as an attempt at killing two birds with one sledgehammer when annoyance reaches a critical level. Sure, the crater it leaves is impressive, and any bird not quick on the wing is definitely paste, but it lacks a certain je ne sais quoi...  ;)    I'll shut up for now in favour of hearing what others chime in with. :)
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    Offline keith.lamothe

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    Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.030 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
    « Reply #12 on: May 20, 2014, 06:27:47 pm »
    Well, it doesn't totally break the topology, as it does have to follow the wormhole network (it just skips a hop or so), but I do see the appeal in never breaking that.

    Perhaps the relay, instead of its current behavior, could just spawn more threat in proportion to what's already waiting, and at some threshold give all those threat ships a really big speed boost and try to throw them through the chokepoint.  We could rename it the Ship-a-pult ;)
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    Offline Aklyon

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    Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.030 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
    « Reply #13 on: May 20, 2014, 06:43:41 pm »
    Wouldn't they just break apart when hit by tractor turrets if they had a really big speed boost? /sortaphysics :)

    Offline Tridus

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    Re: AI War Beta 7.029-7.030 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!
    « Reply #14 on: May 20, 2014, 06:45:04 pm »
    Maybe this is naive, but wouldn't it make more sense to address the problem of choke points being unbeatable by looking at changing the defenses, rather than letting the AI skip them? I mean, if the maximum firepower you can put into a system goes down, less extreme measures than simply jumping over systems are going to be more effective.

    I haven't played yet with this new setup (obviously), but in the surface I'm not a fan. It feels like punishment for taking and using strategic map points effectively.