AI War Beta 7.029-7.031 "Extermination Protocol MkII" Released!

[keith.lamothe]

I will give it a try this weekend. I'm hoping it's compatible with my previous games, otherwise it's going to take a good 12 hours  to get there. You might not get feedback for a week or two.

Your previous save will still have counterattack posts, and won't have warp relays.  I understand that it will take time to get a broad base of feedback on these changes, that's fine.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Regarding that economic station change, is that really going to be worth spending hard-earned knowledge on in anything but Fallen Spire games?

Compare:

• Military station: Adds a lot to the defensive strength of the planet it is on, provides tachyon coverage, and makes it much harder to kill the station on a non-homeworld. The free stations spawned on your homeworld aid considerably in its survival with knockbacks and tachyon coverage. At tier three there's perfect tachyon coverage.
• Logistics station: Increases the speed of friendlies and decreases that of enemies on any planet, has a higher metal cap than the other stations, and generates a lot more salvage than the other stations when it is station on a non-homeworld. (But if it is a system under frequent large attack where that salvage would be important, why do you have a logistics station there rather than a military? Somebody must be feeling very confident.) The free stations generated on the homeworld aid considerably in its survival due to the speed changes. At tier three there's perfect teleportation countering.
• Economics station: Provides more metal than the other stations and now also provides a considerable amount of energy. Contributes nothing to the defense of the planet it is on, except indirectly through increased metal/energy income if there's anything to spend it on, and likewise the free stations on the homeworld to not contribute anything to the defense directly. Has nothing special at tier three.

In short, even with the increased energy generation, the economic station remains a station that is pretty much worthless if you have a large realm, as you'll gain more than enough metal and energy income from your many planets, while if you have few planets, you are unlikely to have 2-3 planets worth of surplus knowledge to spend on something that does not aid you directly in combat.

Given the salvage mechanics and the ability to transform metal to energy via mass converters, as currently constituted they are unlikely to ever be anything but "nice to have's" for anything but very large realms, where the increases metal generation may speed up fleet replacement a bit and there's K to spare. (Just like the current Harvester unlocks.)

As such, and I am sure this has been suggested umpteen millions of times, but why let that stop me when I'm on a roll, I'd suggest to giving them impact on combat, just like the two other stations, thus guaranteeing that regardless of what your energy or metal needs are, unlocking them will give you a small permanent bonus in the home system. I am thinking something that would reflect a planet with a greater industrial might; Obvious examples would be:

One or more of the following:

• Efficient energy grid: All turrets and forts in the system fire 10%/20%/30% faster depending on mark.
• Improved building standards: All buildings in the system have 10%/20%/30% more hitpoints.
• Hardened structures: All buildings in the system have 500/1000/2000 extra armour.
• Swift yards: All buildings and ships construct and repair 10%/20%/30% faster.  (Though to be fair, this one arguably should be a Logistics station perk)

(Numbers pulled out my arse rather than deliberately calculated with game balance in mind.)

Unique Tier 3 perk: Defensive measures: Provides Protector style defenses for the command station in range 5,000. (I.e. large enough to cover the homeworld command station for the free station spawned).

This tier 3 perks isn't nearly as good for the purpose of defeating attackers as the Military station's active defenses are, but then, it is an Economic station, not a Military one, and the main purpose is to defend the important economic structures from becoming casualties while the military does the killing and the logistical supports the fleet.

[keith.lamothe]

I'm sure the econ stations would need more to compete with either of the other two.  And that the logistics and econ would need more to compete with military.  Did the energy boost to econ (and the metal nerf to military) because they were very easy and seemed appropriate.

Doing ad-hoc bonuses max-hitpoints isn't really supported by the engine as-is, as core stats like that work best with minimal conditionals when there's tens of thousands of the things running around.  Though that limitation may eventually be worked around.

Boosting the rate of fire (granted, just of the static stuff) sounds more similar to the military's attack boost than I'd like.

It could be made into essentially a planetary armor booster (+armor, and dividing damage done to allied forcefields) though there's already a unit for that.  But perhaps it could be worked out.  Though I'd want to rename it away from "economic" at that point, as I don't see why an economic station would be doing massive defensive buffs.

I'd kinda rather find a way to make them worthwhile without getting them involved in combat, though.  But the game's focus on combat (and the simplification of the old m/c/e model into what we have now, with one of the three gone entirely and the other two much easier to come by than they once were) may doom that hope.

Possibly each econ II station gives a 1.01 multiplier to all your metal and energy production everywhere, and each econ III a 1.05 multiplier to said?


I'm also considering removing the military station's metal production completely, as a relatively minor nerf to give additional reason for the other stations.  I don't particularly want to hit the military's combat abilities, arguably-OP as they are.  But overall they are at a point where I don't want to bring the econ and logistics all the way up to mil's level because I think that would be substantial power creep.

Maybe the econ and logistics upgrade K costs could be reduced, or mil's increased (though the combined cost for mkIIIs is already really high).


Or perhaps military IIs give a 0.99 multiplier to all your metal production everywhere (not energy, as the rebuilding rules are much simplified by the assumption that rebuilding a station will never kill your energy balance), and IIIs give a 0.95 multiplier to said.  So you'd want some econs to balance out the load.  Of course, not balancing out the load just means more staring at paint dry (for the most part) so that's probably out.

[Tridus]

I agree that economic stations are more of a luxury item than anything else, but I'm not a fan of making them military in nature to fix that. Maybe the changes need to be elsewhere:

Military Stations
- Produce no resources whatsoever (they're good enough as fortification)

Logistics Stations
- No longer alter salvage in any way

Salvage
- Put a cap on how much salvage you can process from a given planet per minute, and have salvage that isn't processed disappear after a few minutes. Have every economic station you place anywhere in your empire increase this rate.

That would make them still not front line stations, but putting them somewhere that you can will make your salvage processing and thus entire economy more efficient. It also reinforces the niche of every station.

edit - ninja'd by Keith!

[chemical_art]

I'm not a fan of any station causing a reduction in economy. I already completely write off warp hammers for this reason. Plus, global bonuses to economy will make FS games even more at odds and the rest of the game.

[Peter Ebbesen]

It could be made into essentially a planetary armor booster (+armor, and dividing damage done to allied forcefields) though there's already a unit for that.  But perhaps it could be worked out.  Though I'd want to rename it away from "economic" at that point, as I don't see why an economic station would be doing massive defensive buffs.

Make it an "Industrial station" and call it a day?

I'd kinda rather find a way to make them worthwhile without getting them involved in combat, though.  But the game's focus on combat (and the simplification of the old m/c/e model into what we have now, with one of the three gone entirely and the other two much easier to come by than they once were) may doom that hope.

I'd say that the free spawning stations at the homeworld pretty much dooms that hope all by itself, as having no combat bonuses at all competing with "and in addition to what the station provides in any system, the homeworld, the loss of which is the only thing that can lose you the game, becomes somewhat easier to defend" means that whatever is provided instead has to be huge to be used when it is acquired using a resource in short supply, namely knowledge.

[DrFranknfurter]

If it stays as an economy command the multiplier sounds great, though it would shorten fallen spire games later stages without being noticed otherwise. Perhaps instead give it a flat +20%, +30% boost for unlocking it (from the foldout for econ II and III) and keep the standard ones as-is.

If it becomes defensive? Give it a shield so it can protect your home command? Give it armour boosting, counter-lasers (to protect against raid starships) or counter-energy bombs at the highest mark. (move rail-gun pushback to the defensive station to nerf mil and boost defensive?)

*Edit*
If it becomes industrial with an econ feel. Each one increases ship caps? turret caps? (Even 1-5% would *feel* worth it) It would be a buff while leaving them vulnerable to attack.

[Faulty Logic]

I suggest doubling energy production for econ, increasing the speed boost by another 40/mark of logistics, and halving k costs for econ and logistic stations.

Hopefully that would take less than an hour of Keith-time, and bring the other stations back into play, without breaking anything.

[Lancefighter]

Maybe each station should have its own set of resource node things? For instance military stations have half production half giant death lasers. Economic stations can have +energy on their metal harvesters.. and logistics stations can .. +speed?

To make unlocking higher of any given station more viable, make the harvesters scale off of overall tech level in that tree (aka mil 1 can build mil 3 harvesters if you have mil3tech).

This also creates a sort of customization on your homeworld, which can build any of the three trees of harvestors..

[Winge]

For Military station nerf:  I think they should still produce some resources, but nothing like what they are now.  I'd recommend giving all 3 marks a constant metal production (like 24/s or something).  The bonus you get with those is the added defenses.

For Logistics buff:  make Mk II and Mk III also produce a gravity effect.  Keep current resource production.

Economic:  haven't tried these post-change yet.  My current game will have a very large empire, so I'm grabbing harvester upgrades, as those will be more efficient overall (especially since, if I play my cards right, I could have 4 or more Zenith Power Generators...without FS).

[keith.lamothe]

Maybe each station should have its own set of resource node things? For instance military stations have half production half giant death lasers.

Supervisor: Wha... what did you do to that metal harvester?!

Engineer: Well, we taught it that starships are tasty too.

[chemical_art]

I'm of the opinion of not nerfing military posts but providing more of a reason to get the others. Military posts already are nerfed on the front lines compared to the others due to their poor salvage mechanic, and their railguns while nice will not stop a meaningful wave.

And if military stations don't provide resources...why get them over regular defenses? They have a few immmunities...but the K spent there could be spent more efficiently elsewhere.

[Toranth]

Part of the problem with Command Stations is that the Knowledge cost is high enough, and the Mk III payoff enough, that it is only worth it to go down one line in most games.  And the Mk III Military Station provides the mostly immediate, broadly useful feature:  Combat advantages.
Someone on the forum used to have a sig that read something like "Military stations are for defense, Econ stations are for offense, and logistics are a hybrid mixture."

It could be made into essentially a planetary armor booster (+armor, and dividing damage done to allied forcefields) though there's already a unit for that.  But perhaps it could be worked out.  Though I'd want to rename it away from "economic" at that point, as I don't see why an economic station would be doing massive defensive buffs.

I'd kinda rather find a way to make them worthwhile without getting them involved in combat, though.  But the game's focus on combat (and the simplification of the old m/c/e model into what we have now, with one of the three gone entirely and the other two much easier to come by than they once were) may doom that hope.

Possibly each econ II station gives a 1.01 multiplier to all your metal and energy production everywhere, and each econ III a 1.05 multiplier to said?

If you are consider extending the specialization of the command station lines, you could go all-out:  One for offense, one for defense, and one for econ/support.
Military gives large offensive bonuses and has some powerful weapons, but nothing defensive or economic.
Fortress gives large defensive bonuses, and has huge HP, and has defensive features - such as a small number of Widow tractors, or counter-weapons charges.  No economic bonus.
The Industrial produces large amounts of energy and metal, but gives no combat bonuses at all.

That way you'd be choosing to specialize each system you make.  Of course, that assuming you want to have people choosing to specialize their systems.

[keith.lamothe]

And if military stations don't provide resources...why get them over regular defenses?

Doubling the attack power of most of your units when defending key planets (including your homeworld)?

Sure, for that K cost you can double the power of certain setups, but I imagine you reach a point fairly early in the defensive-power-curve where that doubling is more efficient than anything else you can get for the same K.

[chemical_art]

And if military stations don't provide resources...why get them over regular defenses?

Doubling the attack power of most of your units when defending key planets (including your homeworld)?

Sure, for that K cost you can double the power of certain setups, but I imagine you reach a point fairly early in the defensive-power-curve where that doubling is more efficient than anything else you can get for the same K.

Well, that doubling costs...9K? A lot can be done with that. And if playing FS games where the ships are capped at the MK I levels, its meaningful impact is further lessened.