Author Topic: Excited over LF's potential, frustrated by its quirks  (Read 1325 times)

Offline Juason

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Excited over LF's potential, frustrated by its quirks
« on: June 13, 2014, 02:10:11 pm »
Hello everyone,

  Last week I picked up LF, and have been oscillating between extreme enjoyment and deep frustration.  The game reminds me of Guild 2, in that it has immense potential obscured by poorly-documented mechanics and bugs/inconsistencies that prevent players from documenting the nature of those mechanics.

  The premise is unique.  Like most of Arcen's games, this is one thinks way outside-the-box - a rarity in today's money-churning FPS world.  I find the graphics and music more than adequate, and even the menu systems are sufficient.  My problem is the layers upon layers of "stuff" that even with good trial and error I am unable to figure out.  This leads to extreme SLOG - whereby my advancement to higher difficulties is not "harder" it just involves more time-consuming activities.  I'm fairly certain that a deeper understanding of the mechanics (and some bug fixes) might dial this in quite a bit.  But I worry that many of the numbers have no meaning given the underlying design.


Just for reference, my games tend to go:

* build initial funds and pacify aggressive races as they become space faring
* outpost rush
* influence/laud/tech rush
* form fed
* slog getting final few races into fed or bigger slog killing them


   Let me try to give some examples...


1).  AI and Player Influence

   Each race has different priorities and personalities.  This is usually a good thing -  but in LF it leads to scenarios that are cookie-cutter and offer little flexibility. 

   The Peltians have no ground troops.  The Thoraxians or Burlusts pick on them immediately.  So you wipe out the Thoraxian armada immediately when they become space-capable, get 1 race to attack them and they are "locked down" all game.   If you don't - they die instantly from a sneeze of a ground invasion.

  A deeper game would provide us with the tools to SHAPE each race a bit.  In most of my games there are 2 or 3 planets that refuse to build armadas.  These are usually the Boarines and Peltians for obvious reason.  Giving them 3 military outposts, building multiple beneficial buildings, terraforming their world up close to 1 (if it was lower), influencing an Armada event and Dispatching myself to aid their armada building is practically worthless and a gigantic waste of resources.

   Even with 50 years of trying some race/planet combos seem incapable of functional AI.  And the AI seems to turn-off on some races as time goes on.  Like the Burlusts will be extremely aggressive early game, and then just kind of sit there forever once I do a round of Lauding everyone.   


2).  Calculation Imbalances

  Armada and Ground force power numbers seem unbalanced.  Last game I had the Evucks with 300 million population and 2,500 Trillion ground power and couldn't figure out why.  The Thoraxians had 8 billion pop, and only 50 billion ground power with similar technology.   And with the lack of tools to manage a ground invasion, it usually takes me an hour+ to kill off the Thoraxians.   Using every technology, queen assassination, orbital bombardment, ferrying in rebels, dumping waste on their planet and more have only token impact.  Races just don't invade with sufficient troops and orbital bombardment is slow.

  So I guess what I am saying is the calculations appear unbalanced.  Invading the Thoraxians should take 15-20 minutes and not an hour.  Invading the Peltians should take 5 minutes, not 0.1 seconds. 
 


3).  Political Holes


  Another gripe is how handicapped some of the races are politically.  The Boarines have some leaders that just outright prevents 90% of what some of the other races do.  And it never, ever, seems to change.  Maybe I am missing something here.  I usually pick them as my starting bad-race because they are useless as an ally.

  Some races like the Peltians lack options for bringing other races into the Fed or forming a Fed.  Others like the Burlust seem really unique, but also seem to lack some depth or understanding.  Why would I ever bribe the sub-warlords?  I spent 100k on bribe materials on shot them all way up... but no new options seemed to unlock.  Bribing the head warlord always seemed most-efficient.

   Many of the racial differences ARE awesome.  I get the direction they were headed and many of the races do work well.  The Thoraxian Queen is great.  The Acutians and Endorans and Ewucks seem good too.  There are just a few discordant mechanics wrapped up in some of the races that continue to frustrate me. 

   And a lot of this is wrapped up in mysterious mechanics.  Like last game I discovered the Boarines could join the fed if they were facing an overwhelming invasion force.   Maybe a spreadsheet needs to exist showing how each race can form a fed or join a fed would help?  Perhaps a second list of methods for increasing cross-race relations would help too.

4).  Weapons

In my opinion, the weapon choices are imbalanced.  Energy blaster appears superior to all-else for taking down shields in 90% of cases.  Mass Driver is superior to all-else for destroying hulls in 90% of cases, and is the go-to weapon for pirate base decimation in 100% of cases.  I keep testing/mouse-overing in hopes of seeing some added complexity here.. but so far I have not.

The exception being Warlord duels where they have absorption shields.  Energy blaster + Piercing seems best.   And even against swarms, energy blaster or the mini gun seem better/faster than the scatter shot.

I'm also finding the offensive power ups to be lackluster.  I hardly ever use them, because doing so penalizes me more than just shooting that round.  This is even with superior tech vs the enemies.  The little ships die quickly and I can only call them once so it is kind of pointless?  Combat is rather unique and I want it to be fun.  But it can become a grind if you fall behind on the tech tree or use sub-optimal weapons. 


5).  Quests

These start off strong, and perhaps a bit exploitable... and then kind of become meaningless.  Some of them are still buggy, and the combat ones' effects seem minimal.  Perhaps at higher tech levels (which I tend to win before hitting) unlock more complexity here?  This mechanic can really enhance the game if further developed.


6).  Disaster frequency

By the time mid-game hits, most planets have one stat that is tanked to -500 or below.   This would be fine and make the game more interesting, though when combined with the broken AI or buggy production..  often leads to my spending a ton of time "fixing" the planet - only to have it fail to thrive.  Its like ok.. you have ever building, every tech, multiple outputs and your RCI is at or above 0 - plllease thrive!   Anymore I just ignore it as it doesn't really matter so long as one of my alliance members can field a military to keep the Thoraxians in check.

Some planets lack moons, and if the races have no capability for trade (like the boarines) they can get stuck without any means for building outposts and many of the RCI buildings.  So when I save up and build them, it is annoying for disasters to blow up the outputs a few turns later.  I mean cmon, last game my federation lost 8 outposts in just an hour!


In Review

I wouldn't be posting so many thoughts and criticisms if I didn't enjoy the game and want it to become much better.  It is highly intriguing.  As a fan of Majesty, Guild 2 and strategy games in general... this fills a completely new niche.  But the mechanics seem too easy to Grok once you discover that the only "strong" tools available to you are killing aggressive enemy armadas to keep them from attacking and lauding all races so they are nice and peaceful while you slog through the tech/influence/more lauding phase.

Please continue to develop LF.  I am looking forward to the expansion and patches, and hope that once some of these quirks are ironed out that it will continue to occupy my interest for some time to come!

Offline topper

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Re: Excited over LF's potential, frustrated by its quirks
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2014, 02:43:07 pm »
Nice comments! And welcome to the forum.

I will just touch on a few that are relevant to my own experiences.
   The Peltians have no ground troops.  The Thoraxians or Burlusts pick on them immediately.  So you wipe out the Thoraxian armada immediately when they become space-capable, get 1 race to attack them and they are "locked down" all game.   If you don't - they die instantly from a sneeze of a ground invasion.
I have not tested this thoroughly, but I see others on the Steam forums complaining about the same phenomena with the Peltians instantly dying. I don't see it on Mantis yet, so if you have a save, feel free log it as a bug!

And a lot of this is wrapped up in mysterious mechanics.  Like last game I discovered the Boarines could join the fed if they were facing an overwhelming invasion force.   Maybe a spreadsheet needs to exist showing how each race can form a fed or join a fed would help?  Perhaps a second list of methods for increasing cross-race relations would help too.
I agree that more info is good, and the ways of winning are certainly a good candidate. There is a balance point somewhere that the game feels too artificial if the player has perfect information.

I'm also finding the offensive power ups to be lackluster.  I hardly ever use them, because doing so penalizes me more than just shooting that round.  This is even with superior tech vs the enemies.  The little ships die quickly and I can only call them once so it is kind of pointless?  Combat is rather unique and I want it to be fun.  But it can become a grind if you fall behind on the tech tree or use sub-optimal weapons. 
A lot of the specials are very strong. Try them out more. If the small ships are dying rapidly, you probably are deploying them at a bad time. Some of them can help draw fire for many turns if you deploy them carefully. Also, some of the specials do not unlock until a set number of years into the game, so you may not have seen them all if you stopped doing the ice belt missions. Also, a few can affect the planet below (nuke, orbital bomber) if you want to do some environmental damage during battles.

6).  Disaster frequency
By the time mid-game hits, most planets have one stat that is tanked to -500 or below.   This would be fine and make the game more interesting, though when combined with the broken AI or buggy production..  often leads to my spending a ton of time "fixing" the planet - only to have it fail to thrive.  Its like ok.. you have ever building, every tech, multiple outputs and your RCI is at or above 0 - plllease thrive!   Anymore I just ignore it as it doesn't really matter so long as one of my alliance members can field a military to keep the Thoraxians in check.
I agree that the RCI values are a little out of control right now and could use some tweaking, but part of the game is dealing with the randomness and adapting your strategy to changing circumstances.

Offline Juason

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Re: Excited over LF's potential, frustrated by its quirks
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2014, 04:35:40 pm »
Thanks for the reply!


I have not tested this thoroughly, but I see others on the Steam forums complaining about the same phenomena with the Peltians instantly dying. I don't see it on Mantis yet, so if you have a save, feel free log it as a bug!



I wouldn't call the instantly-dying a bug, exactly.  1m troops can only survive for about a second versus 100m troops.  The issue is that Peltian ground troops are 100x worse than everyone else - AND they refuse to build an armada even when I set it as my ultimate goal.  Can ground forces land if the defender has ships in the air?  It may be that is part of the issue.  Most space-RTS have a rule against landing troops if defenders still exist in orbit. 

The difficulty here is how do you make 1m troops last "long enough" versus 100m, and make 100b troops not last "forever" versus 1b invaders repeatedly striking?



A lot of the specials are very strong. Try them out more. If the small ships are dying rapidly, you probably are deploying them at a bad time. Some of them can help draw fire for many turns if you deploy them carefully. Also, some of the specials do not unlock until a set number of years into the game, so you may not have seen them all if you stopped doing the ice belt missions. Also, a few can affect the planet below (nuke, orbital bomber) if you want to do some environmental damage during battles.


Perhaps I'm just winning too quickly/easily :(  I hardly ever get past the middling technologies.   As for them getting blown up quickly - when assaulting an enemy Armada they tend to have 3-5 base defenses, 30-50 turrets, and about 15-20 flagships?  I release all of 15-20 fighters.  The numbers just aren't in our favor!

The fights tend to get harder the longer they go on.  I rush the base defenses to stop fighter spam, then nuke the turrets and begin focusing on removing 3 flagships' shields than instant-exploding them with mass drivers.  At some point I have 200 enemy fighters on me and switch over to clean-up mode while I fly away and recover shields.    Enemy flagships can unlimited-spam fighters, why can't I?

The problem with orbital bomber/nuke, is the enemy has >10 billion enemy ground force points.  The Thoraxians typically have -500 environment and medical anyways from disasters, waste dumping and other effects on them :)  It doesn't seem to effect them much for the time investment.  Better to just wait another minute on fast forward while the Burlusts and Skylaxians ineffectively bomb/invade them.




I agree that the RCI values are a little out of control right now and could use some tweaking, but part of the game is dealing with the randomness and adapting your strategy to changing circumstances.


Yeah but there is no randomness causing certain races/planets to become unable to produce armadas.  Its something else.  Maybe Armadas take some resource to produce that they are lacking?  I see 85% of their economy going into Armadas, but the % won't advance even if I lend a hand.   Maybe the Armadas are being produced and insta-die?  Hard to say but I'll try watching it closer.

Nothing is more frustrating than having 2 planets in your Fed sitting there for 2 hours of gametime with 0 ships and >0 RCI across the board with no wars or pirates in the solar system.

Offline Silverfire

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Re: Excited over LF's potential, frustrated by its quirks
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2014, 07:12:33 pm »
Peltians have like... zero combat effectiveness. So they either are conquered immediately, or build up an armada and become monsters. Most games I've seen when they can remain, it's due to a strong starting economy.

Keeping them alive means keeping people happy with them and then probably babysitting them with armada construction help in the early game. They won't often attack, so keeping them with a strong defensive armada of around 10~ will prevent attacks of opportunity. At least until they aren't one-sneeze kills.

Offline Juason

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Re: Excited over LF's potential, frustrated by its quirks
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2014, 12:41:26 pm »
I am finding that if you are content with losing a few races, it is quite easy to win on Normal.  In my game from last night I started with the Burlusts, and hit them one time after smuggling to the Skylaxians.  In 34 years they've not recovered enough to pose a threat, and have RCI values in the -1 to -50 range.  Not horrible by any means...

How do you lose exactly?  I guess I'm not really sure what would have to happen.  Losing influence with all races as they devolve into a massive kill-fest?  That seems like it would be harder to accomplish than winning!

Some other observations:

1).  Stealing outposts seems a bit too easy.  Should probably up the betrayal counter or something?  I just pop from race to race building/stealing or stealing the Acutians since they build them early and often.  By the time I have 10 I'm more powerful than any of the other races.

2).  Uncolonized Moon counts are unbalanced.  Some races have 40.  Some have 0.  They play a big role in what a race can do via trading and building... so that should probably be normalized a little. 

3).  I've occasionally read about "unlocking new ship types".  Any idea where/how?  Is it a bug that this doesn't exist?

4).  Shield regen is kind of weird.  Sometimes if I go all shields/engines and fly around, they regenerate quickly.  Other times I need to stop shooting, and still other times I need to fly far away and take no damage and not move for them to regen.  Using a special is usually the best way to get 25% of my shield bar back.  It seems like there is a cooldown applied to regen when you take damage? 

5).  UNI offense tech is the only tech that modifies player damage and it doesn't keep up.   It is my observation that defense scales appropriately, but offense lags a bit as the game progresses.  Ships end up taking 2-3x as long to kill, which makes the slog worse.  Similarly, I take 2-3x to kill... so there isn't much risk.   

6).  Killing pirate bases nets +5 influence with everyone, and 1000+ credits.  Yet, I often find it better early game to leave them be.  You can defend outposts when they attack and gain +15 favor and 500+ credits with the race.  You can do the freighter quest and get even more.   Easy way to milk resources without destroying the base- and so not having pirates is actually kind of a penalty big-picture.  Of course late-game they tend to attack you more.  Having some visibility into the pirate strength would be nice.  Are their base counts even listed anywhere?