Author Topic: Suggestion: use integers only  (Read 2661 times)

Offline Giaddon

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Suggestion: use integers only
« on: April 25, 2014, 10:26:16 am »
At this point using non-whole numbers is a kind of miserable Arcen calling card, but maybe we can use The Last Federation to move things in the right direction.

In short: the numbers we are dealing with are too large for the decimals to mean anything, they add clutter, and they are hard for humans to process.

With whole numbers, the amount of steps between anything is very clear. If I have 30 influence and want 60, I need a maximum of 30 1-influence actions. With decimals, there could be any number of actions I need to take to get me to 60.

There's no meaningful gameplay difference between my influence with the Skylaxians being 55.3 or 55, except the first one is harder to read.

When I go to the dispatch screen and see that my efforts will get me .4 influence a month, I mean, that's just stupid.

Please consider either redoing the math so it only uses whole numbers, or simply rounding all the outputs to the nearest whole number.

I'll submit this to Mantis, as well.

Offline Warpstorm

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Re: Suggestion: use integers only
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2014, 11:19:36 am »
I think that maybe the displays should truncate, but the underlying systems likely need that precision (I would limit displays to 2 decimal points).  Otherwise most of the buildings would stop doing anything (as they give effects like 0.01 to medical per month(.

Offline NickAragua

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Re: Suggestion: use integers only
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2014, 11:23:15 am »
I agree with the OP to a certain extent - decimals are useful when the values are relatively small (ones, tens), but when you get to numbers in the high thousands and millions, they're kind of pointless.

Offline GC13

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Re: Suggestion: use integers only
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2014, 12:18:15 pm »
Redoing the math so that everything used whole numbers would simply change it so that instead of 55.2 influence, you had 552 influence. Congratulations, you obviated the need for a dot. Showing a tenths place is fine; it allows a lot of steps in between 0 and 100, which is the point at which they start to really like you. If you multiplied everything by ten, then 100 (which we tend to place a lot of importance on, mentally) would still be considered "Neutral", which wouldn't feel right.

Also, 55.2 feels a lot more manageable to me than 552 does.
Furthermore, it is my opinion that Hari must be destroyed.

Offline Mick

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Re: Suggestion: use integers only
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2014, 12:23:51 pm »
I don't fully agree with the OP, but I recall making a mantis ticket a while back to round the planetary trend values that were showing things like 28.0000000005.

Rounding 0-2 places after the decimal is fine in these cases I'd think, even if the underlying number is more precise.

Offline Hyfrydle

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Re: Suggestion: use integers only
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2014, 12:26:05 pm »
Wouldn't 55.2 be rounded down to 55?

Offline NickAragua

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Re: Suggestion: use integers only
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2014, 02:26:14 pm »
I don't think anybody's asking for a complete math overhaul. That would undoubtedly introduce an incredible number of bugs and not be cost effective at all.

However, I don't really need to know my influence with a race down to the 1/10^9. Truncating the decimal points to 1 is fine.

Offline Qoojo

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Re: Suggestion: use integers only
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2014, 05:31:12 pm »
I say put all numbers in standard scientific notation!  >D

Offline Aklyon

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Re: Suggestion: use integers only
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2014, 05:57:33 pm »
I would agree with the shrinking of the visible decimals to 1 or 2.

Offline NichG

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Re: Suggestion: use integers only
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2014, 05:04:24 pm »
What you can do to remove decimals from display is keep them in the engine and keep the numbers as they are, but if you have something that gets you, say, 0.4 influence per month have the game say 'this action generates 2 influence every 5 months'. If its 1.1 influence per month, have the game report it as influence per solar year and do round-off.

For things that are 0.01 or 0.02 or whatever, then just phrase it in terms of solar decades.

Offline ObliqueFault

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Re: Suggestion: use integers only
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2014, 08:36:41 am »
Is "2 influence every 5 months" really less confusing than 0.4 per month? I mean, you'd have to do division just to figure out which actions generate influence the fastest.

When I go to the dispatch screen and see that my efforts will get me .4 influence a month, I mean, that's just stupid.

Okay, you lost me here. Why is that stupid? I can understand a dislike for obnoxiously long numbers like 23.0000002, but I don't get why a single digit after the decimal is such a problem, especially when it's the only significant digit.

Offline NichG

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Re: Suggestion: use integers only
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2014, 08:59:54 am »
Generally I find the 'eliminate decimals' thing to be more about improving the polish/aesthetics than about confusion issues. People can understand 0.4 influence a month, but integers and '2 in 5' sorts of notation feel more friendly or casual, more like human speech and less like reading a report. That particular aesthetic can feel more polished for a game than having things displayed out with decimals. Obviously its somewhat a matter of taste too.

There is one advantage to integers, but it requires a more aggressive approach. If you only have a handful of different integer or near-integer values that something can change by, then it turns those things into concrete symbols for the player. So e.g. if the only increase values are always 1, 1.5, or 2, then the player can think 'ah, that one's a '2'', and it establishes a natural hierarchy of things that are easily remembered. If on the other hand you have 0.9, 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5,1.7,2.1 then the player can more easily forget which action gave which benefit when mentally comparing things. If you want to go this route though, you have to take measures to ensure that there's no more than about five different possible values that the player is ever shown for a given class of thing (three would be better).

Offline ObliqueFault

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Re: Suggestion: use integers only
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2014, 09:27:43 am »
Generally I find the 'eliminate decimals' thing to be more about improving the polish/aesthetics than about confusion issues. People can understand 0.4 influence a month, but integers and '2 in 5' sorts of notation feel more friendly or casual, more like human speech and less like reading a report. That particular aesthetic can feel more polished for a game than having things displayed out with decimals. Obviously its somewhat a matter of taste too.

Okay, fair enough. Personally, I think ease of use trumps aesthetics, but different strokes I guess.

At least we all agree that rounding numbers to the first or second decimal place would be an improvement. Sounds like it's already been submitted to Mantis, though, so hopefully it'll be implemented fairly soon.

Offline Giaddon

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Re: Suggestion: use integers only
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2014, 01:04:16 pm »
When I go to the dispatch screen and see that my efforts will get me .4 influence a month, I mean, that's just stupid.

Okay, you lost me here. Why is that stupid? I can understand a dislike for obnoxiously long numbers like 23.0000002, but I don't get why a single digit after the decimal is such a problem, especially when it's the only significant digit.
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Because it's so small that I can't even begin to care. When I need to get 100 influence, going up .4 is useless.

Offline ObliqueFault

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Re: Suggestion: use integers only
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2014, 01:39:17 pm »
Oh, so it's not the decimal itself that's the problem, it's that the number is too small to be significant? Then I actually agree with you. Dispatch missions are pretty much a waste of time at present.