Author Topic: New version .856 (Documented Actions/Deals!, Combat Balance)  (Read 2666 times)

Offline x4000

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New version .856 (Documented Actions/Deals!, Combat Balance)
« on: April 11, 2014, 10:55:55 pm »
Release notes: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=The_Last_Federation_Alpha_Release_Notes#Alpha_Version_.856

Restart steam to force a quicker update if you like.

The release notes on this one are depressingly brief (to me) compared to all the hours that went into this.  I literally spent four and a half hours writing out those descriptions for the various political deals and actions.  There were over 100 that did not have descriptions.  And for a goodly number of them, I had to actually look into the code, and into our design doc, to make sure that I gave you the absolute correct up to date information.  In a few cases I also made some slight tweaks to match the updated solar map timing, for instance, as well.

It was a gargantuan effort, and something I had really been putting off; though I didn't know it would be that bad, heh.  Anyway, but it's a really big deal, because now tons of cool stuff that before was just kind of like "what is that and why do I care" now actually lets you know why.  For instance, Smuggling In Resistance Fighters is lame, right?  Why ever do it?  I've been completely ignoring it myself.  But as I was going through and documenting all this, I remembered the intent of that, and the circumstances in which that is one of the awesome-est missions you can have.  You can bring races back from the dead with it, if you use it just right.

The Andors I had also been kind of dismissive of, as mostly I was remembering their kind of RCI-tuning-at-a-distance stuff.  But actually, holy heck, they have several powers that are just of ginormous importance that nobody else does.  I remember designing all that, but when you've designed such a huge amount of subsystems as all this, and then had them evolve over time, it's hard to remember exactly how everything works unless it is all written down in one place.  And it no longer was.  But now it is. :)  And it was really a reminder for me of just how many layers-within-layers of strategy you can do with the political deals in particular.

I still see the Quests as being the main star of the show (and I'm bummed that I couldn't get any in there today), but all these other options are something that really are not to be ignored.

Also in this version are some combat updates that took maybe an hour by comparison, but also have a big impact on the feel of the game.  Thanks to the players in the .855 thread in particular for suggesting or inspiring those changes.  I love the way the enemy flagships feel to fight now, in particular.  The AI feels less predictable to me, as it's no longer just making beelines for me.  I always wanted some "jinking" logic in there, and we coded that in a long time ago (before there was anyone in alpha but us), but that didn't work out well in practice the way we did it before.  What I implemented tonight is a lot more interesting in how it works.  There may be some ship types that I have to turn it off on, we'll see, but it works great in the scenarios I was testing it with, at least.

Enjoy!
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Offline x4000

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Re: New version .856 (Documented Actions/Deals!, Combat Balance)
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2014, 10:56:04 pm »
Lots of new testers today, as it's right before the final weekend before the release (which is next Friday, but these are the last weekend days, I mean).  Still another 13 people on the list after this batch, but this batch of 18 is pretty huge.  If you are not on this list and would like access this weekend sooner than later, just let me know.

Orelius
Aklyon
ElOhTeeBee
madcow
Kahuna
Otagan
articuno
NullDragon
malorn
Lancefighter
falknor
Nubbify
Wahnsinn
5cott
Tormodino
Teal_Blue
chemical_art
Wingflier

You should all have a PM from me pretty shortly.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 11:08:36 pm by x4000 »
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Offline Professor Paul1290

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Re: New version .856 (Documented Actions/Deals!, Combat Balance)
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2014, 11:30:38 pm »
I like where the combat is going in general.

I think I only have a few gripes left that aren't minor balance tweaks or obvious bugfixes.

The enemy flagships don't seem have a good answer to the "retreating player" problem. I guess that's understandable given that the player can outrun most projectiles if they pick up enough speed. Short of slowing the player down so they can't do that (no idea how problematic that would be), I guess the "better than nothing" response would be to shoot like crazy and send a wall of fire in the player's general direction. I guess that wouldn't really solve the issue but it would give the impression of "trying".

I guess on that note, enemy flagships don't seem to fire their weapons much. Most of the fire seems to come from the ships they deploy. I guess that makes sense for the slower ones, but the faster flagships that often maneuver around you seem to be doing a lot of fancy flying but not much shooting so it looks kind of weird.


EDIT:
Come to think of it, slowing down the player ships to sub-projectile levels could potentially solve a lot the remaining gripes regarding with the Smuggle Spacefaring missions too. Still seems rather risky though.


EDIT2:

Ok yeah, the more I play this the more I think some player-ship speed reduction and scaling down of the maneuverability accordingly (full engine power should still allow turning on a dime) would help. Initially I thought it might be harmful to "dodging", but I'm finding that most actual "dodging" takes place at relatively low speed anyway. In that case it seems the only thing it would harm is "traveling", but there aren't really any missions left that involve going for a long distance anymore.
In general I'm getting the impression that there isn't really anything that needs the player ship to go as crazy-fast as they can now, it just lets him out-speed projectiles which is arguably not a good thing.

Perhaps the projectiles could use some speeding up by a little bit as well. The current speed felt fine before, but now that we can shoot farther and we're fighting at longer distances the current enemy projectile speed seems a bit too slow now.

Maybe reducing the player-ship's speed and maneuverability (full engine power should still pivot quickly of course) a little and increasing enemy projectile speed a little to bring them both closer together might be a good idea, provided nobody has serious objections.

* Professor Paul1290 attempts Misery summoning! 
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 12:49:07 am by Professor Paul1290 »

Offline Misery

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Re: New version .856 (Documented Actions/Deals!, Combat Balance)
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2014, 02:26:02 am »
Oooooooookay.  Big patch I see here.... let's get to it, there's good and bad here.

Let's start with the bad though before I forget the details:  Techs.  These are a bit messy right now.  The problem is simple:  The early-game choices on these are bad.  Like, really terrible.  There is once again that feeling of "I dont know what to do, because there are very few options".  Dispatch missions that are worth doing are typically tech/building related, but.... there simply arent any.  There's like, TWO techs I can go after, and they're both useless.  And the rest of the available list doesnt make any sense.  Why is a 200-month tech even on the list this early? There's no possible way to get at it at this point.

Mostly, this causes problems in pursuing important goals.  In my current game right now, I want to get the Boarine's nasty negative medical trend brought up, but... there's next to nothing I can do about it.  I did the politcal action to get a "positive trend", but as tends to be the case, this isnt really enough, particularly as the regent really isnt that interested in focusing on that (despite that it's clearly hurting them a bit).  And that's literally the only possible action I could do.  I did grab one of the two available techs for them just to pass time, but... yeah, that aint accomplishing much.  And buildings are even worse, there arent any of them whatsoever.  The various races are still farting out tech research on their own though, but that's a far cry from me being able to choose and influence things according to strategy.  Not having enough early-game actions possible has been an ongoing issue with the game for awhile... addressing that a bit would help alot.  There are of course a good amount of political actions, but as the dispatch stuff is quite an important mechanic, it needs to be more usable early on, particularly as it's a major source of credit that doesnt involve shooting pirates.  And even that depends on the race in question... the Burlusts for instance tend to have very few options, and nearly all of them involve shooting their warlords just... because.

Dispatch types that arent research/building related are entirely useless at this point in the game.... there's no reason at all to do any of them.

Looking at the list of possibilities, it seems like a bazillion years must pass before there is a decent selection of these, and by that point it may be a bit too late for many to be of use, because all sorts of events will have distorted things by then.   Also on the note of that list, some categories could use a few more options here... more techs in some of them might be a good idea.  Some of them seem kinda same-y as well.... ALL of the ground combat ones seem to do basically the same thing, for instance.   Some also seem way too situational.  Like the one that stops volcanic eruptions... no way to really know how much this is needed.  Are these eruptions common?  Does something affect the chances of them occuring?  How can I find out how likely these are? Stuff like that. 

It's a very nice mechanic overall, but I still feel there's a bit more that could be done with it, and that some of the current ones need to have a more obvious benefit to them, adding to the choice-making that the player must do.


Next, the resources still dont really make sense to me.  One of them says something like "this is good for bio-engineering", to which I say "Okay, that's nice.... and that does what now?".  No reason to mine for these if I dont know why I should want them.  And each race seems to start with a good amount of them anyway, and with a positive amount incoming constantly.  So... no reason to worry about mining these or setting up trade routes.

Also, smuggling missions.  These arent really smuggling missions if the races involved are going to get angry at me regardless of wether I get caught or not, which appears to be what happens here.  Granted, if the player was able to constantly do these WITHOUT ever having this happen, that'd be a major imbalance.  But it at least needs to make more sense, as right now it's a question of why should I bother avoiding the probes?  It also rather feels like the probes are pointless, as the bazillions of turrets and ships clearly know you're there....    So, not so much a gameplay problem, more of a "why in the heck is it this way?" problem.


Uhhhh.... I cant remember what else there was.



Okay, let's get to the good stuff.

The UI.... ahhh, massive improvement here.  For the most part, it's easy to get information on each thing now, which helps ALOT.  This should improve the user experience by quite a bit.  Things are alot less cryptic, though there are still exceptions to this.  EDIT:  Oh yeah, and the ability to see lists of what's happened with a given race is the best part.  Been wanting that from the start, so that's a much appreciated addition.  It's now very easy to get info on what they're all doing.

Combat!  This is doing well.  The changes to the flagships is a good one... they seem to actually care now, haha.  As opposed to just sitting there, drinking coffee and waiting for something interesting to happen.  I like that smaller ships seem to do other things than just beeline at you.  In the escape mission, I had a bunch of them go and sit near the docking station, seeming to guard it, and a few more sit along the obvious approach angle to it too.  Granted, they all exploded because I breathed in their general direction, but at least they seemed to be putting some effort into it.

It's a bit too easy to tank things though, even on the higher difficulties. Some shot types seem like they could use a bit of a boost, and raising shield power seems a little too strong.  Or at least, that's how it seems to me anyway... other players may have very different views on this one.  I dont get hit by all that much in most battles, so that's a bit of it, but still, that's the feeling I get from it. Where even if I do run into a barrage of those yellow shots, they just dont do much.  Most of the time right now, the enemy has no chance of defeating me unless I get really impatient.

Also I can agree with Professor Paul that super-high speeds seem a little... unnecessary?   With one exception, which is smuggling missions, where they seem absolutely necessary, unless you want to be there all day.  But in most cases, this just isnt ever needed.  Putting power into engines is the least important thing most of the time.  If I'm going to do it at all, it's for turning radius, but that only has so much effect.

Some projectile speeds could do with a small boost as well.  Too much of a boost though will just result in a more sparse battlefield, as threats go, as bullets leave the area too fast.   Might be a bit fiddly to balance out properly.

But overall these recent changes have really improved upon it in an overall sense... I have few complaints here, though the lack of abilities in certain missions is still annoying.

Oh, also, rescuing pilots is a bit overly difficult... they appear and just implode too easily.  And heck, it's hard to even notice that they've appeared in the first place.   This could do with some tweaking.


All in all, it's a pretty good update, and the polishing seems to be coming along nicely.  And I've forgotten whatever else I was going to say.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 02:37:14 am by Misery »

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: New version .856 (Documented Actions/Deals!, Combat Balance)
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2014, 03:26:55 am »
Just one thing I noticed - movement does not feel particularly fluid. I seem to be starting and stopping every turn - my ship accelerates to moving speed,  then.. decelerates at the end of the movement. It just seems to.. I dunno. Be weird. I'm pretty sure Kieth has played some Space Rangers, I find it odd (given that the two games have a similar movement system) that it wasnt really noticed. It just feels.. so jarring.

Anyway, other than silly cheesy things with that warlike race (burluks?) dueling by kiting at 1 engine power.. forever.. The ship you start with seems really, really strong for being 'yeah so i just kinda stole this a few moments ago when this race became spacefaring'

I feel like shot speed could probably be a fair bit higher, but I am not sure if theres some sort of intent of playing bullethell or not. It just means that if the enemy makes basically any course change on a given turn every single bullet fired at that guy will just flat out miss. And if hes doing a slow circle, hes basically immune to bullets.

Other than that I just kinda spent 2 hours of the game blowing up random things.
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Offline Misery

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Re: New version .856 (Documented Actions/Deals!, Combat Balance)
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2014, 03:32:45 am »
I feel like shot speed could probably be a fair bit higher, but I am not sure if theres some sort of intent of playing bullethell or not. It just means that if the enemy makes basically any course change on a given turn every single bullet fired at that guy will just flat out miss. And if hes doing a slow circle, hes basically immune to bullets.

Aye, enemies in general need to be firing in more directions other than just directly at the player.  There's a few using spreadshot type attacks, but for this sort of thing that's not enough.  A bit too much direct-shot.

Not a hard thing to fix though.

Offline alocritani

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Re: New version .856 (Documented Actions/Deals!, Combat Balance)
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2014, 04:11:21 am »
Just a quick question: in my game if I try to smuggle spacefaring technology to Andors, Acutians have a -10 influence change, but if I do the same to Skylaxian the drop is 70. Smuggling to other races has -30 drop with acutian.
Is it intended? is it part of any change I missed?

Offline Professor Paul1290

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Re: New version .856 (Documented Actions/Deals!, Combat Balance)
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2014, 04:38:15 am »
It's a bit too easy to tank things though, even on the higher difficulties. Some shot types seem like they could use a bit of a boost, and raising shield power seems a little too strong.  Or at least, that's how it seems to me anyway... other players may have very different views on this one.  I dont get hit by all that much in most battles, so that's a bit of it, but still, that's the feeling I get from it. Where even if I do run into a barrage of those yellow shots, they just dont do much.  Most of the time right now, the enemy has no chance of defeating me unless I get really impatient.

Also I can agree with Professor Paul that super-high speeds seem a little... unnecessary?   With one exception, which is smuggling missions, where they seem absolutely necessary, unless you want to be there all day.  But in most cases, this just isnt ever needed.  Putting power into engines is the least important thing most of the time.  If I'm going to do it at all, it's for turning radius, but that only has so much effect.

Some projectile speeds could do with a small boost as well.  Too much of a boost though will just result in a more sparse battlefield, as threats go, as bullets leave the area too fast.   Might be a bit fiddly to balance out properly.

So I guess to sum up what this is starting to sound like a bit, if they lower the player's movement speed and maneuverability, increase enemy projectile speed, and increase enemy rate of fire, then in-theory that should help most of this.

Shots become harder to simply out-speed, damage is increased by "more dakka", engine power matters more for maneuverability due to the default setting being less maneuverable, and the faster flagships that are more liable to break off and fly circles with you won't seem so lazy with the shooting.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 04:41:56 am by Professor Paul1290 »

Offline Tridus

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Re: New version .856 (Documented Actions/Deals!, Combat Balance)
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2014, 06:32:45 am »
Ugh, no. I find it hard enough to avoid things and not get boxed in by tons of enemies as it is. Making my ship slower and less agile is probably going to just make me just quit entirely unless more toughness comes with it.

Maybe applying it at higher difficulties only would make sense.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 06:41:17 am by Tridus »

Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: New version .856 (Documented Actions/Deals!, Combat Balance)
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2014, 06:50:39 am »
I'm against more Dakka. If you want the enemies to be more dangerous, then more damage per shot seems more reasonable than to turn fill the entire screen with bullets; especially since the hitboxes aren't all that accurate.
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Offline nas1m

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Re: New version .856 (Documented Actions/Deals!, Combat Balance)
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2014, 08:06:23 am »
Just a quick question: in my game if I try to smuggle spacefaring technology to Andors, Acutians have a -10 influence change, but if I do the same to Skylaxian the drop is 70. Smuggling to other races has -30 drop with acutian.
Is it intended? is it part of any change I missed?
Yeah, this has been changed to vary by race a couple of versions ago :).
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Offline alocritani

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Re: New version .856 (Documented Actions/Deals!, Combat Balance)
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2014, 08:11:04 am »
Just a quick question: in my game if I try to smuggle spacefaring technology to Andors, Acutians have a -10 influence change, but if I do the same to Skylaxian the drop is 70. Smuggling to other races has -30 drop with acutian.
Is it intended? is it part of any change I missed?
Yeah, this has been changed to vary by race a couple of versions ago :).

Found, it is .851 - so many changes in these days :D

Offline nas1m

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Re: New version .856 (Documented Actions/Deals!, Combat Balance)
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2014, 08:16:54 am »
Just a quick question: in my game if I try to smuggle spacefaring technology to Andors, Acutians have a -10 influence change, but if I do the same to Skylaxian the drop is 70. Smuggling to other races has -30 drop with acutian.
Is it intended? is it part of any change I missed?
Yeah, this has been changed to vary by race a couple of versions ago :).

Found, it is .851 - so many changes in these days :D
Tell me, i am hardly keeping up as well ;). Ah well, so many changes but so few time to play ;). Talk about luxury problems :D...
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Offline Tridus

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Re: New version .856 (Documented Actions/Deals!, Combat Balance)
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2014, 08:39:04 am »
So, enemy lancers feel pretty ridiculous to me right now. You get a mission like the one to fight splinter factions, with 12 enemy flagships. A bunch of those flagships go and deploy squads of lancers (and others deploy interceptors, but those seem more manageable). If one of those squads gets a shot off, my ship dissolves like its made out of wet cardboard. They're tough enough that it takes a while to kill them, and while I'm doing that I'm not dealing with the flagships that are also shooting at me (and my allies).

I haven't found a good answer for that except "don't let them get close enough to shoot", but there are so many ships on the screen that not getting close pretty much requires kiting around the outside. Wading into the fray with those things on the map is suicidal.

Kiting around the map constantly gets old pretty fast.

It's probably because of the gravity lances, which you can't dodge. If you get in their range, they hit you. There's several of them bunched up, and combined they do enough DPS to flatten me in no time. So I don't really have an option except "run away and shoot outside their range".

edit - Here's the savegame, if you want to see whats going on.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 09:01:20 am by Tridus »

Offline Misery

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Re: New version .856 (Documented Actions/Deals!, Combat Balance)
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2014, 09:35:16 am »
I'm against more Dakka. If you want the enemies to be more dangerous, then more damage per shot seems more reasonable than to turn fill the entire screen with bullets; especially since the hitboxes aren't all that accurate.

The big problem with this one though is that those numbers mean nothing whatsoever if the shots are too easy to dodge.  Right now, I'd say they are a bit too easy to dodge.  It's pretty simple to get out of their way.  And of course there's the ability bomb.  Aside from that though, they do need to go up a bit, regardless of any other fixes.




One other suggestion I have though is to increase the attack ranges of ships (not turrets) even further.  At least on Hard/Misery.   I always feel that when the screen has a huge fleet of enemy things on it, it should be covered in multicolored doom.  In most cases though, there's sort of a half-assed spray coming almost in my vague direction from nearby foes, while all other enemies slowly waddle towards me.  Heck, I can blow the crap outta most of them with the spreadshot before they even get close enough to attack me at all.  Even with my weapon power maxed, I'd like to see them firing at me well before I'm in range to shoot at them.  This might be a better solution than worrying about increasing projectile speed or whatever.  Though, damage levels of bullets DO need to be upped... not for all of them, but most.

Again, this need not be on Normal.  A suggestion just for the higher ones.