Beta 0.871 now out! (Mapgen, spies, Wars of Aggression)

[x4000]

Notes: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Stars_Beyond_Reach_Beta_Phase_2_Release_Notes#Version_0.871

Hey guys,

I haven't really had time to go through the forum threads lately aside from a few of them that I did respond to (and one that I did not -- Billick's on his first impressions).



So, this current version does a few things:

1. You can now wage wars of aggression much better.

2. The spies and intel now work the way we want.

3. Various small balance and bugs.

4. Holy moly mapgen is better.  This makes a lot of things about the game feel better and make more sense (exploration, terrain bonuses, etc).

5. Hey, RAM use is better and your framerates should be as good as they ever were or better, too!  (That's always hard to say with certainty since hardware varies so much, but still).

6. The gutting of the old diplomacy stuff, in preparation for the new diplomacy stuff, has started.



What didn't get in to this version that I thought would:

1. The various social bonuses that are presently useless haven't been redefined yet.

2. I still have a few buildings to figure out how to wrap into an easier-to-use format that will tie in with the new diplomacy methods.



Some things that are coming up in general:

1. More stuff with international incidents, including more options for you in dealing with them -- that plays into new diplomacy a ton.

2. New monsters for the map that will be attacking you from earlier on in from land, sea, and air.  Blue has outdone herself with the first sea monster, it's insanely awesome.  Anyhow, we will be using these new monsters to make the earlier part of the game (in particular) more interesting, so that even when you're not involved in giant matters of international war, you still have to defend your hinterland.

3. We are working on making things more clear with some of the building art for the player, and in general working on some things there that seem warranted given persistent comments about having trouble telling some buildings apart, etc, etc.  There was much distress about this internally today, as I finally realized that we have to listen to you beta testers when so many of you are telling us this area is a problem.  I think we have a good plan, though, and the actual end result should look even cooler, anyway.

4. Music does work now, although the racial music doesn't yet have the proper place to be used, and more general background music will be coming soon.

5. I know that some of you are feeling directionless at the start of the game, with no short-term goals, and that's something I have a few ideas on how to fix, too.

[Cinth]

Cinth casts Inspiring Presence.  It's super effective!

[Mick]

The music makes a huge difference. It adds soul.

[crazyroosterman]

I was going to bed but holy smokes the music this been added and not like a week before realise like I thought it would ill have to boot up this now to find out if this music's as goods as tlfs.

[Teal_Blue]

  Way cool, i must admit sometimes to feeling a bit overwhelmed by the crush of will it all come together in time. But to be honest, you and keith always do a fantastic job, seem to keep your heads and make the right choices and everything falls into place with a perfect fit. 

I just wanted to say this one really boosted my feelings that everything is going to work out just fine. 

i'm tempted to ask if i can help test, but really and truely i think i would be better later on, when you all are polishing and my noob skills are perhaps better than my wandering around lost like now. But it really seems cool and i would love to see how it all plays.

anyway, keep knocking out the updates, you guys and gals are really doing a cool job!   

-Teal

[ptarth]

The major problem I've been seeing from the most recent wave of tester is that they simply don't understand what is going on or why. They want tooltips and tutorials, and aren't getting past that.

Given you want the testers blind and the tutorials/tooltips are in flux due to the mechanics being in flux, the confusion is quite understandable.

[Cinth]

The major problem I've been seeing from the most recent wave of tester is that they simply don't understand what is going on or why. They want tooltips and tutorials, and aren't getting past that.

Given you want the testers blind and the tutorials/tooltips are in flux due to the mechanics being in flux, the confusion is quite understandable.

We learn though.  I know a lot more now than I did when I started.  There are still a lot of things that aren't clear to me after putting in many many hours.  However, we are getting closer to the point where it is going to get the attention it needs.

[mooncows]

The major problem I've been seeing from the most recent wave of tester is that they simply don't understand what is going on or why. They want tool tips and tutorials, and aren't getting past that.

Given you want the testers blind and the tutorials/tool tips are in flux due to the mechanics being in flux, the confusion is quite understandable.

Not an untrue statement, however I've been learning pretty quickly how systems work (is 8 hours played quick lol?).
For instance, it took me 6 hours or so to understand how important it is to harvest those special resources on the map. And i promise, i understand and i am slaughtering for them! (i really like my computing cluster/molecular refinery combo on my science lab. aint nobody gonna take my terbium!)

[Elijah]

I think also another step that should be made is to make the ai aggresive toward you. Because I can't really understand as a tester if the gold income is balanced, if the structures are balanced and to go on, if I'm not challanged to do better.

[nas1m]

I think also another step that should be made is to make the ai aggresive toward you. Because I can't really understand as a tester if the gold income is balanced, if the structures are balanced and to go on, if I'm not challanged to do better.

Seconded. This is already queued so to speak, but it should be prioritized a bit more
I think. Diplomacy can be tweaked endlessly post release, but if the AI/Planet does not put up a proper fight *at* release this will be a much bigger problem in my book...

And I say this with regard to saucers *and* buildings aka regular border conflicts/aggression.

[kasnavada]

The major problem I've been seeing from the most recent wave of tester is that they simply don't understand what is going on or why. They want tooltips and tutorials, and aren't getting past that.

Given you want the testers blind and the tutorials/tooltips are in flux due to the mechanics being in flux, the confusion is quite understandable.

I personally don't understand the point of testing blind in the first place.

As a yellowshirt...
My point would be that a few weeks from the release, the tutorial has to be heavily tested, as all tooltips, and information and feeback has to be double checked to be accurate. That takes time.

Currently, parts of the game are missing, but the parts of the game that are "done"... are not done. I also seem to see quite a lot of work on balancing stuff. Except that all content is not there.

Ie: the existing tooltips building "subtooltip" when building stuff only gives the name of the building, it's cost and the number of buildings. It needs more work. Most of the game is like that for now. I wrote a 3 pages long suggestion to improve those and other pure UI aspects - after 45 minutes of gameplay. I'm bound to find more after more time in.

If data ain't there, it's fine... if "how the data will be given to the player" is here. Currently it's not there.

I don't get why there are so much discussions about balancing. We don't have all pieces - it's going to be a partial job anyway. For me the most important now is the UI, design decisions, the UI, deciding what should interact and the UI. I forgot the UI. I think.

[Cinth]

The major problem I've been seeing from the most recent wave of tester is that they simply don't understand what is going on or why. They want tooltips and tutorials, and aren't getting past that.

Given you want the testers blind and the tutorials/tooltips are in flux due to the mechanics being in flux, the confusion is quite understandable.

I personally don't understand the point of testing blind in the first place.

It's about raw impressions, and it's the only thing Chris has ever asked for from any of us. 

I don't get why there are so much discussions about balancing. We don't have all pieces - it's going to be a partial job anyway. For me the most important now is the UI, design decisions, the UI, deciding what should interact and the UI. I forgot the UI. I think.

City building part needed to be functional by itself or it would fall apart under pressure from the AI and monsters.  So you don't need those to be fully functional to test, make changes and balance adjustments. 

Experience has told me that we will probably start seeing tool tips and documentation elements at about 3 weeks to go.  Pretty sure Chris wants to be feature complete before starting on that.  At that point it really is making sure that last features work well and then polish. Lots and lots of polish.

[kasnavada]

City building part needed to be functional by itself or it would fall apart under pressure from the AI and monsters.  So you don't need those to be fully functional to test, make changes and balance adjustments.

I disagree with that, but... well. It's rather easy to over-resource a game and get a sandbox feel out of it. That enables the city building to be functional. And balance last. "Sanboxing" also allow basically any strategy to be succesful, so more testing. "Balancing" and making the game at the right power level comes far back after.

So no I don't understand why there are so much talks about balance. I understand balance "blocking points" are necessary but there are a lot of those for me. Again, just a feeling, I might be wrong.

Experience has told me that we will probably start seeing tool tips and documentation elements at about 3 weeks to go.  Pretty sure Chris wants to be feature complete before starting on that.  At that point it really is making sure that last features work well and then polish. Lots and lots of polish.

So... that's why the Skyward Collapse interface feels so rushed then. There seems to be an attempt to make all balancing, fine tuning and tool tips and add missing documentation at the same time. Improving an UI is a full time job, not polishing.

[Cinth]

City building part needed to be functional by itself or it would fall apart under pressure from the AI and monsters.  So you don't need those to be fully functional to test, make changes and balance adjustments.

I disagree with that, but... well. It's rather easy to over-resource a game and get a sandbox feel out of it. That enables the city building to be functional. And balance last. "Sanboxing" also allow basically any strategy to be succesful, so more testing. "Balancing" and making the game at the right power level comes far back after.

So no I don't understand why there are so much talks about balance. I understand balance "blocking points" are necessary but there are a lot of those for me. Again, just a feeling, I might be wrong.

Cities were falling to pieces very easily beforehand.  I can't imagine trying to deal with monsters and the AI while my population is killing itself for various reasons.  Cities need stuff to deal with, but every issue shouldn't be a city killer (on its own).

Experience has told me that we will probably start seeing tool tips and documentation elements at about 3 weeks to go.  Pretty sure Chris wants to be feature complete before starting on that.  At that point it really is making sure that last features work well and then polish. Lots and lots of polish.

So... that's why the Skyward Collapse interface feels so rushed then. There seems to be an attempt to make all balancing, fine tuning and tool tips and add missing documentation at the same time. Improving an UI is a full time job, not polishing.

SC had tool tips from the time beta started.  Pretty sure it had the same UI all the way through.  Something else to consider is that you can't please everyone with the UI.  Different gamers want different things out of it.  Most of the time Chris makes a compromise in a direction that he is happy with. 

[kasnavada]

SC had tool tips from the time beta started.  Pretty sure it had the same UI all the way through.  Something else to consider is that you can't please everyone with the UI.  Different gamers want different things out of it.  Most of the time Chris makes a compromise in a direction that he is happy with. 

Sorry.

/sarcasm

Spoiler for Hiden:

And given that game's stellar success and huge praise over its interface, clearly it's something to be repeated for SBR.

/sarcasm.

Sorry again. Every game has fans, from the "best" ones to the "worst" ones, and it's true that it's impossible to please everyone, and SC had other issues which "explained" its relative success. Still.

I'll try being constructive now:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,17663.0.html

Maybe 80% of interface changes I'm proposing could directly apply to Skyward collapse. What I'm proposing there is nothing more than what I saw, and what got praised, in similar genres. Games I would take as an example for proposing how to manage buildings would include : Cities skyline (organisation of buildings), settlers 2 (organisation of buildings), offworld trading company (mouse tooltip proposing real time update under the mouse, and no hesitation to place multiple times the same building), tropico (organisation of buildings) and anno 2070 (organisation of buidlings per tier, and no hesitation to place multiple times the same building).

I don't think I'm in the realm of "interface change that pleases / displeases" people yet. Am I ?