Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.805

[Cinth]

Ah, I didn't see any fatal error mentioned aside from the one that was just the turn count not being set right in the lobby.  If you created a game with an invalid turn count and the save is in the setup phase, then that's just a bad save but not something you could have happen fresh.

Anyway, link for new version text: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13034.0.html

I had one in a fresh .805 game with a 50 turn count.  I did mantis it when it occurred and when I reproduced it, added the save and second set of logs.  I've had it error 3 times out of 4 plays now (the original, 2 reproduced (805 and 806))
Report is here:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=11394

I actually Mantised 3 items today... Hera's passive (changed), Fishery/Rice Field tooltip (changed but should mention Diplomats), and another tooltip related item.

[PokerChen]

I'm perfectly okay with factions not requiring some resource, personally. I've been hoping to see more games where not every resource is a tug-of-war that benefits both sides. It's not here in this game, but unique resources provide more granularity in terms of balance options (sack a town purely for resource denial without simultaneously benefitting from more production).

Actually, that is here in terms of the mythological creatures.  Fish/rice are per-faction, and needed for the mythological creatures.  So good luck using those fish, greek dudes!

Fine on paper, but I'm now on constant Brokkr + Norn + Cornucopia. I have no need for the fisheries or the rice fields I have built.

Please consider making appropriate modifications.

[Misery]

I'm perfectly okay with factions not requiring some resource, personally. I've been hoping to see more games where not every resource is a tug-of-war that benefits both sides. It's not here in this game, but unique resources provide more granularity in terms of balance options (sack a town purely for resource denial without simultaneously benefitting from more production).

Actually, that is here in terms of the mythological creatures.  Fish/rice are per-faction, and needed for the mythological creatures.  So good luck using those fish, greek dudes!

Fine on paper, but I'm now on constant Brokkr + Norn + Cornucopia. I have no need for the fisheries or the rice fields I have built.

Please consider making appropriate modifications.

Yup, found it to be the same myself.   As many of those creatures as I want, absolutely zero risk whatsoever.  Getting lots of those guys for free can be a very strong effect.... there should be a nasty downside here too.

[tigersfan]

What are your thoughts about just making them a LOT more expensive?

[PokerChen]

What are your thoughts about just making them a LOT more expensive?

Don't really think that will do, for several reasons:
(1) Greek Cornucopia: all barracks use up horses to produce knights. What you will probably end up with is horse-towns filled with ranches and minimal military. You have to stock them up against output (or ignore melee units) in order to ever use the token. Once the 5 use limit comes in, then the rest should be fixable.

(2) Norse Norns and Brokkr: Brokkr is actually near a good cost point as long as you only get to use it 5 times throughout the game - it's the Norns that the problem. Going for Norns already required ~30 incense, which isn't actually a small feat. Gathering enough for your first Norns takes ~40 rounds - but after that your only expenditure becomes building placement and human an military food. That's like ~25% normal expenditure.

To reiterate, we need to fix two bugs first: the 5 use limit *and* the 5-turn countdown bug. That's only 25 turns of a 120 turn game. Then we can re-test to see how OP it could enjoyably be instead of trivialising the economy.

[Misery]

What are your thoughts about just making them a LOT more expensive?

Don't really think that will do, for several reasons:
(1) Greek Cornucopia: all barracks use up horses to produce knights. What you will probably end up with is horse-towns filled with ranches and minimal military. You have to stock them up against output (or ignore melee units) in order to ever use the token. Once the 5 use limit comes in, then the rest should be fixable.

(2) Norse Norns and Brokkr: Brokkr is actually near a good cost point as long as you only get to use it 5 times throughout the game - it's the Norns that the problem. Going for Norns already required ~30 incense, which isn't actually a small feat. Gathering enough for your first Norns takes ~40 rounds - but after that your only expenditure becomes building placement and human an military food. That's like ~25% normal expenditure.

To reiterate, we need to fix two bugs first: the 5 use limit *and* the 5-turn countdown bug. That's only 25 turns of a 120 turn game. Then we can re-test to see how OP it could enjoyably be instead of trivialising the economy.

Aye, this.

Particularly as the player gets into the later game, mere cost isnt going to do it, as by then the player could easily focus multiple cities on just ONE resource, or stuff like that.   And if they do have enough, it ends up really not being much of a downside.  Not to mention, it makes them utterly useless in a strategic sense for the earlier parts of the game (which are exactly when you might want something that allows you to bypass the cost of expensive units).   EDIT:  And thinking about it further, it might actually make them useless in the late-game;  late game, you're generally going to have large amounts of fish/rice or whatever to get the more expensive units, which makes sense... the player is much less likely to need FREE versions of those.


Hm.... I wish I had a better suggestion for this.  Simply "causes extra bandits" has already been done and would be a little boring...

[orzelek]

Before nerfing Norns take a look at actual mythical costs.
Gathering that 600 food is non-trivial. And requires significant usage of space for farms you need only for this.

If you use trade - it will always trade above 300 apparently so you won't get to 600. I already mantised this.

There is a by design military disparity between Greek and Norse. Norse get better mythological units - I don't see that currently. Norns are one of ways to actually build some of these without devoting significant part of your economy to that.

[Mick]

Hm.... I wish I had a better suggestion for this.  Simply "causes extra bandits" has already been done and would be a little boring...

4-8x crime in all of your cities while they are out. Provides a soft-cooldown to it.

[Misery]

Before nerfing Norns take a look at actual mythical costs.
Gathering that 600 food is non-trivial. And requires significant usage of space for farms you need only for this.

If you use trade - it will always trade above 300 apparently so you won't get to 600. I already mantised this.

There is a by design military disparity between Greek and Norse. Norse get better mythological units - I don't see that currently. Norns are one of ways to actually build some of these without devoting significant part of your economy to that.

Well, the main issue, to me, is:  It's *only* benefit without real risk (and with not much cost).  Even the weaker items generally have some risk, but this one is A: without risk, and B: super easy to use.  It's almost a small sort of "win" or "fix" button.  Need quick extra strength to rebalance by enhancing the Norse side to match the other guys?  Use Norns, and then carefully decide how many and where you need these guys.... no risk, no trouble.

And the difficulty of getting those guys really does depend on how you set up.  It's pretty easy to set up a city that's JUST fishing spots, for instance (and the bare minimums for keeping crime there down).   That adds up pretty fast.

I'm not saying it should be super freaky dangerous to use, but there should be SOMETHING.  I'm just not sure what it is.

[x4000]

Some of these things could be tied into the catastrophe counter, actually.  Cornucopia could make the counter count down twice as fast while it is out, heh.

[Misery]

This might be a good time to point out this one:   http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=11414


Norns doesnt seem to actually be working quite right when I do use it.   Lost every darn fish I had before I noticed what was going on with it..... 


And the catastrophe idea sounds good to me.... er.... I think.

[madcow]

It sounds awesome! My favorite part of sim city (the original ones, not played the new one) was always spawning disaster after disaster after building up my town.

Who didn't love knocking over their sand castles after building them up

[x4000]

Misery, thanks for the link on Norns -- it was also Skadi and Hera!

[PokerChen]

This might be a good time to point out this one:   http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=11414

Norns doesnt seem to actually be working quite right when I do use it.   Lost every darn fish I had before I noticed what was going on with it..... 

And the catastrophe idea sounds good to me.... er.... I think.

lol, not that it mattered for the fish. Only mattered for the incense because you need some more to plant another set of Norns. Speaking of which, I finally got a (not original) idea for a catastrophe.