Author Topic: Player Feedback requested - Edicts, propositions, and challenges.  (Read 7167 times)

Offline madcow

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Re: Player Feedback requested - Edicts, propositions, and challenges.
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2013, 11:37:58 am »
I think beyond just winning games, surviving through one of the ages should contribute as well.  It would be kind of a kick in the teeth to last until the age of gods, lose and be told sorry that wasn't good enough to unlock something new.  Having to play games on easy settings just to unlock new stuff doesn't interest me, and being punished for playing a long game but losing at the end would put a sour taste in my mouth.

So my suggestion is when you lose a game have completed ages count towards progress.  If you triple the points needed to unlock new stuff, the rate stays the same if you win, but allows gradients as well.

Offline Misery

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Re: Player Feedback requested - Edicts, propositions, and challenges.
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2013, 11:48:04 am »
Ok, some thoughts on this:


1.  Cataclysms.... not a bad idea, actually.   It just depends on how they're done.   What would be ultra frustrating would be to, you know, be going along just fine.... and then suddenly a corner of the map explodes into a horde of shrieking laser chainsaw skeletons and Minecraft creepers and then BAM the whole thing ends because RNG.  And yet, the cataclysms need to still be DANGEROUS.  Part of the problem with the game right now is that nothing makes the player break out of that stalemate.  A strategic situation doesnt HAVE to mean HOLY CRAP USE 50 GOD TOKENS.  If the player can solve it by strategically building a couple of new cities on the blue side, then hey, that's good too, and even that STILL throws off the balance in the way that should be happening with the game.  But nothing right now even pushes it to THAT point.  Bandits are a danger, but they're weak by themselves, they need to be able to add to something that's already going on.

2. One problem I have with the idea of Cataclysms really is the extreme randomness.   But not for the reasons you might think.  My logic is simple:  If a Cataclysm *isnt* happening, or one of them DID happen but ended up getting thwarted quickly without doing too much, then chances are..... boredom is happening.  At this point, the player would be back to "stalemate is happening, balance not in danger:  do nothing but tweak things every now and then and slowly build up both sides equally" until another one came.  During this time, they can probably very safely do literally nothing other than build up both sides at the same time (decreasing their chance of being in danger of losing ever further, lowering the threat level of most things).  This was one of the reasons why I was so much for an idea like the VPs, which would be there as a constant during each game, as they give me something to CONSTANTLY work towards (preferrably with inherantly inbalanced goals).... and with this game, constantly having to do things means a constant risk of a player action setting stuff off, which to me is the interesting bit with the game.

3.  The other problem:   The early game is likely to be really dull (as it is right now).  I'm not a fan of the Warcraft-esque "The real fun starts when you get to level 23895274589!!!!11" sort of idea.  If a game always has a boring stretch at the start where it takes awhile to get to the REAL gameplay (as in, where stuff actually HAPPENS and you have to think).... something is, to me, inherantly wrong with the design.   The wait for a Cataclysm or whatever to occur for the first time would be exactly this.   Some players can put up with that sort of thing in games.... in my case, it'd be an instant cure for insomnia.  Hell, I'd rather start the game IN THE MIDDLE OF a small cataclysm, than have that happen.  The idea of "Ok, here's this map, now do your usual basic build-up that you do every game while you wait for the actual challenging bits" isnt interesting at all, but "Ok, here's the map, now do your OH GEEZ HALF OF IT IS ON FIRE", while a little absurd, is at least something HAPPENING.   

4.  To *really* work, Cataclysms would have to be specifically imbalancing.   IE, hurting one side.... but not really hurting the other.   Think of a map with the red and blue guys on each end, right?   And some horrible boss monster appears exactly in the middle.  What is the logical reaction here in a game where maintaining balance is the challenge?   Simple:  one side does one thing.... and the other mimics it.  Squashing the boss/monster/threat/chainsaw skeletons in the middle by smacking together 2 sides that are, despite the monster, of mostly-equal power is.... still boring, and would be an easy strategy.   With enough randomness, I dont actually think THIS point should really be a problem, but it popped into my head as a theoretical issue, so I figured I'd mention it anyway.  I like being thorough.

5.  This one actually strikes me as a big problem:   The size of each side.  If the player has enough time to build up both sides into being really darn massive.... the threat of truly losing is likely to vanish, because there's simply too much to destroy in the time remaining.   It's kinda like what happens in many 4x games;  there's alot of strategizing and planning and cool stuff..... up until a certain point, maybe 2/3rds of the way through (or some other arbitrary fraction), and then.... it's a boring steamroller, because you have achieved the point where your own defeat is impossible, yet the game is still going.   I love 4x games, but i have a hard time FINISHING a game of one exactly for this reason.  There's no strategy or challenge whatsoever when that sort of thing happens.  And it's possible in this game, to get BOTH sides SO strong (in an equal fashion) that even firing off a pile of god tokens, while damaging, doesnt put you in danger of losing completely.  And with this one, I come to:

6.  As I understand it, the losing condition is when a side is *totally* wiped out.... that actually might be a tough condition to hit!   In my time with the game, the worst it has ever gotten is me being sorta close MAYBE to almost kinda losing half of a city possibly. And that's WITH me experimenting with the larger powers and throwing things off.   This is the OTHER reason why I liked the idea of a different "lose condition", or thing that you had to accomplish to win, because then it's NOT just about "be super efficient and spam 20 zillion units on each side, and then screw the balance, it doesnt matter anymore, you have too many things, it's not possible for anything to kill them fast enough in the time remaining".  Heck, even just taking ONE city can take quite alot of units to do in a decent amount of time.



So, that's my thoughts on that.   I know I sound negative, but it's my job to be negative.  I am "Misery" after all  :P   I chose that name for a whole pile of reasons.  If I'm not being at least vaguely negative, I'm likely asleep.


Anyway, I think the idea has potential, but I do think there's some holes in it that need to be worked out first.    If done right though, this should be pretty entertaining.

Offline x4000

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Re: Player Feedback requested - Edicts, propositions, and challenges.
« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2013, 12:00:50 pm »
@Misery: To your notes:

1. Yes, it depends how it's done.  I'm not planning on doing it stupidly, if that's what you mean -- read back what I said, and I noted that these should be of a nature that sideways solutions are possible, which wouldn't be the case if you needed 50 god tokens to thwart something.

2. Randomness is not a big deal, as evidenced by AI War.  Having a breather between huge attacks of craziness is not a boring thing, it's a relief.  And basically there would always be a cataclysm either happening or impending.  The amount of time on the clock for how long it impends would depend on the difficulty.

3. I agree on early games not being something that should be dull, but I'm not sure which part you're referring to.  Turn 0?  Turn 1?  The first cataclysm would be declared immediately, so you'd be structuring yourself to deal with it right from the start, which is interesting.  Versus just going through some formulaic motions.

4. Well, yeah.  Of course.

5. The size of each side isn't meant to be massive in terms of unit count.  That gets boring in general.  And the idea of cataclysms is specifically to strike down big parts of the player's holdings and unbalance things, leading to further death and such.  In other words, I think you're imagining something different in cataclysms than what we are.

6. Lots of people have lost already, and I would note you have been playing on easy difficulty.  Winning there should be pretty easy for someone experienced with strategy games.  In terms of the cataclysms, they make the wiping-out way more likely.  Probably the added condition of having no more town centers on a side will also be a loss condition, though.  That way you can't rebuild from some pesky little warrior hanging around somewhere.


In short, your comments to me all come down to minor tuning and balance, not conceptual flaws.  At least based on how I'm conceiving of the cataclysms being designed.  I think all is well, if those are your only worries.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Player Feedback requested - Edicts, propositions, and challenges.
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2013, 12:06:46 pm »
@Misery: To your notes:

1. Yes, it depends how it's done.  I'm not planning on doing it stupidly, if that's what you mean -- read back what I said, and I noted that these should be of a nature that sideways solutions are possible, which wouldn't be the case if you needed 50 god tokens to thwart something.

2. Randomness is not a big deal, as evidenced by AI War.  Having a breather between huge attacks of craziness is not a boring thing, it's a relief.  And basically there would always be a cataclysm either happening or impending.  The amount of time on the clock for how long it impends would depend on the difficulty.

3. I agree on early games not being something that should be dull, but I'm not sure which part you're referring to.  Turn 0?  Turn 1?  The first cataclysm would be declared immediately, so you'd be structuring yourself to deal with it right from the start, which is interesting.  Versus just going through some formulaic motions.

4. Well, yeah.  Of course.

5. The size of each side isn't meant to be massive in terms of unit count.  That gets boring in general.  And the idea of cataclysms is specifically to strike down big parts of the player's holdings and unbalance things, leading to further death and such.  In other words, I think you're imagining something different in cataclysms than what we are.

6. Lots of people have lost already, and I would note you have been playing on easy difficulty.  Winning there should be pretty easy for someone experienced with strategy games.  In terms of the cataclysms, they make the wiping-out way more likely.  Probably the added condition of having no more town centers on a side will also be a loss condition, though.  That way you can't rebuild from some pesky little warrior hanging around somewhere.


In short, your comments to me all come down to minor tuning and balance, not conceptual flaws.  At least based on how I'm conceiving of the cataclysms being designed.  I think all is well, if those are your only worries.


It all sounds good to me, then.   Those 6 points were the most I could come up with.  Even being the way I am, I dont see any other real problems with this.   All that would remain is the wacky UI after that.

And ya know, I'd forgotten about the bloody difficulty settings until earlier when I started up a new game.  My CURRENT game is on a much higher one (hate playing most games on "easy"), but I kinda wish I'd thought of it for the previous one, it mighta made some parts of the testing more effective and faster paced..... feh.

Offline x4000

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Re: Player Feedback requested - Edicts, propositions, and challenges.
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2013, 12:08:47 pm »
I really dislike comment like "wacky UI."  From everything I've seen in comments, it seems like what is discussed are some slight tweaks and additions to an overall excellent UI.  But some folks make broad generalizations like we need to restart from scratch or something, when they really mean two 20-minute additions.  Often things we had already planned to do, but just haven't because it's freaking alpha. ;)  Most notably stats on buildings and units you have in a tooltip at the top of the screen.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Player Feedback requested - Edicts, propositions, and challenges.
« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2013, 12:43:40 pm »
I really dislike comment like "wacky UI."  From everything I've seen in comments, it seems like what is discussed are some slight tweaks and additions to an overall excellent UI.  But some folks make broad generalizations like we need to restart from scratch or something, when they really mean two 20-minute additions.  Often things we had already planned to do, but just haven't because it's freaking alpha. ;)  Most notably stats on buildings and units you have in a tooltip at the top of the screen.


Heh, for the most part it's fine, really.   The overall design is sound, indeed, I wont disagree with that one.

Dont take too much from a comment like that from me;  often just me being sarcastic or sometimes rather irritable.  I really do tend to sound that way even in relation to things that I really, really like.   I dont really mean to do that, but I still end up spouting lines like that.

Aside from implementing the remaining whatsits to make that idea work, I dont actually think there's really hardly anything else wrong.   Overall, I'll be anxious to try the new changes, when those are done.    Good luck to ya with that.   Hopefully it wont be too much trouble to get it in that small amount of time, but you guys seem pretty good at that.

Offline x4000

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Re: Player Feedback requested - Edicts, propositions, and challenges.
« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2013, 12:46:11 pm »
Appreciated. :)
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Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Player Feedback requested - Edicts, propositions, and challenges.
« Reply #52 on: May 08, 2013, 01:18:32 pm »
Definitely sounds like the best solution to me in the time frame that is left. Oh, I should say that I specifically came up with the weather thing because it sounded feasible to me. Stick a physics based windstorm weather effect (which you already have) over the island, randomly smite a few tiles with a rough lighting strike effect, and that's it. I guess it's not as simple as that, though, and must be a lot less feasible than I thought. Just wanted to make it clear that I did at least try to come up with a low-resources solution and wasn't attempting to just spout out pie-in-the-sky ideas.

Offline x4000

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Re: Player Feedback requested - Edicts, propositions, and challenges.
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2013, 01:19:46 pm »
No worries, I appreciate it. :)
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Offline Teal_Blue

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Re: Player Feedback requested - Edicts, propositions, and challenges.
« Reply #54 on: May 08, 2013, 07:20:22 pm »
This sounds really, really, really COOL!!!!!!   :)

And the best of all the ideas, straightforward and carrot and deep and different each time. And the gating seems appropriate for beginners to the game who come in and then go up the ladder in complexity of their games.

It really really sounds cool! This i really really want to play!
Thank you for wading through all the grief and chaos and back and forth! This really sounds like the best version of what both the studio and what the players see this game as being!

Sorry for the drama, i just lose my head sometimes. Last time it took me weeks to find it! :)
-Teal


Offline JAlfredGoodwin

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Re: Player Feedback requested - Edicts, propositions, and challenges.
« Reply #55 on: May 08, 2013, 11:53:07 pm »
Maybe the Gods arent presents, and arent your employees, but neigborhood kids who broke into your yard and are trying to go swim in your pool?

Offline x4000

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Re: Player Feedback requested - Edicts, propositions, and challenges.
« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2013, 08:38:39 am »
Hahahaha. :)
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Offline madcow

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Re: Player Feedback requested - Edicts, propositions, and challenges.
« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2013, 09:31:04 am »
By the way. An idea that occurs to me that keeps the theme of drawing out conflict etc. if you have mythic/god abilities affect the rate of cataclysms, perhaps the amount of bloodshed could as well?  If there's more carnage, your boss is less likely to throw a monkey wrench into things. If he thinks things aren't bloody enough he'll be more inclined to.  This shouldn't obviously completely allow you to bypass cataclysms of course. But seems to keep nicely with the (original) theme of wanting to keep things violent.  Thematically, your job is to cause carnage without wiping everybody out so the mortals will fear/worship the gods etc.  and if you're not keeping things bloody enough your boss decides he needs to "help" much to your chagrin.

Offline Mick

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Re: Player Feedback requested - Edicts, propositions, and challenges.
« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2013, 09:39:19 am »
By the way. An idea that occurs to me that keeps the theme of drawing out conflict etc. if you have mythic/god abilities affect the rate of cataclysms, perhaps the amount of bloodshed could as well?  If there's more carnage, your boss is less likely to throw a monkey wrench into things. If he thinks things aren't bloody enough he'll be more inclined to.  This shouldn't obviously completely allow you to bypass cataclysms of course. But seems to keep nicely with the (original) theme of wanting to keep things violent.  Thematically, your job is to cause carnage without wiping everybody out so the mortals will fear/worship the gods etc.  and if you're not keeping things bloody enough your boss decides he needs to "help" much to your chagrin.

I'm personally not into mechanics that force you to have such a conflict of interest. I think that would be frustrating to most players.

"Why am I so bad at this game, any advice?"

"Well, are you keeping things balanced?"

"Yeah."

"Well, you have to keep things unbalanced, but not too unbalanced. If you make things too balanced, then the game will unbalance things."

"..." *Closes game, writes angry review on Metacritic, plays something else*

Offline x4000

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Re: Player Feedback requested - Edicts, propositions, and challenges.
« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2013, 09:41:54 am »
To some extent that is the premise of this game in general: follow your goals, but hurt yourself in the process, but not TOO much.  That said, there's definitely a line there, and if there are too many ways to accidentally hurt yourself, that gets extremely un-fun.  I think that the ways of hurting yourself need to be broad and obvious and semi-rare in terms of decisions.  And they need to net you some positive stuff as well, so that you feel like you've managed a triumph despite taking some unavoidable losses on your own side.  With the cataclysms, and inciting players to use god powers to deal with them, that's really the sort of design I'm going for.  We'll see how that goes. ;)
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