Author Topic: Star Ruler 2  (Read 15378 times)

Offline zespri

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Re: Star Ruler 2
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2015, 10:46:33 pm »
I wonder how Star Ruler 1 compares with Star Ruler 2? Is Star ruler 1 is an interesting game on it's own, or is Star Ruler 2  better in most respects?

Offline kasnavada

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Re: Star Ruler 2
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2015, 04:16:00 am »
What you asked really can't be much answered.

What would have been interesting stuff to me in the first game mostly did not work IMO.

For example:
- scaling a ship required to change every single element in the ship. May have been interesting if scaling worked, now it does.
- colonizing => they removed the buildings and most of the colony management, now it's much more pleasant to manage hundreds of planets. In SR 1, getting a colony up the the point where it could make something was a chore.
- starting a game in SR1 required mostly to know how the mechanic works. In SR2 the game requires more knowledge of how it works in function of how it advances.
- (...)

Most aspects of the game can be compared like this more or less. The first game was more "complex" but only in the sense that making anything working required unintuitive stuff and / or loads of micro. For me, that's "bad" complexity. That's "the game requires this otherwise my empire will crumble set of 1 to 100 rules" instead of "there is a strategic choice in getting that ressource, but I might risk a war" complexity.

Basically, whatever I did when I played SR1 felt like trying to beat up the mechanics of the game, and not beating up my opponents. Made for a passable sandbox for me. In SR2 I'm playing against my opponents.

Then again, some people actively look for games like SR1 when playing 4X.

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Star Ruler 2
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2015, 01:40:21 pm »
Hey this economy system actually sounds interesting, I might try it out.

On micromanagement: I use the five-year-old rule of thumb - if I could delegate the task to a five-year-old I don't want to have to do it myself.

That's an interesting rule to judge gameplay elements

I would go even further, if you make a 4x then micromanagement should not even be part of your game design. 4X to me is all about macro-effects. Mass application of rules and systems, abstraction layers and large ever growing scale but with an element of depth in form of characters, story and emotional up and downs.

But... BUT! But!!! -> If you make gameplay elements in a 4x simple and easy to use and abstract, you are also reducing the contact area and emotional attachment that a player has with/to your game. This is why total mass-market stream-lining of a 4X can lead to absolutely HORRIBLE generic and shallow but pretty, trite (Endless Space / Endless Legends). On the other end of the spectrum too much micro in too many systems, leads to Distant Worlds, or the "animated excel spreadsheet with macros" as I like to call it. :)

So I dunno really.. maybe 4x games are not for me anymore...

Video# https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf57myMJKyg

I want a macro 4x game with combat like that but scaled up to galactic scale, and starting on small scale. Modernized, with larger and ever growing fleets and many more ships in the blob, simulation of all projectiles, shields, engines, armor, crew moral, fatigue and command cohesion.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Star Ruler 2
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2015, 01:42:25 pm »
I really didn't like Star ruler 1, and I wish I could've gotten a refund on it.


This is why:



ASCII games are more visually interesting than this! I had read about gigantic space battles (which, if anyone knows me, is what I continually am looking for in a game). But instead I got triangle wars or whatever the hell this is. I was so disappointed that I purchased this.


And really, if you look around at 4x nowadays, diplomacy has never been addicting. There's never been a special sauce about diplomacy in any 4x game. The closest maybe, Crusader Kings 2. Because the whole game is about relationships. But besides that, it's just never been fun. I never feel like my relationship with the AI is developing, or mysterious, or entertaining, or something that I want to know more about. I always feel like I'm just trying to manipulate some statistic to get what I want in a trade or something like that. And 4X acknowledges that, because that x means exploit!


So if you don't have diplomacy, and exploration is just a means to enhance extermination, and expansion is just a means to enhance extermination, your extermination gameplay better be on point! I feel that this failed with this game.
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Offline kasnavada

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Re: Star Ruler 2
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2015, 05:27:16 am »
Quote
But... BUT! But!!! -> If you make gameplay elements in a 4x simple and easy to use and abstract, you are also reducing the contact area and emotional attachment that a player has with/to your game.

I totally disagree with that part actually. While there is a crowd of people which keep claiming the contrary, 4X are not a special kind of game which requires a heavy rule complexity for "contact area and emotional attachment". Or even from being good in the first place. I'd concede that 4X games will always have more rules than a FPS, but piling rules on them won't make them "better".

4X games are games. And like all games, what people like about it will be different. I mean, I hate counter strike yet there are millions liking it. And, the "ruleset" there is very simple. Go is the same, very simple ruleset. How many fans of the games ? While they're not 4X, it's the same with 4X games. I'd take most strategy / management board games as an example. I do and will find a lot of people with strong attachment to them despite (necessarily) simpler ruleset. 4X space computer games sadly have most of the production aimed for the last 2 decades at "master of orion 2 level of micro-management" fans, but FINALLY, we are getting out of it.


Quote
This is why total mass-market stream-lining of a 4X can lead to absolutely HORRIBLE generic and shallow but pretty, trite (Endless Space / Endless Legends). On the other end of the spectrum too much micro in too many systems, leads to Distant Worlds, or the "animated excel spreadsheet with macros" as I like to call it. :)

Endless Space and Endless Legend are actually what I expect from a 4X - focus on managing an empire, with the right amount of tactical combat. not that the game don't have flaws - they do. But I long for other works of this quality. Firaxis with Civilization 5 or X-com are also moving in that direction. Finally, as far as I can tell, Arcen Games aims around the Civ5 design philosophy and level of complexity in its games.

I'm probably going to go against everyone's opinion, but while I like the system management, the best part of Endless Space is how they designed the combat system. I think they started on the base that "combat is pointless in a 4X". Then moved into making combat a continuation of your empire growth rather than a series of unbalancing mini-games. For Endless legend, they focused on making it a "war" game and changed the research and region management to accommodate for that. Also, in my opinion, their work on making the factions different is currently on par with what was done with Starcraft. So leagues ahead of most competition.

(I played stardrive2 recently. I remember the (heavy) flaws of moo2 when I play it now... Like moo2, the awful "1 can research only 1 of 3, the blatant balance problem inherent of population producing +2 to -2 of a resource on a base of 3, the sheer amount of micro-management actions to be done every turn... and stardrive 2 also adds flaws of its own compared to moo2, like bugs and the ground combat).

(About combat in a 4X, basically, it's nearly always pointless. I mean, either you've won because you've got a technological advantage, or you've won because you've out produced your opponent. Most 4X games "tactical combat" is garbage because a player will be able to fight and win fights with heavy tech / number disadvantage. Just because the game's AI can't handle playing 2 mini-games. Check Stardrive 2 for a particularly bad example, or the whole of the Civ series. And, about what I said with arcen's level of complexity... what are they doing in SBR again ?).

My opinion is that starting with moo2, the 4X space forum have been spammed with a significant quantity of people that equates "lots of micro" to "good deep engaging 4X game". I don't contradict that people that have the mental capacity to handle that amount of rules, resist the amount of boredom necessary to do all these actions every turns for games lasting for potentially days or weeks form a deep emotional link to something that's finally capable of requiring those "skills" unnecessary in most activities. And those people, by nature, tend to never stop. But that does not mean that all 4X games have to be judged only by their paradoxically "narrow" mindset. 4X games, like all games, can be simpler... yet engaging and deep (keyword is "can", most games do fail, whatever their level of complexity is, to be engaging and deep).

I'm truly happy that games that do not cater to that mindset start going out.

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Star Ruler 2
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2015, 10:07:08 am »
My problem with Endless Legend and Endless Space is mainly that they removed so much depth that every round (or rather, playthrough) is the exact same and that bores me too. Maybe 4x games are just not for me, but I find both extremes (moo2 vs Beyond Earth as well as Endless Legends/Space) of game design horribly boring nowadays. I just can't bring myself to play them more than once. Because they offer nothing randomly UNIQUE per playthrough... ;/
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Offline kasnavada

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Re: Star Ruler 2
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2015, 11:17:45 am »
What's the most surprising to me is that Endless space & legend are really, really far from "extreme removal" of anything. Moo might be 8/10 on the micro scale but Endless Space is 5/10 at worst, Legend about the same. Your definition of "depth" must be really far from mine then.

Anyway, on a "global" scale, to me most games can be deep, as long as there are enough variation in gameplay for a game to require your entire brainpower in order to proceed. That includes "simple" games like Counter Strike or Go to games like Crusader Kings or Moo2 or Endless Space.

Then, the human brain has a limit. If you set-up too much knowledge & rules about how the game is supposed to be working, you're going to have players which are limited in thinking ahead. I personally don't plan much 5 turns ahead when I know I'll need 10 minutes of micro to push "end turn" and that the 5th turn is nearly one hour in the future. I focus on making those minutes go faster. In "go" most of your attention and your time will be about predicting opponent's moves and your own, while a game like Moo will "mostly" have you think about micro-managing your empire with a small part of the gameplay being "how to beat up your opponent and planning ahead".


So, no... a more complex ruleset does not make any game deeper. If anything, it's risking making the game shallower. More possible actions usually become "dumb predictable", "should be automated" or, as histidine put it, what the "five-year old rule" should have excluded - but you have to do those actions, despite those never requiring much planning, nor brain, nor anything beside a large amount of patience. On the other side, I do agree that less actions also have risks, most blatant the risk of not having enough to do for the game to require skill & brainpower in the first place, like Tic Tac Toe or Monopoly.

Anyway, that's why I'll disagree to any attempt at stating Endless Space & legend being on the shallow side of the deep / shallow scale. IMO, it's a ridiculous concept at best to consider "deep" equal to "number of rules in a game". Then again, there is no set definition of "deep" anyway. So...


What's the most surprising to me is that Endless space & legend are really, really far from "extreme removal" of anything. Moo might be 8/10 on the micro scale but Endless Space is 5/10 at worst, Legend about the same. Your definition of "depth" must be really far from mine then.

Anyway, on a "global" scale, to me most games can be deep, as long as there are enough variation in gameplay for a game to require your entire brainpower in order to proceed. That includes "simple" games like Counter Strike or Go to games like Crusader Kings or Moo2 or Endless Space.

Then, the human brain has a limit. If you set-up too much knowledge & rules about how the game is supposed to be working, you're going to have players which are limited in thinking ahead. I personally don't plan much 5 turns ahead when I know I'll need 10 minutes of micro to push "end turn" and that the 5th turn is nearly one hour in the future. I focus on making those minutes go faster. In "go" most of your attention and your time will be about predicting opponent's moves and your own, while a game like Moo will "mostly" have you think about micro-managing your empire with a small part of the gameplay being "how to beat up your opponent and planning ahead".


So, no... a more complex ruleset does not make any game deeper. If anything, it's risking making the game shallower. More possible actions usually become "dumb predictable", "should be automated" or, as histidine put it, what the "five-year old rule" should have excluded. I do agree that less actions also have risks, most blatant the risk of not having enough to do for the game to require skill & brainpower in the first place, like Tic Tac Toe or Monopoly.

Anyway, that's why I'll disagree to any attempt at stating Endless Space & legend being on the shallow side of the deep / shallow scale. It's a ridiculous concept at best to consider "deep" equal to "number of rules in a game".


PS: Wall of text... just to say there is no link between removing depth and a game being repetitive.
To me, your problem is that you seem to have a larger view of things. You don't seem to see anymore the differences between gameplays. As for the cause... maybe from the other game types you've been playing recently with guaranteed more diverse playthrough ? Dunno. Not sure if you'd want to speak about it. I'd be interested though, I've been trying to design a game and finding out why some people seem bored with game genres they previously like / loved would probably provide nice insights.

« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 11:31:59 am by kasnavada »

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Star Ruler 2
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2015, 12:55:33 pm »
You are quite right in assuming I don't mean micromanagement or complex rules with depth. Depth of gameplay is to me a measure on how many points of contact a game has with my brain and emotions (empathy, fun, wonder) but also how many situations I can have during my interactions that cause emergent gameplay. Meaning gameplay changes I could not blatantly (attack this -> War) predict, that add some kind of "unique flavor" to my playthrough of a 4x ;)

Or better put, so far there is no space 4x that has emergent gameplay whatsoever. There is no procedural dynamic story driven Europe Universalis in space. (A game that, with a bit LESS micro-management and a bit MORE emergent gameplay, would probably be one of my favorites, assuming mechanical issues like space fleet combat and an ever growing scale etc. were properly handled). And a *dynamic* story were there so that no playthrough has me decide the same things on the basis of the same situational values, ever.

It's also worth noting that I never hated a 4x so far. But I always grew bored of them after 1 (complete) playthrough.

Maybe it is related to the fact that I don't usually play games for their superb gameplay, but for their story and how much (or how little) I was immersed in the universe and mood (flavor) the game created in a playthrough.

Imo the absolute, ABSOLUTE worst (in terms of the above mentioned flavor) 4x EVER made is Beyond Earth. Yeah, at first you are enamored by the new world, but once you win? You get the end-screen with 3 lines of text and that's it. You talk to anyone diplomatically? They are all the same. The aliens? Nothing but a minor hassle, devoid of their own unique flavor even. Units magically upgrade based on some weird morality system that's defined by what you *research* -> Quests essentially give you number boosts and morality and that's it. But they do not write an emergent story. This is such a HUGE issue imo when you remember that Alpha Centauri, back when it released, was immersive and even emergent. Your gameplay actions could lead to vastly different playthroughs. Not many, but at least more than 1.

Important to note: When I say worst, I mean relative to flavor and how well it was executed) That does not mean it is necessarily a "bad" game, from a pure gameplay standpoint. I did play EVERY 4x ever made, ... have to admit, I played MOO3 (with giant ton of mods) a lot more than I ever played MOO2. If Moo3 hadn't been hampered by the issues that mods later fixed, the few issues mods could not fix, and by the HORRIBLE engine, it would have been my absolute favorite 4x for a while, that while being until in my gaming taste I found emergent gameplay far more rewarding and interesting than just basic action/reaction gameplay that most if not all 4x are.

When it comes down to it, I found Endless Space simply boring. It had the initial wonder factor, a nice slick UI, nice atmosphere, but the more you play it the more you notice that nothing is emergent or dynamic. There is a certain way to play (and luck, considering you can actually lose the game if you simply can not find certain resources). And once I beat it once I literally never came back.

Also, since this is a Star Ruler 2 topic, this is literally what I mean when I say a game needs more than just raw gameplay. A game needs to write a randomly... unique story (that I experience), based on emergence and (my) choice.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 01:01:02 pm by eRe4s3r »
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Star Ruler 2
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2015, 01:02:56 pm »
Eraser, you might get more mileage out of a space game with a storyline. Yeah, there's only one play through, but you would get more hours of enjoyment, and your money's worth out of it. You might like RPG's better.
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Offline kasnavada

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Re: Star Ruler 2
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2015, 02:23:51 pm »
@eRe4s3r, thx for that post, explains things nicely =).

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Star Ruler 2
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2015, 10:41:48 pm »
Eraser, you might get more mileage out of a space game with a storyline. Yeah, there's only one play through, but you would get more hours of enjoyment, and your money's worth out of it. You might like RPG's better.

Yeah, and that right there is the problem isn't it ;) Name 1 RPG in space, with space-ships, that is 3rd or first person, has companions, quests, storyline and isn't called Mass Effect.  :D Ps.: And do not, please, mention X Rebirth ;p Unless you want to see a page long rant by me ;P (joking ,p.. way too lazy for that)

Ps.: And no, x³ does not count imo ;) Though I played that excessively... certainly not for it's storyline ;P But it was pretty dang emergent at least. .. with mods.

Anyhow, I guess my point is. Nobody makes the game I (think I) want to play. Whether I actually want to play it when I had it in front of me.. oh well. ;p
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 10:44:41 pm by eRe4s3r »
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Offline Aklyon

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Re: Star Ruler 2
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2015, 08:05:06 pm »
Infinite Space, maybe?

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Star Ruler 2
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2015, 09:06:52 pm »
Eraser, you might get more mileage out of a space game with a storyline. Yeah, there's only one play through, but you would get more hours of enjoyment, and your money's worth out of it. You might like RPG's better.

Yeah, and that right there is the problem isn't it ;) Name 1 RPG in space, with space-ships, that is 3rd or first person, has companions, quests, storyline and isn't called Mass Effect.  :D Ps.: And do not, please, mention X Rebirth ;p Unless you want to see a page long rant by me ;P (joking ,p.. way too lazy for that)

Ps.: And no, x³ does not count imo ;) Though I played that excessively... certainly not for it's storyline ;P But it was pretty dang emergent at least. .. with mods.

Anyhow, I guess my point is. Nobody makes the game I (think I) want to play. Whether I actually want to play it when I had it in front of me.. oh well. ;p


There are tons of them out there. Here are two of them.



Freespace ( And it has mods)Nexus: The Jupiter Incident
Kahuna strategy guide:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13369.0.html

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Offline Aklyon

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Re: Star Ruler 2
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2015, 09:41:41 pm »
Is Freespace the one whose mods include an eniter dang open source project, or is that it's sequel?

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Star Ruler 2
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2015, 10:28:09 pm »
Is Freespace the one whose mods include an eniter dang open source project, or is that it's sequel?


I think it was the first one.
Kahuna strategy guide:
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