So League of Legends Season 3...

[Mánagarmr]

Well, there's 5 players on each team. Each player contributing 20% to the team is 100%. Makes perfect sense! (okay, I just had to do that )

Also, this discussion reminds me a lot about PvP in MMOs such as WoW.

[Mánagarmr]

Any player versus player game when you randomly pick your allys and enemies.

It's no different then fps games, except in those games since there is little to no chance of snowballing, since there are no levels nor item builds.

Some of the worst offenders do have killstreaks though, and those can cause hilarious snowballing. One of the worst examples I've seen are actually in the only FPS I play these days. Tribes:Ascend has a credits system where you get credits for kills, flag caps, flag returns, streaks, pretty much anything but dying. Credits can be used to call in inventory stations, air strikes and...Orbital Strikes.

The orbital strike costs 10 000 credits and kills literally everything that is not under roof in its target area. Place it well enough and you can get enough credits from the kills, multikill and streak bonuses to immediately fire off another one. >_>

[chemical_art]

Any player versus player game when you randomly pick your allys and enemies.

It's no different then fps games, except in those games since there is little to no chance of snowballing, since there are no levels nor item builds.

Some of the worst offenders do have killstreaks though, and those can cause hilarious snowballing. One of the worst examples I've seen are actually in the only FPS I play these days. Tribes:Ascend has a credits system where you get credits for kills, flag caps, flag returns, streaks, pretty much anything but dying. Credits can be used to call in inventory stations, air strikes and...Orbital Strikes.

The orbital strike costs 10 000 credits and kills literally everything that is not under roof in its target area. Place it well enough and you can get enough credits from the kills, multikill and streak bonuses to immediately fire off another one. >_>

Ah, my shooters don't use killstreaks, but killstreaks are true. I'm a fan of having them, but not allowing one kill streak to count in using another.

But even then those games still are often a matter of your overall team comp versus enemy somewhat. The effects are mitigated because personal skill is a much greater factor, but it is still very very key. I would guess that 20% of my games were a result of me alone, with the other 80% could have been decided without me.

In contrast with the nature of items, levels, and builds / counters LoL A(and almost all MOBA's on some level) is less about dexterity compared to a FPS, and more other skills (I'm lacking the word right now since I just woke up), and the result is that one superstar player can't single handedly lead a comeback but rather it is a team endeavor, and a side effect of this is that one player cannot turn the tide of a game as often whether it be offense or defense.

[Mánagarmr]

Ah, yes, I see your point and I do agree. It's quite possible for Tribes to be more or less "solo won" by a star player, I doubt that it possible in LoL.

[Wingflier]

I believe the fabled TreeEskimo once told us these words of wisdom: Not every game is going to be something you can control. 40% of the time, your team will win on their own. Another 40% of the time, your team will lose on their own, and nothing you do can stop that. Its that final 20% of the time that you actually matter - And that is what you focus on.

I am perfectly fine with losing a ranked game most of the time. I am usually sad that I lost it when it is not my fault, but its not that big of a deal to me. I can accept that their team was better than my team. Oftentimes in these situations I will have learned something about a particular laning situation, and I am ok with that. If my team wants to win on their own, and actually does it, I'm pretty happy. It is indeed 'free' elo.

The other 20% where I matter, those are the only times I can really look at games critically. Usually theres something I couldve done to help win, or something that I did that directly won us the game.

I think what I am saying is that its not going to be remotely possible to win games 100% of the time - its certainly going to be possible to win more games than you lose, on the assumption that you arent actually playing against people your skill level, but that overall some games will not be winnable.

Step back and think about this objectively. Is a game wherein the player only has a 20% chance of having a meaningful influence well designed (assuming its not supposed to be gambling)?

I agree with RCIX.  Solo queueing in LoL is one of its greatest flaws.

Yesterday I went on one of these horrible losing streaks.  I did nothing to deserve it.

Now granted, with 150 more wins than losses in normals, it's bound to happen now and then, but it's so damn frustrating when it does and there's nothing you can do.

I played well in 90% of my games.  I won my lanes, went positive, contributed to ganks, pushed towers, etc.  But every time, my team would just do something unbelievably stupid and lose the game.

Here are some examples:
-I'm Nunu and with Ashe, we crush bottom lane of Blitz, Vayne.  We've killed them both so many times they can't even enter lane.  After we kill their tower, Ashe goes full retard and just starts pushing WAY into enemy territory.  Even though I'm with her, there's nothing I can do to prevent Blitz and Vayne from just running up and killing her when she's way overextended.  I'm absolutely baffled at how dumb she is after our great laning phase.  Vayne goes from the most underfarmed hero in the game to 11-0 near the end of the game.  We find out later that Ashe had work in a few minutes, that's why she was playing so recklessly and pushing so hard...
-Brand goes mid and feeds Kass.  Engages when I'm (the jungler) way too far out and dies, then Kass just blinks away.  Kass gets superfed, gg.
-2 players want to play the AP Mid, but neither of them is willing to compromise and play the AD carry.  So we get an Ahri in the bot lane with Blitz, GG.
-One game the player just d/cs right at the beginning, so it's just 4v5, gg.
-One game we're winning the whole game, then in the end game the team engages in a 4v5, we lose, then they just push to win.  GG.

The problem with LoL is that personal skill isn't as important.  It really is that you only contribute about 20% of your team's total value.  If your team sucks, there isn't much you can do.

People say that DotA is unforgiving, but that's only true for new players.  LoL is much more unforgiving for experienced players.

-In DotA, if something happens in the pick screen where your team doesn't pick the "the perfect LoL comp", you don't automatically lose the game.  There is no "perfect DotA team comp", because lots of lineups work and can work.  Even with 5 carries or no carries, you can still win the game.

-In DotA you can win 4v5s.  Even better, you can pause the game and wait for the guy to reconnect.  Even better, if someone leaves the game permanently (there's only a 5 min disconnect timer in DotA), everybody is free to leave, so you don't have to waste your time.  If somebody disconnects in LoL, even just for a few minutes, it puts your team at a huge disadvantage, even though these things happen.

-In LoL items scale up, where in DotA, items scale down.  This means that the more farmed you get in LoL, the more powerful, exponentially you become.  In DotA, the more farmed you get, your power increases inversely proportionate to LoL.  The best item in DotA costs 57 gold.  It is the most cost effective item in the game.  So even if you aren't rich in DotA, your items can still be decent in comparison to someone who is.

-Voice chat.  Obvious.  Increases the communication of your team, rewards people who can communicate well much more than LoL.  People respond much more effectively to a human voice than to anonymous text on the screen.

-Losing gold on death is actually much more valuable for the losing team.  If you're dying and underleveled, you probably have no gold anyway.  So even if you die, you haven't lost anything.  However, killing the enemy carry a few times cripples whatever gold they've accrued.  This is doubly true because of the fact that they're probably a few levels higher than you are.  The higher level you are, the more gold you lose.  This seems to make comebacks more likely.  If you're behind in DotA, you can win a couple key engagements, and get back in the game.  If you're behind in LoL, you're just behind.  Even if you kill the enemy carry a few times, you have only stopped his farm temporarily, you haven't set him back.

-Finally, and most importantly:  Buybacks.

Teams in DotA and LoL make stupid mistakes.  It happens.  But if your team in LoL makes a stupid mistake in the end game:  That's it - it's over.  If your team in DotA makes a stupid mistake, they can still buy back.  It's not just over because of 1 misclick or 1 miscommunication.  The Tower Fortification mechanic also contributes into holding on just long enough to get your team back into the game.

All of these LoL mechanics contribute to a game where, if your team sucks, there is precious little you can do about it. 

That isn't to say that in DotA you'll never run into a team that is too bad to help, it just means that you're less likely to lose even though you played really well.

[RCIX]

I believe the fabled TreeEskimo once told us these words of wisdom: Not every game is going to be something you can control. 40% of the time, your team will win on their own. Another 40% of the time, your team will lose on their own, and nothing you do can stop that. Its that final 20% of the time that you actually matter - And that is what you focus on.

I am perfectly fine with losing a ranked game most of the time. I am usually sad that I lost it when it is not my fault, but its not that big of a deal to me. I can accept that their team was better than my team. Oftentimes in these situations I will have learned something about a particular laning situation, and I am ok with that. If my team wants to win on their own, and actually does it, I'm pretty happy. It is indeed 'free' elo.

The other 20% where I matter, those are the only times I can really look at games critically. Usually theres something I couldve done to help win, or something that I did that directly won us the game.

I think what I am saying is that its not going to be remotely possible to win games 100% of the time - its certainly going to be possible to win more games than you lose, on the assumption that you arent actually playing against people your skill level, but that overall some games will not be winnable.

Step back and think about this objectively. Is a game wherein the player only has a 20% chance of having a meaningful influence well designed (assuming its not supposed to be gambling)?

Any player versus player game when you randomly pick your allys and enemies.

It's no different then fps games, except in those games since there is little to no chance of snowballing, since there are no levels nor item builds.

That has little relevance to whether it's a good or bad design. It's just a statement of how things are.

Also, what Wingflier said.

[Lancefighter]

Branches are worth 53 gold atm, and the best item in the game are drums :p
 
But really, I dont understand what the problem is. As was mentioned, it is a team game - are you really expecting that every game you can be a greater influence on your team than the 5 people on the other team combined are to theirs?

[Wingflier]

53, 57, whatever.

And I meant in terms of cost effectiveness, branches are the best.  What they give you, per point of gold, is worth more than any other item.  In other words, if your inventory limitation wasn't 6 slots, it would be silly to build anything other than mass branches and boots, because they would give you the best cost:benefit ratio by far.

All the DotA items work like this.  The more expensive they get, the less effective they are comparably.

But really, I dont understand what the problem is. As was mentioned, it is a team game - are you really expecting that every game you can be a greater influence on your team than the 5 people on the other team combined are to theirs?

This is a bit of a hyperbole.  You're ignoring your own entire team, and making your argument look better by putting the emphasis on their 5, as if the game is 5v1 or something.

All we're saying is that if you are playing better than everyone else in the game (on your team OR theirs), you should have a much bigger impact on the game.  Personal skill should factor in.  In League, you may play significantly better than everybody else, but in my experience, you'll still only contributing that 20%.  In DotA, you can contribute a lot more than that.

[Lancefighter]

Sorry, would you rather I restate it as such: Do you believe you as a single player can make more difference than the sum of the enemy team subtracted by the sum of your team's contributions?

Its more that in the cases where the other team beats your team in the laning phase, they are INCREDIBLY far ahead. League snowballs incredibly quickly, such that a player who has been beat in lane will almost always end up fairly useless. This is the comparison I am trying to make more than anything else.

[Wingflier]

Sorry, would you rather I restate it as such: Do you believe you as a single player can make more difference than the sum of the enemy team subtracted by the sum of your team's contributions?

Its more that in the cases where the other team beats your team in the laning phase, they are INCREDIBLY far ahead. League snowballs incredibly quickly, such that a player who has been beat in lane will almost always end up fairly useless. This is the comparison I am trying to make more than anything else.

I don't know how to respond to this directly, since I'm still having a bit of a hard time understanding what you're saying.

I will say this though, DotA 2 doesn't end in the laning phase.  If you lose the laning phase there are ways to make that gold back such as ancient creep stacking, smoke ganks, tower denies, and coordinated tower pushing.  There are ways of getting back into the game in DotA that don't involve directly facing the enemy team in a five on five, that don't really exist in League.

The problem I've seen in League is that it's really tough to gank a lane, even as a jungler.  If the enemy team has wards either in the river or the bush, they can just back long before you get into range.  So of course this means that the people who win the laning phase are much more likely to win the game, as assassination attempts are much harder to pull off.  DotA makes it easier to kill people with a lot of gold by limiting the number of wards your team can have, by increasing the number of ways you can enter the lane, and with smoke, which bypasses wards altogether.

However, I don't think this makes League a bad game at all.  I think League is still in its infancy in terms of growing and evolving as a competitive game.  Hopefully they will deal with this problem a little more before Season 3 starts.  Then more in Season 4, etc.  I'm sure there are solutions to these problems without making the game as complicated as DotA is.

[Lancefighter]

Ok, so heres whats happening - I am a top laner. I lane top. We are basically stalemating, neither team's jungle ganks top. I am playing.. Lets go with your average melee semicarry, like irelia. I have a fairly good cs, lets say 200. Its 25 minutes into the game.

My team's mid lane is doing terribly. I have a 0-5 caster, lets say.. Kat. The other team's malz is 5-0.
My team's bottom lane is collectively 0-6. We have a cait who has basically no items, and a taric without items either. The other team's carry is sitting at 5 kills.
My jungler hasnt had any jungle creeps all game due to getting counterjungled. He is five levels below the other team's jungler, but lucky hasnt actually died yet.
This is what I am talking about. Sure, I am a farmed irelia. But I am also the only person on my team that has any presence in teamfights.

Can I really somehow out-carry the entire other team? No, not really. What I am saying is that me as the absolute best case hero (irelia) cannot be greater than the difference in strength of the other 4 heros on my team.

[chemical_art]

Laming phase isn't the end of.the world however to come.from behind requires.great.teamwork both in map positioning and in fights. Given the bonus gold from kills for.the behind team two teamfight victories can result in turning the game around, unless you are speaking and coordinating with  your teammates it is very difficult

[Wingflier]

Ok, so heres whats happening - I am a top laner. I lane top. We are basically stalemating, neither team's jungle ganks top. I am playing.. Lets go with your average melee semicarry, like irelia. I have a fairly good cs, lets say 200. Its 25 minutes into the game.

My team's mid lane is doing terribly. I have a 0-5 caster, lets say.. Kat. The other team's malz is 5-0.
My team's bottom lane is collectively 0-6. We have a cait who has basically no items, and a taric without items either. The other team's carry is sitting at 5 kills.
My jungler hasnt had any jungle creeps all game due to getting counterjungled. He is five levels below the other team's jungler, but lucky hasnt actually died yet.
This is what I am talking about. Sure, I am a farmed irelia. But I am also the only person on my team that has any presence in teamfights.

Can I really somehow out-carry the entire other team? No, not really. What I am saying is that me as the absolute best case hero (irelia) cannot be greater than the difference in strength of the other 4 heros on my team.

Well in League there really isn't much you could do.

But say in DotA, if you're farming really well top, you could teleport bottom or mid for a quick gank.  If successful, you've helped out your team's lane, and set your enemy back a bit.

Chances are, someone will have to teleport back top to defend the tower until you have a chance to go back up there.

Sure, Teleport is a Summoner Ability in LoL, but it's not often taken.  And even for people who do take it (such as myself), the 240 second cooldown is a big disincentive to use it in order to help other lanes stabilize.  If the Teleport ability had a 60 second cooldown, LoL would be a completely different game.  You (as a good player) would be able to assist your lanes much more, and would be less vulnerable to ward vision since you're coming from behind the tower.  Even if the gank fails, if you've done enough damage to send the enemy team back, you can at least get the tower, which will allow them to transfer to different lanes, maybe push some more towers as a team to get things back on an even keel, or do some smoke ganks.

I agree with you though, it's difficult to alter the game in a meaningful way when your team fails in the laning phase.  I would blame this on the lack of mobility that exists without scrolls of teleport.

[Lancefighter]

Yeah - Which is exactly my point. Mostly ignoring the dota comparisons, because the underlying issue is soloq in league, not discussions of which game is better, there isnt anything I can do if my bot lane is feeding. Absolutely nothing.

And sure chemart, its not exactly the end of the game, but because of league's snowballing, it often ends up being a challenge many people would rather not do, instead surrendering and going to the next game. If thats a issue with the surrender function itself, I am not sure, but often I do not feel it is possible to come back from a game as described, particularly when at least two of the players are starting to have negative feelings about that game.

[RCIX]

Ok, so heres whats happening - I am a top laner. I lane top. We are basically stalemating, neither team's jungle ganks top. I am playing.. Lets go with your average melee semicarry, like irelia. I have a fairly good cs, lets say 200. Its 25 minutes into the game.

My team's mid lane is doing terribly. I have a 0-5 caster, lets say.. Kat. The other team's malz is 5-0.
My team's bottom lane is collectively 0-6. We have a cait who has basically no items, and a taric without items either. The other team's carry is sitting at 5 kills.
My jungler hasnt had any jungle creeps all game due to getting counterjungled. He is five levels below the other team's jungler, but lucky hasnt actually died yet.
This is what I am talking about. Sure, I am a farmed irelia. But I am also the only person on my team that has any presence in teamfights.

Can I really somehow out-carry the entire other team? No, not really. What I am saying is that me as the absolute best case hero (irelia) cannot be greater than the difference in strength of the other 4 heros on my team.

This is the problem. As a solo player, I don't feel like I should be penalized for what is essentially a random for my purposes matchmaker. Yes, it's a team game, but that's the point. I'm not a team, and I picked solo queue because it was a way for me to play by myself. I don't care how it's fixed, just that it is.