Author Topic: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)  (Read 19859 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #75 on: March 13, 2013, 11:32:06 am »
Maxis already said that EA had minimal influence on the development..
Given the apparent widespread-deception on how much the game ties into the servers (a very key point of the controversy), why do you believe the statement that EA wasn't more involved?  Publishers have forced developers to say that sort of thing before.

In any event, why believe a promise from either party?
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #76 on: March 13, 2013, 12:05:46 pm »
If I didn't believe any promise of a developer I would pirate all games to see them for myself before even considering paying money... only very very brittle barriers in my mind stop me. And since I would have either bought Sim City or another game at that point in time I figured Sim City had more merit (obviously a wrong decision, but I don't pander to the past ;p)

That, and I am a huge economic sim fan.

I am fairly certain that developers personal twitter accounts are not "owned" by EA PR speak ;) But to put this into perspective, I bought the game last year, so that was before Brandy Pitchfork lied to us openly with the trainwreck that is Aliens Colonial Marines (a game back then, I would have nearly bought instead of Sim City..) maybe I should have canceled my pre-order but I would have lost my credit, and only got back what I paid. So whatever, at least you can hear from someone who bought it what the actual problems of this game are, Online Only is a minor annoyance. Even offline the game would be a disaster.

And I don't consider EA the big evil. EA makes the games I play (and played) more than all other games. BC2 and BF3 ;) (360hrs and 333hrs *ongoing* ) that's more worth for my money than any other game by any developer (Dice) and publisher (EA) ever.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #77 on: March 13, 2013, 12:24:26 pm »
And I don't consider EA the big evil.
Yea, they're just people, for better or worse.  It's not some nefarious organization for the extermination of kittens or whatever.

But offhand I can't think of any publisher with a worse track record on integrity and customer-service at this point.  Activision and Ubisoft are up there, so I guess it's probably a matter of perception and whether one has personally caught it from any of the above.
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Offline Mick

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #78 on: March 13, 2013, 12:37:50 pm »
EA doesn't kill kittens, just your childhood.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #79 on: March 13, 2013, 12:58:31 pm »
EA doesn't kill kittens, just your childhood.
Your childhood's still there; SimCity 2000 is on GOG (not that you'd need GOG to get it).
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Offline Echo35

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #80 on: March 13, 2013, 01:50:36 pm »
EA doesn't kill kittens, just your childhood.
Your childhood's still there; SimCity 2000 is on GOG (not that you'd need GOG to get it).

SC4 actually runs perfectly fine on modern hardware. Also RPS ran an article about what eRe4s3r is talking about with the pathfinding being awful. Evidently the sims themselves use the same simulations as utilities do, and operate as a mass rather than individual agents like they claimed.

Offline orzelek

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #81 on: March 13, 2013, 01:58:23 pm »
I also have the game... and I played one city.
Had only one day of problems with the servers and was blissfully unaware of certain lacks.. until I started to try and figure out why 200k+ city has mood swings ;)
Always online DRM doesn't bother me that much since I'm usually online. But all the rest they botched.... I wasn't expecting that from Maxis. And I really wanted new sim city game to actually build some cities not run transport in them.
Sadly they are faaar behind Cities in Motion which have a bit abstracted but properly working sim that counts who lives where and where does his shopping, school or work.

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #82 on: March 13, 2013, 02:54:48 pm »

SC4 actually runs perfectly fine on modern hardware. Also RPS ran an article about what eRe4s3r is talking about with the pathfinding being awful. Evidently the sims themselves use the same simulations as utilities do, and operate as a mass rather than individual agents like they claimed.

It's pretty insane to simulate water and energy with RANDOM agents anyway.... seems to me they had a hammer (Glassbox Agent system) and saw nails everywhere where there were screws. Sim City 4 had a far more superior simulation of power and water, it was actually the one thing about the game that was pretty realistic and is unmatched by any city builder so far.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #83 on: March 13, 2013, 07:40:06 pm »
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #84 on: March 13, 2013, 08:07:12 pm »
Wait, wait, what?
They are using agent based simulation for water and power!?

(Warning: long, somewhat heady, most certainly rambling post ahead)

From what I understand, agent based simulation works best when three conditions hold:
1. The "thing" to be models can be separated into more or less distinct entities or agents that can more or less act independently (loosely speaking, is what is being modeled a countable noun?)
2. The "transmission time" (loosely speaking, is the state of the thing being modeled directly correlated to time in a periodic fashion, and if so, is the period over several cycles? If it is not periodic, do changes in relevant state disrupt nearby local equilibrium before affecting parts further away?)
3.  The time to reach equilibrium is high (loosely speaking, given no action from the player after a relevant state change, would it take many cycles to reach the new equilibrium?)

This means for things like sims, transportation, crime, plants that grow and reproduce, certain types of disasters like fire (the "unit" is "tile on fire" in this case), stuff like that is a great fit for agent based simulation, and I am glad to see them pursue it. I'm even fine with the shortcut of them only simulating a fraction of the agents each simulation cycle and probabilistically and/or approximately extrapolating the rest, as long as they rotate (or better yet, randomize favoring agents that have been waiting for a full sim for longer more strongly) which ones get chosen. So long as the fraction is judiciously chosen, it leads to a reasonable approximation for a fraction of the CPU cost.
Though I do have to shake my head about each sim not having a designated home and work place (though either or both could change over time, but that would be the exception, not the rule), but instead on each "state transition" just choosing the "closest" slot. That is a shortcut, that unlike the cycling one, does quite detrimentally reduce simulation accuracy.

However, for water...um what?
Yea, the "transmission time" and time to reach equilibrium is rather high, but you can't really seperate it into independent agents. To model true fluid behavior, you would need an absurd number of agents. This is why the fields of fluid dynamics and mechanics exist, to model the complexities the travel time and time to reach equilibrium causes without having to consider each individual molecule and still get a very accurate description of what is happening. That seems like a better way to model a water system, and much less likely to cause strange behavior. Heck, you could even do an iterative approximation each cycle, which would be no more expensive than an agent based simulation, but because of the nature of what is being modeled, would converge on a good approximation of real life behavior much faster.

For power...no, just no.
Power not only can't be modeled effectively using agents (it's even worse than water really, as you would have to track electrons or some approximation thereof, which would have to be even more numerous to get a decent), but it even has a very short transmission time and hits equilibrium much faster. This makes it even easier to compute how much "power" would be at each "edge" and "vertex", as you can assume rather reasonably that equilibrium can be reached over a single simulation cycle, rather than multiple as you may have to do with water (depending on long in in-game time each cycle covers). Again, you can use an iterative approximation if needed (as for highly complicated, branching circuits, the equations to find exact answers can become quite ornery), but as you can assume equilibrium that cycle, you don't even need to consider the previous cycle's state, letting you converge to a decent approximation that cycle even faster; far, far faster and more reliably than you can get with agent simulation.

(end rambling)

Seriously, if Maxis using agent simulation for non-countable entities is true, then I am going to have to face palm.
*readies the Picard pic, just in case*
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 10:39:34 pm by TechSY730 »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #85 on: March 13, 2013, 08:22:07 pm »
http://i.imgur.com/K3KFAI3.jpg
This just makes less and less sense.  I don't mean "this is stupid", but "this is incoherent".  It's very common in launch debacles like this for companies to be pretty open about just giving refunds to people who want out.  It's often a very effective PR "relief valve".  How much would it really hurt EA's bottom line to do this, instead of the free-origin-game thing they did?

I'm really starting to suspect someone making the high-level decisions at EA and/or Maxis wants this to blow up horribly.  I'm serious.  It would be hard for them to play their cards any more strongly in that direction than they have.  They've made multiple public statements (some repeatedly) that are easily falsifiable, for no reason that I can easily discern.  If they were actually things that could have been kept concealed, well, fine, but none of these (server needed for singleplayer calculations, meaningful individual sim lives, willingness to give refunds) could reasonably stay that way for long.

My longshot guess is that the people making these calls are intentionally helping to fabricate a pretext for legislation targeted at the video-game-industry... but this whole thing doesn't seem quite strange enough for that to make sense... yet.
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Offline Echo35

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #86 on: March 13, 2013, 09:33:58 pm »
http://i.imgur.com/K3KFAI3.jpg
This just makes less and less sense.  I don't mean "this is stupid", but "this is incoherent".  It's very common in launch debacles like this for companies to be pretty open about just giving refunds to people who want out.  It's often a very effective PR "relief valve".  How much would it really hurt EA's bottom line to do this, instead of the free-origin-game thing they did?

I'm really starting to suspect someone making the high-level decisions at EA and/or Maxis wants this to blow up horribly.  I'm serious.  It would be hard for them to play their cards any more strongly in that direction than they have.  They've made multiple public statements (some repeatedly) that are easily falsifiable, for no reason that I can easily discern.  If they were actually things that could have been kept concealed, well, fine, but none of these (server needed for singleplayer calculations, meaningful individual sim lives, willingness to give refunds) could reasonably stay that way for long.

My longshot guess is that the people making these calls are intentionally helping to fabricate a pretext for legislation targeted at the video-game-industry... but this whole thing doesn't seem quite strange enough for that to make sense... yet.

In EA's defense, that guy is threatening a charge back, which in almost all cases everywhere are disallowed by the ToS, for various reasons (It costs the company a lot of money, makes them look less reputable to a bank, etc). You can't charge back on Steam and pretty much most online retailers, digital distribution or not. Though I agree with you that this whole thing is so spectacularly bad that it almost seems like they tried.

Wait, wait, what?
They are using agent based simulation for water and power!?

I don't own the game (Avoided it like a plague infested dead animal) but from my understanding, power and water are essentially "packets" that move along the water/power lines (ie roads, since you don't lay down individual pipes and lines anymore). I've seen videos of people gaming it with hilarious results, like cascading waves of energy, and houses not getting powered for a while because the energy had to go around in loops, and the like.

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #87 on: March 13, 2013, 10:17:15 pm »
I've said some absurd ridiculous things in this very thread and I've just been staying out of discussion lest I go and do that again. This really is the kind of situation where I don't think you can make good comments or well informed guesses as to what's going to happen. It's like an actual train wreck. You can't say anything; You just watch it happen. I was given the impression that the game was really good, but the business model was bad. Now if I'm seeing all of this right, the game is provably bad and/or amateurish and has lied on numerous fronts on what levels of simulation that it provides.

I just... I still don't even have a comment. I was actually hoping the game would completely fall flat despite looking really good, because maybe that would discourage this business model. I couldn't have seen it going quite this badly. I can't comprehend what's going on or why it's going so badly. Like watching a train with no people on it wrecking, there's only one thing to do.
*sits back with a bag of popcorn and awaits more ridiculous news*

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #88 on: March 14, 2013, 12:40:52 am »
Wait, wait, what?
They are using agent based simulation for water and power!?

...*massive snip*...

Yes, they use a (very low count) agent based simulation for literally everything. Including traffic (the same way it's used for power and water). So buildings at the end of the road get water last, and sometimes even never. You can also have random power and water outages because a packet gets confused and ends up doing 6 loops while the block next is offline ;p You also can have sewage blockage if you put (say) an outpipe next to a sewage treatment facility. Since it will want to go to the outpipe and when it's full the sewage stops even though the open treatment facility could "use" it.

Needless to say that the Picard facepalm is appropriate. And just think how much performance is wasted on this. Water, Sewage and Power are not something you ever need to simulate with agents. But nobody told the Interns at Maxis ;p
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #89 on: March 14, 2013, 01:05:58 am »
In EA's defense, that guy is threatening a charge back, which in almost all cases everywhere are disallowed by the ToS, for various reasons
Right, I'm not commenting on the "if you dispute, we ban you" thing, but rather that (apparently) there was some publicized offer of refunds in case of dissatisfaction and this particular customer was refused such a refund.  Only at that point did he mention disputing the charge.

Anyway, refund stuff aside, the lies about the single-player-sim needing the servers and the depth of the individual sims' sim... I can understand why they might have liked to reap the benefits of those being seen as true, but I cannot understand how they would have thought they would actually get that outcome for very long.  The claims are just too easily falsifiable.  Something's fishy.

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