Author Topic: Paid mods for skyrim  (Read 24409 times)

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Paid mods for skyrim
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2015, 05:35:12 pm »
If AAA publishers want to keep shooting themselves in the foot with more laziness, that's their decision. And they will pay for it. Many already have. Again, not buying their games that do this (and buying the games that do right by the consumer) is the easiest way of punishing them.

They will.  The triple-A industry is very content to burn the long-term viability of their industry over short term gains.  Why?  Because when it inevitably collapses, they (the publisher) won't feel it.  They'll just take all those profits and go start some other venture.

The people that will suffer will be us, the consumer, and the developer (who had no control anyway).

Yeah, I'm not going to agree with this. Consumers only suffer if they continue to buy games blind. Otherwise, they can choose to not buy games with dodgy practices and instead shift their focus to games that actually treat them right.
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Paid mods for skyrim
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2015, 05:37:11 pm »
The days where a single dev or even a group of 5-10 people can develop a full game are going to end.

Based on what? Indie game development seems to only be growing more and more each day because platforms like Steam have made publishing and distribution easier than it's ever been.

The biggest threat to the indie developer is market saturation, not the big bad AAA teams controlling all the tools.

Pretty much what Mick said. With the recent announcement of Source, Unity and another engine going "free" up to a certain revenue point, Indie development is easier, cheaper and more accessible than it ever has been.
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Offline kasnavada

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Re: Paid mods for skyrim
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2015, 06:16:16 pm »
Based on what? Indie game development seems to only be growing more and more each day because platforms like Steam have made publishing and distribution easier than it's ever been.

The biggest threat to the indie developer is market saturation, not the big bad AAA teams controlling all the tools.

First of all, never said anything about "big bad" controlling whatever. I don't think that AAA or large companies are enemies of whatever but each other actually.

Anyway, Steam is only a part of what made the indy game scene somewhat bigger. A large part which you seem to forget is done by the tools that dev now have at their disposal to code. Based on inside experience, and Arcen's, and others around. Sorry, but... coding changed in the last 30 years, and also because of (way larger) computing capability.

30 years ago, you had to code everything and could only make limited stuff, due to hardware limitations, true, but also due to coding techniques and limited langages. By limited I mean what 30 minutes of coding did in those day, you can now do way faster, depending on the tools you're using. It will, of course, take a toll on performance, but most games don't need to use more than 5% of a computer's ressources (if efficiently used). Typically using a tool like Unity to code WILL take a large amount of coding out of your hands, enabling a rather small team to make a complete game with rather high graphic quality, rather good sound, controls, portability, and rather good stability at the cost of some (significant) loss of performance compared to an home-grown engine. Do you understand how much work getting all those to work represent ? It's not perfect though, but it's getting "better", or rather easier and easier, as time go by, to get a decent game made. Ultimately you'll be able to create a game with next to no coding done, only graphics and a few rules, and a good story. It's already doable, actually, for "simpler" game concepts.

And, yeah, since you don't seem to know, only AAA game dev or companies dedicated for this have the manpower to build up an engine from the ground, and they often do this for performance issues. So since creating an engine costs (very much a lot of) money, they're selling it. Yes, it means that larger game studios and some other dedicated tool makers are already controlling most tools. Unreal engine & Unity would be some of the better known currently. Most of the indy dev go for concept and not performance and use the tools sold on the market to get the game on live.

Want some proof about how many games are based on technology by others ?

http://unity3d.com/showcase/gallery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games
https://www.unrealengine.com/showcase

Hell, even CCP, which has even online, uses those. They certainly have the money to make an engine from the ground up.
https://www.unrealengine.com/showcase/eve-valkyrie-made-for-virtual-reality

Do you know what Bethesda uses ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havok_%28software%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_using_Havok

The whole market is getting saturated with these kind of tools, which most dev (from indy to large studio) use, and which made the current "explosion" of gaming possible.

And, another thing, market saturation... as long as there are tools powerful enough to enable people to create games with moderate to low workload (even at the cost of performance, since computers are getting even more efficient still), cheap distribution (like steam and the like), it will attract an endless stream of "artists" to create games. Much like the art, music and video (youtube to cinema) currently is saturated. A large amount of those people work for low wages because there is so much competition... and some of the competition actually crosses the line to work for free. Video gaming and app dev currently moves closer and closer to this model.

So, no, contrary to what seems to be the dominant opinion on this and other forums around, Bethesda people are very far from being dumb. Being the first to have paid mods, and getting the first abuses linked to getting this system to work is kind of dangerous, but the current state of AAA gaming development teams is grow bigger or become indy. By selling mods, they create a market which depends on them, and whose quality, publicity and so on does not depend on them. From Bethesda's point of view, paid modders will generate free publicity, free work to make their "base" game more successful. Some people will buy their game because they want the mods. Some may be even large enough to be sold as standalone "expansions" of the base game.

And, last point... It already happened. Where do you think that Valve comes from ? Ever heard of CS & DoTA ?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 06:20:15 pm by kasnavada »

Offline kasnavada

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Re: Paid mods for skyrim
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2015, 06:19:05 pm »
The days where a single dev or even a group of 5-10 people can develop a full game are going to end.
Based on what? Indie game development seems to only be growing more and more each day because platforms like Steam have made publishing and distribution easier than it's ever been.
The biggest threat to the indie developer is market saturation, not the big bad AAA teams controlling all the tools.
Pretty much what Mick said. With the recent announcement of Source, Unity and another engine going "free" up to a certain revenue point, Indie development is easier, cheaper and more accessible than it ever has been.

That's actually the opposite of what he says. He's stating that publishing and distribution are the only impact, and that new tools developped by AAA studios have none.


Offline Captain Jack

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Re: Paid mods for skyrim
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2015, 06:19:46 pm »
I think the problem is going to solve it itself. Why? Because it only takes a few high profile detonations to poison the well for this sort of thing, and unless there's a massive success that erases the negative press it's caused then what will remain in the public perception will be the negative.

At best I think this will follow the same path Amazon did when Amazon started selling fanfiction: nowhere. Because the number of people who'll pay for that content is insignificant compared to the number of people who will continue producing it for free.

Oh, and kasnavada, Bethesda isn't the first company to do paid mods. Ever play Neverwinter Nights? Bioware tried selling premium modules for a few years but the program went bust. Only a handful of the premium modules are still purchaseable today (Kingmaker, Witch's Wake and Shadowguard), while the much more interesting Pirates of the Sword Coast and Wyvern Crown of Cormyr cannot be acquired legally, and once you do acquire it you need a CD key from someone who bought the mods in order to get past the authentication. Which may be dead now.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 06:26:26 pm by Watashiwa »

Offline kasnavada

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Re: Paid mods for skyrim
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2015, 06:26:44 pm »
Quote
Oh, and kasnavada, Bethesda isn't the first company to do paid mods. Ever play Neverwinter Nights? Bioware tried selling premium modules for a few years but the program went bust.

Didn't know but that does not mean anything. The market changed in 10 years. I'm not assuming they'll succeed, just that they know what they're doing and taking a calculated risk.

Also, surviving jumping from a cliff couldn't work back 30000 years ago, now we have parachutes =). It's not because something failed back then than it'll always will.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 06:28:50 pm by kasnavada »

Offline Captain Jack

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Re: Paid mods for skyrim
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2015, 06:38:33 pm »
I'm sure they think so. And I'm sure the day will come when some mods are more equal than others.

But I absolutely don't want Bethesda's version of it to work.

(Also your jumping off a cliff metaphor isn't very good, you'd probably die because the parachute won't have time to fully deploy and slow you. The more you know!)

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Paid mods for skyrim
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2015, 07:15:59 pm »
Words and lots of them

I have no idea what the point of this was. Can you make a tl;dr because you lost me. And I re-read that three times over.

And, last point... It already happened. Where do you think that Valve comes from ? Ever heard of CS & DoTA ?

Valve got their start and big public success from Half Life and Half Life 2 respectively. Counterstrike started as a mod (I'm 99% certain) and so did DOTA 2. Again, not seeing the point here that you're trying to make.

Unless you're saying that all games devs will quit making games and make mods which will then become controlled by AAA devs in which case that's not happening. Regardless of what happens with Steam Workshop.
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: Paid mods for skyrim
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2015, 10:43:09 pm »
Yeah, I'm not going to agree with this. Consumers only suffer if they continue to buy games blind. Otherwise, they can choose to not buy games with dodgy practices and instead shift their focus to games that actually treat them right.

Yes, but this will turn a large population away from games entirely.  They won't trust the entire industry any more and will seek their entertainment elsewhere.

We, as consumers, have been talking about "voting with our wallets" for a freaking decade and we still fall for the same old shite.
I refused, a long time ago, to buy any game "pre-release" or "early access" (with minor exceptions, like when an EA title goes on sale for like $2) because they are buggy as all getout, incomplete, packed with day-1 DLC, etc. etc. etc.

How many people pre-ordered GTA5? Only to have this happen.  And this isn't the first time this has happened, nor the first time with a big title.  Remember From Dust?  How about SporeThe 89 features missing from Sims 4?

That's four titles in the last 8 years and I was able to pull those off the top of my head.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 10:47:30 pm by Draco18s »

Offline Misery

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Re: Paid mods for skyrim
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2015, 11:08:13 pm »


And, yeah, since you don't seem to know, only AAA game dev or companies dedicated for this have the manpower to build up an engine from the ground

Wrong.

Go look up the team behind the incredibly popular Space Engineers, and Miner Wars 2081 before that.  They use their own engine, developed entirely in-house, called "VRAGE".  And note:  They're a SMALL team.  Like, what, 10 people?  And what they've made is more impressive than what alot of bigger companies ever produce.  WAY more impressive.

And there's actually lots of examples like this; that one is just the most obvious (No, I'm not going to list more.  And no, that doesnt instantly mean there ARENT more.  It means I'm lazy.  Just go research it yourself).  Hell, I've seen games like that with an engine made by one (extremely obsessive) guy!  You dont HEAR all that much about those, but they're becoming more and more common lately.  And the usual suspects are mostly heard about hyper often because they constantly brag about this fact.  You know, so many games start with "HOLY BALLS!!!!11!! THIS WAS MADE WITH UNREAL THING!!!! *explosions*"

And one simple fact comes out of this:  If the big guys that make things like the Unreal Engine start dumping restrictions on those that want to use it, well.... groups will form among those that want to use it, and they'll simply create their own, and hand THAT out instead partly out of sheer spite.



Frankly, issues like this sort of crap are what I think of as one of the reasons why indie games are getting more and more popular as time goes on:  Because people are getting more and more tired of putting up with the same nasty crap from the big guys.   Hell, I've already heard a few "OKAY, THATS IT, I'm JUST DONE HERE" reactions from people in relation to JUST the Skyrim mods alone!  Consumers in the industry are already frustrated.  Have been for awhile.  So it's taking less and less to shove them away.... and some will just head towards the smaller guys, who dont shove that kind of stupidity in their faces.

That's what *I* did.  That's why I'm here at all.  I got tired of the usual idiocy from the usual idiots, and the replication of the SAME DAMN TRENDS over and over, yet lazier and lazier each and every time it was replicated.  Eventually, I"d had enough. 

And really?  Best freaking gaming-related decision I've made in..... uhhh..... some undefined amount of time.  A LONG amount of time, one way or another.  I'm always hearing from friends how "Oh there's been no good releases in like MONTHS", while I'll have just bought like, 7 awesome things that just came out over the course of like, 2 weeks, maybe.  I'm glad not to be in THEIR things on your feet anymore like I once was.

I really doubt I'm the only one that sees it that way.

Of course, all of this speculation is just that:  Speculation.  It remains to be seen as to what will REALLY happen.


Me though?  If the big guys in the industry start to crumble... well, I'll enjoy it, frankly.  Because I'm unpleasant that way. 


I've forgotten where I was going with any of this.  Does it even make sense?  THE WORLD SHALL NEVER KNOW. 

I need my damn caffiene already.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 11:20:53 pm by Misery »

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Paid mods for skyrim
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2015, 11:11:48 pm »
Yeah, I'm not going to agree with this. Consumers only suffer if they continue to buy games blind. Otherwise, they can choose to not buy games with dodgy practices and instead shift their focus to games that actually treat them right.

Yes, but this will turn a large population away from games entirely.  They won't trust the entire industry any more and will seek their entertainment elsewhere.

If consumers getting information about games before they're released causes them to seek their entertainment elsewhere, then this industry was doomed from the start. Give me a reason for this statement and why you make it. But I can definitely say that is not the case. Not if Let's Players and YouTube reviewers are ANY indication of how far from the truth that statement is.

We, as consumers, have been talking about "voting with our wallets" for a freaking decade and we still fall for the same old shite.
I refused, a long time ago, to buy any game "pre-release" or "early access" (with minor exceptions, like when an EA title goes on sale for like $2) because they are buggy as all getout, incomplete, packed with day-1 DLC, etc. etc. etc.

It's not the same people that fall for the same thing. But yes, marketing campaigns by AAA companies are really good. Too good in fact, as people are becoming more and more wary of the hype. I expect that to start backfiring in the next several years.

How many people pre-ordered GTA5? Only to have this happen.  And this isn't the first time this has happened, nor the first time with a big title.  Remember From Dust?  How about SporeThe 89 features missing from Sims 4?

That's four titles in the last 8 years and I was able to pull those off the top of my head.

That GTAV bug is hilarious, I've never heard of that happening before and I'm sure even Rockstar was surprised to have it happen. Considering the game was in an otherwise great condition, (well optimized, well done PC options menu, no ridiculously bad problems unlike other open world releases, etc) I'd say that Rockstar did ok with that release. Better than ok really, considering their past with prior PC releases. So, I'd say that even Rockstar has realized that it's better to do right than wrong on the platform. Cmon, GTAV is not a good example of a bad AAA title. I can think of 20 that were much, much, MUCH worse.

Yes, there are plenty of case examples of bad AAA titles. I didn't mean to indicate that it'll all just go away. But I think that games releases now have been better than ever as a whole. Really, the only major companies that continue to release questionable games on a CONSISTENT basis are: EA and Ubisoft. Even Ubisoft isn't always that consistent of being bad. Heck, remember when Activision used to be the worst? Yeah, they finally started listening and improved their games.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 11:13:30 pm by KingIsaacLinksr »
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Paid mods for skyrim
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2015, 11:32:52 pm »
To bring us back to the topic that this was originally created for, a perspective from the Garry's Mod guy. I think he makes a lot of good points:

http://garry.tv/2015/04/24/paying-for-mods/

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Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Paid mods for skyrim
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2015, 11:44:06 pm »
I actually like Spore. I can see why people have problems with it but I like it still.
Besides that, i buy a lot of games in early stages (EA or fund them on their site). I've fallen over my own feet more than once because the purchased product does not deliver what it promised. For examples, Starforge (I'm still mad at it, more so because tehy started the exact same style for their new game, ignoring the demand of fixes for the old one), A Hat in Time (a lot of people praise the game but all I see is that the developers cannot finish the product, giving us a Beta that still misses 70% of the promised content after two years development), War for the Overworld (the game itself is actually really good and fun but it was released in a very buggy and unfinished state, preventing me to play the game for multiple weeks until they found how to fix a specific bug), Infestation (do I even have to talk about that one? Just google it. You may find more under "WarZ").
This is of course my own fault, I could've waited for the full release or get some basic information. The problem with EA is, a lot of developers promise what will be there, players swear that this game will become the best game of the year and you are curious what exactly is so good about it. At first you will be surprised how that much stuff that was listed is not in the game but you say to yourself (it will be in it when it's finished) so you wait and wait. In the case of Starforge the game might remove even already finished features just because the developers thought the game does not need them or were to lazy to imptove/advanve them.

To get to the point, some dumb one, is it me or someone else, will always buy the product and this is already enough for a developer to continue with the next project (again, Starforge. They started a new game with exact the same gameplay but in another setting. Early Access too because why not? It worked the first time so it will work the second time again. And seeing how people buy it and praise ot I could go on a rampage).


Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Paid mods for skyrim
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2015, 12:46:26 am »
No dev ever can sustain itself with just 25ct of 1$ going to them...

18 cents, actually, once you account for taxes.

I was thinking when you work a normal job though, where your tax rate for extra income is downright insane.

Interestingly the far far most severe issue with this is stolen content. Since anything uploaded for free on the Nexus is now default flagged as "not allowed to be used for profit". But how would a mod author check this? There is no way to see mod content before paying money, and once you paid money it's Valve money, not real money anymore. So you have to pay money to the modder that stole your mod to see if he stole your mod or not. And you never get that money back.

This entire thing is just one huge wtf...

Steam poisoned modding for eternity, and imo this deserves some clapping. Steam and in that vein Valve finally became worse than EA. Modding was the last free bastion of creativity, and steam destroyed it. Now everyone is afraid someone else will steal their work. How in hell is that promoting MORE modding? 100% of the mods currently on the Steam workshop use NIF tools and thus a tool that is neither made by Valve nor Bethesda..

It just makes me super sad to see this. There was no need to cause such a shit-storm over such a pointless thing. But Valve apparently wants to engage in it, so lets have at it.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 12:56:31 am by eRe4s3r »
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Offline kasnavada

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Re: Paid mods for skyrim
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2015, 02:24:28 am »
Go look up the team behind the incredibly popular Space Engineers, and Miner Wars 2081 before that.  They use their own engine, developed entirely in-house, called "VRAGE".  And note:  They're a SMALL team.  Like, what, 10 people?  And what they've made is more impressive than what alot of bigger companies ever produce.  WAY more impressive.

Except you're wrong, it's based on HAVOK. They built another engine on top of it. What they did is somewhat impressive but that's not from the ground up at all.

Duh. http://www.keenswh.com/vrage.html

I'm not saying that it can't exist, just that it's becoming less and less common as time goes by for the reasons I state.


I have no idea what the point of this was. Can you make a tl;dr because you lost me. And I re-read that three times over.

I don't really answered you in the first place. Hence why I quote mick and I tried to answer his point about steam being the only reason for the current indy scene. I believe I'm quite extensive in my reply of why it's incomplete.



Quote
And, last point... It already happened. Where do you think that Valve comes from ? Ever heard of CS & DoTA ?
Valve got their start and big public success from Half Life and Half Life 2 respectively. Counterstrike started as a mod (I'm 99% certain) and so did DOTA 2. Again, not seeing the point here that you're trying to make.
Unless you're saying that all games devs will quit making games and make mods which will then become controlled by AAA devs in which case that's not happening. Regardless of what happens with Steam Workshop.

I don't know what your last phrase is about but I certainly never wrote nor implied this.

I know about the history of valve, the obvious point here is that they started as mods and were made into games. That's what's Bethesda & Steam are trying to enable here. Duh. How very strange that a company that made a large amount of money in the last decade based on variations taken from a mod, actually tries to enable paid mod support.

They're trying to make Skyrim (and other companies) into a game engine for others to make games on, via mod support. They're also somewhat trying to make the modder's some money but ultimately on this part I agree with this thread. There is no reason why anything "small" won't be replicated for free. But anyway, it's a good idea no matter how badly it's implemented, contrary to what this tread states.

And I should have separated my last point where I speak of market saturation, and where I answered Mick again. He somehow sees it as a treat to indy dev. It's a threat to indy companies individually but they'll be replaced (actually, are being replaced) by other all the time. As long as the conditions I state are true, and there is no reason for them to become false all of a sudden, it'll continue just like youtube "stars", TV "stars" and music "stars" are being replaced. And most barely scrap by with a second job to eat.


The more you know.
I'm sure they think so. And I'm sure the day will come when some mods are more equal than others.

But I absolutely don't want Bethesda's version of it to work.

(Also your jumping off a cliff metaphor isn't very good, you'd probably die because the parachute won't have time to fully deploy and slow you. The more you know!)

Yeah, the base version may not be really good. No qualms with that. Credits to them from trying though.

About the more you know :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BASE_jumping

Yes, it's called a parachute and can be done from a cliff. I'm not saying it's safe nor a good idea though.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 02:32:41 am by kasnavada »