Author Topic: Hearthstone  (Read 49930 times)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #105 on: June 02, 2016, 12:17:58 am »
Quote
I cannot open your link btw, it just sends me on the front page.
That's because the Forbes website is literally retarded, and you can't direct link to their pages (why? I have no idea. Probably because they can't monetize it that way, frakking corporate goonies).

The easiest way to read the article is to click this link, and it's the first result on the page. Basically the author talks about how he bought 140 packs of the new expansion within the first 2 days (expensive much?) and how even with all those cards, he stills thinks the C'thun mechanic is completely bogus.

I of course quit playing Hearthstone a long time ago because it was way too pay2win back then, now it looks to be vastly even more so, and because the game is so unbelievably luck-based that it's unforgivable. Like, it's a CARD game. The luck of the draw is enough luck as it is, why do you need to artificially add even more than that? Hell, in Hearthstone the card draw was probably the least of your worries in terms of all the horrible things that could happen to you purely based on chance.

That's why Duelyst is an objectively better game. The only luck was the luck of the draw, nothing else is based on chance, only on player skill. You could even swap out two cards per turn, so even if your luck was horrible you're practically guaranteed to draw something good eventually.

Well anyway, I don't necessarily think the C'thun strategy is imbalanced, but ONLY if you have access to all the cards. When I watch professional streamers play on Twitch, they can beat it because they have thousands (perhaps tens of thousands) of dollars worth of cards available to them. Unfortunately, to those people who don't want to spend their life savings on the game, they'll probably get beat by someone who has spent $50 on a C'thun deck. Hearthstone had such potential but it seems that every "expansion" Blizzard just makes it more luck-based and more pay-to-win. It's kind of sad actually.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #106 on: June 02, 2016, 08:03:38 am »
Hearthstone was never really that balanced to begin with. It was, at best, a casual card game. But I think they really drove the last nail in the coffin with the Old Gods expansion. They just straight up killed their own game, which is pretty impressive.
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Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #107 on: June 02, 2016, 12:10:56 pm »
I found the article. And he mentions the same problems: It all comes down who draws his C'thun earlier and those types of decks rely on one single card. This is the death of a card game. You cannot center an entire trading card game just around a single card. That's why it's a trading card game, you have a lot of different cards to collect and build your deck from and you can trade them (most TCGs nowadays don't even have this option anymore, including Hearthstone) with other people in order to get the cards you need for your deck while your friend gets the card he needs.n In every TCG there will rise decks with similiar themes but there still will be multiple viable options that don't rely on drawing one single mega overpowered card.

I'm currently into two card games.
One is he recently released "Chrinocle - Runescape Legends", which draws similiar inspirations from Hearthstone. Even the name is directly taken from it. "Hearthstone - Heroes of Warcraft", "Chronicles, Runescape Legends". Chronicles is the card game adaption of the MMO Runescape. But it works very different like any other card game even if it takes some inspirations from Hearthstone. it has also this "class based" deck bullshit, with cards tied to specifics classes. I don't like this kind of system but whatever. It works for this game better as for Hearthstone in my opinion.
Unlike other card games you don't summon monsters and attack your opponent until he is gone. You summon monsters to attack yourself. The whole game offers a simulated roleplay quest, you play your hero, your "legend", who fights with multiple monsters and get gold or other stuff from them. Hecan spend gold on support cards, for example a shop that sells you a weapon. Or you can buy armor. or a healing potion. Stuff like this. There are still cards that directly attack the opponent and some decks/classes are more designed around attacking your opponent directly than others. But the main game follows the pattern that you play five rounds (called chapters in here) and each round you can play up to four cards but you don't have to. You draw only three cards per turn anyway except you have a card that tells you to draw more. You "level" your character over the course of the adventure/match and at the end of the last round both characters, yours and your enemies, will fight each other until one dies. It's a really cool concept that I didn't see before in card games. There have been always card games with some type of RPG mechanic, but this game taes it to a whole new level.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/205890/?snr=1_4_4__tab-PopularNewReleases

The other game is Solforge, which recently got a new client. However, the new client is at this point still a mess. While optically it looks fine, it is not very much playable. It is bugged and when it came out literally nobody could play because the game was extremly slow, lagged and you couldn't even load a single match (the game just redirects you cak to the title screen after a long loading time). They seem to have fixed some of it now, the loading time was reduced but it's still not perfect at this point.
The game itself is however really good. Most cards in the game have three different levels (spells and cards) and when you play a card, you level it up but the leveled up version gets in the discard pile. Every fourth turn your discard pile is shuffeled back into your deck, so now you can raw the leveled up version which is stronger of course. There are four factions in the game, each with its own theme and you can build a deck of any two factions you want. The Alloyin feature tech race that specialises upgrade cards and enhancements on their creatures. They have most of the time a lot of cards with armor that reduces damage.
The Uterra are the "nature" rave, they live in a big underground forest and play animals and plants. They spam the field wit a lot of monsters and have also a lot of healing spells.
The Nekrium are the undead race, they play zombies and ghosts (typically). The zombies spawn most of the time a second time when you kill them. They also have a lot of instant kill and debuff cards. Interesting are the Grimgaunts, a "spectral knight" race that draws power from killed cards.
The Tempys are an elemental race that draws power from ice, fire and lightning. It is a very aggressive race that plays cards that deal a lot of damage but cannot live very long. They try to kill the enemy fast enough before he can play his most powerful cards and most of their spells target the enemy player directly.
There is however the stupid booster card system ont his game that I hate. All previous expansions are put int he same booster pack, so your chance to get cards you want get slimmer with every new expansion. However, you can sell cards you have more than four times (the maximum you can have in a deck of the same card). New expansion booster packs (packs that contain only the newest expansion) are sold for gold only, the premium currency of the game. You cannot gain any gold in-game. New players will have a big problem building the deck they want. also there are regulary card balances and some cards get whole new makeovers. Zimus the Undying is one of the most memorable changes they had. He was a very strong card that couldn't get destroyed anymore after he has reached his final stage. He would always come back after getting killed. He didn't had much HP but he had a lot of attack. Then they changed hit, that he can return only once, so when you kill him twice he is dead for good. People complained that he works now than any other zombie and that it does not fit his name "Undying" so they changed it again back to what it was before but nerfed his damage. A lot. He still is the annoying pest but at least now he cannot kill you alone.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/232450/


Edit: because of the problems with the new Solforge client, the game is now in a "free mode" state. Everything in the store costs now only 1 silver and every purchase made will be reverted when the game got rid of all the problems. So you can basically buy 1000 of packs and test all the cards you want. So if you want to try out the game, now would be the perfect time since you can see and test all cards that are aviable.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2016, 07:53:39 pm by TheVampire100 »

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #108 on: June 02, 2016, 09:57:50 pm »
I can't understand why people want to play games that require pay to win. Virtually every card game on the market is based around creating "expansions" which are treadmills.

I prefer card games that while still having elements of probability and chance (and understanding those odds is part of the skill), require knowledge and skill to be successful. Such as mah-jongg.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #109 on: June 02, 2016, 10:58:43 pm »
Basically every single TCG, Magic included, is "pay to win".  You have to buy cards in order to have cards.  That's... kinda how it works.  I mean, of COURSE Hearthstone is going to be like that.  This is the case for both physical and virtual TCGs.  And there's a reason why they're called TCGs, AKA, trading card games.  With the ones that ARENT Hearthstone you're expected to be trading with others to get the cards you want.  Hearthstone replaces this bit with their dust thing, which isn't as good but can still work if used right (though it's still dumb).

And yes, I know that there's a few things like the standalone versions of Magic where you can buy it as a "whole" game outright, but those are always horribly limited.  Other games like that that are bought outright tend to have very limited numbers of cards.

And sure, there are free-to-play games, but those tend to give you cards VERY VERY SLOWLY.


As for requiring skill and knowledge, uh.... they're ALL like that.... Hearthstone may be the most casual, but even that one still requires it (when it's not being unbalanced, that is).  All of the others REALLY require it.

Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #110 on: June 02, 2016, 11:43:30 pm »
Yeah, Hearthstone is real casual compared to most other TCG games, mostly because it is designed around fast and short matches with very basic and easy to learn mechanics.
Magic, whcih after all this years is still the "boss" among card games, is very complex and that may even be the reason why so many are drawn to Hearthstone. hearthstone is easy to play, Magic is tricky and takes a lot of time to learn all the different mechanics and stuff, esspecially since this stuff is NOT explaned directly on the cards itsels. For example flying units. On cards they are only tagged with the word "flying" and if you don't know the rules you wouldn't understand that they can only be attacked by other flying units (or ranged units which are also not explained ont he card itself). On PC versions this is of course a little different since pop-ups explain the different card abilities when you hover over them.

Now about what makes TCGs fun for me. I think mostly the collection aspect and the varity. I like to collect stuff. A lot of stuff. I was a huge fan of Banjo-Kazooie on the good old Nintendo 64 and I wasn't satisfied until I collected every single piece in the game. I remained this behviour when I joined Steam. I collect as many achievments as I can on games. Trading Card Games ae centered around collecting stuff, in this case cards. I buy boosters not because I want strong cards but because I just want NEW cards.
This also combines with varitiy. I need varity in games, I cannot do the same routine every time I play. While you can say card games also are centered around the same gameplay (you start a game, you play cards, you try to decrease your opponent's health points to zero), the matches themself are always different. You don't know what your deck your opponent has or what cards you will draw. This adds to the thrill of the game, not knowing what will happen next. Sometimes you course the randomness because you picked the wrong card from your deck, sometime you draw exactly what you need and are happy.

Then there is the skill requirement that Misery mentioned. How do these type of games require skill when they are luck based on what you get from boosters and what you draw in matches? It's used nt he way that you try to minimize the luck amount you need in a match. You create decks with the little you have. It's not that you need the best cards but use what you have in the best way you know. Putting the rigth cards in your decks will minimize the chance o drawing stuff you don't need. Picking different cards that work perfectly together if you can use them (Synergies) will help you in the later matches. planing your strategy before actual matches can be pretty fun.

However, maybe , Cyborg, you are interested more in this kind of card game: http://store.steampowered.com/app/337150/

Thats the digital adaption of "Sentinels" of the Multiverse", a very popular cooperative card game. It's NOT a trading card because it features no collecting or trading to begin with. The game is also aviable as real card game, not a pc game (if you prefer to play it like this).
The game is really really cool and I can only recommend it. I got it in some bundle and didn't care for over a year because I bought the bundle for something different but when I finally started to play the game I regretted that I ignored the game so long.
The gameplay is a little hard to descripe because it's not a tgc game but behaves similiar to one. In its core its a cooperative game that you play with friends. Each player plays one or more super hero (most heroes are inspired from classic DC and Marvel heroes but were invented for this game) and each hro has his own deck. You cannot modify the deck in any way, the deck has a fixed amount of cards and all cards are tied to that hero. So tehre are no booster packs you can buy, however you can buy complete expansion packs with new decks.
The players figth against a villain, also represented in a deck that was specialy designed to him. The decks represent the abilities and equiment of the heroes and villains they belong to. For example, the hero Absolute Zero creates, like his name assumes, has temperature control abilities, mostly ice (but in some cases also fire). In other words, he can freeze enemies with ice beams. He "absorbs" also all ice damage he would sustain, making him an effective tank and damage dealer.
Players play in turn one card each turn and a power (every hero has a special ability but can also get new powers from played cards), after that they draw a card ( at the END of the turn, not at the start like in other card games). The villain is represented through the game itself, no player controls him. Instead he plays the top card of his card and resolves the effect mentioned there.
The goal ist that the players combine their heroes and defeat the villain together. All villains (ansd also heroes) have a two sides and when the conditions are met, you flip them. Heroes flip when they are defeated and they can use the abilities mentioned there but are not allowed to use any cards anymore, villains get or loose abilities when they flip but flipped villains are not defeated, its just a different form of the same villain. For example the villain "Citizen Dawn" plays a creature oriented deck. She plays a lot of minions on her first turn and adds many more each turn, when you kill too many of them she flips too the other side and is invulnerable until there are enough minions on the field again.
When a player is defeated, he can still play but use only he three abilities mentioned on the backside of his hero card. The game is only lost if ALL heroes are defeated. Some villain decks are stronger/harder than other villains, representing stronger villains of the fictional world in this game.
For additional varity each game is played on a different terrain, the environment. The environment has its own deck and can affect both villains and heroes positivly and negativly. Like the villain it plays itself, just reveal the top card and resolve the effect.

If you have Tabletop Simulator you can play the game on PC without having to buy the digital version, the digital version is however more convenient because it resolves all the effects, buffs and debuffs automatically and you don't have to do all the math in your mind (which can be really painful for the more complex decks in the game).

If you decide to buy the digital version or even the printed version, buy also the expansions. I know I risk getting lectured by chemical_art again that I sound like a bot trying to sell something but in my opinion the true fun of the game starts when you have access to ALL decks of the game, not just 10 (not counting environment and villain decks). The base game however has some really good and interesting hero like Legacy (support hero with a lot of buffing abilities that affect other heroes), Absolute Zero and Visionary (control deck, messes with the villain deck so it's not luck based anymore what the villain draws/plays).
The villains of the base game are however not very interesting, the more interesting ones are n the expansion with unique play styles (I hate and love Spite because he flips the entire concept of the game and makes it to a cat and mouse scenario where he chases after civilians that you have to save).



Okay, long monologue about stuff that people propably won't even read, so I sum it up: TCGs are fun because of collectibles and strategies, Sentinels of the Multiverse removes the entire "pay to win" part of such card games because you have fixed decks and play with other players together instead against them.

Offline Mick

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #111 on: June 03, 2016, 07:13:47 am »
I can't understand why people want to play games that require pay to win.

Every month or so, some expert player creates a fresh account and streams themselves climbing the ladder to legendary without spending a single cent.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #112 on: June 03, 2016, 09:09:34 am »
Show me the source of this. In Hearthstone I don't believe that this would be possible within a month. The amount of cards you would need to be able to pull this off, plus necessary expansions, and lucky legendaries.

This may have been possible in pre-Naxxramus days, because the best cards were available for free, and even a lot of the basic cards were still pretty damn good. Nowadays things are completely different. You couldn't do it.
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Offline Mick

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #113 on: June 03, 2016, 09:46:46 am »

Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #114 on: June 03, 2016, 11:32:23 am »
Wingflier, I started playing Duelyst now too. May you give me your player name so I can add you?

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #115 on: June 03, 2016, 11:35:51 am »
Here is one from 2 days ago.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/4lw3pp/successful_1month_f2p_run_to_legend_on_asia/
It's probably due to me not playing HS, but those screenshots prove nothing to me.
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Offline Mick

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #116 on: June 03, 2016, 01:08:44 pm »
Here is one from 2 days ago.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/4lw3pp/successful_1month_f2p_run_to_legend_on_asia/
It's probably due to me not playing HS, but those screenshots prove nothing to me.

If you don't even play it, then what basis do you hold your opinion that Old Gods "killed their own game"?

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #117 on: June 04, 2016, 07:33:05 am »
Here is one from 2 days ago.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/4lw3pp/successful_1month_f2p_run_to_legend_on_asia/
It's probably due to me not playing HS, but those screenshots prove nothing to me.

It's a standard shaman aggro deck he built free, but 8 and 10 win arena is definitely VERY lucky on his part. He was grinding hard for that, if you play casually this might well take you 6 months.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #118 on: June 04, 2016, 08:12:55 am »
I actually have a few twelve win runs in Arena. One was 12-0.

A lot of it is luck, but some of it is knowing what cards to choose and how to use them. I've probably watched over 100 hours of streamers play the game easily, especially in Arena. Watching ItsHafu specifically was good experience, since she's considered the best Arena player in the world. Also using Heartharena or whatever to build your decks for you made it a hell of a lot easier.

Still, even winning 7 and above in Arena consistently, the grinding was extremely slow. Duelyst is also much better in this regard.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #119 on: June 05, 2016, 02:55:47 pm »
If you don't even play it, then what basis do you hold your opinion that Old Gods "killed their own game"?
Even though I don't play the game to know all the ins and outs of it, even I, as an outsider, can see how a card like C'thun (and more importantly, his very valuable ally set) will break the game utterly. That's not hard to see even for someone who doesn't play on a daily basis.

I do watch some let's plays now and then because it's still sort of interesting.
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