Author Topic: Hearthstone  (Read 54982 times)

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #60 on: May 14, 2014, 04:46:47 pm »
Everybody knows that MTG is unbalanced as hell - each season there are only 3-4 viable decks. What keeps it interesting is new sets/mechanics that come out regularly, and they are not trivial, so when players solved the current set the next is ready.

Ehm, where I live you can play MTG with "random draw" decks. You choose color/colors, get 25 (depending on choice randomized) lands, and you get to draw from the entire pool of cards from each color choice randomly. Which is, let me put it this way, not inherently more balanced, but a hell of a lot more fun ;p My appreciation of MTG comes purely from that, I never bought a single MTG card pack in my life. And I would not ever compete in leagues... sadly Hearthstone doesn't give you a real choice. Arena is way too random as Hearthstone doesn't have mana colors and so you can actually end up with 0 synergies.

I don't know anyone who'd be crazy enough to actually compete with own deck in a league. I mean, the stuff going on in leagues of MTG puts Hearthstone to shame (mainly because MTG has some insane card mechanics in later card packs ,p). And mainly because there are no card restrictions which in itself can be very very unbalancing ;p

MTG is still the better card game. Especially when you don't play it in a league.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #61 on: May 15, 2014, 06:46:29 am »
Oh, M:TG isnt as well balanced as all of that.

I've been into it for a LONG time, and indeed, I have a great many cards.  Recent sets, going all the way back to before Ice Age, which is downright ancient by this point.

Much like Hearthstone, early on MTG was an explosion of balance problems and busted mechanics.  Particularly before the "rules cleanup" that happened.... right around 6th edition?  Or was it 5th?  Heck if I remember.  It was a long while ago.  Let's just say that the early versions of MTG made the current version of Hearthstone look PERFECTLY balanced. 

And all of this is regardless of the match type being done.  I'll do "randomized cards" type formats every now and then, but typically I prefer constructing my own deck. 

As for Hearthstone's arena.... no, it's not overly random.  If it was, it would be impossible for the high ranking players to achieve the crazy consistency that they do.  The difference is simple:  They really know what they're doing.  Even I can see that Arena is pretty well done for a format like that, though I've also been a CCG fan for a bazillion years now, and have played way more than just Magic.  When I mess with Arena myself, it's rare that I can say "Well, it's TOTALLY just the RNG's fault", because as a rule, that's simply not true.   As with any CCG though, the player's own mistakes are very, very often seen as events ordained by the Random Number Gods, rather than the player's own mistakes or lack of planning/strategy/knowledge.  It's the easiest trap for players to fall into, and slows their advancement.  I can see things like this when watching others play this mode as well; analysis and recognition of ridiculously complex patterns is one of my core skills, both in gaming and out of it. 

All of this is one of the reasons why I consider it fairly well balanced, as far as it's limited card pool will go anyway.  For such a limited pool though, they did pretty darn good.


But, of course, they still really need to expand upon it.  Not do this silly single-player adventure stuff, argh.

I think when they do a PROPER expansion for the game, it'll be well worth the wait, but.... we shouldnt HAVE to wait that long in the first place, because that's what the FIRST expansion should be.  Bah. 

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #62 on: May 15, 2014, 07:33:54 am »
Yeah that's very true ;) But it's Blizzard.. 1 tiny expansion every 2 years is how they roll....
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Offline Misery

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #63 on: May 15, 2014, 07:41:50 am »
Aye, indeed it is.

Of course, this time I dont think they'll have a choice.  You cant keep players buying cards if there are no cards to buy.  And getting someone with a full collection to pay for Arena entry wont work either, because suddenly they need no gold for cards, and can use all of it just to play that mode if they want. Which means they wont see much reason to dump real cash on it.


I'm hoping that Blizzard is bright enough to understand all of this.... I guess time will tell.


Offline zespri

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #64 on: May 15, 2014, 03:23:52 pm »
If it was, it would be impossible for the high ranking players to achieve the crazy consistency that they do.  The difference is simple:  They really know what they're doing. 
That's an interesting point. Ever heard of Sirlin with his Yomi. Yomi has a small fan following, but many people feel it's too random. As in if two people with a big skill gap between them play 10 games the less skilled player will still win one ore two games just because of the luck factor. In chess, for example, that would not be possible and I don't believe that could ever be the case for MTG/hearthstone either.  Still, the argument that you gave about is exactly the argument the fans of the game use to tramp the "luck" is too powerful argument. But unless it's a game where there is no player choice or there is very little player choice this argument can be applied. Right? To almost *any* game. No matter how bad ruleset is or how bad the balance is the player who knows what he is doing will be consistently beating those who don't.

Offline zespri

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #65 on: May 15, 2014, 06:44:04 pm »
And while we are on topic of Yomi - it's been released for iPad https://itunes.apple.com/nz/app/yomi/id594630025?mt=8 I like that you get the half of everything for 13 dollars and the rest for another 13, not like the crazy subscription scheme with their in-browser implementation. Of course it all works cross-platform in the sense that you can play against those, who are still using the web site. Meta implementation (the lobby, the logging process, game creation, etc) is a bit clunky, but the game itself is implemented rather well.

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2014, 10:48:53 pm »
So to bring this up again.. oh my god what have I done..

Let's just say... i found http://www.slightlymagic.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=109

And also my ancient (haha) complete pack of Magic 2014 - Duels of Planewalkers .. I am pretty happy just having 120 card decks of varying levels of "INSANE" and playing randomly against them with my own crafted (from 5000~ cards) decks.

I know 2013 had some neat game-modes too, and there are mods for that too, but Magic 2014 at least is the magic I absolutely adore. With 3rd party deck-builder and all that new cards (you have to ehm, crack the game though, as you can't have steam interfering in your not-legitimate-custom-game-files or else everything goes bakoom).

Man, I have sunk so much time into this I find Hearthstone to be a complete joke! What can the small card pool in HS even do, when I can make an entire deck out of LANDS and CURSES, curses by the way, are awesome.

Or how about a CAT deck with a focus on gaining life, and a way to win the game without ever dealing a single damage point to the enemy? (By gaining 40 HP and dropping a specific card?) So much variations possible, and better still, the AI is extremely masochistic in 2014. If it sees your strategy it will not dawdle with a counter (above mentioned cat lifegain counter on life-gain and life on being hit via artifacts) was countered by random AI deck (green) as it dropped a creature that gained a +1+1 counter for each life-gain right when my stacked effects returned about 30 life to me, it was GG (in 2 headed giant ,p)

so basically, HS? Hah.. I never even considered you can actually mod the Magic 2014 games with new cards, new decks, new art, and NEW STUFF. And then create your own custom decks, and then PLAY AGAINST THEM ;P This is everything I eve wanted from a card game.. wee ;P
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Offline Misery

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2014, 07:19:20 am »
Feh.

I'm actually about to jump back into MTG myself.... but not with that 2014 Duels of the Thingy one.   I have a very old (as in, from beta, a billion years ago; I have *alot* of cards) account with MTG:Online (a totally different thing that's been around for some unholy amount of time) and will use that.   The 2014 game and it's predecessors are too.... limited.   I dont count modding, as with most games I very rarely care enough to want to bother with that sort of thing; only Minecraft is the exception.  ......that and I already have 10 billionty cards in the other one, am used to it, and it's hyper easy to get a match going in any mode/format, so.... yeah.   I'll stick to what I know.

As it is I only hadnt played in so long because of it being so expensive (exact same prices as the physical card game, which as you know can be a pricey hobby)..... until I very recently realized the damn silly amount I spend each month buying who knows what.  I aint exactly having money issues here, so I figure, I'll jump on back in.  I just have to get my old account info, which is annoying, I'll do that tomorrow or so.

I'd love to just play the physical version, but..... hah.  Yeah, like THAT is happening.  In an area that's too middle-of-nowhere for anyone to even know what a damn bookstore is, there sure as bloody hell arent any places to play MTG, or any other card game, or board game, or.... yeah.  Aint happening. 

Anyway, I look forward to it.


My interest in Hearthstone hasnt faded, BUT, I think whoever is making the decisions on the game is a damn idiot.  Like any TCG it NEEDS a constant influx of new stuff.  So what do we get?   .....singleplayer stuff.   And a whole 30 cards.  .......yay?

I swear, Blizzard Time is possibly even worse than Valve Time. 

Damn stupid idiots.  Oh well.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 07:23:57 am by Misery »

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #68 on: July 28, 2014, 09:37:26 am »
You my have a point in MTG 2014 being limited, but I'd rather take 5000 card pool free over 5$ for a booster pack ;) Still not trying to convince you to get it, I am just saying that you can extend MTG 2014 limitations (which it does have pre-modding) to encompass nearly a complete set of MTG cards and mechanics. And because you decide what decks you allow and the AI is more than skilled with each card it allows for endless re-playability (something online MTG does not have, as you know, higher ranks are always the same boring deck configs).

And I wanted to duplicate my lifegain deck in MTG Online i'd pay what, 500$ ? ;) Heck probably more as drawing in boosters or trading this  -> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=felidar+sovereign likely involves praying to dark gods and sacrificing kittens.

Anyhow, as you say.. HS could be the best TGC if they'd expand it properly, talking at least 100 cards per expansion...  When you compare it to MTG's card pool it's just not even funny ;/
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Offline Misery

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2014, 10:41:07 am »
Actually the trading and such in MGO is pretty easy to deal with.   I can remember very, very few times where I couldnt get whatever the heck it was I was looking for.

There exists an extreme number of what I always called "bot shops".   Essentially, prices are set for a shop, for every conceivable card (I assume there must be some giant database of doom somewhere that keeps track of this, that all these things must use), and you can go in, browse as you want, and typically find what you want.   The costs are generally equal to the card's actual value:  If you're looking at a rare card that might be, say, $15 to buy IRL, chances are it's about 15 in there too.   Though that's just an arbitrary number I pulled outta who knows where.  Very few cards ever go THAT high (that'd have to be REALLY freaking rare), though you likely already have a decent idea as to general pricing and such.

Either you can trade cards directly to it, so long as they add up to the value of whatever you're after (be it a single card, or a bunch that you're after at once), or you can pay with "event passes", which, aside from being used for events/tournaments (duh), are also used as currency, since they cost exactly $1.  With many of these things you can also "sell" unwanted cards for event thingies.  The things also couldnt care less most of the time if you're trying to trade for some uber-rare card from an alternate reality by throwing a big damn pile of commons and some uncommons at it, so long as it adds up.   


So that's basically how that works in that game.... as with any form of trading, it can be time consuming, as chances are during deck building there's multiple things you want, so of course you have to go through your own collection and see what can be parted with, and go look and see how much the thing you want is going for, and so on.....   The good thing is that most of the "shops" tend to have 8 quazillion cards, so most things are easy to find.

And, of course, there's normal trading as well, though as always for me I tend to avoid doing that if it's not with friends and such.  Some players of course will totally prefer this type, which I can understand.   But me, I'm impatient and when I want something, I want it RIGHT THE HECK NOW, so I just use the shop things. 


As for MTGO having dull decks to fight.... I've found that's not the case.  This isnt Hearthstone, where there's like, TWO damn modes, which is one of my few problems with that.   Every conceivable format that has ever existed for Magic matches in general exists in the online version, and i've found that it's usually very easy to find opponents for pretty much everything.   As much as I love the game, and TCGs in general, I'm not the super-serious tournament type, or that kind.  Alot of THAT, as you know, tends to involve the same decks, often COPIED from someone else, not built, and I haaaaaaaaaate doing that.  If I'm gonna have a deck, it'll be MY bloody deck.  I get no satisfaction out of a victory otherwise.   So I play piles of other modes, whatever the heck I feel like at the time.  Some of course are using only the card sets in the current rotations, some may be older sets only, others might be whatever the heck you want.... which is the other thing.... I wouldnt play this version whatsoever if I didn't get to have continuous use of all the cards I already have. 

As for dealing with AI, THAT one is up to the player.   USUALLY.... not always, but usually.... I get bored of AI in competetive games very fast.  Part of this comes from playing too many fighting games, where the AI is weak even at the highest levels.  And of course if you've tried Hearthstone at all, well.... then you've seen the lowest level of TCG AI, hah.   The AI has to be bloody BRILLIANT, as AIs go, or it's not gonna last long. 

....which is another thing about their damn expansion.   With AI that blasted weak, why focus on this singleplayer junk?  Ugh.   I have alot of respect for Blizzard, but I just dont understand them sometimes, I really dont.

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #70 on: July 28, 2014, 11:15:16 am »
Yeah the trading shenanigans are not unknown to me, but as I you know from what I wrote before, I never actually owned a single card ;) I was just... extremely "dumb" lucky back a millennia when I wanted to play MTG and in my school there was a group to play with that basically sponsored the cards and decks, no idea who exactly had owned all those cards back then but it was a blast, to just construct "fun" decks and have.. fun (To me MTG is never much about competitiveness, I rather play "Thematic" decks that tell a story and have a very tight focus on their specific synergy and race/color. You won't find a demon or fire spell in my white decks, you won't see me play decks that don't have a gimmick ;p Nor more than 1 angel in my human only white equipment/enchant decks. Nor will you find anything but *cats* in my cat lifegain deck (which by the way, is a blast in 2 headed giant, 1 AI attacks, and my deck is focused on gaining life, it takes at least a 10/10 unblocked over 3 turns to even bring us down to 30 again usually. And the allied AI will even try to maintain this lifegain advantage, it will protect your own important artifacts with counter spells if it has them and all that.

But Misery, when you say the AI in HS.. forget everything about AI you know related to card games, the AI in MTG 2013/2014/2015 is absolutely masochistic insane hardcore. It has 100% awareness of synergies, if it sees one, it will play it so utterly you wish back the times Ai was stupid.

I've lost games with my (hand-constructed) out of pure synergy vs synergy combat, that only happens when the enemy is on par with your abilities, after all, if you don't see synergies (like the AI in HS) then you can't properly fight. One specific deck (pure white exalted focus) I basically just won by sitting attacks out until I had 2 specific artifacts (Which I thankfully had put in the deck) that gave me counters per combat damage and per damage taken and allowed me to put -1-1 counters on enemies or 2 life for each counter on the artifact and gain +1 life on each upkeep (so basically 2 health per turn), AI responded by scrying for a shrouded creature card to prevent me from -1-1 it's attacker to death and from then on only attacked with that and tried to out-damage the counter heal. When it saw my artifact, it also played a "sacrifice to destroy artifact" creature. Only reason I won that is because my artifacts were hexproof thanks to 1 of my creatures...

Point being, the AI in MTG 2014 is equal to human intelligence. ;) I wouldn't play it if it were otherwise...  And since you can construct decks for the AI, if you make an OP deck, the AI will show you how to properly use it if you had doubts ,P

Anyway, all I really mean to say is.. I had no idea you could mod all the cards into Magic 2014... I always thought the same way you did, MTG games were always so limited, with stupid SP and grinding and all that, (Hence you need to crack it, for one it unlocks all cards, and secondly you need to stop it from checking card hashs. But now I have 7700 cards to choose from in the deck builder, and that means you can craft any deck you could possibly want... and give it to the AI ;P
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Offline Misery

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #71 on: July 31, 2014, 09:14:54 am »
Hmm, actually it's occurred to me that there's not much reason for me NOT to buy the blasted thing and give it a go... $10 doesnt mean much.  So I might do that.  I would at least like to experiment with it a bit, and if they can manage to actually keep up with the various releases as they come (or a bit after, even) it might help for deck building for MGO since it'd let me test card ratios (which is bloody difficult to get right and drives me up the wall) against something that isnt a real opponent.  I hate jumping into a "proper" match and then finding that I totally screwed up the counts for various card types.  Which I do often.

....that and it might be nice on my laptop.  Typically if I'm using that it means there just plain isnt a modem or network of any sort nearby. 


If I should go to do this, just what kinds of mods are required?  To get the full effect I mean. Looking into it briefly I *think* I found a deckbuilder (didn't 2014 not have a proper one, or something? The unmodded version anyway)

And I'm curious about this AI. I've a hard time believing that about it though, as most of the time when I hear a game has "amazing AI, it's so smart" I end up crushing it like a bug.  But we'll see.


So yeah, I might just do that.




And on the note of Hearthstone itself,  I've had a chance to have a look at this new thing of theirs.  It's.... interesting.  To begin with you face of against a series of "bosses", which have varying degrees of nastiness.  I watched an experienced player get outright deleted by them a couple of times, though that's not strictly the AI's doing, as the boss decks are able to break certain rules, and their hero powers are also unique to each boss (and typically really nasty).  However, the guy I was watching still completed the initial run through this week's DLC (there's 5 of them, being released weekly) in the base mode in like, say, 30 minutes.   There's a "hard" version to do, and "class challenges", and once  you've done those, that's it for that week's content.   In other words, there's an OK amount of stuff there.... but nothing that'll LAST all that long.


And what REALLY gets me about this is player reactions to it.  Like, HOLY CRAP ITS SO FREAKING GOOD sort of reactions.   I saw one guy say "Finally! It's here! If Blizzard keeps putting out stuff like this, it'll keep me paying and playing forever!", and it's like.... okay, do you even know how long it takes to go through this?  Cause it's looking to not take very much time, and then you've unlocked everything and are done.


On the plus side the new cards are.... interesting.  Moreso than I expected, their mere existence will utterly warp the meta for the game. Not a bad thing at all.  Though it doesnt excuse the fact that there's still only 30 of them.....

I'll be interested to see where Blizzard goes with it from here.  One way or another they WILL have to address the low card pool at some point, as it's not something that can just be ignored forever.

Offline madcow

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #72 on: July 31, 2014, 02:46:10 pm »
On the new hearthstone content. I went through the first released wing (the free release) and I had no trouble really. I did both the normal mode and the class challenges and only lost once or twice. I have only the basic cards with barely anything unlocked and I didn't even need to change my decks from the ones I had built a month or two ago (when I last played hearthstone).

In short. The first wing was easy even for somebody that is a hearthstone newb without any special cards unlocked (I have a few packs I got from unlocked gold).  The heroic mode I haven't tried but it looks substantially harder. Maybe the newer wings have more difficulty, I couldn't say.

 It was a fun distraction but I personally don't see it drawing me in enough to play again or buy the expansions.  This is from the perspective of a non-CCG player.

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #73 on: July 31, 2014, 04:22:16 pm »
Hmm, actually it's occurred to me that there's not much reason for me NOT to buy the blasted thing and give it a go... $10 doesnt mean much.  So I might do that.  I would at least like to experiment with it a bit, and if they can manage to actually keep up with the various releases as they come (or a bit after, even) it might help for deck building for MGO since it'd let me test card ratios (which is bloody difficult to get right and drives me up the wall) against something that isnt a real opponent.  I hate jumping into a "proper" match and then finding that I totally screwed up the counts for various card types.  Which I do often.

....that and it might be nice on my laptop.  Typically if I'm using that it means there just plain isnt a modem or network of any sort nearby. 


If I should go to do this, just what kinds of mods are required?  To get the full effect I mean. Looking into it briefly I *think* I found a deckbuilder (didn't 2014 not have a proper one, or something? The unmodded version anyway)

And I'm curious about this AI. I've a hard time believing that about it though, as most of the time when I hear a game has "amazing AI, it's so smart" I end up crushing it like a bug.  But we'll see.


So yeah, I might just do that.

You want basically ALL the cards packs in that forum ;) They all work, journey to NYX, official 2010, 2013, 2012 cards, and the various other card packs  and Riiaks deckbuilder, you need that because the stock deck builder only allows you to edit your in-game "deck" (default cards, + unlocks) while the external deck-builder allows you to create entirely new decks with the modded cards you download. Decks you can download too, unless you want to create your own ones the whole way.

You also need the manual mana tapping mod and the other mods all have some other dependency.. some API extension or some such..

There is some duplication going on of course with the "yearly" card packs because the games often had identical cards.. you also want CORE fixes that fixes existing decks and cards. And simply look around, moving a WAD in the folder and testing it in riiaks deck builder is not taking much time. If it loads in the deck builder, it will load in the game.

As for AI.. well let's just say it can do what the deck it has allows it to. ;) Only 1 issue exists, related to poison counters. (AI doesn't know it loses with 10 of them)

Lastly, you need the injector DLL from Riiak that disables the WAD signature check and steam profile stuff. Hence why you want a crack (even if you own the game ,p)

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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #74 on: January 20, 2015, 09:44:03 pm »
*Necroed*

So recently I've been playing Hearthstone (I had a friend that wanted to play then I got hooked on it).

I have few problems with the game itself, which is simple but addicting like most card games, though Blizzard did a very good job. There are some particularly overpowered cards that you see over and over and which it seems everyone agrees should be nerfed, but that's probably the case in every game.

My biggest complaint though is that the unranked matchmaking system is just HORRIBLE. It's like Blizzard kicking you in the shin while simultaneously getting you from behind. It is so incredibly broken and favored towards people who have spent money on the game.

To those who don't know the game that well, "Legendary" cards are essentially the best cards in the game, with a few exceptions. They are also extremely expensive. For the most part, the only way to obtain them is to win them by sheer luck through opening packs (the chances are extremely remote) or by spending 1600 crafting points on them. Well, obtaining 1600 crafting points without spending money could probably take weeks or months. And that's ONE Legendary. A single freaking Legendary card after weeks of playing, if you're lucky.

I currently have 2 Legendaries, one of them is class specific and the other one I sometimes don't even put into my deck because it's very situational. It's not one I've ever seen anyone else use in the month I've been playing, and it's certainly not top tier by any stretch of the imagination. For the most part, I craft my deck out of the random cards I get from packs when my gold allows.

I've got to say, I make some pretty dang good decks with just the hodge podge of crappy cards the game has given me, and this has become abundantly clear by the fact that Blizzard keeps matching me against people who have obviously spent hundreds of dollars on this game. When my opponents have 5 of the best Legendaries in the game every single time in your deck, including tons of good Epic and Rare cards (I typically only have an one or two Epics in each deck), it no longer matters how good my deck is, I'm going to get squashed like a bug. Why would they not design their unranked matchmaking system to match players based on money spent, I have no idea. I've spent $4 on this game. That's it. That may be all I'll ever spend. So why not put me against the other players who have spent $4? Because I'd crush them I presume. Frak you Blizzard, I'm so ragey right now.

I mean I wouldn't even really care that much. Okay, I'm too good, now you gotta put me against the people who have spent their life savings on your cash cow. I get it. However, I can't even completely my daily quests anymore because I'm getting put up against Pro McWannabe and Mom's Credit Card and I'm so sick of it.

It seems I can either spend more money on the game or just quit doing my daily quests because I spend so much time losing to people who are obviously rich that it's not worth it anymore. In Arena, I do extremely well because it's always an even playing field but this, this has just become ridiculous. Sorry, just wanted to vent.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 09:54:37 pm by Wingflier »
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