Author Topic: Hearthstone  (Read 54980 times)

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #75 on: January 21, 2015, 12:47:59 am »
Pretty much agree, and this is a problem all card games have that run any kind of constructed decks. Scrolls has the same problem btw. Your starter decks include creatures that have an "randomly found" equivalent creature (same price) but +1 on each stat (+ haste) meaning even if you play properly, you are never, ever, going to win against someone who has the +1 cards of your starter deck. Because he can kill any of your creatures while you can kill none of his.

And add to that the massive randomness of what you draw vs how badly you are going to loose if you don't have the proper AOE spells in your deck... it's just.. boring. Think it's just an inherent flaw in card games that have such constructed deck modes and wonky match-making (Hearthstone specifically has the absolute WORST...) at least on EU servers
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #76 on: January 21, 2015, 02:54:15 am »
That's the case with games that allow too much disparity between cards. Shadow Era COULD potentially have the same issue, but since EVERYTHING in Shadow Era is ranked, you'll quickly climb out of the "newb ranks" if you are either good or have bought a complete "iWin"-deck you read online. That said, most good decks can probably be built by someone who plays a little every day in fairly short order as cards aren't that expensive in Shadow Era.


But yeah, I get the same feeling from HS. It doesn't matter if I'm awesome, because I'll still get completely pasted by Mr EveryGoldCardEver McSpamLegendary
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Offline Misery

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #77 on: January 21, 2015, 04:41:37 am »
*Necroed*

So recently I've been playing Hearthstone (I had a friend that wanted to play then I got hooked on it).

I have few problems with the game itself, which is simple but addicting like most card games, though Blizzard did a very good job. There are some particularly overpowered cards that you see over and over and which it seems everyone agrees should be nerfed, but that's probably the case in every game.

My biggest complaint though is that the unranked matchmaking system is just HORRIBLE. It's like Blizzard kicking you in the shin while simultaneously getting you from behind. It is so incredibly broken and favored towards people who have spent money on the game.

To those who don't know the game that well, "Legendary" cards are essentially the best cards in the game, with a few exceptions. They are also extremely expensive. For the most part, the only way to obtain them is to win them by sheer luck through opening packs (the chances are extremely remote) or by spending 1600 crafting points on them. Well, obtaining 1600 crafting points without spending money could probably take weeks or months. And that's ONE Legendary. A single freaking Legendary card after weeks of playing, if you're lucky.

I currently have 2 Legendaries, one of them is class specific and the other one I sometimes don't even put into my deck because it's very situational. It's not one I've ever seen anyone else use in the month I've been playing, and it's certainly not top tier by any stretch of the imagination. For the most part, I craft my deck out of the random cards I get from packs when my gold allows.

I've got to say, I make some pretty dang good decks with just the hodge podge of crappy cards the game has given me, and this has become abundantly clear by the fact that Blizzard keeps matching me against people who have obviously spent hundreds of dollars on this game. When my opponents have 5 of the best Legendaries in the game every single time in your deck, including tons of good Epic and Rare cards (I typically only have an one or two Epics in each deck), it no longer matters how good my deck is, I'm going to get squashed like a bug. Why would they not design their unranked matchmaking system to match players based on money spent, I have no idea. I've spent $4 on this game. That's it. That may be all I'll ever spend. So why not put me against the other players who have spent $4? Because I'd crush them I presume. Frak you Blizzard, I'm so ragey right now.

I mean I wouldn't even really care that much. Okay, I'm too good, now you gotta put me against the people who have spent their life savings on your cash cow. I get it. However, I can't even completely my daily quests anymore because I'm getting put up against Pro McWannabe and Mom's Credit Card and I'm so sick of it.

It seems I can either spend more money on the game or just quit doing my daily quests because I spend so much time losing to people who are obviously rich that it's not worth it anymore. In Arena, I do extremely well because it's always an even playing field but this, this has just become ridiculous. Sorry, just wanted to vent.

Yeah, I can agree with this for the most part.

My one huge problem with Hearthstone is that very simple fact that higher rarity really does tend to = better cards.  Now, that's not always the case.... some of the basic cards (that you start with) are absolutely fantastic when used right... but in an overall sense, it's very true.

It particularly annoys me as a longtime fan of Magic.  In that game, rares tend to have a very specific couple of qualities:  1, they are stronger, but 2, they are alot more risky.  Getting a 10/10 creature seems all sorts of strong at first... but is made alot less good if you have to sacrifice 3 other creatures to get it.  Particularly if your opponent then just deletes it on the next turn.  And so on.  So it's a powerful card, but only if you're very careful with it.  Make a mistake with a card like that, and you'll basically just be shooting yourself in the foot. 

But yeah, there are too many players out there that'll just abuse the hell outta the "just keep buying cards" bit.  I admit to being the "Mom's Credit Card" sort myself, as you so eloquently call it, in that I can just buy whatever I happen to want at pretty much any time simply because I'm bored or something.... but I generally refuse to use that sort of tactic with games like this.   With Magic it's fine because of how it's balanced:  With Hearthstone it just bothers me because of how it's NOT.   So I just refuse to do it.   Same as how I just refuse to use infinites and such in fighting games.  Where's the challenge or satisfaction in that?  Boring.

....also I'm going to start calling people "Pro McWannabe" now when I run into that sort, because that name is hilarious.

Offline Zebeast46

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #78 on: January 21, 2015, 07:01:49 pm »
If you guys are looking for a significantly less pay to win game then hearthstone and a game which requires more skill than hearthstone try infinity wars. After 5 hours of playing I received 360 cards just playing against the ai by beating the campaign. With those cards I was able to make a pretty good deck. The reason why I said it requires more skill is because turns happen at the same time, so you have to guess what your opponent will do, because of this it is very difficult for there to be a best play or a best course of action unless you can predict the future. The two downsides are that the community is a little small and the card base is a little small too, but on the flipside all the cards are animated!!!
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Offline Misery

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #79 on: January 25, 2015, 07:36:23 am »
So, continuing with this, and..... uuuuuugh.

I really do wish they would balance out the bloody legendaries a bit better.  I'm still playing with a relatively low available card pool (though for the level I'm at, it's not bad at all), but I still will run into "heavy" cards that I really cant do anything about.

Like that bloody Warlock card that completely replaces the Warlock character with that demon jerk, the one that can summon 6/6 things just by paying 2 mana as the hero power.  And has 15 health.  With no counter I can think of aside from something like a Mage's Counterspell.  Since it's not a minion, once it's played there's nothing you can really do.   Had that happen just now, though other than that it WAS a really good match with alot of back and forth lunacy.     

Still, just a bit irritating... even if it is fun.  Not an unbeatable thing, I've beaten a transformed Warlock before, but it's very difficult to deal with. 


....also the matchmaking can indeed be a bit of a snot sometimes. 

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #80 on: January 25, 2015, 09:16:30 am »
So, continuing with this, and..... uuuuuugh.

I really do wish they would balance out the bloody legendaries a bit better.  I'm still playing with a relatively low available card pool (though for the level I'm at, it's not bad at all), but I still will run into "heavy" cards that I really cant do anything about.

Like that bloody Warlock card that completely replaces the Warlock character with that demon jerk, the one that can summon 6/6 things just by paying 2 mana as the hero power.  And has 15 health.  With no counter I can think of aside from something like a Mage's Counterspell.  Since it's not a minion, once it's played there's nothing you can really do.   Had that happen just now, though other than that it WAS a really good match with alot of back and forth lunacy.     

Still, just a bit irritating... even if it is fun.  Not an unbeatable thing, I've beaten a transformed Warlock before, but it's very difficult to deal with. 


....also the matchmaking can indeed be a bit of a snot sometimes.
To be fair though, Jaraxxus is just impossible to counter if you were already behind and would've lost anyway. Because otherwise when Jaraxxus is spawned, you can just rush him down. 15 HP isn't a lot.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #81 on: January 25, 2015, 10:49:52 am »
Actually at the time I'd been quite well ahead; He was at about 6 life, I was at 21, I had a decent minion out, he had one rather small taunt minion (like, 2/3 I think it was).  But he then got out his 6/6 before I could kill the stupid taunt, aaaaaaand.... the game proceeded to give me 3 spells in a row as draws.   This being a paladin deck, these werent exactly super duper removal cards.  Pretty much any of my remaining minions in the deck woulda done a world of good.

Fortunately the game doesnt pull that one often.  But when it does, ahh.... it's like getting "mana screwed" in Magic.   Always hated it when that happened.  That particular card still bugs me though, has from the very start.


Doesnt help though that I also just dont have much in the way of high-end late-game cards;  I have mostly Ysera, and... Ysera.  Still have so much collection-expanding to do.

Offline The Hunter

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #82 on: January 26, 2015, 07:43:37 am »
(haven't posted for ages)
The complaining about legendaries always makes me want to facedesk...

There are alot of good decks that don't use legendaries, and cards like Boulderfist Ogre and the new Force Tank are a decent sub for endgame if needed. There's alot of removal and Jaraxxus is actually not hard to deal with unless you are already losing, easily dealt with with any kind of burst, and countered with Ooze/Harrison, and if you really dont like to see him you can even run Sacrificial pact. ;)
Also pally has one of /the/ removal combos with Pyro/Equality or Equality/Concecrate.
Legendaries are pretty balanced, well, except for maybe Dr.Boom which is being run by everyone nowadays.

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My one huge problem with Hearthstone is that very simple fact that higher rarity really does tend to = better cards.
Not really, look up deck of legendaries and deck of epics vids and see how "well" they go.  :) Really though, decks with low mana curve like zoo are being run alot and contain barely any or none of legendaries. Legendaries aren't really required to win.

Also Trump has made some series where he got to the legend rank starting from scratch and using F2P decks with like 1 epic max and no legendaries.

If you are losing just because of legendaries then you are doing something really really wrong.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #83 on: January 26, 2015, 11:55:44 am »
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Doesnt help though that I also just dont have much in the way of high-end late-game cards;  I have mostly Ysera, and... Ysera.  Still have so much collection-expanding to do.
Ysera is still Ysera, possibly the best lategame Legendary in the game :D. I wish I had it ;p

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There are alot of good decks that don't use legendaries, and cards like Boulderfist Ogre and the new Force Tank are a decent sub for endgame if needed.
They aren't really that great honestly. Comparing Force Tank and Boulderfist Ogre to their Legendary counterparts is kind of a joke. Nobody runs Force Tank really, it's too expensive and too easy to counter.

Dr. Boom is yeah, extremely stupid.

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Not really, look up deck of legendaries and deck of epics vids and see how "well" they go.
Actually Warrior decks do pretty well stacked with Epics and Legendaries, an example build by a professional player here.

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Also Trump has made some series where he got to the legend rank starting from scratch and using F2P decks with like 1 epic max and no legendaries.
That was before Naxx and GVG friend. Those decks he made would get absolutely demolished in the current meta. Naxx, $25 minimum, is more or less required now to get to Legend. Welcome to the future of Blizzard gaming.

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Really though, decks with low mana curve like zoo are being run alot and contain barely any or none of legendaries.
Once again, all the current zoos require, at the very least, Naxxramas, so you're still looking $25 minimum in order to run it. Using Pre-Naxx zoos won't cut it anymore. Also, one of the only reasons zoo is so powerful right now is because of the extremely overpowered Undertaker, and once that gets nerfed, chances are they fall out of favor or at the very least become a lot more expensive to craft.



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Offline Misery

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #84 on: January 26, 2015, 08:38:10 pm »
Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with Wingflier here on this one.

The situation with Jaraxxus, for instance.  Burst him down?  You have to HAVE some burst, first.  I barely have anything resembling late-game options (which is what I call anything used to deal with large threats) to even PUT in my decks, let alone use.  Equality + Consecration, which I already naturally have in the deck.... yeah.  That works ONCE, this being because I have only ONE Equality card;  I'd already used that combo earlier in the match at a key moment.  It wouldnt have helped actually take him down anyway without anything heavy to hit him with, because he'd just fart out more giant minions.  Harrison Jones I have (a legendary though, note), having stuck him in there after getting overly annoyed by weapon-related threats, but he never showed up in that particular match despite being in that deck as well (wouldnt have stopped the 6/6 plague though).  Ysera is in there too, because yes, but also never showed.

And I'm not saying that a deck needs to be stuffed with just legendaries and epics.  My problem is that most high level decks will definitely have some of each, and the way things are balanced out, alot of the legendaries are all good, no risk.  Or at least, nothing that I personally would put under the "risk" category.   Look at Ysera for instance.  Drop her down, she's got a damn silly 12 HP, and one way or another, you're getting at least one dream card out of her;  and it's not THAT hard to help her stick around longer.  Best of all though, she doesnt have a true risk-reward aspect.  She doesnt eat half your minions when you play her or suck away 10 of your health.... you JUST pay the 9 mana, like playing any other expensive card.... and that's it.  And yeah, you could say "well being super expensive is the risk" but that can be applied to any card, and many legendaries ARENT super expensive, being more normal-priced like other cards, yet still having way more power/utility as Ysera does.  Typically once I do get Ysera out, she's *going* to cause some major problems for my opponent, or outright end the game.

I dunno.  As a big fan of CCGs in general I always find it so hard to NOT compare things to Magic;  Ysera there would do something like eat 2 of your creatures at the end of each of your turn in return for her services, making it so that you lose alot more than just mana if you put her out only to have her destroyed the next turn.  It'd balance out the gigantic power a bit, beyond just "be expensive".   And I sure aint saying there arent some fantastic non-epic/legendary cards, because of course there are..... but there's still just too many cards that are one of those two, and offer gigantic power with little risk, the only true "cost" being the difficulty of getting the bloody things.   Heck, Ysera I had to craft;  I knew full well how good she is and that I could make some darned good use of her, so definitely wanted that one, but.... argh, yeah, it takes alot to craft a legendary indeed. 

Aint saying the game as a whole is an unbalanced mess or something... it's still a fantastic game as far as I'm concerned.   Particularly now that a true expansion has appeared.  And the balance as a whole is doing pretty nicely too. But sometimes.... that "pay 2 win" feeling can appear at least a bit (granted this can happen with ANY card game, but still, I get it from this game most of all).   Naxx didn't help with that one bit; such a small amount of total cards, yet so costly!  I havent bought that one yet (just have that first episode) mostly just out of lazy (I will likely do it later tonight actually, because I keep meaning to), but I've certainly noticed that it seems quite important to have right now, despite it's cost.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 08:40:26 pm by Misery »

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #85 on: January 26, 2015, 08:55:40 pm »
Naxxramas is absolutely necessary to participate in the current meta. It's chocked full of extremely powerful cards. Sludge Belcher, Undertaker, Loatheb, Duplicate, Zombie Chow, Dark Cultist, just to name a few. The neutral minions are so good they make most of the vanilla minions, especially the starting ones, look pathetic in comparison. Making a deck without access to these cards would be painful at best.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 10:08:22 pm by Wingflier »
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Offline The Hunter

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #86 on: January 26, 2015, 11:04:48 pm »
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Comparing Force Tank and Boulderfist Ogre to their Legendary counterparts is kind of a joke. Nobody runs Force Tank really, it's too expensive and too easy to counter.

Polymorph, hex etc gets either, also boulderfist ogre is actually harder to counter cause its BGH immune.

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Actually Warrior decks do pretty well stacked with Epics and Legendaries, an example build by a professional player here.

Not really what i meant by decks of legendaries  :P

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That was before Naxx and GVG friend. Those decks he made would get absolutely demolished in the current meta. Naxx, $25 minimum, is more or less required now to get to Legend. Welcome to the future of Blizzard gaming.

Actually his last one was post naxx.

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extremely overpowered Undertaker

*facedesk* That card has alot of counters, like about all 2 mana removal, axe, silence, and so on, and if you draw it not in opening hand its really bad. I've played it myself at some point and it was pretty rarely out of control. Actually play things before calling them OP.

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this being because I have only ONE Equality card

Craft another one instead of complaining that you cant deal with opponents stuff because you are lacking essential removal? Get a couple of peacekeepers while on it too. Also having not much in terms of burst is pally's weakness, so you are getting countered as well.

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<MTG stuff>

From a perspective of someone who haven't really played nor liked MTG, i would find Ysera unplayable if it required 2 other minions. Just 9 mana is actually a big risk, cause you are pretty much have to skip turn and its actually pretty difficult to find perfect time to play 9 mana card at times. Dr.Boom only one legendary that i can think of that is being edgy, but thats likely to get hit with nerfhammer as there were cards in the past that every deck ran that got hit.

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And if you really don't like constructed, just play arena and friendly challenges, or fun decks like Randuin Wrynn, rank really doesn't matters currently anyways.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #87 on: January 27, 2015, 12:08:07 am »
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Not really what i meant by decks of legendaries  :P
Errrrrr...a viable deck full 7 legendaries when you have NONE is basically impossible to beat unless you've also spent money on the game, in which case you would have some decent legendaries. I think that was the point?

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Actually his last one was post naxx.
Trump is trash anyway. He's not a competitive player, I've seen him run arena he made countless mistakes. He couldn't hack it at SC2, he's not an authority on Hearthstone by any stretch, I have no idea why people even reference him. Anyway, show me that post-naxx basic deck that got him to legend.

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*facedesk* That card has alot of counters, like about all 2 mana removal, axe, silence, and so on, and if you draw it not in opening hand its really bad. I've played it myself at some point and it was pretty rarely out of control. Actually play things before calling them OP.
High level players have explained that the card is problematic, or outright overpowered. It's pretty much the glue that every aggro deck hinges on at the moment, which in itself should be proof enough that it's too strong. Anyway, you can hear what the pros have to say about it here if you're interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/2sq55i/what_the_pros_think_about_undertaker_team_archon/




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Offline Misery

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #88 on: January 27, 2015, 08:03:07 am »
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Craft another one instead of complaining that you cant deal with opponents stuff because you are lacking essential removal? Get a couple of peacekeepers while on it too. Also having not much in terms of burst is pally's weakness, so you are getting countered as well.

The crafting idea would be super duper.... if I wasnt entirely out of dust, and out of cards that I'm willing to turn into dust.  I wouldnt have mentioned it otherwise, as I'm not very patient when I have to wait for something, so I would have just already done it.

Which actually showcases my OTHER problem with the game:  Not enough options yet.  Certain cards end up being in *every* deck, or nearly every deck, for the classes they are a part of, because there just isnt anything else to really choose from for that slot that can occupy that role.  The mage's Flamestrike, for example.  Pretty much always there. There just isnt really any other options that might be chosen INSTEAD of that.   And that's boring.  It's like having a card slot that's already selected FOR you.  Obviously not EVERY deck ever uses that, for mages, but it's so freakishly common that it may as well be that way.  Or the fact that the consecration combo is "essential board clear", having to nearly always be there for Paladins is also kinda dull.

As for that second bit... that's part of the problem to me.  The solution to that transformation card is "use alot of burst".  If I happen to be playing a class that isnt made of burst... that's kind of a dumb reason for the thing to suddenly become nigh-unstoppable.  I consider it unbalanced because I've yet to hear of a DIFFERENT way to stop it other than "do a whole 15 damage really super fast somehow".  While it farts out 6/6 minions for 2.  While playing other cards.


From a perspective of someone who haven't really played nor liked MTG, i would find Ysera unplayable if it required 2 other minions. Just 9 mana is actually a big risk, cause you are pretty much have to skip turn and its actually pretty difficult to find perfect time to play 9 mana card at times. Dr.Boom only one legendary that i can think of that is being edgy, but thats likely to get hit with nerfhammer as there were cards in the past that every deck ran that got hit.

The thing about Ysera though:  Once it's out, it's nothing BUT positives.  Which is my problem with high-rarity cards as a whole.  There's no thought process in using Ysera;  you just play it at the right moment, and if you have it in your deck, you probably have something specific in there to protect it.  It becomes a pretty simple play, and it merely needs to exist to provide constant, strong benefits.  In MTG, it's not that simple.  You have to figure out a good way to get the thing out.... but then you ALSO have to deal with the challenge of KEEPING it out while not screwing yourself over.  This is what keeps high-power cards from ending up like Jaraxxus:  A card with that guy's power would have some detrimental effect that gave it an actual risk-reward sort of thing.  Not JUST in "how much it costs", but in other interesting ways as well that complicates the decisions you have to make.  Manage to keep him out safely, and you have great power.... but screw up, and he'll explode in your face.  This ALSO increases the amount of potential strategic options available to BOTH players when said card is out, and adds to the complexity as such.   That sort of thing is why I still like MTG more than any other game I've yet encountered.  This one just doesnt do that.  EVERY TCG manages the "direct cost = difficulty in playing", so HS having that at all doesnt mean much.  It's that nothing restrictive happens once they're already out, and that there's very rarely an ADDITIONAL cost, that bugs the hell outta me.   Even if I'm the one playing the card in question.  As such I dont find Ysera to actually be very entertaining to use.  I still LIKE that card, mind you, I just think it isnt all that interesting.

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And if you really don't like constructed, just play arena and friendly challenges, or fun decks like Randuin Wrynn, rank really doesn't matters currently anyways.

Constructed is what I'm used to with these, so I'll end up doing it the most.  Arena has a cost to it, which annoys me a bit;  typically when I'm interested in a particular mode in a particular game, I'm probably going to want to play it like 20 times in a row;  cannot do that with Arena.  So I've ended up just not having very much interest and have just been using gold on card packs. 

Currently though I am indeed somewhat ignoring the ranked mode, which is typical for me in some types of competitive games (like MOBAs, argh argh argh).  Part of that though is also that I find it to be a good way to learn the cards, particularly as I refuse to "netdeck", this being because I find it kinda boring.  I get more satisfaction and fun if I just do it myself.

Also dont take my comments though to be as harsh as they might sound, because I *always* sound like this even about games I absolutely love (I call myself Misery for alot of reasons, and that's one of them, is my inherant negativity).  Minecraft currently reigns as my favorite game overall, but I could probably rant for 3 pages about problems that I think it has.  Or MTG:  I ramble about it's values, and I do think it's fantastic, and I've been playing it since the Ice Age set (which is downright ancient at this point) but.... yep, another multi-page rambling wordblob for that one, I could write.

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #89 on: January 27, 2015, 08:27:52 am »
Ysera is actually one the worst balanced cards in HS imo. It should have 3 HP, not 16. The reason is it gives you an instant unique card draw. And cards that you give you instant abilities should have severe downsides to them.

I give you an example how a comparable minion should look (And does look) in MTG, now remember MTG has ... a shit-ton more cards, and mana colors are a huge factor...

Indulgent Tormentor
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383276

5 Mana, 5/3, highly situational and opponent has option (and defenses) against allowing you to draw a card.

Often you follow this with other creatures, like

Rune Scarred Demon
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=263730

already a 7 mana creature, and gives you 1 chosen card (very powerful thing to play in MTG) still only a 6/6

Normally you have a black deck with more base cards
Shadowborn Demon
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=371402&part=Shadowborn+Demon

Phyrexian Rager
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=240576

Paragon of Open graves
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=384192

Notice how these cards all have downsides to them, and are not actually hard to kill. (flying demons aside ;P)

Some of the cards I play in my black death-touch deck of demons. Also Rotfiend, Gravedigger, Treasure find only green spell via (Green/Black gate) and of course, zombies ;P Because I also have that demon that requires sacrifices unless you have 6 dead minions in the graveyard. And then of course tons of assassinate, hunger (sacrifice) and death-touch related stuff. The only way I loose with this deck is if the enemy has immunity to black or tons of negative enchantments ;p

Just as an example how card draw minions are balanced in MTG... I don't actually play anything better than rare in this deck. (That said, I was lazy and should probably look for more green spells that give hexproof or related. Only having 1 green spell is a really shitty synergy for a black(land/gate)/green(gate) deck ;P
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