Author Topic: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic  (Read 21645 times)

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #105 on: February 08, 2016, 11:26:52 am »
At least not without, at the very least, regular testing every 6 months to see if the person even knows how to handle the gun safely and can fire it with even remote accuracy.
This is an interesting point. Practically speaking I would be perfectly fine with that, since that would not effectively put any limits on me. But politically and morally we come back to the issue of putting a basic right - self-protection - at the mercy of state institutions.
Well, we can all argue what "self-protection" entails. It's by no means a universal thing. You can protect yourself unarmed, if necessary. So that's kind of a slippery slope argument. As for putting rights in the hands of institutions: It's no different than a driver's license, or in this case more apt: A pilot's license. You HAVE to have a certain amount of flying hours in order to keep your license. To keep your skills at a necessary level. I know "self-defense" and "flying" are two completely different things, but considering the disproportionate amount of damage civil guns cause contra what good they do, I still think some form of education, testing and follow up is necessary.

Personally, I'd ban guns in an instant. Because again: Enough people are idiots to VASTLY outnumber the sensible people so it's not worth the damage. But it's really a moot point. Guns are so ingrained in the american culture that you probably cannot ban them without inciting a civil war. And even if you did, there are SO MANY guns in circulation that it'd take multiple generations to reduce gun-related crimes. Probably along the lines of 100+ years. It's just not feasible so the argument is moot. I'd rather see a stricter system that puts requirements to owning and keeping a gun. Educate people and demand a skill level. That's probably the most efficient way to reduce idiot-related shootings. But perhaps I think too highly of homo sapiens. We are, after all, a pretty darn daft species.
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Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #106 on: February 08, 2016, 12:19:43 pm »
Sure I can protect myself unarmed, but it's a lot riskier and more difficult to use a blackpowder cannon / crossbow / sword / bear trap / knife / stick / bare hands / whatever's legal against a burglar or mugger. And why that increased difficulty? So that the criminal who obeys the law will have to resort to knives or numerical superiority instead of guns? So the mugger and/or burglar is protected from the evil of gun violence? So that only the physically weak are targeted?

Gotta go, will continue at some other time.
Edit: Already back.

You think of eliminating freedom that might be abused, I'd rather have harsher punishments for those who do abuse.
Differently spun: I'd rather put more responsibility in the hands of the individual, even if that carries risks. You'd rather be safe than sorry.

I suppose we have completely different perspectives on the relationship between individual, society and state - because giving our (US-American, Scandinavian, German, applies to all of them) states even more powers and responsibilities seems to me like the single worst thing we could possibly do, politically and socially. But other people - I suppose including you - would rather transfer ever more responsibilities to the state in order to regulate - in ways that please them - the lives of everyone within a society.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 12:55:03 pm by Shrugging Khan »
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #107 on: February 08, 2016, 01:36:54 pm »
It's not so much a "will to give the state more power" but more a case of "I don't want my fellow retard neighbours free access to guns that they might kill me with over a 'whose cat pooped where dispute'"

I simply do not trust humans to treat eachother with respect (and I do believe I have ample statistical evidence for that fact) so giving everyone weapons that can easily mow down hundreds of people doesn't seem like a bright idea.

Besides I live in a WAY more safe society than you are so I'm most likely biased. The idea of everyone carrying guns sounds absolutely abhorrent and a HUGE risk for escalating drunken violence for instance. Right now the worst kind of general violence we have here is bar fights (unless you count gang violence, which is confined to a couple of suburbs in large cities). It's simply 95% bad and 5% good to give swedish people guns right now. Our criminals aren't armed, for the most part. And if they're armed, it's with pocket knifes. Giving them (as citizens) easy access to guns is a REALLY bad idea.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #108 on: February 08, 2016, 01:44:13 pm »
Guns are tools.  Guns aren't the issue.  It's the people that feel the need to pull the trigger that are the issue.  You can take away all the guns in the world and people will still kill people.  People have been killing other peoples since peoples where actually peoples.  Our tools for doing so have just gotten better.  So instead of blaming the tools, find a way to actually solve the issue of people wanting to kill other people.
In an ideal world this would be so. I'm a liberal. I ABSOLUTELY believe that people should have the right to self-determination and the government shouldn't poke their nose in things that is none of its business. IN THEORY.

However, having seen just how utterly stupid people are and how badly guns are handled, I see no reason whatsoever to allow guns in the civilian populace. At least not without, at the very least, regular testing every 6 months to see if the person even knows how to handle the gun safely and can fire it with even remote accuracy. You know like Police officers (at least here in Sweden) are forced to do. Fail the test and your guns get impounded until you pass.

My problem isn't with liberties or whatever, it's the fact that people prove, multiple times per day, that guns in civilian hands are an utter disaster. It brings very little positive and a mountain of problems to the table.

Yep.

You put it alot better than I can with my rambly... ramblings.

But that's typically how I think of it.  You can call guns "tools"  (though I always think... tools for WHAT, exactly?  Are they going to help me get a stuck drawer open, or fix my car, or....?) or you can call them weapons or... whatever.  It doesnt bloody matter; I dont know why people tend to worry about those words in defense of the damn things.   But that doesnt change the simple fact that most people, as in, nearly all of them, should NEVER be allowed to have one.   Were it up to me, all of the damn things (military and such aside) would be dumped far out into the ocean somewhere.  *ALL* of them.  Everyone would be dramatically safer that way.  I'm sorry, but people are freaking IDIOTS.  As I'd already said, I tend to view the average person as being dumber than a sack of hammers, and this is because I've had so many experiences that prove this to be correct.  These people should not have these things.  EVER. 


And no, this wont stop criminals, of course.  But it will stop or slow down pointless accidents, random shootings done by someone who STOLE a gun from some damn idiot that didn't know how to secure it *properly* (and, frankly, I suspect very, VERY strongly that nearly every gun owner in the country falls into that category), random shootings done by someone who was able to BUY a gun because of how easy it is to get them, sudden killings done by people that ARENT criminals but that pulled out their stupid gun ANYWAY and fired it out of anger, or things of that nature.  People in defense of guns tend to just use "well it wont stop CRIMINALS to get rid of them, now would it?" and not even remotely consider the 10s of squillions of dimwitted/stupid/nasty acts carried out by those that ARENT criminals. Or the fact that making guns so easy to get makes it that much easier for someone to START being an armed criminal.  Or also accidents that happen because someone THINKS they're careful enough, good enough, skilled enough with their moronic guns to "protect" themselves or others.... and then they very abruptly find out that, oops, they arent (again, this one would be applied to nearly all gun owners).


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Differently spun: I'd rather put more responsibility in the hands of the individual, even if that carries risks. You'd rather be safe than sorry.

That, actually, is the big problem.  Because by doing that?  You're NOT making things safe rather than sorry.  You are, in fact, creating a DRAMATIC chance of things going sorry rather than safe.  Giving guns to people that are too damn stupid to use them (again, nearly everyone) is a BAD idea.  Give something that deadly and dangerous to a complete moron, and you've just created a walking bomb that could go off at the slightest provocation.  It's not that they'll (always) use it in anger or something; it's that STUPIDITY could get themselves, or someone else, or multiple people, hurt, permanently maimed, or killed.   And it's just just stupidity that can cause it, but a lack of anything resembling REAL skill and training.  All the intelligence in the world with the damn things means nothing if you just accidentally shot your wife instead of the intruder because you didn't actually have a damn clue how to REALLY use the thing.

And... by thinking that way... you're also putting too much confidence in yourself (general statement, not directed at you specifically; I mean that this happens whenever someone arms themselves in most cases).   If you have training, PROPER training?  Then the confidence is well placed.  If you DONT?  Then I'm sorry, but no.  It isnt.  It's the same damn delusion that everyone has; that if THEY have it, of COURSE it'll be safe in THEIR mighty hands.  Bad things dont happen to THEM.  Of course THEY can be the action hero everyone needs in a time of crisis.  Of COURSE nothing will go wrong.  Of COURSE that sudden hardened, experienced criminal wont just whip the damn thing out of your often slow-to-react hands (sorry, but most people really are slower than dirt) and blast you in the face with it.  Of COURSE not!   That people think this way so readily is one of the biggest problems there is with this.



Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #109 on: February 08, 2016, 02:04:37 pm »
We could also do the really stupid thing and say: Why aren't we giving everyone nukes? We should have the right to defend ourselves, right?
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Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #110 on: February 08, 2016, 02:50:21 pm »
We could also do the really stupid thing and say: Why aren't we giving everyone nukes? We should have the right to defend ourselves, right?
We aren't giving everyone nukes because
1) Most people would not be able to personally maintain and securely store a nuclear weapon
2) There's no precedent
3) It's not cost-effective
4) They're not suitable for personal defence because
4a) They cause immediate death to the user
4b) They're too unwieldy
4c) It's entirely impossible to not injure uninvolved third parties with them
5) Radioactivity is a pony
6) We aren't giving everyone guns either
Among a number of other reasons.

Wall of Text.
So the vast majority of people are potentially violent, incompetent idiots who perpetually overestimate themselves and get in over their heads? With a view like that, how can you justify giving those retards the vote and the right to own property? They're just going to ruin everything for everyone!
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Offline Misery

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #111 on: February 08, 2016, 03:13:13 pm »

Wall of Text.
So the vast majority of people are potentially violent, incompetent idiots who perpetually overestimate themselves and get in over their heads? With a view like that, how can you justify giving those retards the vote and the right to own property? They're just going to ruin everything for everyone!

If you're expecting a denial or an arguement against that... I must disappoint.

My answer is a couldnt-possibly-be-more-emphatic YES.  A thousand times yes.  Yes yes yes.  Very definitely.  Absolutely.  I 2000000% agree with what you just said there.

I've dealt with... far too many people in my time.  Call it the result of having had 10 squillion different jobs over the years, back when I used to work.   ALL of which involved dealing with the general public... each a different subset of it.  Not to mention experiences in college and.... other things.  And then it changed when I STOPPED working, and I got to experience other places and meet other groups.  All of this... ALL of it... proved my point a thousand times over.  The idea is cemented in my head as absolute and total certainty.  I dont know how it is in other countries, but the average person HERE is, frankly, a moron.  Often a drunken and slow moron.   They should not be given guns, or weapons of any sort.  Frankly, plenty of them can barely even handle what duties they do have in their own JOBS.... even something as simple as being a store manager.  I cant count the number of braindead (and also power-hungry... in a STORE) idiots I've dealt with over the years.  More than a few of which even tried to screw me over in some way (none of which succeeded, but the results were typically entertaining).  And you think THOSE people should have such a ridiculously dangerous thing in their hands?  I think not.

And even when you're dealing with someone intelligent and careful?  Or perhaps posessing other qualities?  If they DONT HAVE PROPER FREAKING TRAINING (and I DONT just mean going to a shooting range), they should not have a gun.  They should not.  I would not trust MYSELF with a gun.  I have a few of the qualities that could work with one; I'm *very* fast, and very coordinated.   BUT.  I've certainly never had anything resembling training or experience like that.  And I'm an incredibly spacey individual (with the problems caused by autism, no less) who can try to make a sandwich but forget the bread (I really wish I was making that up).   That's me being absolutely honest about myself... something most people dont seem to be able to do. And, I'm often on very powerful medication, such as Tramadol, which is an opioid (taken to control my pain; fortunately, I dont have to CONSTANTLY take it).  I dont NOTICE any side effects of the meds I'm on... but that doesnt mean there arent any.  In theory, such a thing could interfere with using an object like a gun.   Just like any of those people I mention... I should not have a gun.  There's too much risk.  I, at least, am capable of not just admitting this fact, but RECOGNIZING it.  If more people could do that... then the current gun laws really might not at all be an issue.  But most either cant... or just refuse to.  I, though, admit and recognize it, as I care about friends and family first and foremost, and refuse to put them in danger due to some ill-conceived decision of that sort.



Now, as for things like voting that you mention... in THAT case, I simply dont CARE.  Politicians never seem to do any good.  Vote for whoever, it doesnt matter to me.  They're likely to cause some sort of derpage one way or another, whoever they are.  And I just haaaaaaaaate politics to begin with.  To me, it's just a joke (and a bad one).

Owning property, like a house, I simply know literally nothing about (and again, no interest), so I have no comments on that one.  I"ve never been in a position to learn about that, and that's not likely to change anytime soon.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #112 on: February 08, 2016, 04:23:25 pm »
Quote
We aren't giving everyone nukes because
1) Most people would not be able to personally maintain and securely store a nuclear weapon
2) There's no precedent
3) It's not cost-effective
4) They're not suitable for personal defence because
4a) They cause immediate death to the user
4b) They're too unwieldy
4c) It's entirely impossible to not injure uninvolved third parties with them
5) Radioactivity is a pony
6) We aren't giving everyone guns either
Among a number of other reasons.
It's interesting that you're creating a whole list of reasons why we should not give plebeians nuclear weapons, yet on Anarcho-Capitalist Libertarianism, that's exactly what would happen.

When the government becomes disbanded, all the nuclear stockpiles are up for grabs to whoever can get their hands on them. In other words, the most powerful and destructive weapons in the world in the hands of people that I wouldn't even trust with a plunger. Nevermind the complete lack of training and qualifications formerly mandated by the federal government and military structure that these people will have.

The United States alone has over 5,000 nuclear warheads distributed among dozens of different silos around the U.S. Let's put those in the "hands of the people" and just see what happens. I'm quite certain that it won't be self-defense. This is just one of countless reasons I can't take Libertarianism seriously.

Quote
One of your studies used data supplied by the Brady Center, the other one is from the DoJ and I've seen that one interpreted in any number of ways, at least half of them implying the opposite of what you saw in it.
There's statistics out there to prove any given point, and I honestly can't bring myself to put overly much trust in them. Especially when the government is pushing all available levers to get stricter gun laws on track, or when the statistics really do use data supplied by a vehement anti-gun group.
Factor in the hundreds of different ways to read and present any single study, and it's pretty damn hard to trust any information coming from those.
I get your point (and the point that's been made several times in this discussion), that evidence and statistics can be twisted to a certain extent to support any worldview. In spite of that, you shouldn't throw out the evidence altogether, because it usually points to a certain conclusion.

Take for example people who think the world is flat (they exist). They have their own evidence of this claim. For example that our experience, taken at face value, everything seems to be flat, stretching on for hundreds of miles. They could discredit pictures of the Earth taken by satellite as a hoax and provide statistics to support their belief in a flat world. However, when you look at the evidence of both sides, it's clear that one side has an overwhelming advantage.

This is more easily observed in a much more controversial discussion - the debate over whether the Earth is 6,000 years old. At least half of the American population believes it is. They will quote all kinds of "evidence" and "science" to support this claim. And there is a relatively large minority of scientists who actually believe the Earth is this old. But once again, when you take a fair look at the evidence for both sides, you're really only left with one conclusion.

That's how I feel about this debate on gun control. It seems like study after study after study points to the same conclusion: Arming the population does not decrease crime. It does not make the country a safer place. I know that's how people think it works in theory, but in practice that's just not how it pans out. Because good people do not want to shoot other people, even if its deserved. And bad people will shoot people without a moment's hesitation or remorse. If we were all robots designed to shoot in specific scenarios where our lives (or the lives of people we cared about) were endagered, then yes, it would make sense. Or if we all had extensive military training. That's just not the world we live in. I think we have to be realistic about what allowing people to have assault rifles actually does.

« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 04:28:05 pm by Wingflier »
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Offline Misery

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #113 on: February 08, 2016, 04:56:36 pm »

This is more easily observed in a much more controversial discussion - the debate over whether the Earth is 6,000 years old. At least half of the American population believes it is. They will quote all kinds of "evidence" and "science" to support this claim. And there is a relatively large minority of scientists who actually believe the Earth is this old. But once again, when you take a fair look at the evidence for both sides, you're really only left with one conclusion.

Wait, what?

I read through all of that and just sort of locked onto this bit and had a total brainfart.  Just... what?  Does not compute.  Does not compute!

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #114 on: February 08, 2016, 05:31:41 pm »

This is more easily observed in a much more controversial discussion - the debate over whether the Earth is 6,000 years old. At least half of the American population believes it is. They will quote all kinds of "evidence" and "science" to support this claim. And there is a relatively large minority of scientists who actually believe the Earth is this old. But once again, when you take a fair look at the evidence for both sides, you're really only left with one conclusion.

Wait, what?

I read through all of that and just sort of locked onto this bit and had a total brainfart.  Just... what?  Does not compute.  Does not compute!
It's finally changing, but yes, for about the past 100 years the number of Americans who accepted Creationism has trumped the number of people who accept modern science.
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Offline Cinth

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #115 on: February 08, 2016, 06:08:34 pm »
Germany has one of the most ethnically homogeneous nations, and one that is sorely embarrassed about its past (to the point where it banned anything Nazi related. Grow up Germany). 
Please don't mention Germany. We have so many mental and cultural issues it's not even remotely comparable to anywhere else.

That was said in response to something that was said way earlier in the thread.  I've nothing against Germany  :)

I'll say I'm glad that the tone of this discussion has taken a turn for the better.  Kudos folks.  Let's keep it civil :)


Firearms ARE tools.  Just like computers only for different purposes.  If you don't see that, then I can't help you.  City folk might not agree, but firearms can put food on the table and provide protection form dangerous wildlife.  It can also be a deterrent. 

Really, I think it boils down to personal responsibility (in a nation where it's been eroded away almost completely).

Just a reminder here that banning firearms won't stop anything.  http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-2640236
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Offline Misery

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #116 on: February 08, 2016, 07:03:55 pm »

Firearms ARE tools.  Just like computers only for different purposes.  If you don't see that, then I can't help you.  City folk might not agree, but firearms can put food on the table and provide protection form dangerous wildlife.  It can also be a deterrent. 


Oh, you dont have to be in a city to not see the use of them.  I live out in the bloody middle of freaking nowhere (you cant get me to even go NEAR a city... not freaking happening; lived in the country for as long as I can remember).  Well, for two houses anyway, house #3 is in a slightly more "has stuff in it" area, but even then, there's not much there.  But for the most part, aside from a shopping district that's somewhat nearby, there's just... nothing.  As animals go coyotes are particularly common here (also, skunks, ugh) and coyotes arent exactly safe to be around (DEFINITELY gotta keep an eye on your pets around here if they're outside, that's for sure).  But weaponry isnt what keeps them under control or keeps you safe from them:  Knowledge is.  Something like a gun ends up just being a crutch (AND still an unnecessary danger) used by those that are too damn lazy to learn what's necessary to prevent a situation from developing in the first place.  Particularly when it comes to animals; understand the animal in question, understand what to do in dealing with them... and you have no troubles.  Which is something I personally am very good at, but then I took the time to learn that stuff.  I sure do prefer not to run into skunks though. 

All the more reason why I dont see guns as tools:  Because they dont DO anything practical. Useless devices.  And again I dunno how it is in other countries, but certainly around here, nobody carries them as "tools".  They carry them to feel strong and all that crap. They carry them because they're "awesome" or "cool". And again, usually without training.  Again, the general populace is fantastically stupid like that.  I dont mean just about guns, they're just bloody stupid in an overall sense.


Quote
Really, I think it boils down to personal responsibility (in a nation where it's been eroded away almost completely).

Exactly.  And THAT is a huge part of why arming everyone, or even most people, is an amazingly dumb idea. That ONE concept is enough to turn the idea of "have guns be available" into one of the dumbest things possible.  Because that's really how it is here.  Personal responsibility?  Nah.  Everyone would rather just go get drunk and make morons of themselves... among other things.  It's depressing and annoying.  There's times I wish I could just leave, since I haaaaaate what society tends to be like here (at the very least I'd like to move to a different state) but that's not in the cards, nope.

Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #117 on: February 08, 2016, 07:53:56 pm »
That was said in response to something that was said way earlier in the thread.  I've nothing against Germany  :)
Well, I didn't take it that way. It's just that German mentality is complicated in a very particular way and comparisons with it are largely useless for this debate (as long as it focusses on the US-American situation).

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Misery, where in God's name do you live?

Living in the countryside, almost all people I know are polite, reliable and reasonably intelligent (and those who lack in one category usually make up for it in the others). This excludes teenagers and a certain type of underclass, and the latter exists almost exclusively in urban areas.

I have trouble imagining the hellhole you're forced to live in, and how it made you so jaded.

It's interesting that you're creating a whole list of reasons why we should not give plebeians nuclear weapons, yet on Anarcho-Capitalist Libertarianism, that's exactly what would happen.

When the government becomes disbanded, all the nuclear stockpiles are up for grabs to whoever can get their hands on them. In other words, the most powerful and destructive weapons in the world in the hands of people that I wouldn't even trust with a plunger. Nevermind the complete lack of training and qualifications formerly mandated by the federal government and military structure that these people will have.

The United States alone has over 5,000 nuclear warheads distributed among dozens of different silos around the U.S. Let's put those in the "hands of the people" and just see what happens. I'm quite certain that it won't be self-defense. This is just one of countless reasons I can't take Libertarianism seriously.
It seems you've been exposed to a species of Libertarian thought that's frankly retarded. Besides, Anarcho-Capitalism? Yes of course anything thus named is nonsense, and so is disbanding the government overnight and leaving everything including nuclear subs and silos up for grabs. I really hope you aren't trying to set that kind of dumbest-case idiocy up as a strawman here.

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Offline Cinth

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #118 on: February 08, 2016, 08:17:48 pm »
All the more reason why I dont see guns as tools:  Because they dont DO anything practical. Useless devices.  And again I dunno how it is in other countries, but certainly around here, nobody carries them as "tools".  They carry them to feel strong and all that crap. They carry them because they're "awesome" or "cool". And again, usually without training.  Again, the general populace is fantastically stupid like that.  I dont mean just about guns, they're just bloody stupid in an overall sense.

And you've likely never had to worry about where your next meal comes form.  Go down to the local market and get some "fresh" meats.
I've had fresh (I mean just slaughtered and butchered and went into the fridge) meats.  Deer is good stuff (so is rabbit).  You aren't getting the last two at most grocery stores.  You have to go get it yourself (or know someone who hunts).  We used to go on fishing trips where you had to catch your dinner.  We would pack food for breakfast and some lunch stuff, but if you wanted dinner, the group needed to catch fish.  Good times :)

There are also regions in the US I wouldn't go without a firearm.  Places like the Yukon, Idaho-Montana wild lands or Detroit.  Those places are inherently dangerous.

Quote
Quote
Really, I think it boils down to personal responsibility (in a nation where it's been eroded away almost completely).

Exactly.  And THAT is a huge part of why arming everyone, or even most people, is an amazingly dumb idea. That ONE concept is enough to turn the idea of "have guns be available" into one of the dumbest things possible.  Because that's really how it is here.  Personal responsibility?  Nah.  Everyone would rather just go get drunk and make morons of themselves... among other things.  It's depressing and annoying.  There's times I wish I could just leave, since I haaaaaate what society tends to be like here (at the very least I'd like to move to a different state) but that's not in the cards, nope.

That's not a gun issue, it's a societal one.  It's no different than getting drunk and getting into a 3000 lb guided weapon (btw it's illegal to drive drunk, yet it still happens).  Everyone seems fine with trying to put a bandaid on a symptom and totally forget about root causes.


That was said in response to something that was said way earlier in the thread.  I've nothing against Germany  :)
Well, I didn't take it that way. It's just that German mentality is complicated in a very particular way and comparisons with it are largely useless for this debate (as long as it focusses on the US-American situation).
I agree, you can't compare the two.  I'm sorry if something I said offended you (I take issue with some things the German government has done in the wake of WWII, not her peoples.).  If not for your cultural heritage, I wouldn't have had this place to go to, Helen, GA.  It's a small town built like a Bavarian alpine town.  They even have an Oktoberfest.  It's always one of my favorite places to go, year round (I'd like to see the real deal someday).

These posts were more or less what I was responding to.  It's pure drivel form one person.  I hope this adds a bit more context to what I was saying.
https://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,18209.msg195679/topicseen.html#msg195679
https://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,18209.msg195683/topicseen.html#msg195683
Quote from: keith.lamothe
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Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #119 on: February 08, 2016, 08:30:08 pm »
I agree, you can't compare the two.  I'm sorry if something I said offended you (I take issue with some things the German government has done in the wake of WWII, not her peoples.).  If not for your cultural heritage, I wouldn't have had this place to go to, Helen, GA.  It's a small town built like a Bavarian alpine town.  They even have an Oktoberfest.  It's always one of my favorite places to go, year round (I'd like to see the real deal someday).

These posts were more or less what I was responding to.  It's pure drivel form one person.  I hope this adds a bit more context to what I was saying.
Ah, even when I write in English it seems to come over as Angry German. I was not offended in any way, so don't worry about it!

Also, Oktoberfest. Oh god. Overpriced beer, air that's 50% smoke and one part sublimated vomit, bad music and a crowd so large you can't reach the toilet without soiling yourself. I'd wager the knockoffs are more tolerably fun than the real deal, to be honest :P
(I won't be going near the damn thing, even though I'm glad we have that tradition).

I take issue with some things the German government has done in the wake of WWII
Not to go off topic, but what exactly are you referring to?

The beatings shall continue
until morale improves!