Author Topic: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive  (Read 18466 times)

Offline Misery

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2013, 07:57:42 pm »
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One problem with the fighting game bar idea:   There's no guarantee that the player will understand what they're looking at.   Hell, I've met fighting game fans, who play such games, yet still dont actually know how the damage works and what exactly the bar is representing.   Doesnt help that not all such games even use that kind of system. And that's for people that actually play those.

It's one of those things that's often taken as a given by many gamers, like "How could anyone NOT know what this means?" despite the very high chance of many actually indeed not knowing what it means.  It's exactly the type of UI problem that needs to be avoided here, particularly since mistakes related to regen/healing/shield values or whatever can pretty much end your mission in this game, and that happening because a part of the interface is funky would suck, for whoever is playing it.  Roguelikes, in particular, generally do not use this kind of display for representing anything at all, which just worsens it.   Alot of fans of this sort of game arent going to be the sort that'd play fighting games and have seen this, but instead will most likely be the sort that already plays roguelikes, or strategy games, or RPGs of multiple possible types, and so on.

Phew. This is a tough one. I guess it just depends on how obvious and intuitive you want to make things, then. The absolute simplest thing that everybody would understand and that works is simply having an active ability with a limited resource pool (exactly like stealth) that regenerates a certain portion of health per turn. Use it after a tough battle and if the area is clear no need to wait around. Use it before a tough battle to increase tankiness. Use it mid battle if you're worried about being one shotted. It's tactical, it mirrors the current behaviour of the stealth mechanic, and it works.

I am personally interested in this fighting game bar mechanic, but then it's nothing new to me. To others, as you say, maybe it would leave them confused as to how it works.

I don't think the idea of "push this button to heal the damage you took in the last shot" is much better, both mechanically (not a fan personally), and in terms of understanding. You can't really use it while under fire since giving up a turn while being shot is usually a bad idea. People are going to use it later, and they'll wonder why when they got blasted for 300 two rounds ago did they only recover 15 from the healing button?

The fighting game bar isn't just in fighting games: Dragons Crown uses something similar for boss fights. You may have to explain it to people, but they already have to discover how viruses work, how the AoE spread patterns on guns that aren't obvious bursts work (like the shotgun and it's odd pattern), and other things. So I don't think it's going to be a big deal. If the mechanic itself is sound, we can probably find a way to convey it in the UI.


Yeah, theoretically, it's not THAT hard to understand something of that nature, but.... like I said, most of the people that'd be into this would be the sort that arent likely to have played any games that use something like this. 

You can also sorta look at it similar to how stealth originally worked;  what you had there was sort of a "dual" UI element (I cant think of a better term as I"m not entirely awake), which had to show not only how much total stealth you had, but how much you could use in any one go.   Essentially.... it was doing the same thing we're talking about for regen.   And it confused the heck outta some players.   And really, when you think about it, it actually wasnt very complicated whatsoever, but it WAS proof that something like that can still be confusing for some players.   And if I recall correctly, tooltips and such DID explain it, yet it still confused.

For something like this to work best, it needs to be instantly recognizable, without much (if any) explanation or previous context necessary.  Something like sentries, viruses, mines, or the current stealth implementation:   you look at any of those, and there's a nice simple number there, you know "Ok, I have this much of that right now".  There's no other information there to process (and thus confuse).

The whole thing isnt a particularly big deal, but I do still think it needs to be considered.  The one thing that I have heard, every single time an Arcen game is released, is people being confused about something within the interface, or thinking something is not giving them enough info (even if it really is giving it to them just fine, which it usually is....).


Offline Winge

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #46 on: September 24, 2013, 08:42:53 pm »
The whole thing isnt a particularly big deal, but I do still think it needs to be considered.  The one thing that I have heard, every single time an Arcen game is released, is people being confused about something within the interface, or thinking something is not giving them enough info (even if it really is giving it to them just fine, which it usually is....).

Maybe we're just used to the Arcen way of presenting things  8)
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2013, 11:18:38 pm »
Maybe we're just used to the Arcen way of presenting things  8)
Then you need to see a doctor immediately.


;)
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2013, 01:36:29 am »
FYI, just in for 0.921:

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* Regen rework, due to the previous model being too difficult to really represent in the UI:
** Instead of a 5-number "regen window" that slides every time you take a hit or get a regen pulse, your exo now just remembers damage taken up to your Regen stat's value.
** Instead of each turn healing your full regen stat's value against anything in that 5-number window, now each turn it heals 1/5th of your regen stat each turn, until the "remembered damage" hits zero.
** Your exo healthbars on the left sidebar in a mission now show a white extension for any part of that exo's shields that has been lost but will regen if you don't take any more damage (and amended the tooltip for those buttons with the actual amount of damage that would regen, if > 0).
** Note: no rebalancing of the actual Regen values has happened with this.  It's probably necessary, but it'd be better to let y'all play with it and see how it feels to see what direction and how far the numbers need to go first.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2013, 01:45:31 am »
hmmm... IF I'm reading this and understanding it right, regen values will have to be dramatically higher on parts for this to be of any use.

I know in my current game, I've got decent regen on a couple of Exos, but the new implementation will mean it's best simply discarding those parts entirely, and replacing them with..... er..... more explosions.  Damage reduction is still worthless, or I'd use that.

EDIT:  Or, at least, I think it's worthless;  I havent gotten any damage-reduction parts with the new patch yet.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 01:55:16 am by Misery »

Offline khadgar

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2013, 05:42:06 am »
That sounds really neat, looking forward to seeing how it plays out. As long as the total health (current health plus regen potential) only ever decrease, it should be visually clear to see what it going on (I hope). From what was described, it should work this way.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2013, 11:34:18 am »
hmmm... IF I'm reading this and understanding it right, regen values will have to be dramatically higher on parts for this to be of any use.

I know in my current game, I've got decent regen on a couple of Exos, but the new implementation will mean it's best simply discarding those parts entirely
I guess it's possible.  I thought the feedback I was getting was that the values would need to go _down_ under Tridus's model, so I didn't think I needed to do anything for the result to be useful.

Do you have a suggestion for the new range of regen values?  Given the current range of 5 to 110.


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Damage reduction is still worthless, or I'd use that.

EDIT:  Or, at least, I think it's worthless;  I havent gotten any damage-reduction parts with the new patch yet.
Given its current range of 3 to 50, what would it need to be to be useful to you?

Granted, it may be that what it needs to be useful on Expert would be dominating on Normal, but one problem at a time :)
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Offline Tridus

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2013, 12:02:40 pm »
Granted, it may be that what it needs to be useful on Expert would be dominating on Normal, but one problem at a time :)

Pretty sure this is the real problem. The numbers as they are now work great on lower difficulties, but as enemy damage goes up and exo shields go down dramatically on higher ones, the number of hits you can survive shrinks. Regen doesn't work if you don't survive the turn, and damage reduction of 30 doesn't matter if you're being shot for 900.

This wouldn't be the first game with that problem. World of Warcraft had an entire raid tier where avoidance tanking flat out didn't work because any hit that did land was a one-shot kill. So the only way to do it was to stack +armor and +health so that when the hit did come you'd survive it.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2013, 12:29:30 pm »

Pretty sure this is the real problem. The numbers as they are now work great on lower difficulties, but as enemy damage goes up and exo shields go down dramatically on higher ones, the number of hits you can survive shrinks. Regen doesn't work if you don't survive the turn, and damage reduction of 30 doesn't matter if you're being shot for 900.

This. It is the result of the player uses static equipment while difficulty dynamically alters enemy equipment while using an arithmetic model.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2013, 01:25:40 pm »

Pretty sure this is the real problem. The numbers as they are now work great on lower difficulties, but as enemy damage goes up and exo shields go down dramatically on higher ones, the number of hits you can survive shrinks. Regen doesn't work if you don't survive the turn, and damage reduction of 30 doesn't matter if you're being shot for 900.

This. It is the result of the player uses static equipment while difficulty dynamically alters enemy equipment while using an arithmetic model.
Fair enough.  Suggestions?
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Offline Teal_Blue

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2013, 01:58:30 pm »

Pretty sure this is the real problem. The numbers as they are now work great on lower difficulties, but as enemy damage goes up and exo shields go down dramatically on higher ones, the number of hits you can survive shrinks. Regen doesn't work if you don't survive the turn, and damage reduction of 30 doesn't matter if you're being shot for 900.

This. It is the result of the player uses static equipment while difficulty dynamically alters enemy equipment while using an arithmetic model.
Fair enough.  Suggestions?



This should make more sense than my virus numbers in the other thread...  :)
So...If the system is dynamic (regarding all other elements chemical_art mentioned), then make the regen values dynamic as well.   :)

If the range is 5 - 110, then can we breakout xx value for each difficulty level and xx+ for each bot level?
I am sure Keith is much better with numbers than i am, so i will try not to embarrass myself, and simply say
does this sound workable?

-Teal

« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 02:02:05 pm by Teal_Blue »

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2013, 02:01:59 pm »
Unfortunately none that are simple.

Player.also dynamically increases in power to a lessee extent.
Either have enemies not scale.
Alter the model of armor. Either a hybrid.that also includes percentages or a separate one for percents used if choose at game start or something else entirely.

Sadly none are simple.
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Offline Teal_Blue

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2013, 02:08:16 pm »
Quick question... if shielding is the armor? Then instead of hard numbers for shields, like +27, or +12, or whatever... what if we had +3%, or +8%... etc... so each Exo could key their shield values off something like the difficulty level, or the exo level, or the average of the bot levels in the missions for the number of mission we are on (are we on the 39th day, with only 11 days left to go before the final battle?)

Does this sound like it could work, and be a reasonable range?

-Teal

 

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2013, 04:44:56 pm »
Regen definitely doesn't look quite right, yet. My exo's health bar seems to go up and down while regenerating. Not exactly sure what's going on. The green bar should always fill in the white bar -- the green bar shouldn't push the white bar further up and then the white bar disappear. Hard to explain, but needs a bit of tweaking. The pure aesthetic of the bar is fine, though.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 04:46:46 pm by Pepisolo »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #59 on: September 25, 2013, 05:34:43 pm »
Regen definitely doesn't look quite right, yet. My exo's health bar seems to go up and down while regenerating. Not exactly sure what's going on. The green bar should always fill in the white bar -- the green bar shouldn't push the white bar further up and then the white bar disappear. Hard to explain, but needs a bit of tweaking. The pure aesthetic of the bar is fine, though.
Well, then what should it do in a case where you've taken 10 damage out of a total of 1000 health, and will regen all of it next turn?  If the regen slice doesn't displace a health slice it won't show a regen slice at all.
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