Author Topic: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive  (Read 12409 times)

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2013, 09:49:18 AM »


I think Khadgar's suggestion about fighting game style health bars would work great to represent health that can be regenerated if no more hits are taken. Perhaps show how much health can be regained in 1 turn as well as your potential health after the 5 turns, but really that should be all that needs to be represented, right?

I think visually this would be good to help with the UI in showing how healing is done. On the first hit, the full value of regen would show, greater hits will show the bar alter accordingly.

Yeah, I can't really think of any better way to visually represent this. Seems to tick all the boxes.

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2013, 10:28:55 AM »
Thinking about it. This fighting game mechanic energy bar should really do a good job of getting over to the player how the mechanic works. So, honing in on the original idea, namely working on the last hit until you are fully healed.

This is good, but would this mean it is possible to take a hit, switch exo, take a hit, switch exo, and then after the battle is complete stand around healing all your exos up in turn? Presumably...

Here's a question then, would Tridus' solution solve this problem. Can anybody see flaws in Tridus' proposed solution? This coupled with the fighting game bar seems like it might be a neat solution to me, but hey I'm not great with numbers.

Oh, an active power would be nice, but that could really come in the future as a different ability or a one time consumable (if those are introduced).

Offline Misery

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2013, 10:38:19 AM »
It seems like more micro, and more complexity, in an attempt to reduce complexity.
More micro, sure. 

More complexity?  Compared to the current system with the regen window?  Honestly I think a heal spell is _way_ simpler than the current model.

And fwiw, as Misery said, this isn't specifically an attempt to reduce complexity.  Rather, I want the interface to give the player correct and adequate information about whatever mechanic we go with.  Personally, I think doing that with the current mechanic would involve too much info (it would basically need to just directly show you the 5 numbers in the regen window, with something like 4 or 5 sentences of explanation in a tooltip).  On the other hand "heals up to X damage from the last hit you took" is just about all the info this other one would need.

I think Khadgar's suggestion about fighting game style health bars would work great to represent health that can be regenerated if no more hits are taken. Perhaps show how much health can be regained in 1 turn as well as your potential health after the 5 turns, but really that should be all that needs to be represented, right?


One problem with the fighting game bar idea:   There's no guarantee that the player will understand what they're looking at.   Hell, I've met fighting game fans, who play such games, yet still dont actually know how the damage works and what exactly the bar is representing.   Doesnt help that not all such games even use that kind of system. And that's for people that actually play those.

It's one of those things that's often taken as a given by many gamers, like "How could anyone NOT know what this means?" despite the very high chance of many actually indeed not knowing what it means.  It's exactly the type of UI problem that needs to be avoided here, particularly since mistakes related to regen/healing/shield values or whatever can pretty much end your mission in this game, and that happening because a part of the interface is funky would suck, for whoever is playing it.  Roguelikes, in particular, generally do not use this kind of display for representing anything at all, which just worsens it.   Alot of fans of this sort of game arent going to be the sort that'd play fighting games and have seen this, but instead will most likely be the sort that already plays roguelikes, or strategy games, or RPGs of multiple possible types, and so on.


Offline Tridus

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2013, 10:46:37 AM »
Thinking about it. This fighting game mechanic energy bar should really do a good job of getting over to the player how the mechanic works. So, honing in on the original idea, namely working on the last hit until you are fully healed.

This is good, but would this mean it is possible to take a hit, switch exo, take a hit, switch exo, and then after the battle is complete stand around healing all your exos up in turn? Presumably...

Switching exos takes a turn in itself, so if you're getting shot (and will get shot again), switching right then is usually not the best move. Better to stealth, escape, and switch from behind something.

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2013, 10:46:54 AM »
Quote
One problem with the fighting game bar idea:   There's no guarantee that the player will understand what they're looking at.   Hell, I've met fighting game fans, who play such games, yet still dont actually know how the damage works and what exactly the bar is representing.   Doesnt help that not all such games even use that kind of system. And that's for people that actually play those.

It's one of those things that's often taken as a given by many gamers, like "How could anyone NOT know what this means?" despite the very high chance of many actually indeed not knowing what it means.  It's exactly the type of UI problem that needs to be avoided here, particularly since mistakes related to regen/healing/shield values or whatever can pretty much end your mission in this game, and that happening because a part of the interface is funky would suck, for whoever is playing it.  Roguelikes, in particular, generally do not use this kind of display for representing anything at all, which just worsens it.   Alot of fans of this sort of game arent going to be the sort that'd play fighting games and have seen this, but instead will most likely be the sort that already plays roguelikes, or strategy games, or RPGs of multiple possible types, and so on.

Phew. This is a tough one. I guess it just depends on how obvious and intuitive you want to make things, then. The absolute simplest thing that everybody would understand and that works is simply having an active ability with a limited resource pool (exactly like stealth) that regenerates a certain portion of health per turn. Use it after a tough battle and if the area is clear no need to wait around. Use it before a tough battle to increase tankiness. Use it mid battle if you're worried about being one shotted. It's tactical, it mirrors the current behaviour of the stealth mechanic, and it works.

I am personally interested in this fighting game bar mechanic, but then it's nothing new to me. To others, as you say, maybe it would leave them confused as to how it works.

Quote
Switching exos takes a turn in itself, so if you're getting shot (and will get shot again), switching right then is usually not the best move. Better to stealth, escape, and switch from behind something.

Ah, yes. Of course. Thanks.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 10:50:06 AM by Pepisolo »

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2013, 10:58:32 AM »
It seems like more micro, and more complexity, in an attempt to reduce complexity.
More micro, sure. 

More complexity?  Compared to the current system with the regen window?  Honestly I think a heal spell is _way_ simpler than the current model.

And fwiw, as Misery said, this isn't specifically an attempt to reduce complexity.  Rather, I want the interface to give the player correct and adequate information about whatever mechanic we go with.  Personally, I think doing that with the current mechanic would involve too much info (it would basically need to just directly show you the 5 numbers in the regen window, with something like 4 or 5 sentences of explanation in a tooltip).  On the other hand "heals up to X damage from the last hit you took" is just about all the info this other one would need.

I think Khadgar's suggestion about fighting game style health bars would work great to represent health that can be regenerated if no more hits are taken. Perhaps show how much health can be regained in 1 turn as well as your potential health after the 5 turns, but really that should be all that needs to be represented, right?


There's no guarantee that the player will understand what they're looking at. 

Then explain it, like one is already explaining stealth, etc?
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Offline Tridus

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2013, 11:09:53 AM »
Quote
One problem with the fighting game bar idea:   There's no guarantee that the player will understand what they're looking at.   Hell, I've met fighting game fans, who play such games, yet still dont actually know how the damage works and what exactly the bar is representing.   Doesnt help that not all such games even use that kind of system. And that's for people that actually play those.

It's one of those things that's often taken as a given by many gamers, like "How could anyone NOT know what this means?" despite the very high chance of many actually indeed not knowing what it means.  It's exactly the type of UI problem that needs to be avoided here, particularly since mistakes related to regen/healing/shield values or whatever can pretty much end your mission in this game, and that happening because a part of the interface is funky would suck, for whoever is playing it.  Roguelikes, in particular, generally do not use this kind of display for representing anything at all, which just worsens it.   Alot of fans of this sort of game arent going to be the sort that'd play fighting games and have seen this, but instead will most likely be the sort that already plays roguelikes, or strategy games, or RPGs of multiple possible types, and so on.

Phew. This is a tough one. I guess it just depends on how obvious and intuitive you want to make things, then. The absolute simplest thing that everybody would understand and that works is simply having an active ability with a limited resource pool (exactly like stealth) that regenerates a certain portion of health per turn. Use it after a tough battle and if the area is clear no need to wait around. Use it before a tough battle to increase tankiness. Use it mid battle if you're worried about being one shotted. It's tactical, it mirrors the current behaviour of the stealth mechanic, and it works.

I am personally interested in this fighting game bar mechanic, but then it's nothing new to me. To others, as you say, maybe it would leave them confused as to how it works.

I don't think the idea of "push this button to heal the damage you took in the last shot" is much better, both mechanically (not a fan personally), and in terms of understanding. You can't really use it while under fire since giving up a turn while being shot is usually a bad idea. People are going to use it later, and they'll wonder why when they got blasted for 300 two rounds ago did they only recover 15 from the healing button?

The fighting game bar isn't just in fighting games: Dragons Crown uses something similar for boss fights. You may have to explain it to people, but they already have to discover how viruses work, how the AoE spread patterns on guns that aren't obvious bursts work (like the shotgun and it's odd pattern), and other things. So I don't think it's going to be a big deal. If the mechanic itself is sound, we can probably find a way to convey it in the UI.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2013, 11:15:15 AM »
The fighting-game-like healthbar thing is theoretically possible, but honestly the computation of "how much would you regen?" is fairly complex.  It's not just the sum of all 5 window numbers, but something like

Min(regen,fifthNumber)
+ Min(regen*2,fourthNumber-Min(regen,fifthNumber))
+ Min(regen*3,thirdNumber-Min(regen*2,fourthNumber-Min(regen,fifthNumber)))
+ Min(regen*4,secondNumber- Min(regen*3,thirdNumber-Min(regen*2,fourthNumber-Min(regen,fifthNumber))))
+ Min(regen*5,firstNumber-Min(regen*4,secondNumber- Min(regen*3,thirdNumber-Min(regen*2,fourthNumber-Min(regen,fifthNumber)))))

And that's just the projection for if you don't take any hits over your next 5 actions.  Though suppose no one's really asking for it to show a visual prediction of that (yet ;) ).

Anyway, perhaps I can give that a try; the graphical part could be a bit tricky as our current way of drawing the healthbars really doesn't lend itself to granular length or different colors or whatever, but we'll see :)

On the other hand, it just feels like if the computation is that complex, why aren't we doing something that's simpler for everyone to understand?  In the end the current math still feels like the simplest way to have regen per se, but just because it's the best we can do doesn't mean it's good enough :)  Hence trying to find some kind of alternate approach.  Anyway.
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Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2013, 11:19:06 AM »
Quote

I don't think the idea of "push this button to heal the damage you took in the last shot" is much better, both mechanically (not a fan personally), and in terms of understanding. You can't really use it while under fire since giving up a turn while being shot is usually a bad idea. People are going to use it later, and they'll wonder why when they got blasted for 300 two rounds ago did they only recover 15 from the healing button?

The fighting game bar isn't just in fighting games: Dragons Crown uses something similar for boss fights. You may have to explain it to people, but they already have to discover how viruses work, how the AoE spread patterns on guns that aren't obvious bursts work (like the shotgun and it's odd pattern), and other things. So I don't think it's going to be a big deal. If the mechanic itself is sound, we can probably find a way to convey it in the UI.

To be honest at this point in time, your idea (or some variant of) + fighting game bar mechanic is what I'd go for. I do like active regen, but that could easily implemented as a different skill in the future. Basically I'm down with last hit regen over a number of turns visualized as a fighting game bar if it could be implemented nicely. I'm pretty sure an active skill would work too, but I think the alternative is better and more interesting.

Quote
On the other hand, it just feels like if the computation is that complex, why aren't we doing something that's simpler for everyone to understand?  In the end the current math still feels like the simplest way to have regen per se, but just because it's the best we can do doesn't mean it's good enough :)  Hence trying to find some kind of alternate approach.  Anyway.

This seems like a tough one to say the least...
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 11:22:40 AM by Pepisolo »

Offline Tridus

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2013, 11:25:10 AM »
The fighting-game-like healthbar thing is theoretically possible, but honestly the computation of "how much would you regen?" is fairly complex.  It's not just the sum of all 5 window numbers, but something like

Min(regen,fifthNumber)
+ Min(regen*2,fourthNumber-Min(regen,fifthNumber))
+ Min(regen*3,thirdNumber-Min(regen*2,fourthNumber-Min(regen,fifthNumber)))
+ Min(regen*4,secondNumber- Min(regen*3,thirdNumber-Min(regen*2,fourthNumber-Min(regen,fifthNumber))))
+ Min(regen*5,firstNumber-Min(regen*4,secondNumber- Min(regen*3,thirdNumber-Min(regen*2,fourthNumber-Min(regen,fifthNumber)))))

And that's just the projection for if you don't take any hits over your next 5 actions.  Though suppose no one's really asking for it to show a visual prediction of that (yet ;) ).

Anyway, perhaps I can give that a try; the graphical part could be a bit tricky as our current way of drawing the healthbars really doesn't lend itself to granular length or different colors or whatever, but we'll see :)

On the other hand, it just feels like if the computation is that complex, why aren't we doing something that's simpler for everyone to understand?  In the end the current math still feels like the simplest way to have regen per se, but just because it's the best we can do doesn't mean it's good enough :)  Hence trying to find some kind of alternate approach.  Anyway.

Yes, the current computation is complex. That's why I suggested a new one. :) The math on that is considerably simpler, since it's just a number of how much damage you've taken that can be regenerated. Taking damage makes the number go up until it maxes out (any extra damage is permanent0, regenerating damage makes the number go down (until 0).

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2013, 11:38:23 AM »
Yes, the current computation is complex. That's why I suggested a new one. :)
Fair enough ;)

To address it from your earlier post:

Quote
The regen value of your exo is the maximum amount of damage you can successfully regenerate at once. The actual damage up to that limit is regenerated at 20% per turn, if you're not taking damage. What we do is track the damage remaining to be regenerated, and if that number goes over the limit, it's "gone" and can't be regenerated. Here's an example:

Exo A has a regen score of 100.
1. It gets shot for 10 damage, and is not shot again. It regenerates 2 per turn for the next 5 turns.
2. It gets shot for 10 damage, not shot on the next turn (regenerates 2), then shot for 50. The damage to regenerate is 58, lower then 100, so it'll still regenerate it all.
3. It gets shot for 50 in one round, then 75 in the next round. The total damage in the "could regen" pool is 125, which is over 100. So it becomes 100 and gets 20 back a turn, the other 25 is permanent.
4. If two turns into its regeneration from #3 it gets shot for another 100, the math is 60 remaining + 100 more = 140. So the regen pool goes back to 100, and 40 more damage is permanent. It gets 20 a turn for 5 turns again.

Why, in example 1, does it not regenerate all 10 in one go?  Or regen 2 on the first turn, and then 1 on every turn after that (by taking 20% of what's left)?  In other words, it makes sense to me that it would regenerate 20% of the two easily known numbers: your total regen, or the total damage left to regen.  Presumably the former, as the latter would lead to long drawn-out regen.

But having the 20% be based off "total damage you've taken since the last time your regennable damage hit zero, but no more than your regen rating"... well, I'd rather not :)

Put more simply: is there a compelling reason to have it not always have the regen "rate" be 20% of your regen?
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Offline Tridus

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2013, 11:50:45 AM »
But having the 20% be based off "total damage you've taken since the last time your regennable damage hit zero, but no more than your regen rating"... well, I'd rather not :)

Put more simply: is there a compelling reason to have it not always have the regen "rate" be 20% of your regen?

Not really, no. :)  That was just what I could come up with on a first attempt at the idea.

So changing that, the examples look like this:

Exo A has a regen score of 100.
1. It gets shot for 10 damage, and is not shot again. It regenerates 10 in one turn and is fully healed.
2. It gets shot for 10 damage, not shot on the next turn (regenerates 10), then shot for 50. For the next three turns it regenerates 20, 20, 10.
3. It gets shot for 50 in one round, then 75 in the next round. The total damage in the "could regen" pool is 125, which is over 100. So it becomes 100 and gets 20 back a turn, the other 25 is permanent.
4. If two turns into its regeneration from #3 it gets shot for another 100, the math is 60 remaining + 100 more = 140. So the regen pool goes back to 100, and 40 more damage is permanent. It gets 20 a turn for 5 turns again.


(Regen numbers themselves would likely need to come down a tad in this model as there's no longer any shot or turn limits, just a damage soak amount, but I think they're high right now anyway.)

Offline orzelek

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2013, 03:45:49 PM »
For me the repair ability variant would be most straightforward.

Remove the turn limits and leave it at limited amount of uses with certain amount per use.
Repair amount based on your +max shields seems reasonable. Number of charges would need to be present on items as a bonus.

You could then spec your bot 3 ways:
- put up a lot of DR (no + max shields so your repairs will be tiny)
- put up a lot of max shields (you will get hit for more but can repair those hits)
- mix up both of above and try to find a balance between how much you can repair during mission vs damage reduction

Offline Teal_Blue

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2013, 04:00:39 PM »
I don't know, it seems we all have our pet theories and we don't want to budge for someone else's idea.

This is just a thought, but what if we leave the regen mechanic exactly as it is now and we use the healthbar we have on the exo in the sidebar and simply have the game calculate the damage and the regen and then have the bar on the exo adjust accordingly?

So no new toolbars.
No new mechanics.
No new calculations, or spread over time, or all at once, or substitute this for that or any of that.

Just keep what we have and adjust the healthbar we have accordingly. Which might be what is happening right now anyway.  :)

Just an opinion,

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Offline Winge

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Re: Reworking Regen to be more intuitive
« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2013, 06:05:05 PM »
One more comment that I feel deserves note:  it is possible right now to 'overload' the UI with commands.  Adding a heal command will either overlap with other commands, or force a UI change.  Not sure if that was brought up yet.

The update that Tridus and Keith were discussing seems reasonable enough to me.  Honestly, that's how I thought regen worked at first...
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