Could We Make A Rogue Mode... ?

[Pepisolo]

So, erm, back to what Keith was talking about:  I was thinking of a similar, less punishing method:
1.  Exo damage is only repaired by 10% each mission.
2.  If an Exo dies, it is unavailable for the next mission, but fully repaired afterwards.
3.  If the player runs out of Exos during a mission, it is a failure, their HQ loses an HP, and their Exos are fully repaired.

This is far too weak for me. I'd prefer Exo gets destroyed -- that's it. Although, I wouldn't mind a new mission type that grants a single random new exo upon completion.

[keith.lamothe]

So, erm, back to what Keith was talking about:  I was thinking of a similar, less punishing method:
1.  Exo damage is only repaired by 10% each mission.
2.  If an Exo dies, it is unavailable for the next mission, but fully repaired afterwards.
3.  If the player runs out of Exos during a mission, it is a failure, their HQ loses an HP, and their Exos are fully repaired.

I don't think that really gets at the desire, and is actually more complex.  But a separate one I have in mind is "ammo, health, stealth, etc do not recharge after winning a mission, only after you lose".  There's some complexity in how to handle the situation where your max ammo or whatever changes due to customization, but in the spirit of unkindness it could just leave your current where it is (unless the max is now lower, in which case it lowers it)

[keith.lamothe]

For the curious, here's the list of conducts I have for the potential expansion list:

- "Tunnel Vision": cannot switch exos (still auto-switches on death)

- "No Points In Subtlety": cannot stealth

- "Dead Is Dead": any exo that dies, dies permanently

- "Who Designed This Circuit?": triple power consumption of everything

- "On Your Toes": if you take more than 5 seconds to execute an action, the game picks "wait" for you

- "AWOL Quartermaster": lost health, ammo, stealth, etc carries over from one mission to the next, until a mission is lost (then they refill)

- "Picky Scavenger": automatically sells any item green or lower

- "Dead Reckoning": no sensor coverage outside line of sight (basically means no sensor stat at all, except for whistle or whatever)

- "Unionized Maintenance Crews": game auto-equips your exos after each mission (or store purchase) and you're not allowed to change any of it.

- "Trigger Happy Bots"  lets them get a free shot after moving if it brings them into range.

- "There's No Team In 'I'" You only get one exo.

Not sure if all those would happen or what.  But I think there's plenty of pain in there   And simply alternate playstyles.  Playing on Casual or Easy with "No Team in I", "Dead Is Dead", "On Your Toes", and "Unionized Maintenance Crews" would potentially be quite a romp

[Winge]

Sounds pretty fun.  AWOL Quartermaster is akin to what I was going for.  Out of curiosity, would that mean dead Exos stay dead until you lose a mission?

[keith.lamothe]

Sounds pretty fun.  AWOL Quartermaster is akin to what I was going for.  Out of curiosity, would that mean dead Exos stay dead until you lose a mission?

Probably, yes, otherwise it poses kind of an odd question at the end of each mission: do I kill off this exo to get its health refilled, or do I get the piece of loot from keeping it alive?

Though I imagine that one would interact strangely with Rey.  And others will do so with other commanders, too.

[AnOddRadish]

As a hardcore roguelike fan, I was just thinking about how much I would love an "Exo dies, tough beans." mode. Just an FYI, I had assumed that the game would include it, seeing as it was labeled roguelike. After futzing around with hard for a few mins, I realized that I hated being able to reload saves, (gonna fess up here, I'm a super compulsive cheater. If it's easier to cheat and still get the achievement/goal that I want, that's what I do, and I hate every minute of it.) and deleted my saves and started an ironman mode. Breezing through hard/Ironman ATM, but for the record I for one would LOVE a hardcore mode. As for whether it should be implemented, I think with the right advertising you could draw in a lot of the nethack/ADOM/Dwarf Fortress/TOME players, as long as the game was balanced around it, and it wasn't just thrown in as an extra mode as a lot of people have suggested. Whether that would be a wise use of time is up to the people with the people who have that time.

[BobTheJanitor]

People like hardcore permadeath roguelikes. As anecdotal evidence, I present Dungeons of Dredmor. That game took most of the traditional bits of the roguelike genre and made them casual and accessible (along with friendly graphics) and rocketed up the Steam bestseller list and sat there for quite a while. It did have the option, though, of playing with permadeath on or off. But I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that having permadeath in there was one of the things that made it so popular for so long, instead of just another forgotten indie title gathering dust in Steam's basement.

[chemical_art]

I don't know what you are driving at. Was the game successful because it made the genre casual and accessible and unique, or because it followed the most hardcore and common aspect of the genre? Which of these aspects made the game not another forgotten indie title gathering dust?

[nas1m]

So, erm, back to what Keith was talking about:  I was thinking of a similar, less punishing method:
1.  Exo damage is only repaired by 10% each mission.
2.  If an Exo dies, it is unavailable for the next mission, but fully repaired afterwards.
3.  If the player runs out of Exos during a mission, it is a failure, their HQ loses an HP, and their Exos are fully repaired.

This is far too weak for me. I'd prefer Exo gets destroyed -- that's it. Although, I wouldn't mind a new mission type that grants a single random new exo upon completion.

This sounds like the optimal solution to me. Seconded.

Changing salvage missions to allow recovery of a replacement exo definitely sounds like a good idea to me - especially to prevent mid/late campaign failure simply because the wrong exo has been lost.

Having them provide a *random* exo could be interesting, but also has the potential of being very frustrating (e.g. if only science exos get dropped when you are looking for an assault exo replacement). Having your team composition change midgame is definitely interesting, though!

A compromise could be to let a given salvage mission state what kind of exo it will provide on mission success *and* tweaking mapgen so that each type is available at least once. That would allow for one possibility to restore the original team composition, while enforcing a different playstyle in case the replacement exo is lost again (which would be a good thing, imho).

[nas1m]

For the curious, here's the list of conducts I have for the potential expansion list:

- "Tunnel Vision": cannot switch exos (still auto-switches on death)

- "No Points In Subtlety": cannot stealth

- "Dead Is Dead": any exo that dies, dies permanently

- "Who Designed This Circuit?": triple power consumption of everything

- "On Your Toes": if you take more than 5 seconds to execute an action, the game picks "wait" for you

- "AWOL Quartermaster": lost health, ammo, stealth, etc carries over from one mission to the next, until a mission is lost (then they refill)

- "Picky Scavenger": automatically sells any item green or lower

- "Dead Reckoning": no sensor coverage outside line of sight (basically means no sensor stat at all, except for whistle or whatever)

- "Unionized Maintenance Crews": game auto-equips your exos after each mission (or store purchase) and you're not allowed to change any of it.

- "Trigger Happy Bots"  lets them get a free shot after moving if it brings them into range.

- "There's No Team In 'I'" You only get one exo.

Not sure if all those would happen or what.  But I think there's plenty of pain in there   And simply alternate playstyles.  Playing on Casual or Easy with "No Team in I", "Dead Is Dead", "On Your Toes", and "Unionized Maintenance Crews" would potentially be quite a romp

Cool stuff! Those should keep the game fresh for a *long* time! Really looking forward to all of them !

[FrostyThePyro]

For the curious, here's the list of conducts I have for the potential expansion list:

- "Tunnel Vision": cannot switch exos (still auto-switches on death)

- "No Points In Subtlety": cannot stealth

- "Dead Is Dead": any exo that dies, dies permanently

- "Who Designed This Circuit?": triple power consumption of everything

- "On Your Toes": if you take more than 5 seconds to execute an action, the game picks "wait" for you

- "AWOL Quartermaster": lost health, ammo, stealth, etc carries over from one mission to the next, until a mission is lost (then they refill)

- "Picky Scavenger": automatically sells any item green or lower

- "Dead Reckoning": no sensor coverage outside line of sight (basically means no sensor stat at all, except for whistle or whatever)

- "Unionized Maintenance Crews": game auto-equips your exos after each mission (or store purchase) and you're not allowed to change any of it.

- "Trigger Happy Bots"  lets them get a free shot after moving if it brings them into range.

- "There's No Team In 'I'" You only get one exo.

Not sure if all those would happen or what.  But I think there's plenty of pain in there   And simply alternate playstyles.  Playing on Casual or Easy with "No Team in I", "Dead Is Dead", "On Your Toes", and "Unionized Maintenance Crews" would potentially be quite a romp

as a note if a rouge mode (or dead is dead) was done, it would also need to deactivate certain terminal hacks, namely terminal explodes and cover explodes.  Those two almost universaly kill the exo hacking it, and with terminals being unknown untill hacked thats a bit much.

And here is an idea for another one

"Loud Thrusters"  bots within x range of an activated bot are activated. 

[keith.lamothe]

as a note if a rouge mode (or dead is dead) was done, it would also need to deactivate certain terminal hacks, namely terminal explodes and cover explodes.  Those two almost universaly kill the exo hacking it, and with terminals being unknown untill hacked thats a bit much.

Do the unknown-potions implementations in roguelikes never have a kills-player potion?

[mrhanman]

as a note if a rouge mode (or dead is dead) was done, it would also need to deactivate certain terminal hacks, namely terminal explodes and cover explodes.  Those two almost universaly kill the exo hacking it, and with terminals being unknown untill hacked thats a bit much.

Do the unknown-potions implementations in roguelikes never have a kills-player potion?

It seems like in Brogue I've imbibed a potion or two that set me on fire, or somesuch.  Death quickly followed.

[Penumbra]

It seems like in Brogue I've imbibed a potion or two that set me on fire, or somesuch.  Death quickly followed.

In Brogue (and others) the bad potions aren't instant death, usually. The fire potion you mentioned, if still a possibility, should be drunk near water so that you can put yourself out. Since the terminals can't move, all we can do is choose when we use them, not where. I can't think of a mechanic that would allow you to be "prepared" other than, hmm... virus'ed shieldbots?

[mrhanman]

You also have the option to throw the potion at something, rather than test it on yourself.  But what fun is that?