Author Topic: Could We Make A Rogue Mode... ?  (Read 5424 times)

Offline ScrObot

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Re: Could We Make A Rogue Mode... ?
« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2013, 01:02:14 PM »
For the curious, here's the list of conducts I have for the potential expansion list:

One more to echo some previous suggestions:

In conjunction with the "if the exo dies, it's gone forever" mode ("Dead is Dead"), a new "Big Garage" or something modifier that randomly picks 2 exos (not of the type of any in your selected party) that will take the place of any killed exos. This would effectively give you a pool of 6 exos, though you still only have 4 out at a time.

Offline AnOddRadish

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Re: Could We Make A Rogue Mode... ?
« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2013, 02:11:06 PM »

In Nethack/Slash'em/ADoM/DFadventure, there is no instakill player potion/scroll afaik. It would make players too reluctant to try to ID anything under any circumstances. I second the notion that in hardcore, there should be no explodes terminal/kills exo (that one made me VERY upset to find  :'( ), but I see no issue with explodes cover, because it's so easy to deal with.

Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: Could We Make A Rogue Mode... ?
« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2013, 08:24:28 PM »
You guys know you can just hack any potentially explodey terminals with a ninja and escape unharmed, right? Unless you don't have a ninja, in which case I feel bad for you, son. I got 4 exos and a ninja is one.  8)

Offline AnOddRadish

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Re: Could We Make A Rogue Mode... ?
« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2013, 08:43:54 PM »
Does that work for "kill exo"? I thought ninja just avoided splash damage.

Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: Could We Make A Rogue Mode... ?
« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2013, 08:48:09 PM »
Does that work for "kill exo"? I thought ninja just avoided splash damage.

Nope! So that one probably would need to be changed to be more fair. Maybe a time bomb or something. Instead of instant death, you get X turns before that exo dies. So you could at least just put it in storage and not get it back out or something.

And yeah, roguelike games usually do have potentially bad potions, but I don't think I know of any that are just 'potion of you die instantly'. Poison, bursting into flame, freezing, acid, sure. Cursed items as well (an area that BD hasn't explored yet... oops there was a virus in that part, and now you can't uninstall it!). But they were always potentially escapable bad things. Sure, you may not be likely to escape it unless you were standing next to water with a heal potion in your other hand, but there was no always-die potion that I can think of.

Offline Teal_Blue

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Re: Could We Make A Rogue Mode... ?
« Reply #50 on: October 14, 2013, 09:39:00 PM »
as a note if a rouge mode (or dead is dead) was done, it would also need to deactivate certain terminal hacks, namely terminal explodes and cover explodes.  Those two almost universaly kill the exo hacking it, and with terminals being unknown untill hacked thats a bit much.
Do the unknown-potions implementations in roguelikes never have a kills-player potion?


I believe they do have a kill player effect on occasion. Which is the whole point of course for permadeath in roguelikes.  :)  at least the traditional ones. 

-Teal

p.s.  actually as i am a newbie at roguelikes i take that back. I 'assumed' that permadeath was a part of potions that insta-killed. Part of the danger actually, take a risk and survive, or take a risk and have to lose and have to start over. But with BD that would be lose the exo in question and go on. I still don't mind such a mechanic. I think it would add quite a bit of spice to getting through an entire game still alive, much less the final battle, haha.  :)



« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 09:46:22 PM by Teal_Blue »

Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: Could We Make A Rogue Mode... ?
« Reply #51 on: October 14, 2013, 11:03:11 PM »
My roguelike experience is admittedly rather slap-dash, but from what I've gleaned from some play here and there, you're not likely to run into any all-or-nothing choices. A standard trope of the genre is that you don't know what anything does until you test it. That swirling green potion could be a full heal, or it could be poison. Drinking it and finding out it's poison is usually pretty inconvenient, but it usually doesn't insta-kill you. If it is going to insta-kill you, then there is going to be some other option: a merchant who identifies things for you at a price, or you can try throwing the bottle at enemies to see what happens, or you can feed it to your dog first (sorry rover!) or whatever. But never do you get a choice of 'do this and die, or don't do it and you have no other game mechanic to ever find out what it does'. That's not fun gameplay, that's just flipping a coin and deleting your game if it comes up heads.

Offline doctorfrog

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Re: Could We Make A Rogue Mode... ?
« Reply #52 on: October 15, 2013, 08:01:05 PM »
My roguelike experience is admittedly rather slap-dash, but from what I've gleaned from some play here and there, you're not likely to run into any all-or-nothing choices. A standard trope of the genre is that you don't know what anything does until you test it. That swirling green potion could be a full heal, or it could be poison. Drinking it and finding out it's poison is usually pretty inconvenient, but it usually doesn't insta-kill you. If it is going to insta-kill you, then there is going to be some other option: a merchant who identifies things for you at a price, or you can try throwing the bottle at enemies to see what happens, or you can feed it to your dog first (sorry rover!) or whatever. But never do you get a choice of 'do this and die, or don't do it and you have no other game mechanic to ever find out what it does'. That's not fun gameplay, that's just flipping a coin and deleting your game if it comes up heads.

Given how old-school roguelikes have such staying power, it's easy to conflate their effects with modern ones.

Nethack, for example, has dozens of ways to simply execute you if you don't know precisely what to do. A good example of that is "stoning." (http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Stoning) Dealing with stoning is a guaranteed death unless you have special knowledge that the game only reluctantly gives up.

Modern roguelikes, if they want any sort of mindshare, don't do this. I'm not saying that the hilarious and nigh-on unpredictable collision of unfortunate events doesn't happen, because boy howdy, this is also a major requirement for a good roguelike. It's just that, when it does so happen that you guzzle a Potion of Horrible Things, and you meet your end shortly thereafter, you can just about always blame yourself for it, because you have been given enough information to know better, or, as you slap yourself on the forehead, you realize exactly what inventory in your possession would have let you avoid it.

edit: for the record, I would be for an Iron Rogue setting.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 08:07:41 PM by doctorfrog »

Offline Teal_Blue

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Re: Could We Make A Rogue Mode... ?
« Reply #53 on: October 15, 2013, 08:36:12 PM »
Ah... well, then if not a insta-kill option on the terminals, then perhaps we can arrive at a kill slowly mechanic or something, where your exo will only last say, 5 or 10 minutes and see if we can make it until the end of the mission before then? And have the terminal effect wear off at the end to the mission?

-Teal