Author Topic: Too much money, and still stuck  (Read 1755 times)

Offline drozzy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Too much money, and still stuck
« on: May 11, 2013, 06:10:52 pm »
Me and my friend are playing a coop, on difficulty 6.
I invest in economics, and have built economic  level III and II stations on every planet we captures.
We have about 12-16 planets, and now our income is so high that my resources roll over 1mil and fill up his income completely.

However, we are still stuck - because we can't capture any more planets because I ran out of defence turrets to put on our existing ones. We can't research anymore - because he spent all his research on ships, while I spent it on econ/tur.
The problem is that AI is constantly bugging our existing planets with raids (our AI progress is now 400). And I have hard time keeping up with defences - always having my friend return from battle to help defend.

One strategy we are considering is just gunning for the home planet (via scouting etc..).
Are we playing on a way too easy difficulty, or is this normal?

thanks!

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Too much money, and still stuck
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2013, 06:18:29 pm »
If you're capping out on resources, have you built all the ships from the mercenary space dock?  They're incredibly expensive but a full merc force (or even just a full set of merc fighters) could really help you take out the AI HW.

If you're having defensive problems, perhaps you could post a save and a veteran around here could give you some scenario-specific pointers :)

AIP 400 is pretty high, though on Diff 6 it still shouldn't be too bad if you use what's available to you.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline chemical_art

  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Fabulous
Re: Too much money, and still stuck
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2013, 06:31:33 pm »
For what.i consider core attacks or.defense merc fighters and enclaves give.A punch for.a.key.time.

On defense forts.burn your wallet while.thwy burn the enemy
Life is short. Have fun.

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Too much money, and still stuck
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2013, 07:59:18 pm »
For what.i consider core attacks or.defense merc fighters and enclaves give.A punch for.a.key.time.

On defense forts.burn your wallet while.thwy burn the enemy
Chem, how much have you drunk tonight?
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline chemical_art

  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Fabulous
Re: Too much money, and still stuck
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2013, 08:57:30 pm »
My phone is a force of.its own.
Life is short. Have fun.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Too much money, and still stuck
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2013, 10:33:57 pm »
I'd say just start taking as much of your army you can spare and still leave your "important" planets defensible and make continual "bum rushes" against the homeworlds. It's ok if some of your unimportant "edge worlds" get lost during the attack. If your force gets killed or you need to pull back to defend something important, then take the time to retake lost worlds.

Also, make sure all of your docks are on loop build, with everything in the queue at least once at at least one dock they can be built at. That way, you can always replace losses ASAP, and hopefully get some of that money below the cap some.

And finally, as mentioned, mercs (and Zenith trader "toys" if you have the trader enabled) also make a great "money sink", and provide a decent amount of power as well.

Offline Cyborg

  • Master Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,957
Re: Too much money, and still stuck
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2013, 10:45:43 pm »
Tips to burn money:

1) multiple space docks should constantly be building while you take a planet
2) mercenaries
3) warhead stockpile
4) beachheads
5) Zenith trader toys
6) fortresses

If you have maximum resources, you're doing it wrong. The only time that should happen is as a buffer to quickly rebuild after launching an attack on a difficult planet.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 10:47:45 pm by Cyborg »
Kahuna strategy guide:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13369.0.html

Suggestions, bugs? Don't be lazy, give back:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/

Planetcracker. Believe it.

The stigma of hunger. http://wayw.re/Vi12BK

Offline LordSloth

  • Sr. Member Mark III
  • ****
  • Posts: 430
Re: Too much money, and still stuck
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2013, 01:27:00 am »
I have been finding the game significantly more difficult lately (but that might be the AI's I'm up against). The AI harassing you... is that with waves or general threat? There is a galaxy filter for threat, I went out of my way to bind that to "t", and that's helped me predict those attacks much easier. If it's waves, have you been raiding warp gates? Has the AI been spawning warp gate guardians?

What is the map style?

If you feel you're -almost- capable of pushing forward, consider doing some knowledge hacking and perhaps unlocking an extra fleet ship or two.

Offline Kahuna

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,222
  • Kahuna Matata!
Re: Too much money, and still stuck
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2013, 02:38:52 am »
So you have too much resources, you're stuck and you don't have any more knowledge. Ok..
..oh what settings are you using for your current game?

I recommend you start a new game and next time unlock: (in no specific order)
Mark IIIs of both Harvesters
Mark II Plasma Siege and Heavy Bomber Starships
Area Minefields
1 or 2 Mark II Fleetships
Mark II Gravitational, Needler, Missile and Flak Turrets.
Mark I Hardened Force Fields

Setup your defenses like this. Turrets in front of the object you want to defend. Between the object and the hostile wormhole(s).

There are Flak, Lightning and Tractor Turrets under the Forcefield (not the one protecting the Command Station)
And as you can see there's 75 Area Minefields on that planet. They're right in front of the hostile wormhole.

Check this for "how to stop a wave in 3 seconds" http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,11937.msg128188.html#msg128188
I think I did a new record yesterday! A wave went from ~900 to ~70 in a couple of seconds.
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline Tridus

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,305
  • I'm going to do what I do best: lecture her!
Re: Too much money, and still stuck
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2013, 11:59:13 am »
This is one of the reasons I don't like investing in Economic Command Station III. They do give a lot of resources, but the cost in knowledge makes it hard to spend those resources. You also need more defenses per planet to sustain a solid defense because that station contributes nothing to your protection.

If you're at a border world or particularly a choke point, you should look at building Millitary or Logistics stations instead. Logistics ones slow down the enemy (and really speed up your fleets) to aid in defense. Millitary ones provide cloaking detection, and increase the offensive power of almost everything on the planet. A Millitary Command mk II provides a massive firepower boost to turrets, and a mk III doubles their strength. The Millitary stations also fire nifty shots that can push enemies away from the station, making protecting something easier. It's also worth noting that you don't have to defend every planet with turrets. Unlock the Mini Fortress and put those everywhere, since you can have two per planet. Focus your turrets on planets that have buildings to protect or are places the AI has to attack to get to you (choke points). You can force the AI to send it's normal attack waves at one planet by destroying warp gates on the other adjacent planets. Leave one warp gate up next to one of your planets and every wave will go to that planet, which is where you want to heavily defend. (They can still send cross planet attacks or border aggression attacks anywhere, but that strategy does significantly help.)

Personally I use the previous advice you were given: unlock Harvesters instead of Economic stations, if you need the resource boost. You can then use logistics stations on safe planets (to move your fleets around more quickly) and Millitary stations on threatened ones. It's too late to do that in this game of course, but it's something for future reference.

One idea for your current game if you're stuck is to knowledge raid some planets you don't intend to capture. Build a knowledge hacker building (on the econ tab, same column as the science labs) and send it along with your fleet to an AI system you don't intend to capture. You can steal knowledge that way, and use that to invest in some more tech for you to spend your resources on. The AI responds poorly to hacking and will fight back, but you should be able to do it twice before the counterattacks get really nasty.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 12:01:36 pm by Tridus »

Offline drozzy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Too much money, and still stuck
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2013, 12:24:48 pm »
Thank you all for advice!

Tridus, I liked your advice of building fortresses. The problem I have is I never know how many turrets or fortresses are "enough" to stop a wave. I might be putting 100 missile turrets on the planet and think it will do just fine - when the next wave of AI comes in and wipes them all out!
Is single fortress sufficient vs. 1k wave of ships?

Also, I did unlock harvesters. I unlocked basically everything - because I've been focusing on researching only econ stuff, while my friend researched ships only. So we effectively x2 our knowledge, kind of.

This is one of the reasons I don't like investing in Economic Command Station III. They do give a lot of resources, but the cost in knowledge makes it hard to spend those resources. You also need more defenses per planet to sustain a solid defense because that station contributes nothing to your protection.

If you're at a border world or particularly a choke point, you should look at building Millitary or Logistics stations instead. Logistics ones slow down the enemy (and really speed up your fleets) to aid in defense. Millitary ones provide cloaking detection, and increase the offensive power of almost everything on the planet. A Millitary Command mk II provides a massive firepower boost to turrets, and a mk III doubles their strength. The Millitary stations also fire nifty shots that can push enemies away from the station, making protecting something easier. It's also worth noting that you don't have to defend every planet with turrets. Unlock the Mini Fortress and put those everywhere, since you can have two per planet. Focus your turrets on planets that have buildings to protect or are places the AI has to attack to get to you (choke points). You can force the AI to send it's normal attack waves at one planet by destroying warp gates on the other adjacent planets. Leave one warp gate up next to one of your planets and every wave will go to that planet, which is where you want to heavily defend. (They can still send cross planet attacks or border aggression attacks anywhere, but that strategy does significantly help.)

Personally I use the previous advice you were given: unlock Harvesters instead of Economic stations, if you need the resource boost. You can then use logistics stations on safe planets (to move your fleets around more quickly) and Millitary stations on threatened ones. It's too late to do that in this game of course, but it's something for future reference.

One idea for your current game if you're stuck is to knowledge raid some planets you don't intend to capture. Build a knowledge hacker building (on the econ tab, same column as the science labs) and send it along with your fleet to an AI system you don't intend to capture. You can steal knowledge that way, and use that to invest in some more tech for you to spend your resources on. The AI responds poorly to hacking and will fight back, but you should be able to do it twice before the counterattacks get really nasty.

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: Too much money, and still stuck
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2013, 12:30:16 pm »
Fortresses are great, but they will die against Polycrystal units, so make sure you back them up with something that can kill Polycrystal hulls, or even 30-40 Bombers can destroy them.

Offline Tridus

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,305
  • I'm going to do what I do best: lecture her!
Re: Too much money, and still stuck
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2013, 12:49:21 pm »
Thank you all for advice!

Tridus, I liked your advice of building fortresses. The problem I have is I never know how many turrets or fortresses are "enough" to stop a wave. I might be putting 100 missile turrets on the planet and think it will do just fine - when the next wave of AI comes in and wipes them all out!
Is single fortress sufficient vs. 1k wave of ships?

Honestly I think it's something you learn with practice. You want to have some backup ships in case stuff breaks through, but you can build a defense against huge waves and Fotresses are a part of that defense.

The thing is that one Fortress can handle 1k fighters with ease, but will get destroyed by 50 bombers if it's alone. No one defense can hold off everything the AI has. So you need a more layered defense on a planet, as one of the links demonstrated in this thread. :) The nice thing abot Fortresses is that they have very large range (hold down Z while pointing at one and you can see its range), and they can move (very slowly) to be positioned optimally. You want to put them behind other defenses and let their range protect them from things like bombers, while they flatten other types of ships. They also have the ability to repair (as do mini forts). Tractor beam turrets near the wormhole will hold ships in place and let your turrets hammer away at them. Put a forcefield over the tractors and they'll hold longer. (Hardened Forcefields are a great unlock, not expensive to get extra FFs and some units can barely scratch them.)

On a planet I really want to hold (like one I'm setting up at a choke point that I know will be attacked) I'll put tractors at the wormhole, two mini forts near the wormhole (to repair the turrets), a big fortress farther back. Build at least one remains rebuilder, which will rebuild destroyed turrets and mines automatically (your fortresses and any engineers can repair them).

Then I'll put down some standard turrets: basic (needler), laser, missle, MLRS. Snipers well back, or Spiders if I have them. A Heavy Beam Cannon for sure. If I put a forcefield up near the wormhole, flak or lightning underneath it (those are okay under a FF, most other turrets aren't). Put mines around the wormhole, or between the wormhole and what the AI is likely to attack. Normal mines early on, EMP or Area Mines if you have them. Then I'll use a millitary command station for the attack boost on the turrets and the cloaking detection. (I tend to get mk II Millitary Command Station once I have an important building to unlock, and if the game goes long enough mk III for really key things like the advanced factory.)

If you have multiple wormholes attacks can come from then it's a bit different and I may cluster the defenses more around an object instead (like the advanced factory), but I'll use the same set of buildings. I don't typically use gravitational turrets, but I should. :) I'm still learning the game, so there's things I need to incorporate.

For defensive helpes, Leech Starships are quite nice. They can reclaim a lot of the stuff in waves and make them your ships instead, which really boosts your defensive firepower. That's why I use logistics command stations behind the front line: they let me move my ships around between planets VERY quickly. Just mk I, I typically don't unlock higher ranks of that, but you might find them worth it (higher ranks slow down enemy ships by larger amounts).

Note that unlocking millitary stations also gives your home system the attack boost from the station, and the cloaking detection. mk I has a narrow range of cloaking detection, mk II is wider, and mk III covers the entire planet.

Quote
Also, I did unlock harvesters. I unlocked basically everything - because I've been focusing on researching only econ stuff, while my friend researched ships only. So we effectively x2 our knowledge, kind of.

Neat! Personally I wouldn't unlock both harvesters and economic command stations, as they serve the same purpose.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 12:51:04 pm by Tridus »

Offline Kahuna

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,222
  • Kahuna Matata!
Re: Too much money, and still stuck
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2013, 06:24:51 am »
The problem I have is I never know how many turrets or fortresses are "enough" to stop a wave.
I usually have 3 "whipping boys" so I build 30 of all turrets on all 3 planets. So.. I just split the caps between the whipping boys. On 10 diff at 50 AIP waves are about +-600 ships each. I'd say 30 of all turrets is enough to stop wave of +-400 ships autonomously.. maybe more maybe less.. maybe 150 maybe 700 depends. But I'd say about 400. On 70 AIP waves are about 950 - 1200 ships. Just add Minefields like I did in my guide on top of the same turrets and 1200 ship wave will be stopped autonomously. Though the problem with Minefields is that sometimes they work and sometimes they don't.. usually they do.. but sometimes the AI ships randomly fly in a "wrong" direction and will thus avoid the mines.. or they spread out "too" much after they come trough the wormhole. At best the mines destroy like 1000 of the 1200 ships and at worst about 350. In case the worst happens you need to be ready to send your fleet to support the turrets. If "the worst" keeps happening you just need to reposition some of the Minefields. After you have played a couple of hours and/or stopped something like 6 waves without "the worst" happening you can safely use your fleet for other things. Normal Minefields are pretty good too. Just remember to use the line placing (I explained that in the guide too).
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline Kahuna

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,222
  • Kahuna Matata!
Re: Too much money, and still stuck
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2013, 06:26:30 am »
This is one of the reasons I don't like investing in Economic Command Station III. They do give a lot of resources, but the cost in knowledge makes it hard to spend those resources. You also need more defenses per planet to sustain a solid defense because that station contributes nothing to your protection.
That's why Economi Command Stations are currently underpowered. Use Mark III Harvesters and you're ok.
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!