The new Hybrids

[Wanderer]

So, I was hoping to entertain Keith a bit with some metadata discussion on the new hybrids.  While waiting on .023 in frustration at AI 10/10, I booted up a 9/9 game with Advanced Hybrids (x2) and a Dyson sphere on.

Allow me to declare my amusement when not one, not two, but *3* of the five systems hanging off my (single) homeworld were Class IVs.  The only other time I fought hybrids was a 5/5 war when I was doing a completionist snake, and they were speedbumps.  Allow me to be the first to just whistle at how ugly these little fegs are.  I've continued playing since it seems like fun.  That and 10/10 might be a bit much with the hybrids till I know what to expect.

All three of those worlds were packing some heavy hybrid spawning equipment.  My usual early game in the first 2 hours has me setup on about 8-9 worlds.  Those hybrids made knocking those IVs down early damnably difficult.  Constantly rebuilding.  I've actually had to do early system conquers in waves.

Add to that they rebuild pretty quickly.  They've just barely started getting Tech III shields and modules, but that's a warning.  I haven't seen them use drones yet (I don't think anyway, how DO you tell if they're using drones?).  I'm finally dealing with the first layer of worlds at 2:00 in and working out to the next set, nerfing what I need to and things like that.  (for those curious, I haven't setup a whipping boy or anything yet, I'm mobile with scattered light defenses, I'm waiting until I get to a natural choke point built into the map but that's 3-4 hours off).

Hybrids seem to be rather aggressive, and aren't showing up as standard threat, either.  I'll have threat 10 and a 70 ship wave (of TIII and IVs) with a hybrid or two as a leader will come racing in on something with 30 turrets and a FF.  Occassionally it's 5 or 6 of these things.  I've started using a Bomber Starship crew for them particularly, and may upgrade to Starship IIs just to help keep the hybrids in line.  The universe seems to be outright littered with hybrid spawners and modules.

Anyone elses experiences with hybrids of interest yet?

[keith.lamothe]

The universe seems to be outright littered with hybrid spawners and modules.

You know why the universe seems that way?  Because it is 

You haven't actually seen any of the new stuff yet, though, that will probably start somewhere around the 4 hour mark

[Wanderer]

The universe seems to be outright littered with hybrid spawners and modules.

You know why the universe seems that way?  Because it is 

You haven't actually seen any of the new stuff yet, though, that will probably start somewhere around the 4 hour mark

Heh, I thought it was because I was a bit overwhelmed by early Class IV worlds (it's almost 1/2 of them, might be due to my AI choices).  Good to know.  Both items.

[keith.lamothe]

Heh, I thought it was because I was a bit overwhelmed by early Class IV worlds (it's almost 1/2 of them, might be due to my AI choices).

Higher difficulty causes more planet "upgrades" during mapgen so you can get more IVs.  Also, if you play more than 80 planets there tends to be more IIIs/IVs.  120 planets can be very heavy on the high-mark stuff.

[zoutzakje]

allright, I've seen some of the new hybrid stuff... I can say that it is nasty. I'm playing the endgame of my dif 7/7 with normal hybrids right as we speak. I'm going to have to be very very quick and rush through the homeworlds if I want to survive. first a super hyrbid spawned a few hours ago (about 2 and a half hours of playtime after the hybrid patch). I wasn't really shocked because I had a few golems and a large fleet already, but I can imagine that it could bring some pain early game. Oh I haven't killed it yet btw. It's roaming around the AI's systems, to scared to attack.
A few hours after the super hybrid spawned, I got another warning saying that there was a strange signal somewhere in the galaxy. Both this and the previous warning didn't say exactly where it was, unless I had scouts present at the world they were on (even though I have already scouted every planet in the galaxy). I could not find this strange signal and a few hours later the warning changed and said that there was a strange device somewhere in the galaxy, antagonizing the dyson sphere. This causes the dyson sphere to ally with the AI and spawn lots of enemy dyson gatlings very quickly. That was 30 mins ago, there are currently about 200 enemy dysons attacking several of my planets. and the worst part is that the enemy dysons can shoot my dysons, while my dysons just float around and do nothing. So only my golems are probably able to stop it.
Also it's been more than 3 hours since the last CPA, so I'm expecting one soon... and with all my dysons and zombies getting shot to oblivion, I won't have enough defenses to handle the CPA. Really gotta try to wrap this up quickly lol.
I'm curious to see what else you get with the advanced hybrids. I should make a 7/7 advanced hybrid game after this.

[Shrugging Khan]

Half a year ago, my extremely conservative play style got me repeatedly cuddly hugged  by extensive but eventually fatal Hybrid sieges (from several dozens to over a hundred). I started stocking up on basic turrets of all MK levels, and even managed to survive a few hybrid onslaughts, but in the end I had to actually adapt and play more aggressively; taking more ground for resources and knowledge, and very frequently venturing out to exterminating hybrid threat.

Right now, they don't seem to trouble me overly much...they're a nuisance, but easy to beat back.

[keith.lamothe]

Right now, they don't seem to trouble me overly much...they're a nuisance, but easy to beat back.

Yea, and that's not far off from where the normal hybrids should be: if you aren't used to them, they'll probably cost you the game, and it makes you learn new things about the game to counter.  Once you've done that, they're not that bad.

Advanced hybrids I want to just be brutal, albeit through clever/interesting things rather than just a brute-force-hammer.  Granted, the clever stuff will generally result in a brute-force-hammer, but it's the journey that counts.

I'm going to have to be very very quick and rush through the homeworlds if I want to survive.

Or find the the device and destroy it.

first a super hyrbid spawned a few hours ago (about 2 and a half hours of playtime after the hybrid patch). I wasn't really shocked because I had a few golems and a large fleet already, but I can imagine that it could bring some pain early game. Oh I haven't killed it yet btw. It's roaming around the AI's systems, to scared to attack.

What you mistake for fear...   It's fairly buff by itself, but it knows that what it can accomplish on the front lines is minimal compared to what it can accomplish in other ways.

A few hours after the super hybrid spawned, I got another warning saying that there was a strange signal somewhere in the galaxy. Both this and the previous warning didn't say exactly where it was, unless I had scouts present at the world they were on (even though I have already scouted every planet in the galaxy).

Yes, the normal policy is that you have to have an active scout on a planet to get planet-specific alerts.  In fact, generally you don't even get an alert for stuff happening on a planet you don't have a scout on, but I felt it was important to at least give you the courtesy of knowing "skullduggery is afoot somewhere you're not looking".

and the worst part is that the enemy dysons can shoot my dysons, while my dysons just float around and do nothing.

Yea, that's been the case with AI Dysons vs Neutral/Player Dysons.  The latter cannot target a mkV unit, and Dysons are mkV units.  If I had a simple way of making an exception, I would.  I could make AI Dysons mkIV instead, but that would render them vulnerable to the Devourer Golem (and nukes/EMPs/etc though I could set those immunities separately).  Maybe I'll do that, though, so your ally dysons can fight back.  Whatever good it will do you

I'm curious to see what else you get with the advanced hybrids. I should make a 7/7 advanced hybrid game after this.

It's basically the same as advanced hybrids, but they don't stop with the antagonizer.  It gets worse   As far as new stuff, you've seen all that there is for the normal hybrids.

[Shrugging Khan]

BTW, do advanced hybrids still rebuild destroyed AI command stations? Because that would be very bad for AIP, methinks 

[keith.lamothe]

BTW, do advanced hybrids still rebuild destroyed AI command stations? Because that would be very bad for AIP, methinks 

They never actually have done that; it was just something I wanted them to do.  The AIP concern was one of the things we knew we needed to figure out before implementing them.

With the "Super Hybrid" mechanic we could potentially have them have a chance of taking a re-colonize mission, and it could be rare enough and you'd have enough time to stop it before they succeeded that the AIP cost of retaking is on your head if you let them get away with it.  Still not sure about it, though.

[zoutzakje]

What you mistake for fear...   It's fairly buff by itself, but it knows that what it can accomplish on the front lines is minimal compared to what it can accomplish in other ways.

now you're scaring me lol. I'll kill it if it gets anywhere near one of my golems.

Yes, the normal policy is that you have to have an active scout on a planet to get planet-specific alerts.  In fact, generally you don't even get an alert for stuff happening on a planet you don't have a scout on, but I felt it was important to at least give you the courtesy of knowing "skullduggery is afoot somewhere you're not looking".

So I have to rescout all planets again with my mk IV scout in order to find the device? damn. It's kinda to late for that now lol I haven't continued yet but I still think it's best to try to quickly finish this mess. there is a super terminal on a coreworld, but I think it's best to skip even that and just rush to the second homeworld.

Yea, that's been the case with AI Dysons vs Neutral/Player Dysons.  The latter cannot target a mkV unit, and Dysons are mkV units.  If I had a simple way of making an exception, I would.  I could make AI Dysons mkIV instead, but that would render them vulnerable to the Devourer Golem (and nukes/EMPs/etc though I could set those immunities separately).  Maybe I'll do that, though, so your ally dysons can fight back.  Whatever good it will do you

this would do me a lot of good in my current game actually lol. It would give me time

It's basically the same as advanced hybrids, but they don't stop with the antagonizer.  It gets worse   As far as new stuff, you've seen all that there is for the normal hybrids.

yeah I remember you saying that the regular hybrids only have 2 new things to annoy us and that the advanced hybrids get some more. I'm glad I was one of the first players to discover some it though :p My very first game with hybrids turned out to be quite a challenge after all.

P.S  I kinda messed up the quoting, but I'm sure you'll figure it out

KDL Edit: fixed the quoting for you

[keith.lamothe]

now you're scaring me lol

Hehe.  A few weeks ago while planning some of this I told Chris I wanted to get the GlaDOS voice for the hybrids   The Defense Grid devs pulled it off for their latest expansion, but I figure we're too small-fry.

So I have to rescout all planets again with my mk IV scout in order to find the device?

Generally we like to motivate you to keep "picket" scouts on all remotely-nearby enemy planets so you can keep tabs on threat movement, exo movement, hybrid movement, etc.  This is another reason

But you can also just do hectic and dangerous recon-or-die missions once you get the device warning (or later).  We like that too   Can you find it before it kills you?

this would do me a lot of good in my current game actually lol. It would give me time

Ok, the change is on my list.  Don't count on the release coming out in the next few days, though.  There's a limit to how frequently I can bug Chris to take time from AVWW to push a AIW release

yeah I remember you saying that the regular hybrids only have 2 new things to annoy us and that the advanced hybrids get some more. I'm glad I was one of the first players to discover some it though :p

The first one I'm aware of to report seeing a super hybrid, unless I'm forgetting something.  Thanks for giving it a whirl, I hope stuff like this will make the game more interesting, particularly for folks who usually have to play high difficulty to get a challenge.

[zoutzakje]

well, it certainly got more interesting lol. I'm afraid I lost the game. I had only 2 saves, and in both cases the hybrid plot had advanced to much for me to be able to do something about it. Right when I killed the first homeworld, "you lost" suddenly appeared in my screen. I was like "huh wtf, since when does killing a homeworld make you LOSE the game"  when I realized the enemy dysons went straight for my homeworld and wiped it clean in seconds. I tried it a few more times, but not even a mk II fortress and fully loaded hive golem could stop them or at least scare them off.
The only possible thing I can think of to hold this back is to have your fleet stationed at the dyson world, killing all dysons right when they get spawned. Using mk III engineers to reapair your fleet, using a mk IV scout to find that antagonizer, and then using your golems to punch through and destroy it. Unfortunately my game has advanced to much even for that. the dyson is at the other side of the galaxy and have already built up a massive force.
I'll wait with deleting my save file until the next patch, if you can find a way to make player dysons be able to shoot at AI dysons, while it still has all of it's regular immunites. Considering the fact that I have nearly 1k dysons patrolling my systems, that might buy me the time I need.
In the meantime I'll start an 8/8 fallen spire try out game (no hybrids this time )

[keith.lamothe]

The only possible thing I can think of to hold this back is to have your fleet stationed at the dyson world, killing all dysons right when they get spawned.

In my tests I was able to hold them off at a single wormhole (they only had one way in) using a *LOT* of turrets, but I didn't have to devote mobile forces.  The main reason I needed so much is that I needed to be able to kill 6 dysons before the next 6 showed up.  It gets to the point where you want to put your missile turrets close so that the projectiles don't take so long to hit.

Remember, they aren't immune to tractors, so a big ball of tractors under a big ball of forcefields will keep them immobile unless you just can't kill them fast enough.

Anyway, glad to hear the new super hybrid has claimed a victory

[TechSY730]

I have not seen the new behavior, but from what little has been revealed here, I'm going to take a guess at what it is.

With advanced hybrids, once the hybrids have reached a certain level of maturity, it can
a) Spawn a hybrid with either really powerful addons, OR an different hybrid ship type whose base stats on the main ship are better than the normal hybrid ship's (aka, "super hybrids"). Presumably, these super hybrids can abuse the hybrid modules for more stuff than normal hybrids, and can pull off some smarter decisions about how to annoy the player (not sure which, or maybe both, or maybe the first behavior at one cutoff of maturity, and the other once it gets higher still)
b) As mentioned, once it reaches a certain level of maturity, a hybrid hive (or possibly, only a super hybrid hive) can be sent to build a "Dyson antagonizer", which forces the Dyson sphere (if any) to spit out AI ally gattlings.

Does this antagonizer override the friendliness of the sphere when you have freed the dyson sphere from their world? If so, are human ally gattlings spawned along with AI ally gattlings, or does the sphere start completely acting like the player took its world, whether a player did or not?

Also, does the anoagonizer spawn fully constructed, or does it have to build up like a normal construction? (I think I remember the old turret building behavior made turrets that had to be constructed normally by the AI, but I could be wrong)

Anyways, I'm glad to see the ability for hybrids to "build" stuff make a return, even if there is only one thing it can build right now.

[keith.lamothe]

I have not seen the new behavior, but from what little has been revealed here, I'm going to take a guess at what it is.

With advanced hybrids, once the hybrids have reached a certain level of maturity, it can
a) Spawn a hybrid with either really powerful addons, OR an different hybrid ship type whose base stats on the main ship are better than the normal hybrid ship's (aka, "super hybrids"). Presumably, these super hybrids can abuse the hybrid modules for more stuff than normal hybrids, and can pull off some smarter decisions about how to annoy the player (not sure which, or maybe both, or maybe the first behavior at one cutoff of maturity, and the other once it gets higher still)
b) As mentioned, once it reaches a certain level of maturity, a hybrid hive (or possibly, only a super hybrid hive) can be sent to build a "Dyson antagonizer", which forces the Dyson sphere (if any) to spit out AI ally gattlings.

Somewhat close

Does this antagonizer override the friendliness of the sphere when you have freed the dyson sphere from their world? If so, are human ally gattlings spawned along with AI ally gattlings, or does the sphere start completely acting like the player took its world, whether a player did or not?

Yes, it simply forces the dyson logic to always take the code branch that previously only happened if the humans had a command station on the dyson planet.  So it only spawns AI Dysons.  But if you destroy the antagonizer that forcing stops happening (so you'd still get AI Dysons if you really do have a command station on the dyson planet, but not otherwise).

Also, does the anoagonizer spawn fully constructed, or does it have to build up like a normal construction? (I think I remember the old turret building behavior made turrets that had to be constructed normally by the AI, but I could be wrong)

It uses the hybrid "construction module" mechanic: when the super hybrid picks a build-dyson-antagonizer mission, it finds and travels to a construction module factory, spawns a dyson-antagonizer-construction-module, and once they reach the target planet that module builds up build points over time and once it gets to the build-threshold the module spawns the structure and is removed from the game.

Anyways, I'm glad to see the ability for hybrids to "build" stuff make a return, even if there is only one thing it can build right now.

Yea, I'm happy about it too.  I liked when they built fortress worlds and/or massive piles of hybrid spawners, but it just was out of control before.  Super Hybrids are considerably easier to keep down to a certain quantity/activity while still letting the "standard" hybrids be their usual annoying/threatening selves.