The early game

[Draco18s]

***Assuming Riot Starships go down in number as their tech goes up. If it does not now, ignore the whole argument.

It's 3, 3, 3.

I just looked at my game, and its "4, 3 , 2." I have 5.0 Light of the Spire.

Good catch.  I wasn't at home and rarely build Mk1 or Mk3 Riots.  Why would I when Riot Tazers are so good?

[chemical_art]

Good catch.  I wasn't at home and rarely build Mk1 or Mk3 Riots.  Why would I when Riot Tazers are so good?

No doubt, those Tazers look cool. But the problem is that the Riot Ship line does not increase in power as much as it should. The MK II should be double in ability compared to the MK I, while the MK III should be three times as effective, roughly. If the caps were at least the same I think it would be a little better, but as it stands right now they are simply underperforming unless shown otherwise.

[keith.lamothe]

I'm certainly open to rebalancing the non-tazer riot modules (the tazer seems like it's in a good spot of borderline-OP without sprinting past the line) and/or the ships themselves (meaning the caps, most likely).  Haven't touched those since about 3.120, iirc.  I'd like to see just how much better a mkIII is than a mkI, though, iirc I made the mkII shotguns particularly brutal.  Though the balancing may have mellowed that.

One thing about Riots is that currently they're a lot better on low caps than on normal or high.  I'd need to make their number of shots scale with caps for that to quite work.

[chemical_art]

I'm certainly open to rebalancing the non-tazer riot modules (the tazer seems like it's in a good spot of borderline-OP without sprinting past the line) and/or the ships themselves (meaning the caps, most likely).  Haven't touched those since about 3.120, iirc.  I'd like to see just how much better a mkIII is than a mkI, though, iirc I made the mkII shotguns particularly brutal.  Though the balancing may have mellowed that.

One thing about Riots is that currently they're a lot better on low caps than on normal or high.  I'd need to make their number of shots scale with caps for that to quite work.

Riot ships are not so easy to compare simply because their modules have to first be evened out, and modules don't follow the mk series of increase very much. It would not be hard to do (even a monkey like me can) but it would take some extra time.One could make an excel spreadsheet and just keep track of engine DPS, normal DPS, etc. of the different marks assuming the ship follows a certain layout. I would imagine optimally it would compare the "long-range" version and the "max engine" DPS versions to start with. I cannot think of any clean way to do this though, the most I can think of would is make modules of the different ship parts and then have the spread sheet automatically insert each turret's data into the starship.

---
So for example if the ship had four light modules, the excel sheet would automatically give you both a short range version and the long range version's statistics. You can then make charts from that and compare how they change in power per tech level.

[Draco18s]

The Mk2 will be the hardest though.

The tazer and the better shield are mutually exclusive, but you can get the same effect by using two smaller shields, which forces out a gun.

So you'd probably need 3 builds:
1 big shield.
1 Tazer, 2 small shields.
1 Tazer, 1 small shield.
(plus guns as will fit)

[TechSY730]

For those of you complaining about the poor damage output of the riot control starship line, AFAIK, they were never meant to be damage dealers in the first place. Rather, they were more geared towards support, especially in terms of inflicting engine damage.

I would agree that although the modules do get more useful and "supportive" as they gain Mk. Lvls, it may not be enough to justify the knowledge cost. How are the number of bullets per salvo scaling up Mk wise for the offensive (non-tazer) modules. From what others are saying, the current rate may not be enough.

 Also, I would not mind at all having the riot modules lose some engine damage potential (and maybe even range) in return for noticeable HP damage (not great damage, but just enough such that it can actually contribute to a battle some)  This way, Riots still maintain their support starship role, but not to the extreme that it starts crippling usability. However, this is a much more debatable change, but I thought I would throw the idea out anyways.

Oh, and for the person who was asking what counters raid starships now have. I think the best ones that every game has are missile turrets and sniper turrets. Both have good armor piercing and a bonus against ultra-light hulls (which raid starships have). The sniper turret even has radar dampening immunity. Missile frigates also have an ultra-light bonus, but no armor piercing or radar dampening immunity, so it would not be as effective. And yes, raid starships no longer have missile or sniper immunities, which is why these counters work now.

[Kjara]

Any chance of giving riots the ability to use (basic,laser,flak,ff,lightning) turret techs for small-medium upgrades to (machine gun, laser, shotgun,ff,taser) to make them scale better into the mid/later game?  I'm thinking perhaps riot 1's would just use what they have now (stats could still be tweaked, but no upgrades from tech prob), riot 2 could use either some default version, or a version unlocked by the mk2 version of that turret, and the riot 3's could either have 3 options or a default + one unlocked with tier III turrets.  Doesn't have to be a huge boost(aka the upgrade shouldn't be as drastic as you get with the spire ships), but just a way to make it so you really can't have full potential riot 2 or 3's at the start, but after taking a handful of planets, they can still scale upward at least some.  Note I'm hoping for more extra targets and extra engine damage from the upgrades, rather than huge damage increases.

[keith.lamothe]

I'm certainly happy to have "upgraded" modules become available as a synergy bonus for researching the corresponding turret techs (using the same code branches I did for the Fallen Spire stuff).  That should probably wait until a bit later when some of these more pressing things are dealt with.

The Riot is one of my all-time favorite units, it being the first new unit I made.  I don't tend to find them necessary, but they're quite helpful when you really want the mob to calm down

[chemical_art]

For those of you complaining about the poor damage output of the riot control starship line, AFAIK, they were never meant to be damage dealers in the first place. Rather, they were more geared towards support, especially in terms of inflicting engine damage.

I would agree that although the modules do get more useful and "supportive" as they gain Mk. Lvls, it may not be enough to justify the knowledge cost. How are the number of bullets per salvo scaling up Mk wise for the offensive (non-tazer) modules. From what others are saying, the current rate may not be enough.

 Also, I would not mind at all having the riot modules lose some engine damage potential (and maybe even range) in return for noticeable HP damage (not great damage, but just enough such that it can actually contribute to a battle some)  This way, Riots still maintain their support starship role, but not to the extreme that it starts crippling usability. However, this is a much more debatable change, but I thought I would throw the idea out anyways.

Oh, and for the person who was asking what counters raid starships now have. I think the best ones that every game has are missile turrets and sniper turrets. Both have good armor piercing and a bonus against ultra-light hulls (which raid starships have). The sniper turret even has radar dampening immunity. Missile frigates also have an ultra-light bonus, but no armor piercing or radar dampening immunity, so it would not be as effective. And yes, raid starships no longer have missile or sniper immunities, which is why these counters work now.

I am referring solely by engine damage,, although DPS itself should also follow the usual MK path of increases. Neither engine damage nor regular damage scale up so cleanly. The tazer is awesome for it still uses the old method of lightning attacks that shuttles used to have but with added paralysis, but all other modules seem to fall behind. Unless I can write down all the turret's data down I cannot tell you quantitatively how much the riots change though.

[TechSY730]

I don't tend to find them necessary, but they're quite helpful when you really want the mob to calm down

Which mob? The ones where there are tons of fleet ships to stall, or all the players that are still a bit "salty" about the chaotic 4.0->5.0 beta cycle? 

[keith.lamothe]

I don't tend to find them necessary, but they're quite helpful when you really want the mob to calm down

Which mob? The ones where there are tons of fleet ships to stall, or all the players that are still a bit "salty" about the chaotic 4.0->5.0 beta cycle? 

Oh, we have ninjas for that.  I meant lots of fleet ships

[TechSY730]

I don't tend to find them necessary, but they're quite helpful when you really want the mob to calm down

Which mob? The ones where there are tons of fleet ships to stall, or all the players that are still a bit "salty" about the chaotic 4.0->5.0 beta cycle? 

Oh, we have ninjas for that.  I meant lots of fleet ships

How could I forget that standard industry practice? If you use a public beta process, make sure to hire some ninjas (though on-call mercenary ninja's can serve as a reasonable substitute.)

[Sunshine!]

How could I forget that standard industry practice? If you use a public beta process, make sure to hire some ninjas (though on-call mercenary ninja's can serve as a reasonable substitute.)

Just remember, mercenary ninjas are 5x as expensive but count as mk4.

[Draco18s]

How could I forget that standard industry practice? If you use a public beta process, make sure to hire some ninjas (though on-call mercenary ninja's can serve as a reasonable substitute.)

Just remember, mercenary ninjas are 5x as expensive but count as mk4.

HAHA!

Also:
Keith and X, I have to thank you guys for being rational and understading.
I got told by a RealmsForge dev/staff/forum mod that I was a "troll" for criticizing their new game, Dungeons.
(Oh, and banned from the steam forums for "advocating piracy")

[BobTheJanitor]

Pirate trolls are scary. Sailing their scurvy crews on creaky old ships through the sunless seas in the forgotten bowels of the earth. A constant danger on subterranean scuba diving vacations, or so I hear.