Author Topic: The AI is a jerk when it comes to spire fleet ships.  (Read 6191 times)

Offline CoyoteTheClever

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The AI is a jerk when it comes to spire fleet ships.
« on: February 09, 2011, 03:33:04 pm »
Spire blade spawners are a pretty big culprit. Wow do these things hurt when they are spread around a hostile planet. It can make the task of taking it over very, very painful as these things keep spawning and instantly killing your ships. And you can't even use the tricks you can use to have snipers not bother you against them either.

Another evil thing the AI did with spire ships is unlocked the Maw and Mini-Ram together. Basically, my ships were either too small and got eaten by maws, which take forever to kill, or too large and got killed by rams. The small ships could have helped against the rams, and the large ships could have helped against the maws, but they kept getting countered because they were all unlocked by the same AI :D

Admittedly, I'm not very good at the game, but the AI likes to make my life more difficult than it should be :P

Offline TechSY730

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Re: The AI is a jerk when it comes to spire fleet ships.
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2011, 03:40:15 pm »
Well, there is cureently a bug where the caps on the number of spire fleet ships per planet and per guard post are in many cases being ignored. This has already been fixed for the yet to be released beta. I think it will even fix save games that have too many spire ships, but I am not sure.

After this fix gets pushed, you should start seeing them in much more manageable numbers.

Offline CoyoteTheClever

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Re: The AI is a jerk when it comes to spire fleet ships.
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2011, 03:57:29 pm »
Aha, so it wasn't completely my fault for having so much trouble here :D

Kinda like the old difficulty bugs like the one where the AI would send a bunch of practically unkillable zenith bombers at you after the Zenith expansion was out :P. The AI is always mean when it gets new toys to play with.

Offline Red Spot

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Re: The AI is a jerk when it comes to spire fleet ships.
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2011, 03:57:45 pm »
Ah, wait till you see a starship demolisher, grasshopper :)
Than combine those with EMP-guardians  ::)

Get those high mark fighters, with a bunch of engies supporting docks spawning them they are effectivly a fleet/cap. If you need to you can put a dock right on the other side of a gate for instant reinforcements. That'll teach the AI!  :)

Offline CoyoteTheClever

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Re: The AI is a jerk when it comes to spire fleet ships.
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2011, 05:41:43 pm »
Do not mention EMP guardians in my topics please, they trigger PTSD for me  :'(. Seriously, those things have ended at least 4 games for me thus far.

Offline Sunshine!

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Re: The AI is a jerk when it comes to spire fleet ships.
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2011, 08:42:10 pm »
I'm going to gripe about Spire Stealth Battleships (in addition to Maws and Gravity Drains).  Mostly because Stealth Battleships, having radar dampening equal (or less than) their attack range makes turrets useless against them, and fighters take forever to kill them.

Gravity drains...  Gravity guardians are one thing, but they're rare.  The AI gets gravity drains, and you can kiss your entire fleet goodbye because you can't run away or even get into attack range with short-range ships.

Maws - if anything, I wish they digested my ships faster if anything.  Seriously, it's kind of annoying when they eat 50+ of my fighters and then run away and I have to wait a while to be able to rebuild, and I can't go hunt the maws down because then I won't have any fighters left to build for a while because they'll all get eaten too.

Rams I haven't had a problem with - I've found them really easy to kill, and they're kinda slow.  Blade spawners I haven't played against, as with the other spire ships (armor rotters, tractor platforms, gravity rippers...)

Offline TechSY730

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Re: The AI is a jerk when it comes to spire fleet ships.
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2011, 09:18:37 pm »
I'm going to gripe about Spire Stealth Battleships (in addition to Maws and Gravity Drains).  Mostly because Stealth Battleships, having radar dampening equal (or less than) their attack range makes turrets useless against them, and fighters take forever to kill them.

Gravity drains...  Gravity guardians are one thing, but they're rare.  The AI gets gravity drains, and you can kiss your entire fleet goodbye because you can't run away or even get into attack range with short-range ships.

Maws - if anything, I wish they digested my ships faster if anything.  Seriously, it's kind of annoying when they eat 50+ of my fighters and then run away and I have to wait a while to be able to rebuild, and I can't go hunt the maws down because then I won't have any fighters left to build for a while because they'll all get eaten too.

Rams I haven't had a problem with - I've found them really easy to kill, and they're kinda slow.  Blade spawners I haven't played against, as with the other spire ships (armor rotters, tractor platforms, gravity rippers...)

Before I respond, I would like to mention I think of fleet ships being dividing into four tiers:
"Starship like": Starship like caps (and low limits for the AI on number per planet and per guard post), costs, attack, and survivability. A fleet ship in name only, so to speak. These include (but are not limited to) Spire Stealth Battleships, Spire maws, and Spire blade spawners.
"Almost starship like": Noticeably more expensive and noticeably lower ship caps than the triangle ships (also with limits for the AI on number per planet and per guard post, but at a higher order of magnitude), with increased attack and/or survivability to make up for it. However, not tough enough to "play" in the starship tier. These include (but are not limited to) Zenith Electric Bombers, Spire Gravity Drains, Spire Armor Rotters, and maybe sniper ships
"Normal": Similar in cost, attack, ship cap, and overall power as the triangle ships. These include, well, most of the fleet ships, but the bomber, frigate, and fighter serve as the reference stats for this tier.
"Swarmer": Low cost, low health, low attack, high ship cap. The "zergling like" ships of the game. These include (but are not limited to), Laser gattlings, Infiltrators, most melee ships, and Neinzul younglings (though for some reason these have normal ship caps).

Anyways,
Make sure to think of Spire Stealth Battleships, Maws, and Spire Blade Spawners more as starships than as fleet ships. Their stats and ship caps are balanced according to those level of units. They will seem much closer to balanced when you think of them that way.

Also keep in mind that the huge number of them that the AI is currently using is a bug. The next version will enforce the caps they were supposed to have.

I do agree with you that thanks to how major gravity effects are, Spire Gravity Drains should rebalanced to be put into the starship tier, with correspondingly low caps for the humans and the AI.

EDIT: Oh, and I agree that the HP of the Spire Stealth Battleship could use a bit of nerfing, as their stealth and radar dampening already provide it plenty of protection.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 09:29:12 pm by techsy730 »

Offline Sunshine!

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Re: The AI is a jerk when it comes to spire fleet ships.
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2011, 10:25:23 pm »
Oh, I know that the Spireships are supposed to be "starship class" fleetships.  Like I said, I haven't played against a number of the spire ships yet, but on the surface it seems like many of them may actually be more powerful than corresponding marks of starships, while having greater caps as well.  I mean, this is okay in the sense that you're guaranteed that certain set of starships, whereas the spireships you either choose or hope to get lucky with an ARS.  I also haven't really used them because starship-class fleetships doesn't really suit my style right now.  I'm on kind of a Chameleon/vampire/cutlass kick - the Chameleons are an extremely versatile fighter/bomber.  Vampires actually work now with armor piercing and I use them to clear ships from under forcefields, along with being very survivable, fast, nice bonuses and pretty awesome.  The cutlasses, I just wish they were more user-friendly.  Self-damage, slow, awkward bonuses, take forever to build (13 minutes for a cap of mk1, unassisted), and they have a bad habit of getting caught up on forcefields and killing themselves without doing much if you leave them unmonitored on FRD on an enemy planet.

On the AI side I just seem to keep running up against spire fleetships (especially the stealth battleships), which is aggravating because they're really hard to deal with because of their radar dampening.  With the Maws, it was the whole "oh gosh, the AI is stealing all my ships with Etherjets again" feeling, except at least etherjets either die faster and you get your ship back quickly, or your ship dies quickly.  With the maw... forevvvvver.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: The AI is a jerk when it comes to spire fleet ships.
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2011, 10:33:11 pm »
I agree with giving the maws an "eating rate" increase.

As for the spire stealth battleships, yes they are aggrivating to deal with, but so is any other fleet ship with cloaking and radar dampening.

I still think they could use a bit of a HP nerf though.

Offline Tharrick

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Re: The AI is a jerk when it comes to spire fleet ships.
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2011, 12:32:36 am »
Spire tractor platforms. AAAARGH! Lost count of the number of times I've lost a fleet to those bastards dropping in, grabbing all my fleet ships and then flying off in different directions, splitting the whole thing up in really hostile territory when I really need them grouped :(

Offline TechSY730

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Re: The AI is a jerk when it comes to spire fleet ships.
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2011, 12:34:48 am »
Spire tractor platforms. AAAARGH! Lost count of the number of times I've lost a fleet to those bastards dropping in, grabbing all my fleet ships and then flying off in different directions, splitting the whole thing up in really hostile territory when I really need them grouped :(

Mobile tractor ships are very annoying to fight, especially when a player knows how to micro them when they start capturing a bunch of ships. (which mid to high level AIs will always remember to do :P)

Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: The AI is a jerk when it comes to spire fleet ships.
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2011, 04:40:44 am »
Spire tractor platforms. AAAARGH! Lost count of the number of times I've lost a fleet to those bastards dropping in, grabbing all my fleet ships and then flying off in different directions, splitting the whole thing up in really hostile territory when I really need them grouped :(

Haha! Tell me about it :D

Hate them so much in the hands of the AI ;)
We are the architects of our own existence

Offline Sunshine!

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Re: The AI is a jerk when it comes to spire fleet ships.
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2011, 10:42:32 am »
Shouldn't the Thief AI type get Mobile Tractor platforms (if it doesn't currently - I don't think it actually does, does it?)