The AI's response to champions question...

[chemical_art]

I've tried many games, but to this day, I still find it too tempting to not hang back and get to at least a cruiser in my AS shadows game.

I am really craving an incentive, positive or negative, to not let me hang back to pursue the rest of the game until I've smothered a large portion of the nebulae beforehand.

[keith.lamothe]

I've tried many games, but to this day, I still find it too tempting to not hang back and get to at least a cruiser in my AS shadows game.

I am really craving an incentive, positive or negative, to not let me hang back to pursue the rest of the game until I've smothered a large portion of the nebulae beforehand.

Not running into a bunch of nemesis ships on the AI HW?

If you reach 150 AIP before getting the champ to destroyer, you only have to face a handful of the nemesis guys.  If you get to cruiser at AIP 10 you have to face substantially more.

[chemical_art]

Not running into a bunch of nemesis ships on the AI HW?

If you reach 150 AIP before getting the champ to destroyer, you only have to face a handful of the nemesis guys.  If you get to cruiser at AIP 10 you have to face substantially more.

The problem is not the end game if I try to cheese and take the enemy HW with just my champions.

The problem is that if I have CSG on, or FS on, there is no disincentive for me to get my cruiser while sitting on 10 aip, then pursueing to go to mid game and start taking worlds.

Nemesis have taken care of the cheese for end game. There is nothing to prevent camping your homeworld to get a cruiser before doing anything else, however, aside from having to launch a few suicide waves to clear up previously built up nemesis. Even then, until you worry about the very very end game, it is of no concern.

[TechSY730]

Agreed. There need to be an incentive to not cheese and "turtle" like this midgame, even if there is such an incentive for the endgame. By the endgame, you can get bored with what was an optimal stragagy so far, even if you have to change it up at that point, meaning only having such incentive appea at endgame is too late.

[Faulty Logic]

Agreed. There need to be an incentive to not cheese and "turtle" like this midgame, even if there is such an incentive for the endgame. By the endgame, you can get bored with what was an optimal stragagy so far, even if you have to change it up at that point, meaning only having such incentive appea at endgame is too late.

The incentive does translate to the midgame, because the goal of the midgame is to build up to the HW attacks. And the nemeses definitely make the HWs substantially harder (I experienced the most extreme: a battleship at 10 AIP, and I would certainly have behaved differently had the mechanic been there at the start of the game).

[TechSY730]

Agreed. There need to be an incentive to not cheese and "turtle" like this midgame, even if there is such an incentive for the endgame. By the endgame, you can get bored with what was an optimal stragagy so far, even if you have to change it up at that point, meaning only having such incentive appea at endgame is too late.

The incentive does translate to the midgame, because the goal of the midgame is to build up to the HW attacks. And the nemeses definitely make the HWs substantially harder (I experienced the most extreme: a battleship at 10 AIP, and I would certainly have behaved differently had the mechanic been there at the start of the game).

Ah, but what is to keep you from just "rushing" towards that top tier at 10 AIP (a long process, which could easily be most of the game) while deliberately steering clear of the AI homeworlds, then proceeding with the game as "normal", but now much more trivially easy now that you have that battleship, just enough that you can then mount that attack on the homeworld. That is still quite a bit of time "stalling" in the "early game", with that token mid-game only there because the champion response would make it that the champion alone would not be enough, and you will need some backup.

[Faulty Logic]

That is precisely what I did. And, come HW attack time, I deeply regretted it. In future games (when not playing FS), I will avoid doing it to have the HWs be less of a nightmare.

[chemical_art]

Ah, but what is to keep you from just "rushing" towards that top tier at 10 AIP (a long process, which could easily be most of the game) while deliberately steering clear of the AI homeworlds, then proceeding with the game as "normal", but now much more trivially easy now that you have that battleship, just enough that you can then mount that attack on the homeworld. That is still quite a bit of time "stalling" in the "early game", with that token mid-game only there because the champion response would make it that the champion alone would not be enough, and you will need some backup.

Hallelujah! Someone gets my concern!

Yes, you cannot stomp the HW alone with the champion. But for example if you plan to do Fallen Spire, what's the disincentive from not getting the shard until you've had your fill of nebulae. FS becomes a joke till at least your first city, and is still easy due to the champion till you are most of the way to the capital.

Those nemesis sure look fiercesome on their homeworld, but between the champion, allies, and capital ships they need one suicidal wave to clear them out.

Which is worth more: The nuisance of one or two suicidal waves in end game or  a full 2/3 of the fallen spire campaign on easy mode.

[I haven't mentioned the impact and extra 20% threat does in relation to FS campaign because that "cost" is there regardless of whether you have a frigate or battleship]

This has nothing to do with something else that comes up: The intense micro needed for nebulae. That is not bad at all (otherwise they would be boring) but I don't want to be juggling intense exo waves across a large empire while being "away" from my empire for 20 minutes at a time. Far, far better to sit on my  turtled HW, where your champ toys prevent any threat from  popping you (even exo waves) so you can pursue nebulae in peace.

[TechSY730]

That is precisely what I did. And, come HW attack time, I deeply regretted it. In future games (when not playing FS), I will avoid doing it to have the HWs be less of a nightmare.

So, the spawning of the response ships happens even if you never visit the homeworld, all that matters is that you complete nebulas (anywhere) at a low AIP? If so, that changes things up some... 

[Toranth]

Ah, but what is to keep you from just "rushing" towards that top tier at 10 AIP (a long process, which could easily be most of the game) while deliberately steering clear of the AI homeworlds, then proceeding with the game as "normal", but now much more trivially easy now that you have that battleship, just enough that you can then mount that attack on the homeworld. That is still quite a bit of time "stalling" in the "early game", with that token mid-game only there because the champion response would make it that the champion alone would not be enough, and you will need some backup.

Hallelujah! Someone gets my concern!

Yes, you cannot stomp the HW alone with the champion. But for example if you plan to do Fallen Spire, what's the disincentive from not getting the shard until you've had your fill of nebulae. FS becomes a joke till at least your first city, and is still easy due to the champion till you are most of the way to the capital.

Those nemesis sure look fiercesome on their homeworld, but between the champion, allies, and capital ships they need one suicidal wave to clear them out.

Which is worth more: The nuisance of one or two suicidal waves in end game or  a full 2/3 of the fallen spire campaign on easy mode.

[I haven't mentioned the impact and extra 20% threat does in relation to FS campaign because that "cost" is there regardless of whether you have a frigate or battleship]

This has nothing to do with something else that comes up: The intense micro needed for nebulae. That is not bad at all (otherwise they would be boring) but I don't want to be juggling intense exo waves across a large empire while being "away" from my empire for 20 minutes at a time. Far, far better to sit on my  turtled HW, where your champ toys prevent any threat from  popping you (even exo waves) so you can pursue nebulae in peace.

I'm not understanding what your concern IS, I'm afraid.  Are you saying that a Champion makes the early parts of Fallen Spire too easy?  Or that suiciding a Spire Capital fleet against the Nemesis kills it too easily?  Really, the endgame Spire fleet is SUPPOSED to be able to stomp the AI.  Not trivially, perhaps, but complaining that the Nemesis fleet can be killed by something designed to WIN THE GAME?

Ignoring the Exo-boost also seems wrong to me, because the Exowaves are the only thing making shard retreival non-trivial to begin with.  The fact that the response is the same regardless of the Champion's hull size does not change the fact that there IS an significantly increased response.  Is it just that you would prefer that instead of a flat 20% upgrade, it was 5% per hull size (or some similar scaled response)?

[Faulty Logic]

That is precisely what I did. And, come HW attack time, I deeply regretted it. In future games (when not playing FS), I will avoid doing it to have the HWs be less of a nightmare.

So, the spawning of the response ships happens even if you never visit the homeworld, all that matters is that you complete nebulas (anywhere) at a low AIP? If so, that changes things up some... 

Yeah. The nemeses appear as you win the nebulae. And each HW starts with 6.

Fallen Spire is a special case. Those games are entirely different, and I would support some kind of nemesis-scaling (proportional to nebulae won/ AIP) in that case. Something small, like a scaled nemesis in every exo. But for a normal game, the system works quite well.

Those nemesis sure look fiercesome on their homeworld, but between the champion, allies, and capital ships they need one suicidal wave to clear them out.

The nemeses would join the already-painful defence fund.

My only present champ-balance concern is for FS campaigns played all the way through (to the Imperial Spire fleet). I think simply calling both nemesis fleets to attack at, say, 10 minutes into the tranceiver timer is all that is needed.

[chemical_art]

I'm not understanding what your concern IS, I'm afraid.  Are you saying that a Champion makes the early parts of Fallen Spire too easy?  Or that suiciding a Spire Capital fleet against the Nemesis kills it too easily?  Really, the endgame Spire fleet is SUPPOSED to be able to stomp the AI.  Not trivially, perhaps, but complaining that the Nemesis fleet can be killed by something designed to WIN THE GAME?

I am saying if you are pursuing fallen spire, there is very very little reason not to go ahead and get your champion do as many nebulae as possible. I simply cannot find a reason not to that doesn't go along the lines of "I'm not patient enough".

Ignoring the Exo-boost also seems wrong to me, because the Exowaves are the only thing making shard retreival non-trivial to begin with.  The fact that the response is the same regardless of the Champion's hull size does not change the fact that there IS an significantly increased response.  Is it just that you would prefer that instead of a flat 20% upgrade, it was 5% per hull size (or some similar scaled response)?

It is relevant. If the exo boost is the only thing that makes it hard, then why wouldn't you want your champ to be super strong? You pay the same price whether you have a frigate or a battleship. Why not go for the battleship first. Your belief that the exo wave cost is non trival reinforces my point.

[TechSY730]

Just as a quick correction. The exo-wave "bonus" the AI gets with champs is no longer 20%. That 20% is only for direct waves and reinforcements. Not sure what that value for exo-waves is now, but it is now <20% (or possibly uses a different way to compute contribution).

[Faulty Logic]

It is relevant. If the exo boost is the only thing that makes it hard, then why wouldn't you want your champ to be super strong? You pay the same price whether you have a frigate or a battleship. Why not go for the battleship first. Your belief that the exo wave cost is non trival reinforces my point.

The point is that, by simply starting FS, there is a heavier absolute caused-by-champion enemy response.

Why is encouraging a strong champion in FS a problem?

[chemical_art]

The nemeses would join the already-painful defence fund.

Since it is end game, it hardly matters how painful it is. If you can take out one nemesis each time, then with enough patience you will wear down the nemesis force if you have 150ish aip when you start. Its no different then launching  a suicidal wave to take out a core guard post or two. If anything, it is easier, since you have to not travel as far since the nemesis come to you.