The AI's response to champions question...

[Cinth]

Battleship

Spire Battleships are also BB

[chemical_art]

AI wars is snazzy enough to have their acronyms mirror the ones in the US naval ones.

FF = Frigate
DD = Destroyer
CC = [Battle] Cruiser
BB = Battleship


These are also referred with the Fallen Spire craft acronyms, but they also include the ambiguous term of Dreadnought (DN), which in the some cases is just a big battleship, in other cases a battleship with only big guns, to all sorts of other things. AI Wars follows the [bigger then a battleship role].

[Cinth]

And don't forget the new CRV, Spire Corvette

Heh, Spire Armada... SS CRV FF DD CA BB DN

[Faulty Logic]

You forgot my favorite spire class: destroyers (DD, between FF and CA), and the SDs after DNs.

[Cinth]

Fixed the DD one... kinda don't know how I missed that one. SD isn't a player controlled class so I left it off.

[Faulty Logic]

I am appeased.

[keith.lamothe]

I thought I actually intentionally avoided CV for Corvette because it would clash with one of the Aircraft Carrier designations.  But I may be confused about the ultimate conclusion I was able to derive from that navy site...

And I use CA for cruiser instead of CC

The DN designation is indeed ambiguous if one tries to derive it from history, so I'm actually using it in the Harrington/Lensman/etc sci-fi sense.  There it means a whole new "displacement" range after BB.  Similar with the Imperial Spire SDN, which you only see at the very end of FS.

Anyway, back to less important matters like game design

I kept the +0.2 modifier for champions because I didn't have time to try to do a full-orbed overhaul of the champion-counter into the nemesis system.  The nemesis stuff is only to prevent the human from assassinating the AI HWs via champions+minions (+ whatever, though I'm not aware of anyone getting supply on the AI HW in order to drop a modfort on its head) without taking any planets or otherwise at least "activating" the AI's response via some significant degree of AIP.

I'm quite happy to add an offensive component to the nemesis concept (I'll leave those particular ships where they are, except for perhaps rebalancing their numbers), the simplest of which I can think of is to just directly reinforce the Threat Fleet, which will come after you wherever it thinks it has a chance.

A more direct counter is to have a separate coherent "anti-champion" fleet that does stuff like camping nebula wormholes with grav, tachyon, forcefield coverage, and a lot of stuff with bonuses vs structural and heavy.  And keeping a rapid-response force to go after the champion whenever it's spotted in AI territory without a big escort.  Making something like that out of a copy of the special forces / threat fleet logic would be pretty easy.  But would you actually want it to do that?  Sounds like it could be a bit frustrating for someone who just wants to cruise around in a hero ship in addition to their AIW game

On the food-metaphor bit: base game + champion + nothing-else should absolutely be fun and balanced, no need to add minor factions.  If it's not there, we need to get it there

[Cinth]

  Yes CV is Aircraft Carrier. How I could ever forget that I dunno.. My ol' man wouldn't let me live that down.

Spire Corvette is CRV in-game.

I was looking for the USN designation for corvette class ships and good grief, they haven't had a ship class that light in some time.

The closest I could find was the Freedom Class and it is designated LCS.

Apparently, the USN hasn't commissioned a Corvette Class since the 22 gun Constellation was refitted into a frigate way back in the day.

So how about a real Spire CV :p

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, I had to look abroad for a navy that builds corvettes today.  I think I got CRV from one of them, or maybe I just made it up.

[keith.lamothe]

So how about a real Spire CV :p

You'll notice the spire are the ones that never get drones   At a philosophical level they aren't ok with the idea of expendable units.  They'll take losses if it's warranted, but they won't build stuff that's basically designed to die.

[Mánagarmr]

I take it Neinzul and Spire don't get together too well.

However, what does that make of Spire Martyrs?

[Cinth]

So how about a real Spire CV :p

You'll notice the spire are the ones that never get drones   At a philosophical level they aren't ok with the idea of expendable units.  They'll take losses if it's warranted, but they won't build stuff that's basically designed to die.

Spire CV, launches SPT.

On topic: I find that I have enough mobility problems getting to some nebula that aren't within a few hops. Try moving out 10-24 hops that are mostly linear and see if getting in the nebula with shields intact and over 98% hp is always possible. Yes I know most nebula can repair the champs and that's fine. Repairing 8 champions just to get started, well, that isn't happening.

[keith.lamothe]

I take it Neinzul and Spire don't get together too well.

The Spire's objection is based on what Spire ships are made of, so the Neinzul don't bother them in that regard.

However, what does that make of Spire Martyrs?

Meddlesome pre-existing facts from the other developer   I could probably make something up to explain it, though.

[LaughingThesaurus]

Wait, what about Spire Rams then?

[chemical_art]

I thought I actually intentionally avoided CV for Corvette because it would clash with one of the Aircraft Carrier designations.  But I may be confused about the ultimate conclusion I was able to derive from that navy site...

And I use CA for cruiser instead of CC

The DN designation is indeed ambiguous if one tries to derive it from history, so I'm actually using it in the Harrington/Lensman/etc sci-fi sense.  There it means a whole new "displacement" range after BB.  Similar with the Imperial Spire SDN, which you only see at the very end of FS.

Anyway, back to less important matters like game design

I kept the +0.2 modifier for champions because I didn't have time to try to do a full-orbed overhaul of the champion-counter into the nemesis system.  The nemesis stuff is only to prevent the human from assassinating the AI HWs via champions+minions (+ whatever, though I'm not aware of anyone getting supply on the AI HW in order to drop a modfort on its head) without taking any planets or otherwise at least "activating" the AI's response via some significant degree of AIP.

I understand why the +0.2 modifier is wanted, but AS is unique in that is it the only option that doesn't add a direct amount of threat, but rather piggybacks on current aip for offense. This serves to limit and not expand strategies, and even gimps another mode directly (Fallen Spire) at an unbelievable level. 20% aip and exo force translates to an unfathomable amount of pain once you get a capital in FS, and it is right now that point the centerpieces to expansions (the player champion and Fallen Spire) are at odds with each other, and I don't think that is the best. Of course this may be desired...

I'm quite happy to add an offensive component to the nemesis concept (I'll leave those particular ships where they are, except for perhaps rebalancing their numbers), the simplest of which I can think of is to just directly reinforce the Threat Fleet, which will come after you wherever it thinks it has a chance.

What I am looking for is a much more offensive ai response, not what is often a generalized and blunt hammer that is threat. If AI threat was a strong enough deterrent, then deepstriking 10 worlds in a single player HW would matter more. Threat is very easy to game on low aip games, and it simply isn't specialized enough to stop the champion. Threat gives a continuous, low level threat that is best removed by occasional cleansing on your borders, and is coincidentally best suited by champion. A champion thrives on removing a trikle of threat continuously, but struggles most against the occasional but very sharp thrust.

A more direct counter is to have a separate coherent "anti-champion" fleet that does stuff like camping nebula wormholes with grav, tachyon, forcefield coverage, and a lot of stuff with bonuses vs structural and heavy.  And keeping a rapid-response force to go after the champion whenever it's spotted in AI territory without a big escort.  Making something like that out of a copy of the special forces / threat fleet logic would be pretty easy.  But would you actually want it to do that?  Sounds like it could be a bit frustrating for someone who just wants to cruise around in a hero ship in addition to their AIW game

That seems more like an active (mobile) defense, not offensive response. It wouldn't serve to stop nebulae, because you could fairly easy game the defense fleets to one half of the galaxy, rewarp the champ home, then do its magic on the other half of the galaxy. And even if it takes 5 times to get to the nebula, then thats all that is necessary since you only need it to get there once. I'm not looking to delay the movement of enemy fleets, but actually threaten the bases of said fleets.

On the food-metaphor bit: base game + champion + nothing-else should absolutely be fun and balanced, no need to add minor factions.  If it's not there, we need to get it there