Author Topic: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities  (Read 17571 times)

Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2011, 08:59:04 pm »
Hahaha.  Reminds me of the anecdote where some dev team working on a tactical squad combat game wound up giving all the cows unloaded pistols so they wouldn't attack "the other team", run away, or shoot.

Completely unrelated, but this reminded me of an anecdote (which may be apocryphal for all I know) about an RPG developer who wanted to make the wildlife in their world more active and more fitting in the RPG conventions, so they allowed them to randomly attack other wildlife and also let them level up as they got more kills. The end result was a rabbit that would one-shot any player that came into its range.  :D

Back on topic,

I like the idea of them doing engine attrition damage. Maybe they could do something like 1% of a ship's total engine health every 3 seconds or something. That way after 2 min ships would be at 60% engine health. It might be overpowered for ships with large engine health but then again it may not be useful at all. Or maybe it does 1% engine damage every second but is limited by how low it can take it, like the riot starship.

Even if you do something like this, you've still not solved the original problem. If they take two minutes to get rid of 60% engine health, the result is that after 30 seconds the attritioner has already died because everything on the planet came to kill it. (Or you brought in your fleet along with it, and they have killed everything that just came after your attritioner, so engine damage becomes moot.)

It all comes back to that, no matter whether they do engine damage, or attrition damage, or reclamation damage, or just tickle the AI and call it bad names, as long as they do something to every ship on the planet, then every ship on the planet is going to close in for the kill.

I don't know, maybe the attrition damage should be beefed up so you can at least take a substantial chunk out of the baddies before you're forced to run. I mean, let me pull some numbers... OK back. A Mk V Attritioner, top of the line, does 1,500 attrition damage per second. A lowly Mk II Bomber has 308,000 HP. So that's 205 seconds before you can take that bomber down to 0. Roughly 3 1/2 minutes. Almost pointless. In a real game scenario, you'd be quite lucky to get even 30 seconds of attrition damage before you have to pull out of the planet or deal with that bomber in some other way like by blowing it up with your fleet. In that time, you've done 45,000 damage. Hardly enough to matter. A single shot from a Mk I fighter on a Bomber II after hull bonuses does 21,600 damage and it can do that every 4 seconds (assuming I got the armor calc right. It comes out after the hull multiplier?)

And yes, I know it's doing this to every unit across the whole world, so that damage number seems a lot more impressive when you're hitting a world with 500 ships on it and doing 750,000 damage per second. But again, that still means you have 500 ships to deal with (which after the first pulse are ALL angry at you), so it pretty well balances out in the AI's favor I feel. This is probably all obvious and the whole reason this subject came up in the first place, but I still like to nerd out and get real numbers into the discussion when I can.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2011, 09:04:11 pm »
Asymptotic* damage sucks. You've nerfed  electric shuttles, just do it for attritioners too!

5x the damage but max number of targets equals 50 x mk lvl

many problems solved. But I have no idea if the code allows that.**


*Generic made up math term for things that start tiny but have the potential to go toward infinity

**If the code doesn't you could just make them giant electric shuttles which is vaguely similar to attritioning but on a smaller scale.
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« Last Edit: September 13, 2011, 09:10:00 pm by chemical_art »
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2011, 09:07:26 pm »
Asymptotic* damage sucks. You've nerfed  electric shuttles, just do it for attritioners too!

5x the damage but max number of targets equals 50 x mk lvl

many problems solved. But I have no idea if the code allows that.


*Generic made up math term for things that start tiny but have the potential to go toward infinity
It would require changing it from using the attrition mechanic (where the other ships actually check for the attritioners on the planet and apply the damage to themselves) to something like the electric shuttle but without the range check (where the firing ship checks every other ship on the planet whenever it fires).  But possible.  Thematically desirable?  Dunno.

And I use asymptotic that way too.  Anyone who tells me that's a butchery of the terminology is being asymptotically mean (and probably correct).
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2011, 09:13:04 pm »
Many of the complaints about the attritioners is that they cannot do enough damage to craft before the whole planet is alerted and gunning for them.

You don't want to increase the damage too much because you don't want to crush whole waves from it. If you can maximize the number of targets then the result is that you can much more finely control damage and thus boost it a lot. You also can prevent whole planets from always being alerted.

It seems to knock out two birds with one stone.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2011, 09:19:00 pm »
Many of the complaints about the attritioners is that they cannot do enough damage to craft before the whole planet is alerted and gunning for them.

You don't want to increase the damage too much because you don't want to crush whole waves from it. If you can maximize the number of targets then the result is that you can much more finely control damage and thus boost it a lot. You also can prevent whole planets from always being alerted.

It seems to knock out two birds with one stone.
Yea, though I probably can't get away with renaming it the "Electric AT&T Shuttle: Reach Out and Crush Someone".

But mechanically I'd much rather go with that idea, but we'd need to rename it to something else since it wouldn't be attrition in the in-game sense of that word at all after that.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2011, 09:25:37 pm »
I'm not sure what the final numbers will be, but in the games I play, 60 ships is nothing. I would much rather have it the way it is now and have it be a "defend the caravan," as well as the ability to retreat and stack force fields. In a way, it's like having the "taunt" ability from RPG's. I don't want another shuttle.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2011, 09:27:38 pm »
I don't want another shuttle.
I agree.  Having an infinite range shuttle would be fun, but having an attrition unit that's actually useful (in the opinion of more than a few players, at least) would be more fun.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2011, 09:29:30 pm »
It seems like we are at another Spirecraft Shield bearer type situation. Is a dedicated attrition unit (aka, no other fancy abilities, attrition only) impossible to balance for both offense and defense?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2011, 09:31:14 pm »
It seems like we are at another Spirecraft Shield bearer type situation. Is a dedicated attrition unit (aka, no other fancy abilities, attrition only) impossible to balance for both offense and defense?
It's impossible to balance for human use on either offense or defense, actually.  The point below which it doesn't give too much power is almost certainly way below the point above which people would actually feel it was worth spending asteroids on.
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Offline Nalgas

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Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2011, 10:32:46 pm »
And I use asymptotic that way too.  Anyone who tells me that's a butchery of the terminology is being asymptotically mean (and probably correct).

The math nerd in me dies a little bit every time I see/hear something like that.  That usage is butchering it so much that it's not even wrong.  It's only even tangentially related to the correct one.  I guess I'll just have to learn to live with being a meanie somehow.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2011, 10:34:34 pm »
And I use asymptotic that way too.  Anyone who tells me that's a butchery of the terminology is being asymptotically mean (and probably correct).

The math nerd in me dies a little bit every time I see/hear something like that.  That usage is butchering it so much that it's not even wrong.  It's only even tangentially related to the correct one.  I guess I'll just have to learn to live with being a meanie somehow.
Well, eventually I'll use it enough that the math nerd in you will die off and everything will be fine, right?  Or is more of a half-life thing?
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Offline c4sc4

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Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2011, 10:36:15 pm »

,

I like the idea of them doing engine attrition damage. Maybe they could do something like 1% of a ship's total engine health every 3 seconds or something. That way after 2 min ships would be at 60% engine health. It might be overpowered for ships with large engine health but then again it may not be useful at all. Or maybe it does 1% engine damage every second but is limited by how low it can take it, like the riot starship.

Even if you do something like this, you've still not solved the original problem. If they take two minutes to get rid of 60% engine health, the result is that after 30 seconds the attritioner has already died because everything on the planet came to kill it. (Or you brought in your fleet along with it, and they have killed everything that just came after your attritioner, so engine damage becomes moot.)

Ah, I was thinking about using them as a defensive unit not offensively. I think my idea would be more useful in a defensive situation.

Offline Nalgas

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Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2011, 10:51:51 pm »
And I use asymptotic that way too.  Anyone who tells me that's a butchery of the terminology is being asymptotically mean (and probably correct).

The math nerd in me dies a little bit every time I see/hear something like that.  That usage is butchering it so much that it's not even wrong.  It's only even tangentially related to the correct one.  I guess I'll just have to learn to live with being a meanie somehow.

Well, eventually I'll use it enough that the math nerd in you will die off and everything will be fine, right?  Or is more of a half-life thing?

I have some bad news for you if you're planning on using that tactic: I think it may do reclamation damage.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2011, 10:54:16 pm »
I have some bad news for you if you're planning on using that tactic: I think it may do reclamation damage.
Zombie reclamation damage?
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Offline zebramatt

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Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2011, 04:48:32 am »
I'm becoming increasingly convinced they're fine as-is.

They just need a reason to exist (offensively), right?

So why not make one of the hull types particularly susceptible to attrition damage in general? Say, twice as vulnerable. Or thrice even.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 03:00:33 pm by zebramatt »