So, what's standing between the current version and something official-ready?

[Faulty Logic]

I think we need to dig up this thread and apply some of it only in the presence of champions.

[Hearteater]

If the nemesis can stop all this, what else can the player get in the base game to overcome it?

At least in my suggested version it doesn't matter, because the Homeworld Nemisis only exists if you have one or more champions in play.  So it can be balanced to directly challenge the Champions in play without affecting games that aren't using Champions.

[chemical_art]

If the nemesis can stop all this, what else can the player get in the base game to overcome it?

At least in my suggested version it doesn't matter, because the Homeworld Nemisis only exists if you have one or more champions in play.  So it can be balanced to directly challenge the Champions in play without affecting games that aren't using Champions.

But what I am driving out is that unless another super weapon, like golems, spirecraft, or FS is used the base player fleet is relatively not that much more powerful. The whole basic fleet, 5 ars and MK II and III's and all, comes out not dramatically overpowering just the champion and the starships you get. So if the nemesis can stop the starships and the champion, it can probably stop anything but an all assault of the player if they used their whole fleet (if they had no other super weapons.)

In addition, to make things really clear, what if the player has 4 champions? If you make the nemesis 4x stronger to compensate, the point gets much more clear. There is no way a defense that can stop the 4 BB and 70 starships but be able to fall without another super weapon.

For that reason, I feel that there has to be some way to knock out these defenses aside from direct combat with them, in this case working like CSGs and having to take certain worlds (that if you had CSG on you would need to take anyway). That way they accomplish the goal of encouraging players to take worlds, but its not 100% required to take 100% of the structures unlike CSG's.

[keith.lamothe]

There may be a simpler approach to making the defense-nemesis prevent the player from winning with just the champion and minions, without making a near-stalemate inevitable for no-superweapons-other-than-champions game: make the defense-nemesis intensity decrease as AIP goes up.

Specifically, +AIP wouldn't remove any nemesis units but it would cut down the amount that it respawns up to.  So maybe if AIP < 30, then you get the max, from 30 to <50 you get 80%, the normal, from 50 to <70 you get 60%, and so on, until only one nemesis respawns after a wipe.  Or perhaps the amount of nemesis spawns is similar but the "recharge time" goes up as AIP goes up and (in theory) the AI is putting its resources more into the strategic reserve, special forces, waves, etc.

That way, if you want, you can build a huge champion, and then get AIP up enough to divert the AI's forces away from its champion-counter, and then kill it with the champion, but in the meantime you've had to deal with a real AI response instead of just the 10-AIP (or so) level.

Thoughts?

[Dichotomy]

Sounds like it should elegantly address the problem.

[keith.lamothe]

Sounds like it should elegantly address the problem.

Which is when I get worried.  Like when code changes work the first time.

[Faulty Logic]

Sounds like it should elegantly address the problem.

Agreed.

[chemical_art]

Put the right kind of window dressing to explain away this unusual ai behavior and you got it.

[keith.lamothe]

Put the right kind of window dressing to explain away this unusual ai behavior and you got it.

Early on, it concentratres its extra "milky way defense budget" into reinforcing its "counter that strange shadow stuff sub-budget".  Once the humans give it more to worry about, there's less to go around.

[Cinth]

There may be a simpler approach to making the defense-nemesis prevent the player from winning with just the champion and minions, without making a near-stalemate inevitable for no-superweapons-other-than-champions game: make the defense-nemesis intensity decrease as AIP goes up.

Specifically, +AIP wouldn't remove any nemesis units but it would cut down the amount that it respawns up to.  So maybe if AIP < 30, then you get the max, from 30 to <50 you get 80%, the normal, from 50 to <70 you get 60%, and so on, until only one nemesis respawns after a wipe.  Or perhaps the amount of nemesis spawns is similar but the "recharge time" goes up as AIP goes up and (in theory) the AI is putting its resources more into the strategic reserve, special forces, waves, etc.

That way, if you want, you can build a huge champion, and then get AIP up enough to divert the AI's forces away from its champion-counter, and then kill it with the champion, but in the meantime you've had to deal with a real AI response instead of just the 10-AIP (or so) level.

Thoughts?

Sounds good. Doesn't seem like it would hurt a high AIP game any more than the high AIP already does 

[Winge]

There may be a simpler approach to making the defense-nemesis prevent the player from winning with just the champion and minions, without making a near-stalemate inevitable for no-superweapons-other-than-champions game: make the defense-nemesis intensity decrease as AIP goes up.

Specifically, +AIP wouldn't remove any nemesis units but it would cut down the amount that it respawns up to.  So maybe if AIP < 30, then you get the max, from 30 to <50 you get 80%, the normal, from 50 to <70 you get 60%, and so on, until only one nemesis respawns after a wipe.  Or perhaps the amount of nemesis spawns is similar but the "recharge time" goes up as AIP goes up and (in theory) the AI is putting its resources more into the strategic reserve, special forces, waves, etc.

That way, if you want, you can build a huge champion, and then get AIP up enough to divert the AI's forces away from its champion-counter, and then kill it with the champion, but in the meantime you've had to deal with a real AI response instead of just the 10-AIP (or so) level.

Thoughts?

Will there be a champion-hull based modifier as well?  I think most people agree that a Frigate/Destroyer at low AIP isn't the problem, but rather a Cruiser/Battleship...

[Toranth]

There may be a simpler approach to making the defense-nemesis prevent the player from winning with just the champion and minions, without making a near-stalemate inevitable for no-superweapons-other-than-champions game: make the defense-nemesis intensity decrease as AIP goes up.

Specifically, +AIP wouldn't remove any nemesis units but it would cut down the amount that it respawns up to.  So maybe if AIP < 30, then you get the max, from 30 to <50 you get 80%, the normal, from 50 to <70 you get 60%, and so on, until only one nemesis respawns after a wipe.  Or perhaps the amount of nemesis spawns is similar but the "recharge time" goes up as AIP goes up and (in theory) the AI is putting its resources more into the strategic reserve, special forces, waves, etc.

That way, if you want, you can build a huge champion, and then get AIP up enough to divert the AI's forces away from its champion-counter, and then kill it with the champion, but in the meantime you've had to deal with a real AI response instead of just the 10-AIP (or so) level.

Thoughts?

Unfortunately, I can think of a cheese already.  Multiple Champions attack the HW, and bee-line straight for the Core Guardposts, ignoring the Nemesis.  Rinse, repeat, then target the Home Command Station.

Would it be possible to have something on the Homeworld that heavily damaged only Champions?  Like the Counter Spy does for ships with Cloaking (even if they aren't cloaked).  Give it a (X - AIP) multiplier on a low base damage that ignores shields and fires often.  Or (X>AIP)?(X-AIP)^2:0; or something dramatic like that.  In other words, instant kill (through damage) at low AIP, but by 100 or 150 AIP, you can (mostly) ignore it.  It would also not impact the base game part, because it would be unable to shoot at normal fleetships and the like.


By the way, doesn't that sound like a fun bonus ship type/module?  AIP based firepower.  "If I destroy this command station, I'll get 20 AIP, and the waves will get 17% tougher.  But that means my guns will do 15% more damage... is it really worth it?"

[chemical_art]

Multiple champions would have multiple nemesis. If you attacked with 3 you'd have 3 times as many to contend with.

[LaughingThesaurus]

I really like that idea for a bonus ship, no input on the champion balancing thing but... That'd be fun, and you could even justify it by saying...
...actually, how do you make the enemy's perception of you as a threat into a weapon? Draws powers from the AI's silent communication with itself?

[Toranth]

I really like that idea for a bonus ship, no input on the champion balancing thing but... That'd be fun, and you could even justify it by saying...
...actually, how do you make the enemy's perception of you as a threat into a weapon? Draws powers from the AI's silent communication with itself?

Whenever you pull the trigger, it says things like "This statement is false!" or "What's the last digit of pi?"

Or, yeah, it draws power from the AI's Warp Grid, so the more power the AI has in the galaxy, to more damage it does.
Or *hands waves* Magic!