Author Topic: So, what's standing between the current version and something official-ready?  (Read 9226 times)

Offline Toranth

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Good point, on many maps that would be prohibitive. I propose:

The champion has a nemesis: a ship of equal hull strength that continually goes to your champion and tries to kill it (could not enter nebulae, when your champ is away, the nemisis attacks the HW). The nemesis has no abilities and respawns at an AI Homeworld if killed.

You must take one planet per hull size, so:
Nebula 2 inaccessible until you take one planet.
Nebula 5 inaccessible until you take another planet.
Nebula 9 inaccessible until you take a third planet.
Do not like.
Try this in difficulty 9+.  The AI gets so much stronger from Champions that the AIP increase from taking a planet, without the benefits (Modular fortresses, K, energy/resources), can spell death.  But doing the nebula without taking planets, I can get enough stuff to build defenses capable of holding off the waves that'll come when the AIP jumps to 100.
Unless you're doing 10HW, 1 Champion... then no one would notice the Champion anyway.

On Diff 10, you can still be at 10 AIP and face 2,000 or more ships in wave.  If the AIP went up to 30, that'd be 3 times the wave size.  Frigates?  They'll not even be a bump in the wave's path.

Offline Faulty Logic

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Try this in difficulty 9+.
I play on 10/10, and based my suggestion off of that (the planet one).

Quote
On Diff 10, you can still be at 10 AIP and face 2,000 or more ships in wave.
About 400 triangle ships is the max I have seen; 2,000 would be swarmer ships.

With 2 DC raids, you can do four nebulae at 10 AIP. By the time you absolutely have to increase the AIFloor, you will have at least one modular fortress.

One further clarification: failed nebulae would not count toward this.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Are you having to go into deepstrike range to reach some of those nebula to get BBs before increasing AIP over 10?

I'm leaning towards a time requirement (scenario X won't spawn until hour X-1, probably) because part of the point is to interleave the champion's exploits with normal gameplay, not just frontload it all.
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Offline Eternaly_Lost

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Are you having to go into deepstrike range to reach some of those nebula to get BBs before increasing AIP over 10?

I'm leaning towards a time requirement (scenario X won't spawn until hour X-1, probably) because part of the point is to interleave the champion's exploits with normal gameplay, not just frontload it all.

If you are going to link it to something, link it to worlds owned rather then time spent. All you do with saying you need to wait until hour x-1 to do scenario x is going to bring back Hulu into the game, as people wait around for time to pass to start doing something with those ships again. I like how they are, and depending on the map type, I very much can get the first 4 done in the first 2 hours or so, but the next 4 are much longer to as I take planets. If I had to wait three hours, I just start the game, set up defences so that the AI can't get in and hit the speed at +10 for a few hours of in game time so that I when I start to move I can take those planets.

Meaning that the Champions would be causing the very thing you designed them to break. Wall time with nothing special happens.

Offline Faulty Logic

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I vehemently oppose making it time-based. The champion is there to make it so the player always has something to do. And establishing defences for your homeworld is expensive (and mandatory at high difficulty).
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline chemical_art

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Time won't stop the nebulas, it'll just drag on the early game.

Aside from a CPA, there is no threat to threaten a HW in a minor factionless game when AIP is less then 20. So time is just an annoyance.
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Offline Dichotomy

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Hi everyone! Love AIWar, Arcen is awesome, et cetera.
I joined because apparently, the devs respond to user input here. Well, here is mine: don't restrict nebula access based on time. Please.
You are all insane. In. Sane. No argument.

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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I vote for basing it on planets or AIP rather than time. If the game has to get harder for the player to get cool stuff, that should help quite a lot shouldn't it?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Ok, not basing it on time, I get the picture ;)
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Offline Dichotomy

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Good point, on many maps that would be prohibitive. I propose:

The champion has a nemesis: a ship of equal hull strength that continually goes to your champion and tries to kill it (could not enter nebulae, when your champ is away, the nemisis attacks the HW). The nemesis has no abilities and respawns at an AI Homeworld if killed.

You must take one planet per hull size, so:
Nebula 2 inaccessible until you take one planet.
Nebula 5 inaccessible until you take another planet.
Nebula 9 inaccessible until you take a third planet.
I don't think the first solution would be good. Sounds like it would be either really, really annoying or trivial to deal with.

I like the second, though.
You are all insane. In. Sane. No argument.

Offline Faulty Logic

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Welcome to the forums!
(not just saying it because you agree with me)
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline Toranth

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Try this in difficulty 9+.
I play on 10/10, and based my suggestion off of that (the planet one).

Quote
On Diff 10, you can still be at 10 AIP and face 2,000 or more ships in wave.
About 400 triangle ships is the max I have seen; 2,000 would be swarmer ships.

With 2 DC raids, you can do four nebulae at 10 AIP. By the time you absolutely have to increase the AIFloor, you will have at least one modular fortress.

One further clarification: failed nebulae would not count toward this.
The 2,000 ships was fighters; however the game is a 10/10, 2HW, 8 Champion game. 

The nebula in that game are poorly distributed for me; of 12, 9 are 9 or more hops from my homeworlds.  2 minutes of deepstrike produces close to 2000 threat anyway, meaning I am most certainly paying a price for attempting those nebula.  So, because of distribution, I am already forced to either pop worlds, or rack up lots of threat.  While similar to your proposal, it means I am in control of the punishment I get for trying the nebula, rather than the reverse.

As for the AIP being handled by AIP reducers, remember that you cannot rely on those.  I just finished a 9/9 game that had only 3 Data Centers on the entire 120 system map.  One of the Co-Processors was on an AI Homeworld (with Core Raid Engine, of course).  Finding 2 DCs early in those circumstances?  Way too hard to rely on.

Next, what do you do if you don't unlock a modular fortress in your first 2/4 nebula?  As is, that's not too unusual.  Fine under moderate difficulties, doom at Diff 10.

Overall, I think your suggestion simply gives too high a chance of the RNG saying 'gg', no matter what you do.  So, I'd prefer something a little less drastic.

An additional question - Are you suggesting that the human player must control 1/2/3 non-HW planets?  Or merely destroy that many AI command stations?  What would happen if the player lost a planet while the nebula was ongoing?  If all you had to do was destroy an AI Command Station, then I'd be less opposed.



Really, if there's a need to limit access to the nebula, I'd prefer that it be something that the player does to trigger it.  Taking a planet is bad (in my mind) because of the extreme AIP punishment at high difficulties, but other than that I do like the idea of triggering nebula.  Fallen Spire manages to handle the first few stages in an exciting manner without either (major) time or AIP costs... not sure how to replace shard retreival, though. 
Have the ability to manufacture something that reveals the next nebula?  Cost starts out low, but increases as you win more nebula.  Combine with a 'drive calibration' timer to force a minimum delay, maybe.  (Make the facility a perma-cloak invulnerable object, to mark where the Shadow ships spawn.  Didn't the lore say something about a 'beacon' at the home command center?)



edit:  I keep forgetting, since I don't do multiplayer, but should probably keep in mind that for some players, the Champion may be their only ship.  Forcing them to wait around for other things to happen may not be a good idea.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 11:04:41 pm by Toranth »

Offline keith.lamothe

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@Dichotomy: welcome to the forums :)

@Toranth: yea, I'm wondering if the "you can do all the scenarios before playing the rest of the game" is really something that needs to be addressed for 6.0, because no solutions seem likely to be a net-gain.  Sure, that one thing (which would generally be an issue for power-gamers, rather than everyone) can be solved, but at what cost to the general experience?

But if there is something that can be done to address it without hurting something else more, I'm listening.
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Offline chemical_art

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Can you influence deep strikes on specific units?

If you could, and  were to make deepstrikes exponentially greater for champion caused ones, that could help a lot.
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Offline TechSY730

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All this nebula "pacing controls" is interesting and all, and may help solve making some champion games trivial if the RNG gives you the "good stuff" early on and close by, and you keep AIP low, but is this really needed for 6.0 (aka, would you not consider a release worthy to be called "stable" and "complete" without this)? Especially given that 6.0 is due in, what, a week?

In any case, can the conversation move to a new thread? It is getting to be a sufficiently complicated topic to merit it.

Can you influence deep strikes on specific units?

If you could, and  were to make deepstrikes exponentially greater for champion caused ones, that could help a lot.

That's one idea I was thinking of too, and I would support it too. (I will put more details and ideas on a new thread if one is deemed needed)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 11:16:23 pm by TechSY730 »