So, what's standing between the current version and something official-ready?

[chemical_art]

Remember that there is more then just the champion.

The average nebula completetion yields additional M + C and energy. Averaging around 50 M + C and 50k energy.

So for the DD with it comes with 100 M + C and 100k energy for 15 aip.

The CA is 250 M + C and 250k energy for 30 aip.

The BB is even higher due to multiple bases (I had 14) that is  over 700 M + C and 700k energy for 55 aip.

There is also the 7 ships of starship power per nebula. And most importantly, the ai cannot counter these in any way aside from the aip cost.

[Faulty Logic]

I know how powerful the champion and its minions from the nebulae can be, and how much economic boost the bases can provide, but it would not be worth it in the face of 55 AIP. That is more than a nuke.

But the most important part of capturing a planet for me is the removal of its core shield generator.

[chemical_art]

I guess it varies then.

For me, 98 starships, 700k energy, 700 M + C, and a champion that is stronger then spirecraft and free and infinitive is a steal at 55 aip. Especially since you can never lose any of these benefits.

[LaughingThesaurus]

Well like, what if it was as simple as enduring more intense attacks based on how many and how strong the champions are? Like, special champion-counter-waves like other super weapons have exo waves that come in. At frigate, the effect is minimal, and everything of a higher hull size increases the intensity of these attacks, without anything else based on AIP happening.

[chemical_art]

Could work, but logic is tricky.

You'd have to make the logic so it devastates a single world but not mult worlds so badly.

Once you are in BB range you can have three super forts, caps of all your turrets, caps of all your units and maybe need one matter coverter to pay for all of it.

I worry that if you can make a wave to counter all that, it would devastate a multi planet game even worst. Which in effect dosn't discourage the the reason for the correction: to make the planet hurt if they take less then 2 or 3 worlds.

The more I think, the more I think problems happen is that the champion and its nebula benefits equates to being the only weapon that doesn't cause a flat aip increase.

Golems? Yes.
Spirecraft? Yes.
ARS? Yes.
Fallen spire? Yes.
Champion? No.

[Faulty Logic]

Golems easy or hard, spirecraft, and FS don't have a flat AIP increase. Sure you may take some AIP to capture a golem, but the main response is exos. Same for Fallen Spire, but more so. And spirecraft have no AIP impact at all (they can be mined from deep space).

[keith.lamothe]

Ok, I don't really like the +AIP approach either.

Using the heroic-AI logic and the galaxy-wide-chase logic it wouldn't be too hard to have it periodically spawn a matching champion(s) (in hull size, not modules, those would be randomized) to go after the player's champion(s).  The issues I can think of are:
- what to do when the player champion is in a nebula
- what to do when it dies dies (since it's not there for a bit, and gets a new object number when it respawns)
- how much / how often to do these counter-spawns, taking into account that the champion is not all the human gets

For the dying-case, the default existing logic is for the nemesis to go free-threat, which may or may not be a problem.  I could also have it retarget some irreplaceable on the human side, though I'm not sure how much folks will appreciate more stuff specifically targeting their satellite advanced factories  

For the puny-human-hiding-in-nebula case, I'd have to add to the logic somehow.  The galaxy-wide-chase logic is not designed with inaccessible planets in mind.  Of course, I could just give the nemesis champions the ability to enter nebulae, but the sheer timing-dependent havoc that would cause on balance is, while amusing, a bit much   The alternative is to have it pick a different target for chase, or just go free-threat.

And in general having the thing pick a different target doesn't seem like such a bad idea, as killing the human champion isn't really a big gain since it just respawns.

Anyway, thoughts?

[LaughingThesaurus]

I'm behind the nemesis idea kind of, now that you've put it that way. Outside of it killing your ship, which like you said doesn't really do much, it'll spend its time attacking your stuff that might possibly be harder to rebuild. It basically functions like that extra attack force but with different priorities. I think the period is going to have to be the real game-changer. If it's too often, then it just won't be fun and champion-only players can't be too independent. If it's not often enough, well, then it may as well not be there at all.

[chemical_art]

Golems easy or hard, spirecraft, and FS don't have a flat AIP increase. Sure you may take some AIP to capture a golem, but the main response is exos. Same for Fallen Spire, but more so. And spirecraft have no AIP impact at all (they can be mined from deep space).

The point remains there is a aip increase, so you cannot get them while having 15 aip. Getting three golems would cost less aip then the one BB, and in the process you got a jump in resources, energy, defenses, and ships. Golems and spirecraft  cost resources and energy, so you cannot support more then one or two golems or a dozen spirecraft on your first planet.



This nemesis idea is cool, but it isn't hindering the reason why I wanted the reason why I suggested changing the mechanic to begin with, it is encouraging it. Having it "threaten player stuff" doesn't mean much when all the benefits sans champions are 100% protected. Having it smash other irreplaceables means I shouldn't get them to begin with since I won't need them. I can't defensively get much snugger then 3 mega forts and caps of all the mk I turrets (eventually)

As long as I can sit in my single homeworld and be able to launch offensives that can slay the ai command center at 10 aip, there is a problem. Opinion of course, and not counting the +2 core guard posts.

[Hearteater]

Why not just make an AI "Nemesis" Champion ship(s) that defend the AI Homeworlds only.  They can be much stronger than the human Champion because by the time you are taking the AI Homeworlds you will have a whole fleet plus Champion(s) to do it.  But if you try and rush down the AI Homeworld, you'll find yourself outgunned.  Since they never leave the homeworlds, you don't need to worry about them stomping the player because they are too strong.

For example, say the AI got 4 Champion ships for each player Champion, at the same hull size as the best human hull size unlocked, at each homeworld.

Note, this is just to prevent the "rush AI homeworlds with just Champions" strat.  There should probably be some other increase to account for the player Champion's power.

Random semi-related CSG thought: I don't really know why they should, but maybe CSGs should get a Champion ship defender (1 per human Champion per CSG).  Seems the kind of thing the AI would defend a bit better.  Oh, I just thought of a good reason to do this: why not?

[keith.lamothe]

Why not just make an AI "Nemesis" Champion ship(s) that defend the AI Homeworlds only.  They can be much stronger than the human Champion because by the time you are taking the AI Homeworlds you will have a whole fleet plus Champion(s) to do it.  But if you try and rush down the AI Homeworld, you'll find yourself outgunned.  Since they never leave the homeworlds, you don't need to worry about them stomping the player because they are too strong.

Yea, was thinking of something like that too.  Using the new "never leave your planet" strategic reserve logic this would be pretty easy; I'd just change it to never reabsorb the nemesis.

Would it make sense for the nemesis ships to respawn if killed?  I'm wondering if not having that would just make it take multiple passes with a player champion to chip away that extra bit of resistance.

Random semi-related CSG thought: I don't really know why they should, but maybe CSGs should get a Champion ship defender (1 per human Champion per CSG).  Seems the kind of thing the AI would defend a bit better.  Oh, I just thought of a good reason to do this: why not?

The DM in me likes that, and it wouldn't be much more effort with the above already done, but I'm not sure if folks would want that.

[Wanderer]

Random semi-related CSG thought: I don't really know why they should, but maybe CSGs should get a Champion ship defender (1 per human Champion per CSG).  Seems the kind of thing the AI would defend a bit better.  Oh, I just thought of a good reason to do this: why not?

The DM in me likes that, and it wouldn't be much more effort with the above already done, but I'm not sure if folks would want that.

Isn't part of the discussion here the fact that CSGs are skippable as a primary concern?

[Volatar]

Would it make sense for the nemesis ships to respawn if killed?  I'm wondering if not having that would just make it take multiple passes with a player champion to chip away that extra bit of resistance.

Gotta put the respawn on a timer if you do.

Alternatively let the thing heal between attacks if not killed off.

Alternatively all of the above. 

[Hearteater]

On HW Nemesis: Yes to respawn, especially if you can give it a reasonable respawn timer.  10-20 minutes maybe?

On CSG Nemesis: Yeah, DM in me liked it too .  They'd only be on if Champions were, and unlike the Homeworld Nemisis I'd envision an even fight really, and probably no respawning (or at least 30-60 minute respawn timer).  Another interetsing thing would be if the CSG Nemisis only appeared when you got your Champion to a certain level/hull size.  So basically, if you run all Nebula first, you have to deal with Nemisis Champs on each CSG.  If you do all the CSG first, you don't need to worry about Nemisis Champs there, but your own Champion is really weak.  So a nice middle-ground gives you some without, and some with.

[chemical_art]

I like the defense Nemesis idea better. The idea of it more directly attempts to prevent the single HW blitz.

What I wonder though, is how to implement it.

Imagine the end the of the nebula campagin the offensive tools you get:

-A champion that is in combat almost a mini golem. Respawns instantly.
-If you do OK and not good on the nebulae you get at least 10 stations. I had 14 but we'll go with 10.
--You get (7 * 10) starships, a whopping 70 starships.

So the nemesis, if it wanted to stop a HW blitz, needs to stop the BB and the 70 starships. My question is this:

If the nemesis can stop all this, what else can the player get in the base game to overcome it? If you took 5 ars worlds you'd get around an additional 1000 fleetships or so. That is significant, yes. But would it be enough to stop the nemsis? Does the power of 1000 fleetships make that much more of a difference when you have something that can stop a mini-golem and more starships then you could hope to field on your own? You'd have to do an all out assault to knock out the ai, and the brutal picks on the table today will devastate such a tactic.

What I am trying to say is that such a tactic will make it so all HW assualts will be a slugfest where you must attempt to smash the ai with the largest hammer ever in order to hopefully defeat a shield that can can stop what is your already large hammer.

Timers or no, such an all out assault would take over an hour to recover from. Even just replacing the 70 starships takes over one half hour for me, and that is fine, but if the thing they were trying to stop has respawned...its just a stalemeate.

However! I do like the idea. I just think there needs to be an additional feature to make it work. How about this:

Make it so you have several Nemesis on the AI HW. 6 actually or so. Each one can't take on the BB and its fleet, but 2 is a costly fight, and 3 drastically, does so, and 4 and above is for cheese masters. Each of these nemesis, however, require a "respawn supply structure" that is spawned similar to CSG logic but is an independent building.

In practice, what this means is if you try to take the HW without taking some of those respawners, then you will struggle to knock out any of the nemesis, and the ones you do come back. However, if you were to knock out most of them, then after their defeat most would not come back. You would have one resupply structure on the AI HW itself so one will always remain, but one is not enough to stop the fleet but be a continuous nuisance as it respawns.

This would enable to accomplish the goal of preventing a single HW blitz, but with the added layer if you pursue the alternative of taking key worlds (they are key, since they are using the ars layer of CSG's) then you get the benefit of also knocking out the AI worlds defenses.

This I feel would accomplish the desired goals even more strongly, and not be quite as a knight of trying to balance the defense that needs to stop an super mighty single world offense but still be able to fall to an only slightly larger offense.