So, MkII transports

[TechSY730]

How about by quantity of combat ships within (to prevent the Ultra Spire Dreadnaught of Doom Transport when playing FS).  All of a sudden, people will want swarmer ships!

Which is pretty much exactly what happens with AI carriers, which is why swarmer ships in AI hands can be scary. (More frequent carriers with higher average ships transported counts thus giving higher average DPS)

[contingencyplan]

As a quick question, are regular transports cloaker-immune? It doesn't say so, but my cloaker starships aren't cloaking them.

Edit: Weeeeird. When I sent the cloakers + transports through the wormhole, the cloakers weren't working and apparently got killed (no Tach units on the planet at all, no mines either), but reloading the save, they're working properly. Hurray for possible Heisenbugs!

[Vyndicu]

Aren't the spire ships also really massive? Fallen Spire ships probably shouldn't even fit inside of transports in the first place.

In the current version THEY do fit in transport. I know this for sure. Why? I often lose spire frigate to devourer golem just sitting on the defense line while I am not paying attention to them cause I have a crisis somewhere else.

So my solution was to keep ALL FS ships inside transport since they are one-shot immune until I need them out.

@Contingencyplan

No they are not cloaking immune that I am aware of.

[Radiant Phoenix]

Aren't the spire ships also really massive? Fallen Spire ships probably shouldn't even fit inside of transports in the first place.

You need to put them in transports because they're really slow.

Also, Zenith starship Mk3s have more HP than any player-controlled Fallen Spire ship hull.

[Vyndicu]

Also, Zenith starship Mk3s have more HP than any player-controlled Fallen Spire ship hull.

Are you sure about that? *goes to check*

Dang I am still sure that with mk 4 shield hp for a spire Dreadnought is slightly higher plus modular with modules.

[Radiant Phoenix]

Also, Zenith starship Mk3s have more HP than any player-controlled Fallen Spire ship hull.

Are you sure about that? *goes to check*

Dang I am still sure that with mk 4 shield hp for a spire Dreadnought is slightly higher plus modular with modules.

Each human-usable Fallen Spire ship can mount shields with total hit points up to its hull HP.

That brings the human-controllable FS Dreadnought up to 160mil HP, or slightly less than the Mk5 Zenith Starship's 180mil HP.

[Cinth]

Also, Zenith starship Mk3s have more HP than any player-controlled Fallen Spire ship hull.

Are you sure about that? *goes to check*

Dang I am still sure that with mk 4 shield hp for a spire Dreadnought is slightly higher plus modular with modules.

MK III Zenith ... 108 M
MK V Spire Dread ... 80 M
MK V Spire Dread w/ MK IV Shield 120 M

[Radiant Phoenix]

MK III Zenith ... 108 M
MK V Spire Dread ... 80 M
MK V Spire Dread w/ MK IV Shield 120 M

Two shields, actually, for 160M

Still less than a Mk5 Zenith Starship.

[Cinth]

MK V Zenith SS 180 M

You actually have to forgo MK III Plasma Siege Cannon modules to get those MK IV shields. 

[Vyndicu]

My point was that even with shield and hull total hp being less than a mk 5 zenith starship. As long you maintain a healthy number of spire shipyard you can replace dreadnought at will with little risk to you. Zenith starship mk 5 fabricator on the other hand risk turned into "vaporware" in face of exo-waves.

They each have some pro and con. Spire Dreadnought can be flexible. Do you want lot of snipe shot that are immune to radar dampening? Doable. Do you want to burn something under that core shield? Plasma siege cannon done deal. Etc...

Zenith starship's weapon are fixed to only 4 hull bonus type and has no slot module to be flexible.

Base hull weapon for mk 5 zenith is about 400,000 damage per second. Spire Dreadnought base hull *no module* damage per secon is 4,800,000 a second assuming the beam hit the target for the entire 2 second beam is up. I would not compare them by just hull HP alone.

[MaxAstro]

I feel like for the Mk2 transport to be worth K, it needs to do something fundamentally different than a Mk1 transport, not just be better.  It can't really "win" at being better than a Mk1 because they fill their roll well enough that a better version is never going to be worth the K.

Some ideas:

-Give it permacloaking + a small capacity, so that it can guarantee getting a few units somewhere
or
-Give it a forcefield so that it can act a mobile beachhead in addition to a transport
or
-Let it fabricate drones to help it draw fire/deal with attackers while it transports
or
-When it dies it explodes and damages nearby enemy ships

These are just random thoughts, but my point is that the Mk2 needs to be unique, not just improved.  It needs to enable strategies that the Mk1 doesn't.

EDIT: An idea I just thought of that combines 2 & 3 and I quite like: What if the Mk2 automatically deployed a forcefield at its location when you click the unload button?  Obviously there'd have to be a limit on how often it can do this and how strong the force field.

[Radiant Phoenix]

My point was that even with shield and hull total hp being less than a mk 5 zenith starship. As long you maintain a healthy number of spire shipyard you can replace dreadnought at will with little risk to you. Zenith starship mk 5 fabricator on the other hand risk turned into "vaporware" in face of exo-waves.

They each have some pro and con. Spire Dreadnought can be flexible. Do you want lot of snipe shot that are immune to radar dampening? Doable. Do you want to burn something under that core shield? Plasma siege cannon done deal. Etc...

Zenith starship's weapon are fixed to only 4 hull bonus type and has no slot module to be flexible.

Base hull weapon for mk 5 zenith is about 400,000 damage per second. Spire Dreadnought base hull *no module* damage per secon is 4,800,000 a second assuming the beam hit the target for the entire 2 second beam is up. I would not compare them by just hull HP alone.

The Imperial Spire are supposed to be the biggest superweapon -- the enemy that the AI spends most of its time fighting, rather than crushing your tiny empire.

Fallen Spire is supposed to be a game changer. It's supposed to be a situation where the Galactic Capitol and its requisite cities puts you on even ground for a straight-up fight with all the AI forces in the galaxy.

The Spire Dreadnought is the most powerful ship you can get from the Fallen Spire campaign. Don't act like the product of a mere fabricator should be comparable to it.

Once Fallen Spire ships are where they should be (read: the frigate should be at least as good as a Spire Starship), then consider whether it's appropriate for them to be transportable.

---

Also, Photon Lances generally only do full damage when you're outnumbered or facing stationary targets. I estimate maybe half a second of contact in a moving fight.

[Cinth]

My point was that even with shield and hull total hp being less than a mk 5 zenith starship. As long you maintain a healthy number of spire shipyard you can replace dreadnought at will with little risk to you. Zenith starship mk 5 fabricator on the other hand risk turned into "vaporware" in face of exo-waves.

They each have some pro and con. Spire Dreadnought can be flexible. Do you want lot of snipe shot that are immune to radar dampening? Doable. Do you want to burn something under that core shield? Plasma siege cannon done deal. Etc...

Zenith starship's weapon are fixed to only 4 hull bonus type and has no slot module to be flexible.

Base hull weapon for mk 5 zenith is about 400,000 damage per second. Spire Dreadnought base hull *no module* damage per secon is 4,800,000 a second assuming the beam hit the target for the entire 2 second beam is up. I would not compare them by just hull HP alone.

Base Starship VS top of the line Fallen Spire SUPERWEAPON. 

@ RF: The Imperial Spire Dread has 160 M (those are the ones that come in at the end of the FS campaign). 

[Vyndicu]

Where did I said Spire Dreadnought was NOT a superweapon? That said.

All I want to pointed out that zenith starship mk 5 and spire dreadnought can not be compare in the same class just by their hp alone; "M/C cost", knowledge cost, cap, roles and weapon performance comes to mind. Why do people thought I was compare them from a starship to another starship? I am confused.

[Cinth]

Where did I said Spire Dreadnought was NOT a superweapon? That said.

All I want to pointed out that zenith starship mk 5 and spire dreadnought can not be compare in the same class just by their hp alone; "M/C cost", knowledge cost, cap, roles and weapon performance comes to mind. Why do people thought I was compare them from a starship to another starship? I am confused.

A. You pay out the hind-end to get a Spire Dread.  There is a tremendous cost here.  You pay 20 AIP for a MK V Zenith, IF, and only if, RNG graces you during seeding of the map. 

B. You can't compare a Superweapon to a baseline starship vis-a-vis.  The mere fact that we are comparing these two presents a problem with the compression of the cap to 1 (this also impacts the Spire SS).  Want to find a ship to compare the Zenith to?  There are other baseline ships you can choose.  Apple to apples, oranges to oranges, not apples to oranges.