Semi-Poll: Increased AIP for indestructible capturables?

[RCIX]

To sort of formalize what Vyndicu is saying:

What purpose does the fab mechanic serve?
What purpose is it supposed to serve?
If fabs need to be changed (generally if the two above are significantly different), is a mechanical modification or a completely different mechanic to access MkV units in some fashion needed?

[Vyndicu]

I pursue the MK V only ARS's about as much as the current ARS, meaning I would make a great effort to acquire them.

I don't think you quite understood what I was saying. How much knowledge would you pay for a MK5 ARS unlock? You still get the mk2 free but you need to research mk3 up to mk4. I don't want to see how much it would cost to unlock MK4 for normal construction do you? Will you still make the same effort to unlock knowing that it will have a hefty cost in term of AIP/territory/knowledge? We already pay a stiff knowledge cost to unlock adv. fab production capabilities as a neinzul enclave starship.

Yes RCIX put it much better than I did.

[Diazo]

If you have exo-waves incoming, you also have some sort of super-weapon enabled that is more powerful then anything the fac/fab can give you.

Golems don't do anything vs Exos. See for yourself how a Golem does vs 400 Mark II fleet ships, 5 Mark IVs of all starships, a couple of beam and core starships, about 5 of Mark IV Spirecraft Shield Bearers (that also have weapons unlike the human versions) and Spirecraft Siege Towers and possibly a Golem or Mark II Hunter/Killer. Attack those with an Armored Golem and it will get 1 shot LOL. The biggest "problem" with exos is the insane amount of Starships. I'd rather rake a Hunter/Killer than dozens and dozens of Starships.

BUT.. now that the gravity turrets, effects and immunities have been changed.. exos are no longer immune to Gravity effects.. which is great (no sarcasm(that wasn't sarcasm either)). So defending stuff will be easier. Before it was retardedly hard to figure out which ship was the "leader" of the exo and snipe it with Spirecraft Penetrators (everyone in the exo attack force were immune to gravity effects as long as the "leader" was alive).

Hmm.. I really want to test some stuff now.. can't wait till the 6.016 patch is out.

My point was in a game with no super-weapons, a Fac/Fab is a strong increase to your fleet's total firepower.

In a game with super-weapons, that same Fac/Fab's increase to your fleet's total firepower is significantly less in terms of what total percent of your fleet's firepower.

(Random numbers to make a point.)

No super-weapons: Fab is 10% of total firepower, basic ships 90%.
With a Golem: Golem is 15%, Fab is 8%, basic ships 77%.

So, no super weapons, Fab is 10% increase in firepower with no competitors.
With golem, Fab is 8%, Golem is 15%, golem is twice as much relative firepower then the fab, so the fab is a lot less desirable with super-weapons around.

I was not trying to imply that a golem could solo an exo-wave, my point was that a golem generally gets you more firepower for the AIP cost of capturing the system so it is (almost) always a smarter choice to take the golem over the fab.

Which leads back into my question of how are we trying to tweak fabs. Are we aiming for a game with exo-waves present? Or a game with no exo-waves present? That is two very different balance points. Both in how what increase in strength capturing the structure gives us, and also in how vulnerable the structure is.

D.

[Vyndicu]

That is a fair point. I am sure that I can be put in a situation where the fab provide more utility that a superweapon can't do. Like attract missile damage/reduce attract laser damage/shield/shield immune weapon just to name a few.

If we could find a good balance compromise between exo-waves game and non-exo-wave game for fab/adv. fab/ASC then I will be happy.

[Hearteater]

Golems don't do anything vs Exos.

I can't disagree with this statement more strongly.  Cursed, Armored, Blackwidow, and even a Regenerator backing up your fleet are all great against Exos.  Artillery is possibly the weakest against Exos...unless the Exos has a big lead ship.  But Golems are absolutely good against Exos at minimum, and I consider them great against Exos.

[keith.lamothe]

Okay, someone who understands will need to rephrase that for me because "more desirable than superweapons" is actually like square rooting negative 1.

Well, that just needs some...imagination

Get this man a rimshot!

You mean like the insert-quote button not working?

I'm not sure how to even go about finding out what's wrong.  We didn't write the forum software.  I suppose I could ask google...

Hmm, there's this: http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=167184.0  but that's from 2007

Just looked around the SMF wiki a bit, not seeing anything...

which is great (no sarcasm(that wasn't sarcasm either))

What a tangled web we weave!



Anyway, to everyone, two questions to settle two things that have come up a few times here:

1) In a game with no exo sources, are AdvFact/ASC/Fab structures, assuming they're worth capturing, reasonably defensible?

2) In a game with no superweapons, are AdvFact/ASC/Fab structures, assuming they're reasonably defensible, worth capturing?


I'm not saying those are the only two questions that matter, but I'd like to know where we're starting from here.  My understanding is that many of you would answer "yes" to both of these, even on high difficulty.  The second might be more of a"yes, depending on the ship types in question".

[Vyndicu]

1) In a game with no exo sources, are AdvFact/ASC/Fab structures, assuming they're worth capturing, reasonably defensible?

2) In a game with no superweapons, are AdvFact/ASC/Fab structures, assuming they're reasonably defensible, worth capturing?

Sadly my answer is not a complete yes or no. I like to play with superweapon, exo-wave and fallen spire. So I often try to put as many solar systems behind a chokehold as I can for the spire city hubs. Once that chokehold location is finalized anything outside of that is considered to be too volatile to hold for the potential short term benefit from whatever they can make. Like I said earlier it is complete location RNG on if I do use it or not. If it happens to be worthless I always could use more "cannon-fodder" for my campaign. 

[chemical_art]

Keith, after how much easier low aip games are,  i find it easier to save the aip in defending them unless they just happen to already be behind a chokepoint.

[keith.lamothe]

1) In a game with no exo sources, are AdvFact/ASC/Fab structures, assuming they're worth capturing, reasonably defensible?

2) In a game with no superweapons, are AdvFact/ASC/Fab structures, assuming they're reasonably defensible, worth capturing?

Sadly my answer is not a complete yes or no. I like to play with superweapon, exo-wave and fallen spire. So I often try to put as many solar systems behind a chokehold as I can for the spire city hubs. Once that chokehold location is finalized anything outside of that is considered to be too volatile to hold for the potential short term benefit from whatever they can make. Like I said earlier it is complete location RNG on if I do use it or not. If it happens to be worthless I always could use more "cannon-fodder" for my campaign. 

If you never play without exo-sources or superweapons that's fine, but I'm asking about games without them   The exo/superweapon case comes next.

[keith.lamothe]

Keith, after how much easier low aip games are,  i find it easier to save the aip in defending them unless they just happen to already be behind a chokepoint.

Ok, so even an AdvFact isn't worth 20 AIP to you?  I believe you basically never play with CSGs.  How many planets do you normally capture in a winning game?

[chemical_art]

Its not a matter of the factory costing 20 aip. its the matter of both the aip of creating buffer worlda to protect it and the increased k costs of.buying more turrets.

Rather then spend 60 aip to defend it somewhat well i get more bang going for 3 ars

[keith.lamothe]

Rather then spend 60 aip to defend it somewhat well i get more bang going for 3 ars

So doing a take-and-hold on a not-behind-the-chokepoint planet in a no-superweapon+no-exos game takes ~60 AIP between the capture cost, gate raiding (or do you actually have to take adjacent planets), and knowledge spent on turrets?  On the difficulties you play on, at least.

[Hearteater]

1) In a game with no exo sources, are AdvFact/ASC/Fab structures, assuming they're worth capturing, reasonably defensible?

2) In a game with no superweapons, are AdvFact/ASC/Fab structures, assuming they're reasonably defensible, worth capturing?

No Exo Source (with or without Super Weapons)
Below 9/9, I won't lose any AF/ASC/Fab I actually bother to hold.  Not that I need to hold them, but they are easily defensible, generally with a single Fortress.  That creates enough threat the AI won't even attack, and below 9/9 I can keep my threat low enough nothing else builds up.  Obviously super weapons just makes it easier.  CPAs aren't a concern because I never have to worry about the really unfortunate timing of an Exo+CPA.  Without that, the CPA is just threat to be cleaned up.

Exo Source with Super Weapons
Completely fine in the 7s.  With save scumming, I can hold an AF/ASC/Fab against any Exos up into the 8/8s.  In other words my defenses sometimes cut it really close.  Once I hit 9/9 sometimes it just isn't going to happen.  I generally take the structures late in the game for this reason.  There is rarely a need to take them earlier anyway.

Exo Source without Super Weapons
Still okay in the 7 range, but 8s can be really tricky to defend.  Starting at 9/9 I can't plan to have them alive after an Exo.  If I save scum the Exo until it doesn't target them I could do it, but I've only done that once by accident.  Without Super Weapons I play exclusively for taking them late and right after an Exo so I can use them against the home worlds.  Defending these structures eats a lot more time because I need to use my whole fleet to guard the structure (while my choke stops anything there) and that means I need to break up a lot of my offensive actions.  CPA+Exo is almost impossible to defend against at 9/9, and in the 8s on some maps.

[chemical_art]

In general i need to get true buffer worlds in order to ensure a truly safe factory. If i raid that will keep them alive until the next cpa. so that is around 60 aip on average plus some k for turrets. if i raid i have to buy two cqps of tureta to make it a fortress world, which makes it cost around 35 aip after the gate and k cost.

Keep in mind that in additon to these costs, i need the k to actually get ivs. typically i gwt  one or maybe ywo potential ones

[keith.lamothe]

Keep in mind that in additon to these costs, i need the k to actually get ivs. typically i gwt  one or maybe ywo potential ones

So you generally only get mkIII of one or two fleet ship types?  Is all the rest of the K spent in econ, mkII fleet ships, mkII starships, turrets/forts/ffs, maybe warp jammers?