Semi-Poll: Increased AIP for indestructible capturables?

[contingencyplan]

We've debated having destructible capturables in the past few weeks. As I see it, there's two main schools of thought:

• Being forced to defend a particular structure or face its permanent loss adds to the strategic cost of taking it.
• In the case of Exos, you gain enough bonuses that render the necessity of taking the structure unnecessary to win the game.
• Being forced to defend a particular structure permanently tends to be too tedious (stretching defenses, too fragile, etc.)
• In the case of Exos, your capturables are essentially forfeit (in my words, there aren't enough force fields to stop a HK on a mission).

I'll put myself squarely in the latter camp: in my current game, I'm weighing the cost of taking a planet to get a Cursed Golem vs. the inevitable (in my view) loss of the MkV MLRS Fab on the planet. As stated previously, I'm a hoarder.

But thinking about it, I'd personally be willing to pay a higher AIP cost upon capturing a Fab or Factory --- say, 5 per Fab and 10 per Factory, though the cost is certainly up for debate --- in exchange for not facing its permanent loss upon destruction. Have it leave remains (therefore costing resources to rebuild), or be unusable for an hour, or what-have-you, but give me some way to recover it. This way, it fits within the mythos (the AI's perceived threat) and within the strategic processes of the game, as I'm essentially trading an Achilles heel for an increased threat everywhere.

I imagine that those who play low-AIP / high-difficulty games would dislike this option. Perhaps there's a way to give -AIP on permanent self-destruction, so they can decide "yeah, I've gotten enough use out of it, so I'll blow it up to take back the AIP increase"?

Beyond that, are there other capturables that should / should not be included here? Spire Civ Leaders (especially, given the impact on AIP) have always struck me as too fragile --- I was overjoyed to find that I could get the AIP decrease without having to capture the planet. Perhaps this would be a (partial?) answer to the AIP "hoarding" that can occur with them (which I'm very much guilty of).

To the devs: would this require a major rework to achieve? I somewhat expect that -AIP on self-destruction would be non-trivial, judging by the cooldown timer on the command stations.

To everyone else (especially those in the first category): does this strike an agreeable balance between my desire to rebuild Fabs and the like vs. the strategic implications of taking it?

[Kahuna]

Capturables could to spawn closer to the player's home planet and further away from wormholes.. and the knowledge cost of the Warp Jammer Command Station could be reduced to 3000. 5000 is too much. It's not going to do anything vs CPAs nor Exos.

Or capturables could leave remains which could be rebuilt. Then people would actually use them.. I mean who actually uses Fabricators regularly in a 9+ difficulty game and in a real map (simple/realistic). No one.

[_K_]

and the knowledge cost of the Warp Jammer Command Station could be reduced to 3000. 5000 is too much. It's not going to do anything vs CPAs nor Exos.

Yeah, its so not worth it's cost. Thats why nobody ever buys it. Oh wait...

Being forced to defend a particular structure

And who exactly is forcing you? Your own fear of losing some minor structure permanently?

I'm weighing the cost of taking a planet to get a Cursed Golem vs. the inevitable (in my view) loss of the MkV MLRS Fab on the planet.

So, if the planet had no fab at all, you wouldnt have any problem taking it? And when there is a fab you can get as a bonus to the golem, you are suddenly unsure, just because you will probably lose that bonus in a while? You do realise this is stupid, right?
You basically refuse to take a free advantage solely because you fear losing it some time later.


Thats the problem with people. Whenever people get some bonus with no definite time limit, they suddenly start considering it the norm and get upset about losing it. And in a slow game as this, if something is not lost forever, it can be basically considered not lost at all.

I'd personally be willing to pay a higher AIP cost upon capturing a Fab or Factory --- say, 5 per Fab and 10 per Factory

So you want to turn a free bonus into a thing that costs you AIP upon capture? I would probably be killing 90% of fabs instead of capturing them in such scenario.

Perhaps there's a way to give -AIP on permanent self-destruction

Getting +AIP and then -AIP is not the same thing as never getting +AIP at all due to AIP floor.

[contingencyplan]

Perhaps there's a way to give -AIP on permanent self-destruction

Getting +AIP and then -AIP is not the same thing as never getting +AIP at all due to AIP floor.

I'll admit I'd forgotten to consider that, so that may nuke this idea. Out of curiosity, how often do you play at the AIP floor?

Being forced to defend a particular structure

And who exactly is forcing you? Your own fear of losing some minor structure permanently?

I'm weighing the cost of taking a planet to get a Cursed Golem vs. the inevitable (in my view) loss of the MkV MLRS Fab on the planet.

So, if the planet had no fab at all, you wouldnt have any problem taking it? And when there is a fab you can get as a bonus to the golem, you are suddenly unsure, just because you will probably lose that bonus in a while? You do realise this is stupid, right?
You basically refuse to take a free advantage solely because you fear losing it some time later.

I'd personally be willing to pay a higher AIP cost upon capturing a Fab or Factory --- say, 5 per Fab and 10 per Factory

So you want to turn a free bonus into a thing that costs you AIP upon capture? I would probably be killing 90% of fabs instead of capturing them in such scenario.

As noted, I play a hoarder's game; I'd consider that the solution is "don't be a hoarder." And in this particular circumstance, you're probably right --- the Cursed Golem is enough of a bonus on its own to warrant taking the planet; I just brought it up for context for my posting the thread.


However, I would disagree that Fabs are a free bonus, since it costs AIP to take them. You're assuming that I would take the planet anyways for other reasons (positioning, Golems, etc.), which fits the case I gave but doesn't generalize. Because I'm playing with all Exos on, the cap of MkVs I'd get before the Fab is destroyed is not sufficient to warrant my taking a planet. However, I'm not a good player --- how long does a cap of MkVs last you generally, and how early do you obtain them (depending on the ship, obviously)?

The situation is even more problematic with FacIVs (and similarly with the new StarIVs), because I have to invest both AIP and Knowledge to be able to use them. The investment becomes a sort of pyramid scheme --- the more Knowledge I invest in using the FacIV, the more AIP, Knowledge, and firepower I must further invest.  Do you consider FacIVs to likewise be a free bonus, given that the Knowledge costs of MkIII units is balanced around being able to obtain --- and keep --- a FacIV?

Thats the problem with people. Whenever people get some bonus with no definite time limit, they suddenly start considering it the norm and get upset about losing it. And in a slow game as this, if something is not lost forever, it can be basically considered not lost at all.

I can see your point, but the question remains: why should I not be able to use a permanently resource I paid a permanent cost for?

[Kahuna]

I think capturables should be indestructible. They would just leave remains which could be rebuilt. Rebuilding should be expensive though. Not as expensive as repairing a golem thought. Something like 200k-300k. If a player use resources to rebuild a planet he/she can't defend then so be it. This would also increase the effect of the economic attrition on higher difficulty levels. If something kills me it's usually the economic attrition.

[_K_]

You're assuming that I would take the planet anyways for other reasons (positioning, Golems, etc.), which fits the case

Uncaptured fabs dont have much strategic value and on their own are never a reason enough to take the planet they are on. So i consider them a bonus whenever one of them happens to be on a planet i need to take for other, more important reasons.

However, I'm not a good player --- how long does a cap of MkVs last you generally, and how early do you obtain them (depending on the ship, obviously)?

When actively used in the main fleet - not long. The ones with more HP and less DPS live longer, but still die out slowly. And then there are fleet wipes.
Whenever i lose a fab i generally set it's ships on reserve duty. Unless theres some serious emergency, they will just sit at home.

As noted, I play a hoarder's game

As you see, me too. and i HATE that part of myself. If you want to hoard stuff, you better learn to protect whatever you have hoarded, or be ready to lose it.

Do you consider FacIVs to likewise be a free bonus

No, of course not. FacIVs can boost your fleet by a very large amount, so the FacIV usually IS a reason enough to take the planet it's on.

Their importance is much higher so i do find a compromise solution acceptable there.

Though i still believe they should NOT be rebuildable. 20 AIP isnt much of a price for a FacIV, especially since you also get all other benefits of conquering a planet, like knowledge, resources and a CSG. Having to protect it at all times... now that is a nice price and a challenge which you cannot just easily retry after failing. I like my AI not forgiving such disasters as a loss of FacIV.

If something kills me it's usually the economic attrition.

Does it kill you with boredom?

If a player use resources to rebuild a planet he/she can't defend then so be it.

CPAs and Exos happen once every few hours. 200-300k resources is less than 10 minutes.
So instead of losing the fac, i will be losing 10 minutes of my time.

[Wingflier]

I would only agree to this AIP penalty on Fabs or Factories (which leaves remains if destroyed) IF the player can choose to manually destroy them with the delete key, which accrues no AIP, and destroys the remains.

Some Fabs I just don't use, or don't plan to use after I've already built the ships. Sometimes I won't even build the MKV ships just because I don't need them, or it's a relatively useless ship type.

Forcing me to defend a Fabricator I don't even want, at the cost of AIP, and which will probably be rebuilt automatically by my rebuilders to accrue even more AIP, is unacceptable.  Otherwise, I think it's a decent idea.

[_K_]

In the undesirable case this goes through, the best mechanic would be to make them not automatically rebuildable, and have the AIP penalty happen once you finish rebuilding it.
That way you wont need to constantly keep an eye on your fabs so that you can del it right before they get killed by AI ships.

[Kahuna]

If something kills me it's usually the economic attrition.

Does it kill you with boredom?

Guess

[chemical_art]

In the undesirable case this goes through, the best mechanic would be to make them not automatically rebuildable, and have the AIP penalty happen once you finish rebuilding it.

I think a better solution to have the building starting as "broken", like golems are. Once repaired it incurs AIP cost.

If destroyed, it leaves remains, which can be repaired for no AIP cost.

This will allow the player to choose which fabricators it wants to go online, and allow them to be rebuilt without incurring AIP multiple times, and should be fairly easy to code.

I voted yes: Since I cannot depend on fabricators or factories to live for the hardest part of the game, AI HW assault, I consider them as DOA in my games; They don't factor into game situations.

Not. At. All.

It's easier to avoid taking the world, save the AIP, and overall make the game easier.

I hate the idea of a short term benefit, unless it is game changing and easy to manage (golems), at the cost of long term AIP.

[chemical_art]

If something kills me it's usually the economic attrition.

Does it kill you with boredom?

Guess

More like the outgoing costs of defense overcome the incoming resources?

At least, that is what happens to me. Eventually my things get wrecked faster then I can replace them.

[keith.lamothe]

Still parsing the rest, but:

If something kills me it's usually the economic attrition.

Does it kill you with boredom?

Econ Death Spirals are real, man.

And not pleasant.

[keith.lamothe]

I'm not certain in my mind if it's a net-improvement for the game, but I think the original post's idea has merit.  Based on the back-and-forth in this thread here is one way it could be concretely implemented:

1) For all AdvFact, ASC, and Fabs (let me know if I left out something you'd want included; I think ZPGs are better as-is).

2) Make them leave remains.  The construction costs would be non-trivial but not absurd.  I'm thinking 100k total m+c for a fab, and 200k total m+c for an AdvFact or ASC.

3) Give them AIP-upon-being-rebuilt.  This wouldn't be exactly the same mechanic as golems-medium uses since they wouldn't be metamorphosing on repair but instead on rebuild.  The AIP cost would probably happen as soon as the rebuild beam turned them back from remains into the under-construction-with-half-health thing.  Anyway I think I'd probably do +10 AIP on the AdvFact and ASC, and +2 AIP on the fabs.

4) Make them never be automatically be targeted for rebuilding, these would always need to be a conscious decision.

... and done, right?  That would actually take me less than an hour, probably.


@Kahuna: on the placement of these in-system, they already specifically avoid being put near wormholes (exactly how far depends on how intractable the wormhole placement is).  Where do you actually want them to go?  On the inner grav ring and such that distance-to-nearest-wormhole is maximized?


Anyway, my thoughts on the above idea:

Pros:

- For players who prefer these as irreplaceables, this actually doesn't change anything: just ignore the remains of the ones that get destroyed and you're done.  No additional cost, no additional AIP, it's just no longer available to you.

- This would greatly help address a concern many players have expressed: given the defensive tools currently available to the player, and given a pretty large set of possible moderate-to-high-difficulty scenarios, it is not feasible for a player to adequately defend their "core" (chunk of territory protecting the home command station) and even 1 "satellite world" on a permanent basis.  You still definitely would not want to lose these things because AIP hurts (unless you're playing FS, but then the fabs/factories probably don't matter so much).

- It's a pretty simple change, in terms of dev time.


Cons:

- I can totally see Faulty Logic running wild this.  AIP means nothing to him when he's coming in for the final attack run   Wait until the final battle is possible, drop a mob of engies to rebuild the wrecks and (popping distro nodes if necessary) turbo-build their stuff to cap and rush rush rush the homeworlds through the thermal bloom of all those warheads.

More seriously, it's not just one player: at the end of the game, it's quite viable to ignore last-minute AIP increases.  And I like that part of the game, as it lets the player make a win-or-lose gambit and that's awesome.  But this would potentially strengthen said gambit excessively.  That said, there are at least two heavily mitigating factors: first, rebuilding the structures and building caps of high-tech units costs a lot of m+c and the player can't exactly wait around for more once the rebuilding has started.  Second, if it's really a problem, I can make it so that the rebuilding of the AdvFact/etc remains takes a certain minimum amount of time and can't be accelerated by engie assistance.


Anyway, let's talk about this some more.  Then if it makes sense I may post a separate poll with a more-obviously-not-intrusive-upon-players-who-like-it-the-way-it-is version

[_K_]

Anyway I think I'd probably do +10 AIP on the AdvFact and ASC, and +2 AIP on the fabs.

I usually focus quite heavily on upgrading fleet ships, so the AdvFac boosts my strength tremendously. The system with AdvFac becomes basically my second home because of how valuable those MKIV fleet ships are, and how horrible it is to lose them. As result, i usually divert alot of my defences to there, to ensure nothing gets in. Defending both the AdvFac and the home station during a CPA/ Exo is a major and fun challenge.

This entire aspect of strategy would vanish if I could rebuild it for a little AIP. Before, i needed to be 95% sure it holds against anything. Now i would be quite fine with 60%. After all, all i lose is some time rebuilding it and just ten AIP. Thats absolutely nothing compared to the previous loss of a huge chunk of my fleet power.

+2 AIP on fabs? So you pay 2 AIP for a full cap of MKV ships... let me remind you, I pay 40 AIP to get 6k exp needed for a cap of MKIII-MKIV ships. Its not like i lose those fabs every 5 minutes. Only once in 4-5 hours, so in a relatively long game i would have spent not 2, but maybe 6 AIP to rebuild those. Yeah, big deal.

[chemical_art]

- I can totally see Faulty Logic running wild this.  AIP means nothing to him when he's coming in for the final attack run   Wait until the final battle is possible, drop a mob of engies to rebuild the wrecks and (popping distro nodes if necessary) turbo-build their stuff to cap and rush rush rush the homeworlds through the thermal bloom of all those warheads.

This is pretty much how I would treat it.

BUT, I always complain that the hardest part of the game is the end game, so I'm content with it.