Returning player thoughts on Radar Dampening etc.

[snelg]

Haven't played the game for a while now but just finished a 20+ hours game and here's a few quick thoughts I have.

Noticed the Guardposts got themselves a healthy boost in threat when visiting an ai controlled planet. A good change, I believe, since they were kind of weak before.

But with a lot of things now running Radar dampening it's really hard to tell how close you have to get to actually attack something since the actual attack range on the ships doesn't matter. "Can I actually send my ships to destroy that guardpost without having four others and that fort attacking them?" was something I found myself wondering quite often throughout the game. I think having the radar dampening on some types of guardposts could make them unique and interesting but all of them having it makes the important (in my opinion) part of knowing how close you have to get to something really blurry. Also, special forces guard posts and the command stations don't have it (which feels kind of weird and would probably be two of the things I'd put it on if I had to pick a few that would be interesting).
Same thing with a lot of the human players turrents (mark II and up). Wouldn't you actually want enemies shooting at random turrets rather than firing at the command station?
Could be something I just need to get used to I guess.

With all the radar dampening and shields being immune to antimatter bombs I could see bombards and other longer range ships being really weak now (didn't get any of them this game but them being some of my favourite ship types it makes me a little sad).

The artillery golem I found towards the end of the game didn't see too much use apart from firing at the odd astro train passing byfrom time to time (If I got it earlier I might have had it destroying random wormhole guardposts or something). Speaking of astrotrains, would it be possible to tell ships/turrets/etc always auto attack them or maybe only when there's no threats in the current system? A toggle in controls maybe? It's a little irritating to have to manually target them even when you do have the firepower to actually destroy or seriously damage one. Though I could see the problem of them chasing a train instead of something important.

More on the topic of golems, I believe this has been discussed before if I recall correctly but can't remember where it went.
Is there a reason they don't just take damage when firing instead of all the time when not in low power mode? I'm pretty sure it looked like they still ate as much energy while low power now (which is something I believe was not the case before). Only thing I can think of the change would do would be to take away the micromanagement of hitting the power button all the time.

I really like the new idea of being able to build turrets on all planets (with the capturable mark V turrets), since that's something I tend to do anyways I can get more of them now. I just wonder, is there a reason you can't build the lower mark turrets in the same system as the high level ones? It just seems really weird and I can't see why, maybe I've missed something.
I unlocked the Spider turret and then later captured the mark V spider turret thing. Now my 2000 knowledge I spent on them feels kind of wasted since why would I want the mark I turrets when I could use mark V.

Thanks once again for a great game by the way, enjoying the new expansion so far.

[TechSY730]

With all the radar dampening and shields being immune to antimatter bombs I could see bombards and other longer range ships being really weak now (didn't get any of them this game but them being some of my favourite ship types it makes me a little sad).

Amazingly, long ranged stuff continues to be some of the most aggravating to fight even with these restrictions. Huge range is just that much of an asset.

Speaking of astrotrains, would it be possible to tell ships/turrets/etc always auto attack them or maybe only when there's no threats in the current system? A toggle in controls maybe? It's a little irritating to have to manually target them even when you do have the firepower to actually destroy or seriously damage one. Though I could see the problem of them chasing a train instead of something important.

Yea, the whole auto-attack issue is still something that could be looked at. But your point of them possibly being a distraction if something more important comes around is a good one. Sadly, there are really too many ships going on to have too much in terms of intelligent auto-retargeting like some other RTSs have.

More on the topic of golems, I believe this has been discussed before if I recall correctly but can't remember where it went.
Is there a reason they don't just take damage when firing instead of all the time when not in low power mode? I'm pretty sure it looked like they still ate as much energy while low power now (which is something I believe was not the case before). Only thing I can think of the change would do would be to take away the micromanagement of hitting the power button all the time.

Oh yea. I remember now that in the other thread that mentioned this, I promised a mantis link, which I never gave. Do you know where that conversation is so I can fill it in?
Anyways, here is the link: 8904: Make Golems self damage upon firing a weapon, instead of by simply being on

I really like the new idea of being able to build turrets on all planets (with the capturable mark V turrets), since that's something I tend to do anyways I can get more of them now. I just wonder, is there a reason you can't build the lower mark turrets in the same system as the high level ones? It just seems really weird and I can't see why, maybe I've missed something.
I unlocked the Spider turret and then later captured the mark V spider turret thing. Now my 2000 knowledge I spent on them feels kind of wasted since why would I want the mark I turrets when I could use mark V.

The reasoning is that they didn't want these to buff chokepoint defenses in addition to buffing distributed defense. Thus, the no stacking with other turret marks rule was born.
However, you are not the only to think the way it has been done feels too arbitrary and "artificial".

Someone mentioned a compromise that Mk. Vs would only be mutually exclusive with Mk. II and Mk. III. You could still stack them with Mk. I turrets. (Or was it the other way around? You couldn't stack them with Mk. I, but with Mk. II and III is fair game?)


Also, does the Spider Mk. V turret also disable the Sniper turret Mk. I in addition to the normal spider turret? If not, then there really is no reason why it should not be able to stack.

[chemical_art]

For the turrets, i proposed that core turrets give roughy the same impact as a cap of mk i turrets, and having.the core turrets only exclude the i. That way ii and iii retain their value.

[Qatu]

 Artillery golem is immune to radar dampening and will happily one shot all guard posts from the outer rim of a planet. Works on all planets except AI homeworlds since those posts are immune to artillery golem.

 As for radar dampening I really dont like it either but in the current state of the game it seems to be a necessary mechanic to achieve reasonable balance.

[MaxAstro]

Honestly what is really needed is a visual display of radar dampening range.  Just like you can push a button to see the attack range of anything you need to, you really should be able to hit a button and see the radar dampening range everything has.  Preferably at the same time as attack range. 

[TechSY730]

Honestly what is really needed is a visual display of radar dampening range.  Just like you can push a button to see the attack range of anything you need to, you really should be able to hit a button and see the radar dampening range everything has.  Preferably at the same time as attack range. 

This. How hasn't this already been out into mantis in some form already?

Anyways, it would be nice to see radar dampening lose some distribution (and I have some ideas about how to do that without undoing what it does for battlefields by too much), but I think some way to see it graphically would go a long way to solving many complaints.

[Bones]

Having the ranges for radar dampening be drawn when holding down z in addition to our ships ranges would be handy, since they both determine when ships can engage.

[KDR_11k]

Radar dampening really has spread too far. It started out as the SSB's gimmick and now it's everywhere...

For the turrets, i proposed that core turrets give roughy the same impact as a cap of mk i turrets, and having.the core turrets only exclude the i. That way ii and iii retain their value.

Hooves aren't so good for typing, eh?

[The Hunter]

I like radar dampening though it barely makes any sense, haha, but i do agree that it really needs to show radii one way or another. 

[keith.lamothe]

Radar dampening really has spread too far. It started out as the SSB's gimmick and now it's everywhere...

I don't think this assertion, though somewhat common lately, is helpful or accurate because Radar Dampening is not actually on very many units (certainly not "everywhere"), and it has a specific purpose for being there in most cases. 


It's on:

All guard posts except the SF post and the Spire-Shield post (which I think technically has it but it doesn't seem to keep stuff from shooting at it from wherever anyway). 
-The former I should just rename "Special Forces Rally Post" because it's not really like the other guard posts and hasn't been for a long, long time.  The Spire-Shield one is a ff-emitter and those generally can't be dampened.
- Anyway, these have RD for a very specific reason: to make sure you have to actually engage them rather than just snipe every single one from outside its range.  Arty Golem aside, as it's a superweapon that specifically counters these (and a few other units serve the purpose pretty well).

Turrets (mkII+)
- Similar to the guard posts: because its a stationary defense that "snipe from range, all day, every day" doesn't make particularly interesting.  But it's less essential since the AI is less deliberate about that sort of attack than humans are, so this was given to the mkII+'s as a buff to their desirability.

Raider Guardians (including Dire)
Raid Starships
Spire Stealth Battleships
Space Planes
Neinzul Champs (mkII+)
- This is to facilitate the raiding role: part of the point and value of these units is to be able to go after targets without all the planet's defenses being able to engage them.

Flagships
Mobile Space Dock
Enclave Starship
- These are basically "officer" units that are very helpful to keep moving around with (or slightly behind) your main forces, but if the enemy could shoot at them as freely as they could anything else then these would die really quickly and thus lose a lot of their point.

Mining Golem
Resistance-Fighter faction ships
Marauder faction ships
- These are minor faction units that spawn way the waaaaay away from the planet center.  The RD just lets them close (in theory).

Scouts/Scout-starships
- Just to help survivability while moving through enemy defenses, because that's basically all they do.

Fortresses and Mod Forts (but it's 30k range)
- This isn't really even normal radar dampening because the range is so enormous.  It was added by request, I'm not entirely sure why

Hive Golem
Spirecraft Siege Towers
- Ok, I'll give you these as not really making a ton of sense to have it.  I mean, the Hive could fit in the "officer" category but it doesn't actually do a lot of ongoing deployment so you can just keep it back.  And the Siege Tower could fit the "raider" category but it lacks the cloaking and/or (iirc) speed for that to make sense.



Anyway, I'd be happy to drop it from the Hive Golem and the Spirecraft Siege Towers.  Even the forts unless someone objects (though again those ranges are so huge, is the RD really noticeable?). 

But what else would you want it to go away from?  It's really not on all that many units.

[MaxAstro]

Completely agree with Keith here.  IMO every unit that has radar dampening it makes sense, except those he mentioned.

Actually, I like Siege Towers having it because I see it fitting their (implied by name) role of attacking heavily defended locations.  I don't currently remember - is their dampening less than their attack range?  If not it should be.  Siege Towers need an overhaul anyway, they are weird and lack a clearly defined role.  If they had an attack that was effective vs. forts and dampening less than their attack range that would make them a great alternative to bombers for sieging hardened targets.

[Tridus]

I'd keep it on the siege tower, it's so slow that without it it's way too easy to kill.

The fortress one is weird. It should probably keep it so stuff has to be in the forts range, and 30000 really doesn't bother things much.

[snelg]

With all the radar dampening and shields being immune to antimatter bombs I could see bombards and other longer range ships being really weak now (didn't get any of them this game but them being some of my favourite ship types it makes me a little sad).

Amazingly, long ranged stuff continues to be some of the most aggravating to fight even with these restrictions. Huge range is just that much of an asset.

In that last game I finished the ai had bombards, which were a bit of a pain since they would wake up everything else on their guard post when I got in range. Also, they quickly finished of one of the turret V buildings during a counterattack from a guard post (why do all irreplaceable buildings have such low hp?) but for some reason I could still build more turrets.

Oh yea. I remember now that in the other thread that mentioned this, I promised a mantis link, which I never gave. Do you know where that conversation is so I can fill it in?
Anyways, here is the link: 8904: Make Golems self damage upon firing a weapon, instead of by simply being on

I just remember it being mentioned sometime long ago, went and voted on the mantis page.

The reasoning is that they didn't want these to buff chokepoint defenses in addition to buffing distributed defense. Thus, the no stacking with other turret marks rule was born.
However, you are not the only to think the way it has been done feels too arbitrary and "artificial".

Someone mentioned a compromise that Mk. Vs would only be mutually exclusive with Mk. II and Mk. III. You could still stack them with Mk. I turrets. (Or was it the other way around? You couldn't stack them with Mk. I, but with Mk. II and III is fair game?)


Also, does the Spider Mk. V turret also disable the Sniper turret Mk. I in addition to the normal spider turret? If not, then there really is no reason why it should not be able to stack.

Spider turret V doesn't block the sniper I turret, I'm pretty sure I had both in my home system. I don't really see how moving the rule up to mark II and III would make it much better, maybe even more confusing. Is the boost to chokepoints really that big? Maybe the whole thing needs to be taken down a notch then. But the that rule feels really weird and artificial like you mentioned.


Must have missed the part about the artillery golem being immune to radar dampening. I got it really late and didn't have much chance of playing around with it.

It's true that not that many units have radar dampening, but you're going to run into them at every single planet you visit, and have to guesstimate how close you can get to them since the range doesn't matter. Adding a visual radar dampening range might help but will make it even more cluttered when viewing weapon ranges. The fortress range is kind of weird in that you can still shoot it even outside its range, I guess it still helps it avoid getting sniped from far away so you have to get decently close. Maybe setting the radar dampening close to the units weapon range would work? "You have to be about this close" or "a little closer than this" would work pretty well I think (mostly thinking about the guard posts).

[Fluffiest]

Is there a list of things that have radar damping immunity?

[Vacuity]

Is there a list...?

Keith's post just four posts above yours?