Author Topic: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions  (Read 103846 times)

Offline LaughingThesaurus

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,723
Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #225 on: August 30, 2012, 07:44:53 pm »
If it's set to a flat 8 no matter what, then 20 planet games might very well just get silly with how many offroad scenarios you can do without ever having to expand your empire.
...but there's not really a solution to that, that I see. Not even completely sure it's a problem.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #226 on: August 30, 2012, 08:09:52 pm »
20 planet games tend to be pretty silly now :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Cinth

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,527
  • Resident Zombie
Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #227 on: August 30, 2012, 08:28:07 pm »
I'm probably going to change it from having planets/10 scenarios to just 8 scenarios on every map, for balance reasons.

Dies a little on the inside
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Toranth

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,244
Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #228 on: August 30, 2012, 08:45:48 pm »
I'm probably going to change it from having planets/10 scenarios to just 8 scenarios on every map, for balance reasons.
Dies a little on the inside

Agree with Cinth here.  More scenarios is just more fun.  More scenarios means more toys (unlocks). 
And it can be really unfortunate if you simply don't get the ship type/module you wanted by the time you run out of nebulas.  My experiment game didn't give me the Spire ship line till scenario 11 of 12 (the third Gray Spire scenario).

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #229 on: August 30, 2012, 09:48:16 pm »
Best of both worlds? MAX(8, planets / 10)?  Because at 120 planets, 8 nebula are going to be much harder to reach compared to an 80 planet map.

Offline LaughingThesaurus

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,723
Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #230 on: August 30, 2012, 10:29:28 pm »
Maybe allow a setting for the magnitude of nebula spawns. On 1, it would spawn 2. On 4, it would spawn 8. On 10, it would spawn... ONE FOR EVERY PLANET IN THE GALAXY!!!
Or maybe like 20 or something.
That's if it really needs a change, in practice. On 120 planet maps, are things not already more spread out as it is? If that's the case, it'd make sense for the nebula to be spread out as a result as well.

Offline Coppermantis

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,212
  • Avenger? I hardly know 'er!
Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #231 on: August 30, 2012, 11:13:10 pm »
I think making it minimum 8 but scale up for number of planets would work fine. Having it set at 8 would make larger games harder to get nebulae.

Making it scale based on setting could work, but then it would have to be a minor faction which would be odd with the current champion setup in that it could be disabled or enabled regardless of whether or not there are champion players.
I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline LaughingThesaurus

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,723
Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #232 on: August 30, 2012, 11:43:28 pm »
I wasn't sure if it would have to be a minor faction, or if it could be like, its own option... but like, I wouldn't know where to put it. In the interest of simplicity, 8, or planets/10 if that would be higher, would be ideal. In the interest of configurability, scaling setting of awesome?

Offline PokerChen

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,088
Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #233 on: August 31, 2012, 03:25:25 am »
Hmmm... I only had 5 in the last game. Granted, that was a few patches ago.

They are silly powerful. I'm never that sure about having a ship that can knock down a core guardpost in a snap - I'm looking specifically at the Spire-lines, which mounts a lot more siege power than the equivalent Spire-fleets (excluding their beams) :P

Offline doctorfrog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 591
Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #234 on: August 31, 2012, 04:32:09 am »
So, one thing I notice as a sporadic, fairly novice player:

I can select one champion.

I can select none at all.

I can select 8 champions.

The game really gives me no indication as to how difficulty/easy I am making the game by doing this. Am I cheesing the heck out of it by selecting 8? Or will the AI push back against this somehow? I don't have much of an idea what it means to play with champions.

I know this is a beta, but I'd say this uncertainty extends to nearly all the options in general, and I think that the lobby scripts are supposed to resolve this to a degree, but they haven't yet.

With all four expansions enabled, and the thousands of possible combinations of options, it is increasingly difficult to even start a game and have any idea of what sort of game a new player is in for. Even the "middle of the road" difficulty for certain faction levels is FOUR. Four? How does that translate to "Average" or "Medium" for a new player? What can that possibly mean? How do they tell reliably whether a given faction will help or harm them? Look at all these great options! There are popups that kind of tell me what they do, but I still don't know what they mean.

It's great to see AI War get some major focus after the long dev cycle for AVWW. I think one thing you should consider adding to your priorities is a more intuitive method for communicating to new or returning players what in the heck they're in for in a new game.

Easiest way (IMO):
  • Develop sensible lobby scripts that describe easy/medium/hard (probably more complicated than that) for new/returning users. Perhaps even expert users wanting a specific challenge.
  • Make the lobby script selector prominent enough such that it's the first thing a user visits to alter the game.
  • Set new game defaults to something a brand new user would probably be comfortable with.
  • Make it easy to save current lobby settings to a lobby script.
  • Make it easy to revert to lobby defaults.
  • Make it easy to randomize certain choices from within the lobby.
  • Hold a contest for lobby script themes to utilize your obsessed community.

Any thoughts? Hopefully I don't sound nuts, but this is a slightly intimidating game.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 01:40:01 pm by doctorfrog »

Offline LaughingThesaurus

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,723
Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #235 on: August 31, 2012, 08:48:40 am »
While making the settings more intuitive is something I agree with...
Every champion you add is a +20% to the AI strength overall, similar to every homeworld (either single player or multiplayer) being +100%... I believe. But, the AI strength adjustment is such that the strength you gain out of having multiple homeworlds or champions will outpace it, if you use them effectively.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #236 on: September 01, 2012, 01:16:24 am »
I'm going to go off the current topic a bit but still stay true to the thread's topic, the bonus ships.

Is it just me, or do the new ships seem rather OP?
I haven't tried the siege engine or the tackle drone launcher yet, but I have experianced the Spire railcluster and the Zenith medical frigate:

Spire railcluster:
1. They seem a bit durable for the DPS they can dish out, especially at higher marks. Though their level of durability may be in line with the other Spire stuff, I have not played much with the other Spire stuff to make a comparison.
This feeling is exacerbated by the fact that they get a good bonus against what should be their counter
2. For a ship type that is described as being a counter to lots of smaller ships, their single target DPS seems pretty darn high.

Zenith medical frigate:
1. Their DPS is really, really high, which when combined with their repair abilities, makes them OP
2. Amusingly, they are not immune to reclaimation



Also, when hybrids get their drones, is the ship cap properly being factored into the drone's "cost"? Because I have had several attacks by hybrids with almost as many low ship cap ships as I am used to seeing from them when they have normal cap ships.
As you can imagine, this hurts, a LOT.  :o


Anyone else have any thoughts about this?

Offline Faulty Logic

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,194
  • Bane of the AI
Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #237 on: September 01, 2012, 04:17:24 am »
I have experienced tackle drones, and they are really, really good in either your hands or the enemies. Both the "spawner" ships (tackle drone launcher and spire blade spawner) seem extremely good. Maybe halve their spawn rate, have them use some of their own health to spawn a drone, lower their drone speed, or lower their cap further.

The seige engine is certainly not OP. They are basically a very good turret with the ability to move around.

Agreed on the railcluster and Z medic stuff, though the railcluster is supposed to specialize in simple DPS, so it shouldn't be nerfed too much.

Can't speak to the Scapegoat, as I have never seen one.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 05:45:25 am by Faulty Logic »
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline Toranth

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,244
Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #238 on: September 01, 2012, 07:38:31 am »
I'm going to go off the current topic a bit but still stay true to the thread's topic, the bonus ships.

Is it just me, or do the new ships seem rather OP?
I haven't tried the siege engine or the tackle drone launcher yet, but I have experianced the Spire railcluster and the Zenith medical frigate:
Having now played against an AI that was using using each of the bonus ships except Tackle Launchers, I'm not too concerned.
Yes, the ships are powerful.  But not too powerful.  I still find that AI Blade Spawners and SSBs are far nastier than any of the new ships.

Railclusters are just high-DPS, high-HP ships.  The caps are low, so even the AI doesn't get very many - 1 per post-ish levels.  That limits them from being a super pain to merely being nasty.  A slight nerf might be in order, but they're still just towards the high end of the fleetship DPS, not the top.  The multiplier against their counter thing should be changed, however - I agree with you there.  I don't know why these were ever Polycrystal hulls to begin with.  Seems... odd.

The Medic is a mid-high HP ship with good DPS.  However, the Medic's healing ability goes to waste in AI hands.  In human hands, the Medics are very useful for extended expiditions - neutering AI worlds, clearing highways, raiding, etc.  I suspect they need a DPS nerf to go with their support role, because right now they are just awesome.

The Siege Engine is actually pretty weak in AI hands, since the AI is easy to manipulate if you pay attention to it's targeting practices.  Perform hit & run style attacks against them and you can kill 100 or more without taking much damage.  Only if the Sieges get all threat-like and decide to visit your planets do they become a real danger.  Kill them quick, then, or lose all your defenses.
Humans have some of the same problems - I found these wonderful for taking out fortresses (Especially those under force fields).  I found them of moderate use on defense.  They were of NO use anywhere else.  I acquired ZBombards from an ARS that same game, and got way more use of those.

Reprocessors are med-high-HP but don't do much damage.  The special ability is, again, wasted in AI hands.  In human hands, I'm sure they're giving me resources, but I can't say I've been able to tell how much they help.  Usually, when they kill things, I'm too busy to pay that close attention to my resource levels.

Scapegoats are odd.  They preserve an AI ship from death, but at the same time they take up a slot on the AI's system-cap.  I attacked a homeworld that had 300 Mk V Scapegoats on it, and was distinctly unimpressed.  I suspect this is another case of "Wasted in the AI hands" because it will require careful use to preserve special ships, rather than low-hp cannon fodder.

Tackle drones.  I've not played against an AI using them, so I cna only speak to human usage.  I think this is going to be a love-it-or-hate-it ship.  I can't stand the things.  They ruin my formations, put the enemy ships in places I don't want, and in general don't kill things.  Also, there are a LOT of ships immune to tractors out there.  As part of a heavy defense, they are terrible.  As part of an offensive fleet, they are awkward and dramatically increase the level of micro required.  Finally, they are very expensive, very low cap, and very slow to build.
On the other hand, there's nothing better for dealing with light border agression or stray threat in your otherwise un/lightly defended systems.  Plant a few of these on top of a FacIV or fabricator, and stop worrying about casual attacks.

Looking forward to the last two bonus ships yet to be revealed.  What wonders await us?

Offline Soyweiser

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 30
Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #239 on: September 01, 2012, 02:59:25 pm »
Spire blade spawners are awesome. Using these I kill build up trains of special forces. Enter wormhole, let train get near. Kill as much of them. Retreat. Weakened group goes away. Repeat. Even better, add the champion to spawn shields, and the enclave starships for even more stuff for the special forces meatgrinder.

They also target most guardposts, clearing up planets rather nicely. Work great on the defense if you have multiple fronts. (Move them around, they only need to enter the map). The only thing they cannot defeat is gravity. In a world with gravity changing stuff the spawned blades move very very slow.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 03:03:15 pm by Soyweiser »

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk