Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions

[TechSY730]

I still feel like the disparity of experience gained from nebula missions and "normal game activities" (killing guard posts, command stations, etc) is a little absurdly high right now. While I agree with nebula missions being more rewarding EXP than "normal game" stuff, can the gap between the two be shrunk a bit?

[keith.lamothe]

I still feel like the disparity of experience gained from nebula missions and "normal game activities" (killing guard posts, command stations, etc) is a little absurdly high right now. While I agree with nebula missions being more rewarding EXP than "normal game" stuff, can the gap between the two be shrunk a bit?

The normal game really isn't supposed to give a significant amount, partly because the focus of a champion's "growth" is supposed to be in the nebulae (they're plenty useful in normal space, and that's the strategic payoff), partly because there are relatively few things in normal space that cannot be made to appear in extreme quantity.  If fleet ships even gave 1/1000th of a point there are players who would be level 100 by mid/late game without ever entering a nebula, and making it only starships or guardians or whatever wouldn't be much better.

[TechSY730]

I still feel like the disparity of experience gained from nebula missions and "normal game activities" (killing guard posts, command stations, etc) is a little absurdly high right now. While I agree with nebula missions being more rewarding EXP than "normal game" stuff, can the gap between the two be shrunk a bit?

The normal game really isn't supposed to give a significant amount, partly because the focus of a champion's "growth" is supposed to be in the nebulae (they're plenty useful in normal space, and that's the strategic payoff), partly because there are relatively few things in normal space that cannot be made to appear in extreme quantity.  If fleet ships even gave 1/1000th of a point there are players who would be level 100 by mid/late game without ever entering a nebula, and making it only starships or guardians or whatever wouldn't be much better.

I'm not saying to give more things to grant EXP (that would lead to ridiculous situations, as you mentioned), but could you increase the EXP gained from killing guard posts and command stations a bit?

[keith.lamothe]

I'm not saying to give more things to grant EXP (that would lead to ridiculous situations, as you mentioned), but could you increase the EXP gained from killing guard posts and command stations a bit?

If it really makes you happier

But if I get complaints of it being too important to have your champion on hand for every single guard post or command station kill, it's going right back

[TechSY730]

I'm not saying to give more things to grant EXP (that would lead to ridiculous situations, as you mentioned), but could you increase the EXP gained from killing guard posts and command stations a bit?

If it really makes you happier

But if I get complaints of it being too important to have your champion on hand for every single guard post or command station kill, it's going right back

Hmm, there is the "pressure to grind" aspect I didn't think about.

Well, in this case, I'll leave it up to you (though, it really is up to you to begin with . But what I mean is that I won't care so much anymore either way), though I would like to hear what other people thing about this.

[Nodor]

I'm already grinding Champion XP.  The question is "where am I grinding it". 

Setting up a strategy to grind endlessly spawning ships in nebulas is easy to do.

Two questions I don't feel I have an answer to.

How many levels are needed equip a full set of top tear weapons/shields on my top level champion ship?  (For instance, to equip all the "level 2" base modules on a frigate is level 12 (11 points for Laser 2, Missle 1&2, Shield 2, Gun 2 & MLRS 2). 
15+ levels for destroyers and I assume 20+ levels for Cruisers)  There may be a level 5...   This math means I want level 50+. 

From my understanding of "difficulty" of nebula, I want about 15 levels per nebula so that on nebula 5+  I am ahead of the XP curve.

Now, I have been in 6 nebulas in 3 different games one of which was pre 5.062...  so I don't feel like I have my arms around this fully yet.

I don't know what the unlocks are, I don't know where the levels are, but I do know that I need a ton of levels to unlock the shiny toys I see - making where I grind the question.


 

[keith.lamothe]

The point is to specialize rather than try to max everything (though maxing everything even now takes way more than 50 points).  You can fight quite efficiently with only 2 module lines maxed (a small weapon and a large weapon), but maxing shields is a good idea too. 3 lines to mkV (yes, there will be 5) would be 42 points in the current model.  I'm planning to change the costs from 2/3/4/5 to 2/2/3/3 or something like that, and maybe have every 4th or 5th level give 2 points instead of 1.

There's a bunch of other modules you'll want to use in specific situations, but you won't really be able to max a bunch of them.  If the perceived need to do so becomes and continues to be a big thing I'll do something else with the XP model.

[Coppermantis]

Yes, everytime I bring the tackle drones into an engagement there are inevitably a great many ships trapped in the gravity well. It's fairly annoying, actually, since almost nothing can actually reach them.

Is that still happening in 5.067?

Ah, not anymore. I still think that they're a little too powerful but that's just my opinion.

[LaughingThesaurus]

One thing I want to suggest is to at least make the exp outside of nebulas feel like something. The problem I had with the model is just the fact that I get what, only 15 exp for each guard post and for the command station I think? First, on low difficulties, you really encounter only just a couple guard posts. And... assuming you did a nebula before killing anything outside of them, the exp that you earn is extremely underwhelming. I am not asking for anything like ships giving exp or something to that effect. What I do want, is to feel like the champion can gain a little something for being helpful outside of its own ventures. Otherwise, its solo ventures are the main appeal for a long time.
I wouldn't really know how to fix this. I know someone hinted at a suggestion of re-adding AI turrets to the game. If the AI got turrets, that could add to the exp earning game quite enough (first kill of every turret rebuilds not counted or something). On the other hand, I don't really know why they were removed in the first place! Maybe this is a terrible idea to even consider. Guard posts could just be worth MOAR EXPs, but that wouldn't really help either because then you have to bring the champion on every raid into AI territory or lose out on so much exp that you may as well be getting punished directly with that huge exp loss.

Ultimately though... I feel like exp out-of-nebula is not just underwhelming, it's not viable. I don't expect to be getting every module but I do want some growth for doing everything. While I say that, I'll totally admit that I might be completely off base here. It might be worth starting a poll when the whole working out the point earning and spending parts of your plan like you mentioned, just to see how everyone feels.

[TechSY730]

Yes, everytime I bring the tackle drones into an engagement there are inevitably a great many ships trapped in the gravity well. It's fairly annoying, actually, since almost nothing can actually reach them.

Is that still happening in 5.067?

Ah, not anymore. I still think that they're a little too powerful but that's just my opinion.

So still OP, but not "OMG, So OP it is hurting the game and making me rage/bored" (depending on which side the tackle drones are on)?
It seems that their unintentional speed buff with their acceleration being basically infinite now (aka, 0 to max speed in one game cycle), and their ability to easily tractor beyond the gravity well area was causing them to go to stupid OP levels.

[keith.lamothe]

The problem I had with the model is just the fact that I get what, only 15 exp for each guard post and for the command station I think?

In the currently public version, 20*mk for guard posts, 100*mk for command stations (there are only 3 marks of command station).  So quite a bit more than you're thinking, in practice, since there are rather few mark I AI planets

[keith.lamothe]

The Tacklers are still pretty OP, because they take more stuff out of the fight way longer and way more effectively than just about any other method of disabling.  And it "stacks" in a truly horrifying way with heavy-engine-damage and planet-wide-grav setups.

It can be balanced, but the total amount of tackling done is gonna have to come way down

[LaughingThesaurus]

With regards to what I said it was mostly with early game experience and more a focus on nebulas. So, it's not as bad as I thought. That's because I only DID attack mark I planets that had stuff I wanted.
Well... I can see champions being pretty awesome on fallen spire where you don't have to worry about vastly limiting the planets you take. Keep em around for each command station and get hundreds of exp. And.... I remember guard posts are way way more frequent on difficulties that are more sensible (like 7/7 and up).
I'm not really sure, I'd have to put it to practice after both owning the expansion and a computer that will stably run games. I can't really fix this one up without knowing someone who's actually legitimately tech-y. It had fatal error issues with AVWW that I posted about, it crashes on AI War and any other game under the sun. It's usually a memory access violation though, so... I think I have a wild guess as to what's wrong.
On the topic... I think you could certainly let exp values be for now. Those sound reasonable, and I just didn't notice because I was on a lower difficulty (5/5 I believe) with fewer guard posts and a severe lack of deadly things. Maybe something could be done about that but I can see that being a low priority for a long while.

[Toranth]

The Tacklers are still pretty OP, because they take more stuff out of the fight way longer and way more effectively than just about any other method of disabling.  And it "stacks" in a truly horrifying way with heavy-engine-damage and planet-wide-grav setups.

It can be balanced, but the total amount of tackling done is gonna have to come way down

Unlike everyone else, I'm not finding the Batwings OP.  They're certainly useful in conjunction with turret-only defenses, or with movement commands.  But I'm finding that if my fleet is on FRD or Attack-move, the TDs launch the closest few ships across the system, then half my fleet (that was targetting those ships) goes chasing off after them.  Anything vaugely resembling formation, position, or support goes out the window at that point.

But for tasks like defending a system against border aggression, or with Grav Drills, they're quite nice.  On offense?  Ok.  On wave defense?  No.
Finally, I'm surprised at the large number of tractor-immune things out there.  All starships, all guardians, and 24 fleet ships.

[orzelek]

The point is to specialize rather than try to max everything (though maxing everything even now takes way more than 50 points).  You can fight quite efficiently with only 2 module lines maxed (a small weapon and a large weapon), but maxing shields is a good idea too. 3 lines to mkV (yes, there will be 5) would be 42 points in the current model.  I'm planning to change the costs from 2/3/4/5 to 2/2/3/3 or something like that, and maybe have every 4th or 5th level give 2 points instead of 1.

There's a bunch of other modules you'll want to use in specific situations, but you won't really be able to max a bunch of them.  If the perceived need to do so becomes and continues to be a big thing I'll do something else with the XP model.

I can guarantee you that there will be people grinding nebula scenarios to get as much xp as possible. It's simply the completionist in us that will want to have everything unlocked, feel happy to have it and then go wreck a homeworld.

Would it be feasible to make more exp from normal combat (guardians, hybrids?, golems etc for exp) and simply add level cap that would increase with each scenario completed. It would need to be balanced in a way that after all scenarios you can get enough levels to get all the toys