Private alpha of Vengeance expansion has started

[Toranth]

@Toranth: on exotic and wave warnings/etc, exos are inherently cross-planet rather than wormhole based, making it wormhole-based would make it a different kind of attack (basically a special kind of schizo), not an exo.  As far as a timer, it would be possible but a lot of work because currently it doesn't use the wave scheduling thing at all.  Basically it launches the exo at the time it would have been scheduling the wave, not at the time it would have been launching the wave (which it doesn't even compute for Exotic, currently).

It would ok if exotic gave no warning or timer, however, it needs to be made very clear. I was expecting an exo meter similar other exo sources, and was very confused when I'd get these random brutal assaults.

I expected the Exotic AI exowaves to be cross-planet, that's what all Exos are.  What surprised me (to the point that I went more than an hour without realizing that it WAS sending waves) was that there was no announcement at all.  I had Vengeful on that game, so I had constant minor attacks anyway.  Result:  I had to check the logs to make sure everything was working.
Like chemical_art says, something to tell you it has happened.  Even a 10 second message saying "The AI has launched an Exogalatic wave!" would be good.


Speaking of messages, replacing Firepower with Strength led to the abbreviation FP replaced with S.  I suggest changing that to "Str" or something a little easier to recognize.  That font has a capital S that looks a lot like a 5.

[chemical_art]

@Tridus

Do you have a save?

There are about a dozen different things that I could imagine happening, but a save would answer the questions more quickly.

[Tridus]

@Tridus

Do you have a save?

There are about a dozen different things that I could imagine happening, but a save would answer the questions more quickly.

Yes, it's attached to the bug report about the SCL's being attacked.

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=11574

[keith.lamothe]

Playing around some more, the Chivalric (should be Chivalrous I think) AI doesn't treat Spire Civilian Leaders as irreplaceable structures, and attacks them.

Because the SCLs are violating their noncombatant status by directly hitting AIP

I could go either way on chiv+SCLs, but it seems like it would make the game rather easy indeed to just liberate all the SCLs and ignore them forthwith.

On the champ response hitting you with 7 champs at once when you only had a 1-nebula frigate, I'm not sure why it would be that big that early.  What was the clock at?


@Toranth & chemical_art on some kind of announcement of exotic wave: fair enough.

[tmm]

SCLs are *civilian* leaders though.  What kind of chivalric code allows attacking civilians? :p

[Tridus]

Because the SCLs are violating their noncombatant status by directly hitting AIP

I could go either way on chiv+SCLs, but it seems like it would make the game rather easy indeed to just liberate all the SCLs and ignore them forthwith.

That's reasonable, but if that's the case the description needs to be altered. Right now it says it won't do what it actually does, and as tmm mentioned it's not very chivalrous to attack civilians.

Maybe change it to something like "won't attack irreplaceable production or power generation facilities." Something that makes it clear that it's not going to ignore everything? (Or leave it as is, since it is an easy AI, and the second AI player could theoretically still attack them.)

On the champ response hitting you with 7 champs at once when you only had a 1-nebula frigate, I'm not sure why it would be that big that early.  What was the clock at?

That was at 2:46. I was about to start a second nebula. Considering how long the nebulas take, if I'm going to get that crazy a response to having one frigate I'm probably just going to turn it back off. It's a fun unit, but it takes a lot of attention and really isn't strong enough to justify that crazy a response. (That was the same Chivalric AI mentioned above, maybe it's getting a bonus by mistake or something?)

edit - Started up a fallen spire normal + champion game with the same two AIs. I'm seeing an inordinate number of AI shadow frigates again, and once again from the Chivalric AI. I'm not sure if that's a coincidence, or if that AI is just getting a really high number of shadow frigates (maybe due to it's CPA bonus?). Now I wish I'd turned off fog of war so I could see if it's really just that AI or not.


On another note - in another game I had the bouncer AI, a planet early on that I needed to capture for Fallen Spire (the first remote shard), a Raid Eye on the planet, and an interplanetary munitions booster. That was... interesting.

[chemical_art]

Keith, looking at Tridus save, indeed right at 2:46 they start to attack. If you load the game, pause and view uvgen at start, the enemy champs seem to be exhibiting freed threat behavior...

Given the total AIP is 204, it is 7/7 , and the timer is at 2:46 with only one nebula complete, it seems that something is odd for sure.

Given train of thought, by using starship IV's to see the AI HW have a reasonable amount of frigates (3 or 4), I'm wondering if perhaps they were freed due to something like rising AIP...maybe.

Regardless, too many were made.

[Wingflier]

Keith, I'm still convinced that there is something wrong with the Vengeful AI Personality behavior...

It is so intermittent and moody, and it doesn't seem to be an element of design.

For example, in my last game I killed over 10 guard posts and 2 Command Stations...1 after hacking it for 10 minutes.  With no response, not even a small exo wave.

But once again I kill 1 CSG and it sends an overwhelming force of 400 units suddenly that just wipes me out in seconds when I still only have 2 planets. Surely it wasn't intended to work like this. Doesn't it send a small force or anything when you kill guard posts and Comm Stations?

[keith.lamothe]

But once again I kill 1 CSG and it sends an overwhelming force of 400 units suddenly that just wipes me out in seconds when I still only have 2 planets. Surely it wasn't intended to work like this. Doesn't it send a small force or anything when you kill guard posts and Comm Stations?

It is supposed to respond to each thing killed, yes, though if AIP is low enough the budget may be so small it fails to actually generate an exo.

Do you have a save where killing a GP does nothing, but killing a CSG does something really nasty?

[Wingflier]

But once again I kill 1 CSG and it sends an overwhelming force of 400 units suddenly that just wipes me out in seconds when I still only have 2 planets. Surely it wasn't intended to work like this. Doesn't it send a small force or anything when you kill guard posts and Comm Stations?

It is supposed to respond to each thing killed, yes, though if AIP is low enough the budget may be so small it fails to actually generate an exo.

Do you have a save where killing a GP does nothing, but killing a CSG does something really nasty?

Yes.

In this save, there are a group of units positioned by the Comm Station on planet Chareras. Destroy it and nothing will happen.

Take another group of units to the planet Charyunzi, bordering the Human Homeworld, and destroy that CSG-E structure. You will get hit with a wave so massive that you can't even compete.

It seems like it's "stacking" the waves on top of each other, but not actually sending them until you take out CSGs or something, then it sends all the "stacked" waves at once. Obviously I don't know if this is actually happening but that's kind of how it seems from my side.

[keith.lamothe]

@Wingflier:

Code: [Select]

Triggering Vengeful Spawn due to death of OrbitalCommandStationAI
base vengeful value of unit = 100
AIP = 47
balancing factor = 0.5
tantrum exo budget = base * AIP * balancing factor =  2350

Triggering Vengeful Spawn due to death of WarpGate
base vengeful value of unit = 50
AIP = 52
balancing factor = 0.5
tantrum exo budget = base * AIP * balancing factor =  1300

Triggering Vengeful Spawn due to death of AISpireShieldSphereGuardPost
base vengeful value of unit = 50
AIP = 52
balancing factor = 0.5
tantrum exo budget = base * AIP * balancing factor =  1300

5/20/2013 3:02:58 PM (6.030)
-----------------------------------
Populating EventAttackArmada, 3525 total points; Game Time: 0:34:21

5/20/2013 3:02:58 PM (6.030)
-----------------------------------
BattleGroup of 3525 Points
FGType SubTier Tier CostEach Count TotalCost ReferenceOnly_StrengthEach ReferenceOnly_TotalStrength
Raider Medium Drone 8 8 64 1.96 15.67
RaiderII Heavy Drone 12 4 48 3.92 15.67
Fighter Heavy Drone 12 4 48 4 16
RaiderIII Light Cutter 16 4 64 5.88 23.51
MissileShip Light Cutter 16 2 32 4 8
FighterII Light Cutter 16 2 32 8 16
FighterIII Medium Cutter 24 4 96 12 48
MissileShipII Medium Cutter 24 3 72 8 24
RaiderIV Medium Cutter 24 1 24 7.84 7.84
FighterIV Heavy Cutter 32 2 64 16 32
BomberII Heavy Cutter 32 2 64 8 16
CoreRaider Heavy Cutter 32 3 96 9.79 29.38
Cruiser Heavy Cutter 32 1 32 12 12
ZenithBombardment Light Corvette 64 4 256 24 96
CoreFighter Light Corvette 64 1 64 20 20
BomberIII Light Corvette 64 1 64 12 12
CoreSniper Medium Frigate 96 2 192 96 191.99
ZenithSiegeEngineII Medium Frigate 96 1 96 24 24
AISpirecraftShieldBearerII Heavy Cruiser 2048 1 2048 48 48
Battlegroup actual budget spent: 3456 on 50 ships (for reference that is 325.38 strength).


5/20/2013 3:02:58 PM (6.030)
-----------------------------------
Populating EventAttackArmada, 1950 total points; Game Time: 0:34:21

5/20/2013 3:02:58 PM (6.030)
-----------------------------------
BattleGroup of 1950 Points
FGType SubTier Tier CostEach Count TotalCost ReferenceOnly_StrengthEach ReferenceOnly_TotalStrength
Raider Medium Drone 8 8 64 1.96 15.67
Fighter Heavy Drone 12 4 48 4 16
RaiderII Heavy Drone 12 4 48 3.92 15.67
RaiderIII Light Cutter 16 4 64 5.88 23.51
FighterII Light Cutter 16 2 32 8 16
MissileShip Light Cutter 16 2 32 4 8
FighterIII Medium Cutter 24 3 72 12 36
RaiderIV Medium Cutter 24 2 48 7.84 15.67
MissileShipII Medium Cutter 24 1 24 8 8
Bomber Medium Cutter 24 2 48 4 8
FighterIV Heavy Cutter 32 1 32 16 16
Cruiser Heavy Cutter 32 4 128 12 48
BomberII Heavy Cutter 32 2 64 8 16
ZenithBombardmentIV Light Frigate 64 1 64 96 96
SentinelFrigate Light Frigate 64 1 64 10.11 10.11
MunitionsBoosterII Light Frigate 64 1 64 20.21 20.21
AIGuardianSpiderIV Light Cruiser 1024 1 1024 384 384
None None None 0 0 0 null null
None None None 0 0 0 null null
Battlegroup actual budget spent: 1920 on 43 ships (for reference that is 605.91 strength).


5/20/2013 3:02:59 PM (6.030)
-----------------------------------
Populating EventAttackArmada, 1950 total points; Game Time: 0:34:23

5/20/2013 3:02:59 PM (6.030)
-----------------------------------
BattleGroup of 975 Points
FGType SubTier Tier CostEach Count TotalCost ReferenceOnly_StrengthEach ReferenceOnly_TotalStrength
Raider Medium Drone 8 8 64 1.96 15.67
RaiderII Heavy Drone 12 5 60 3.92 19.59
Fighter Heavy Drone 12 3 36 4 12
FighterII Light Cutter 16 4 64 8 32
RaiderIII Light Cutter 16 1 16 5.88 5.88
MissileShip Light Cutter 16 3 48 4 12
FighterIII Medium Cutter 24 4 96 12 48
Bomber Medium Cutter 24 2 48 4 8
RaiderIV Medium Cutter 24 1 24 7.84 7.84
MissileShipII Medium Cutter 24 1 24 8 8
CoreRaider Heavy Cutter 32 2 64 9.79 19.59
Cruiser Heavy Cutter 32 2 64 12 24
BomberII Heavy Cutter 32 1 32 8 8
FighterIV Heavy Cutter 32 2 64 16 32
AIGuardianRaider Light Destroyer 256 1 256 96 96
None None None 0 0 0 null null
None None None 0 0 0 null null
None None None 0 0 0 null null
None None None 0 0 0 null null
Battlegroup actual budget spent: 960 on 40 ships (for reference that is 201.38 strength).


5/20/2013 3:02:59 PM (6.030)
-----------------------------------
BattleGroup of 975 Points
FGType SubTier Tier CostEach Count TotalCost ReferenceOnly_StrengthEach ReferenceOnly_TotalStrength
Raider Medium Drone 8 8 64 1.96 15.67
Fighter Heavy Drone 12 5 60 4 20
RaiderII Heavy Drone 12 3 36 3.92 11.75
MissileShip Light Cutter 16 5 80 4 20
FighterII Light Cutter 16 3 48 8 24
MissileShipII Medium Cutter 24 3 72 8 24
Bomber Medium Cutter 24 1 24 4 4
FighterIII Medium Cutter 24 2 48 12 24
RaiderIV Medium Cutter 24 2 48 7.84 15.67
BomberII Heavy Cutter 32 1 32 8 8
FighterIV Heavy Cutter 32 3 96 16 48
Cruiser Heavy Cutter 32 3 96 12 36
AIGuardianGravity Light Destroyer 256 1 256 96 96
Battlegroup actual budget spent: 960 on 40 ships (for reference that is 185.71 strength).
This combined force caused some trouble for the HWs defenses and may actually result in death (unattended), but I didn't let that play out before popping one of the CSG-E's:

Code: [Select]

Triggering Vengeful Spawn due to death of CoreShieldGeneratorGroupESecondary
base vengeful value of unit = 200
AIP = 52
balancing factor = 0.5
tantrum exo budget = base * AIP * balancing factor =  5200So that shouldn't actually be fundamentally worse than the above (whose before-difficulty-adjustment total is 4950), right?

... wrong.  Y'know what else happens when you kill a CSG-E?

All the other CSG-E's (3 in this case) in the galaxy go boom at the same time.

Result: Ow.

Will adjust the CSG-B-thru-E responses

[keith.lamothe]

Oops, meant to mention: the reason popping the station on Chareras doesn't cause a response is that it's controlled by the other AI player, who doesn't have the Vengeful type.  To generate the first sample in my previous post I popped one of the Vengeful players stations.

[Wingflier]

Thanks Keith.

[Tridus]

Did you get a chance to look at the over abundance of AI Shadow Frigates, Keith?

[keith.lamothe]

Did you get a chance to look at the over abundance of AI Shadow Frigates, Keith?

Yep   The fix is in 6.031 (which was released a little earlier today) :

* Fixed a bug in recent versions where the "offensive nemesis" component of the AI's response to human champions could spawn too many nemesis champs because the previously spawned ones were dropping out of threatfleet due to being cut off from the AI HW's, and the "how many should I spawn?" logic for that particular bit counted TF nemesis units against its cap. Now it will count normal-Threat ones too.

That won't help you against any that have already spawned, but it should keep things from getting out of control (that particular way) in the future.