Prerelease 3.181 (New CoN features, AI Ship Counts Down, 45 New Guard Posts)

[x4000]

On a totally separate note, am I right in thinking that while loading a late-mid-game save from earlier under 3.181 would be suicidal, but the proposed changes for 3.182 should make it playable again?

Yep, and yep. And 3.182 is already out, so you can try it out for yourself to see.  You'll know if it is suicidal or not within about 2-3 minutes of loading it, if that.

[Vinraith]

Fantastic, thanks for that. 

[x4000]

You bet!

[RCIX]

Well, can A be taken care of at least?

I guess you missed the 3.182?

Yea actually. Sometimes i hit the "new" button for a thread, read down to the end of whatever page it plopped me on, then totally forget to check for more pages and just respond to something a dozen pages back in the discussion

[carlosjuero]

X, with all of the changes/plans/thoughts/etc.. please don't forget that there are those of us who love the game but aren't the hardcore players who breeze through the AI on any difficulty. I know I can step down AI difficulty level, but that also steps down the # of enemy ships in a given planet, which takes away from some of the fun. Making it so that there are no set ways to "game" the system is one thing, making it so difficult that you _have_ to be an expert to hope of winning is quite another.

This is just my opinion of course, but I often get worried that some of the more vocal players might be lending some "false data" in regards to how difficult the game is for everyone [no offense meant to either the development staff or the players, please don't take it as such]. I like how the game is constantly being tweaked, but I have this niggling fear [that grows larger with each update] that I may have to completely abandon the game because the "only way" to play will require much more skill than I have. Sure, it will mean that traditional strategies won't be usable (which is the point of the game from my understanding), but it will also turn it into a true Niche game for only those who have the forwithal to handle it.

I know it sounds kinda whiny for me to post that, I just want to get my thoughts out there before they get whipped away by more people wanting the difficulty upped or whatnot. I may sound petulant but its only because I have enjoyed this game so very much.

Sorry for the downer post, I do love the updates. Just carry on and don't pay any mind to me

time to update to 3.182 and see how it fares w/ my 25 hour game.

[Montaire]

Thanks, Montaire -- a lot of those ideas are really really heavy on the coding, so they're out of scope for what we're working on at the moment, but they are good ideas for the future, for sure.  With each expansion, we try to evolve it in some significant way.  At the moment, if you've not lost any planets for months (which I find pretty incredible in general), I'd suggest playing with the hybrid hives, possibly warp jumpers (those will get you), and certainly the latest betas with the new guard posts, etc.  I'll be interested in seeing how that changes things for you -- it sounds like you've got an incredible bottleneck going, and this is going to negate that somewhat.

I hear you. I love all the things you've done so far and we look forward to more. We're slowly marching our way up to AI level 10, and then we'll start turning on things like double waves,.

Right now we're playing 120 planets (Grid), blind exploration, all AI options on except trains. (Much <3 for schizophrenic waves)

We split up, one player going full offense and the other going defense & support. Defensive players only job is to defend planets from waves, CPA and any other threat. Offensive player sets the direction of advance, does the scouting and the taking of worlds. Support player gets Repair stations and sets up a logistics train.

We'll hit a system, he will clear the gate and I pop in with mobile builders build counter sniper, basic defense pack (5-10 laser turrets, 5 spider turrets) and sometimes a shield. In particularly harsh systems I'll build a fortress.

We don't even neuter systems, having that dedicated defense player makes all the difference.

[Diazo]

I haven't said much about this, but one thing that I'm working on focusing on is trying to make the players have to spread their fleets out more for offensive and defensive purposes, or to make it a gamble when they concentrate their forces too much.  I suppose I've only gone a little way down that road, but that is something I've been thinking about, as well.

I don't have any suggestions on this itself exactly, but I did want to bring up map types are going to heavily influence this.

I play Realistic type maps myself, and my initial ideas (which none of will really work) have reflected that.

My first thought was to give warp gates a 2 hop range, rather then just adjacent. I'm not actually suggesting this as on second thought I think it would be game breaking but it makes my point.

On a realistic type map with 3 or 4 connections on most planets this would be a steep, but probably manageable difficulty increase. On the map type with an average of 6 warp points a planet (complex?) it would be impossible, on a snake or concentric type map where most planets have 2 warp points, it would be pretty trivial.

Hmmm. On re-reading this post, I'm not actually sure if I have a point or not. Units/AI/Factions/Whatever behaving differently based on the map type selected would be a BAD thing, but map type does play a large role in a games ultimate difficulty.

D.

edit: Wow, lots of posts while I was posting in this thread.

X, with all of the changes/plans/thoughts/etc.. please don't forget that there are those of us who love the game but aren't the hardcore players who breeze through the AI on any difficulty. I know I can step down AI difficulty level, but that also steps down the # of enemy ships in a given planet, which takes away from some of the fun. Making it so that there are no set ways to "game" the system is one thing, making it so difficult that you _have_ to be an expert to hope of winning is quite another.

The biggest thing for this I think will be not turning all the minor factions or AI Plots. The AI Plots specifically say they are there as addons to make the game harder (I think, can't check in game atm) but while the core game itself is undergoing a major shift, I don't see it getting any harder. The game is changing at the moment, but I'm not seeing a major difficulty increase, just our actual tactics as players will have to change as well. I'll be starting and finishing (or planning to) a full game with the 3.183 patch so I'll be in a better position to comment on difficulty after that.

D.

[Vinraith]

@carlosjuero

I don't see anyone asking for an increase in difficulty here. If you're talking about me,  I just wanted to make sure the game would remain the excellent challenge it is (an irrational worry, in this case, but I've seen too many good games go the "dumbing down" route). Also, I don't think there are any "hardcore players who breeze through the AI on any difficulty" with this game, has anyone beaten a level 10 AI without making serious concessions and/or cheating?

[x4000]

X, with all of the changes/plans/thoughts/etc.. please don't forget that there are those of us who love the game but aren't the hardcore players who breeze through the AI on any difficulty. I know I can step down AI difficulty level, but that also steps down the # of enemy ships in a given planet, which takes away from some of the fun. Making it so that there are no set ways to "game" the system is one thing, making it so difficult that you _have_ to be an expert to hope of winning is quite another.

This is just my opinion of course, but I often get worried that some of the more vocal players might be lending some "false data" in regards to how difficult the game is for everyone [no offense meant to either the development staff or the players, please don't take it as such]. I like how the game is constantly being tweaked, but I have this niggling fear [that grows larger with each update] that I may have to completely abandon the game because the "only way" to play will require much more skill than I have. Sure, it will mean that traditional strategies won't be usable (which is the point of the game from my understanding), but it will also turn it into a true Niche game for only those who have the forwithal to handle it.

I know it sounds kinda whiny for me to post that, I just want to get my thoughts out there before they get whipped away by more people wanting the difficulty upped or whatnot. I may sound petulant but its only because I have enjoyed this game so very much.

Sorry for the downer post, I do love the updates. Just carry on and don't pay any mind to me

No worries, I'm never forgetting the entire range of players.  My goal is for practically nobody to win at 10, almost nobody at 9, only the really hardcore players at 8, the serious mid-level players at 7, those looking for a more relaxed time or those who want to have not the pressure of being right on every decision at 6, those that are new to AI War or somewhat new to the genre at 5, and those that are much more beginners below that.

That divide is not something that ever is going to change, my goal isn't for the game itself to become over-easy.  But when someone is playing at difficulty 8 and is never losing a planet for months, that's the sort of thing that never should happen.  Most likely a change for that would be at difficulty 8 and up, or possibly difficulty 7 or up, because someone who is having that problem is a pretty advanced player to begin with.  And a lot of the other extra challenges, like hybrid hives, are totally secondary and optional -- don't worry, I know the playerbase here on the forums trends to the more hardcore folks overall!

[x4000]

Right now we're playing 120 planets (Grid), blind exploration, all AI options on except trains. (Much <3 for schizophrenic waves)

We split up, one player going full offense and the other going defense & support. Defensive players only job is to defend planets from waves, CPA and any other threat. Offensive player sets the direction of advance, does the scouting and the taking of worlds. Support player gets Repair stations and sets up a logistics train.

We'll hit a system, he will clear the gate and I pop in with mobile builders build counter sniper, basic defense pack (5-10 laser turrets, 5 spider turrets) and sometimes a shield. In particularly harsh systems I'll build a fortress.

We don't even neuter systems, having that dedicated defense player makes all the difference.

Good luck!  Will be interesting to see what the current releases do for that.

My first thought was to give warp gates a 2 hop range, rather then just adjacent. I'm not actually suggesting this as on second thought I think it would be game breaking but it makes my point.

That's actually a really good idea for a special guard post, I think, though.  Rare, especially on the lower difficulties, but it could provide an interesting incentive to do deeper raids from time to time.  Main thing is that those would not have an AIP cost with them, and it wouldn't be all gates.  I like it a lot!

Hmmm. On re-reading this post, I'm not actually sure if I have a point or not. Units/AI/Factions/Whatever behaving differently based on the map type selected would be a BAD thing, but map type does play a large role in a games ultimate difficulty.

That's true, that's why we try to provide a variety there, too.

[x4000]

Also, I don't think there are any "hardcore players who breeze through the AI on any difficulty" with this game, has anyone beaten a level 10 AI without making serious concessions and/or cheating?

A few players claim so, mostly on youtube.  Either they cheated or they found some sort of specialized tactic that works, it's hard to say.  But some of the recent changes have specifically increased the difficulty scaling so that it's harder now on diff 8, 9, and 10 than it once was, while having less of an effect on the 5-7 range (and less of an effect on 8 than on 9 or 10).

Overall my goal is partly making this easier and harder, so that the games are shorter either way.  You either lose or win in fewer hours, and thus have the ability to take more risks and such because the stakes aren't quite so high.  After 25 (or whatever) hours into a game, people tend to get really conservative because they can't stand the thought of losing after all that time.  If the same game could be played in 10ish hours by cutting out the grind, that would be ideal to me.

[superking]

what is the thought behind the gaurdpost art style? I'm not a big fan as is, they dont look like installations of any kind so the concept of them somehow being important to the ai- or ai constructed and armed- seems a bit abstract

[snrub_guy]

So just booted up a new game with 3.182. Neizul Youngster and Starfleet commander (seeing how the nerf of him went) I have a couple of queries:

With the youngster, is the first wave that hits me meant to have 1000 odd ships in it? Just checking, because although he is meant to do bigger waves, 20x bigger seems a little steep. If it's meant to be like this, I'm fine, I'll just change my tactics a bit or something. Thought you should know incase it's a bug.

The second question is about astro trains. I thought we had made it so FRD troops wouldn't go after them, and turrets would prioritize them very low? I just had some laser turrets choose to target one instead of bombers in my tractor beams, and I think my FRDs were targeting one instead of the aforementioned 1000 ship wave, although they *might* have been hitting it on the way to defend against the raid, I'll keep playing and find out.

[Vinraith]

Also, I don't think there are any "hardcore players who breeze through the AI on any difficulty" with this game, has anyone beaten a level 10 AI without making serious concessions and/or cheating?

A few players claim so, mostly on youtube.  Either they cheated or they found some sort of specialized tactic that works, it's hard to say.  But some of the recent changes have specifically increased the difficulty scaling so that it's harder now on diff 8, 9, and 10 than it once was, while having less of an effect on the 5-7 range (and less of an effect on 8 than on 9 or 10).

Overall my goal is partly making this easier and harder, so that the games are shorter either way.  You either lose or win in fewer hours, and thus have the ability to take more risks and such because the stakes aren't quite so high.  After 25 (or whatever) hours into a game, people tend to get really conservative because they can't stand the thought of losing after all that time.  If the same game could be played in 10ish hours by cutting out the grind, that would be ideal to me.

That sounds good to me. I don't mind longer games, and am perfectly happy to lose them, but less time waiting wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I'm really looking forward to getting started with 3.182.

[x4000]

what is the thought behind the gaurdpost art style? I'm not a big fan as is, they dont look like installations of any kind so the concept of them somehow being important to the ai- or ai constructed and armed- seems a bit abstract

That I love Groboto, mainly.  But also that they look like structures that no human would build -- fitting for them being from aliens or the AI.