Author Topic: Prerelease 3.181 (New CoN features, AI Ship Counts Down, 45 New Guard Posts)  (Read 27031 times)

Offline Sizzle

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 189
Ah yes, I see!

I was aware of the penalty for the Zenith Generator but hadn't clocked the Ion Cannon!

Note to self: must read tooltips more carefully.

Perhaps (minor feature request, I can make a separate thread if needed) a prominent floating text indicator with the current wave multiplier for the planet, or another overlay in the galaxy view....

That way you have a real cue as to how much trouble you're buying for yourself with the golem you just activated multiplied by that space time manipulator on the same planet etc...

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Ah yes, I see!

I was aware of the penalty for the Zenith Generator but hadn't clocked the Ion Cannon!

Note to self: must read tooltips more carefully.

Perhaps (minor feature request, I can make a separate thread if needed) a prominent floating text indicator with the current wave multiplier for the planet, or another overlay in the galaxy view....

That way you have a real cue as to how much trouble you're buying for yourself with the golem you just activated multiplied by that space time manipulator on the same planet etc...


That's a good point, I'll look at a way of doing that.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Vinraith

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
@x4000

I suppose my concern is this: You've done a marvelous job of varying the offensive landscape, but you've largely done so by introducing new obstacles to forward movement (the new guard posts and core guard posts). Stationary objects in this game, however, can only slow me down or stop me, they can't kill me. Right now the only things that are a game-ending threat are starships and fleet ships. With the emphasis lately on reducing the number of those, and increasing the numbers of stationary obstacles, I'm sure the "border balance" or ability to move forward vs. need to wait/buildup/capture more resources is probably still fine (and the gameplay on the border is a lot more interesting), but I'm concerned that the risk of actually losing is being reduced. Along that axis, a structure cannot replace a body of, as in your example, core ships. Does that make sense?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 04:45:06 pm by Vinraith »

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Stationary objects in this game, however, can only slow me down or stop me, they can't kill me.
The Hybrids will take care of that ;D

(kidding, just had to say it)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Minty

  • Jr. Member Mark II
  • **
  • Posts: 69
Yeah.. Hybrids are certainly a shock!

I've tried out a few new games after having my Command Station handed to me a couple of times by Hybrids, and I've come to the conclusion that Beam Turrets, Mines, and (possibly, I've not tried them yet) Spider Turrets might be the way to go against them. Defensively at least.

Offensively, I'm still trying out ideas on how to crack AI worlds that have a gaggle of these blighters camping the Command Station. Time will tell. :)

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
@Vinraith

That does make sense, and I think we're on the same page about what the end effect should be, even if there is some question of the means.  But I think you've not looked closely at some of the guard posts.  Some of them, like the warp counter-attack guard post, create a whole new defensive challenge for players never seen before here.  Basically, a warp-style wave anywhere on the map with low warning.  And for players who try to rush things like the command station, if that's all the strength they have to do, there are defensive challenges with the new AI Barracks, too.

I haven't said much about this, but one thing that I'm working on focusing on is trying to make the players have to spread their fleets out more for offensive and defensive purposes, or to make it a gamble when they concentrate their forces too much.  I suppose I've only gone a little way down that road, but that is something I've been thinking about, as well.

When you combine this with the stuff that Keith has been doing with the hybrids, I think that's really a potent mix, but I want to do some more stuff in the base game, too -- thanks for reminding me, incidentally.  I think a lot of it comes down to a risk/reward cycle with this stuff on the AI planets.  Even a month ago, if there were 4000 or 5000 ships on an AI planet, so what?  Aside from a slight bit of border aggression, or maybe a CPA risk, that simply wasn't much of a concern unless you needed to go through that planet: and then the risk came from if you went about attacking that planet incorrectly, you risked losing via the retaliatory attack.

If anything, I'm trying to make the risk of retaliatory attacks greater, because that's interesting to me and in keeping with the "equal and opposite reactions" type of approach we have here.  I think that the warp counter-attack guard posts alone will negate some of the "sole bottleneck killing field" strategies that players have been getting used to, which I think can only be a good thing.  It's the AI equivalent of transporting units across a few hops, but without removing the tempo from the human player (unlike the Warp Jumper AI type in CoN).

In my opinion, the mobility of a structure has nothing to do with it -- it's what happens when you engage that structure, and what the consequences of losing (or winning, or ignoring) that structure are to the larger game map.  Since fixed structures are perfectly capable of launching cross-planet effects (going all the way back to the warp gates, but even more recently including raid engines, etc), I think those help to increase the challenge and make the risk of losing greater than it ever has been.

That said, just the few mechanics that I've put in so far probably are not enough to really accomplish what I (and, from the sound of things, you) want; I really should make it a priority for this week to add in a bit more of that.

Another way to put it is this: I think your concern is that the AI is losing its ability to direct force in potentially game-ending ways.  That has been one of my number one concerns for the entire life of the game, and has been the genesis behind many of my changes and additions (CPAs, border aggression, you name it: all motivated by that).  In my view, just cranking up the ship cap and letting the AI overrun the players if the players try to grab the command station wasn't cutting it -- it was too easy for the players to find a good bottleneck planet on the map, and it was also just as easy for them to go around to each guard post, killing all the AI ships as they did, with just the overflow from the wormhole guard posts posing any threat of overrunning at the end (and with any halfway decent bottleneck, that risk was minimal).

So I've been seriously scaling back the performance-affecting, grind-causing style of having bulk AI ships, and instead have been focusing on new mechanics that would let the AIs use warp at certain player-controlled times in order to create a more interesting overrun effect that requires some level of defense-in-depth.  Even with just the counterattack guard posts that are currently there, you still have to have some form of defense in depth even though those are pretty rare; and that right there hampers the ability of players to create a good bottleneck planet, which in turn makes CPAs and waves more of a risk without actually making them any tougher directly, and so on.

It's a whole little ecosystem I'm trying to get going there, but the question is whether or not it is yet having the effect that I want.  If not, then I think the solution is more clever new and different force-directing-from-afar mechanics, rather than just beefing up ship counts on the wrong side of the bottlenecks.

To be clear, feedback is very welcome, and if people want to post ideas about force-directing-from-afar mechanics based on what I've written in this post, then I'm all ears.  I can't promise to do all or any of the suggestions, of course, depending on the programming difficulty involved, but I'd like to make that more varied than what I have done already and what I'm planning for soon.  So ideas are welcome!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Vinraith

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
You're right, I haven't had a chance to look at a lot of the new guard posts (my current game is late-game enough that I haven't dared to update, lest I get swamped by border aggression, though it sounds like 3.182 is going to solve that) so I was unaware that many of them address this issue. I'm glad to hear you're on it, and it does sound like we're on the same page. I'm also thrilled to hear this will be a priority in the near future. With that, I'm going to shut up, since I clearly need to play more on the current patch to be able to provide any useful feedback.  :-[ Thanks, as always, for laying out your thinking on the issue with such clarity and detail.  :)

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
No worries, all good, and my pleasure.  As far as the new guard posts go so far, I wouldn't classify it as "many of them address this issue."  A couple do, and those couple are intentionally rare.  I've been tiptoeing into this area, not wanting to completely obliterate the normal way of playing, while at the same time wanting to shake things up enough on occasion that people have to rethink their defacto defensive setups.  For example, in my current multiplayer game there is routinely no allied ship within 8 hops of any of our home planets, and this is no trouble because we're defending the front lines with those ships.  We don't even have any turrets remotely near the home command stations, not within a good 5 hops.  We've got four planets in a line that are all our bottleneck-in-depth.

Now that the counterattack guard posts are in play, even though they are somewhat rare, that means that we might have to contend with "flights into our back country" so to speak.  Rather like the AI using air transports in SupCom or Empire Earth or similar, it's a completely new sort of feeling.

That said, it may not be enough.  We'll just have to see.  In older versions of the game, there was much more risk of "not winning" than of outright losing.  The new stuff is intended to make it easier, in some senses, to win -- it won't take so many hours to grind stuff, for example.  But at the same time, making it easier to outright lose, too.  That way there are fewer of those stalemate situations where the AI wins because the players give up, heh.

I think more will need to be done in that direction, but this is at least a start, as I've noted.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline RCIX

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,808
  • Avatar credit goes to Spookypatrol on League forum
Well, can A be taken care of at least? :)
Avid League player and apparently back from the dead!

If we weren't going for your money, you wouldn't have gotten as much value for it!

Oh, wait... *causation loop detonates*

Offline Montaire

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 17
This is something I have thought a great deal about, and the issue is that of graceful and intelligent escalation. The entire game is based on escalation of hostilities, starting at a low heat and rising to a mad boil. This can be tricky because the escalation has to be transparent to the players and involve some kind of trade off - benefit vs cost.

A few ideas we've had in the past :

Sleeping Giants. The old war machines of the past lie dormant, but once the players have taken X number of planets the sleeping sentinels awake. An avenger like ship that originates at a fixed point in the galaxy and gathers idle ships at every system it goes through on the way to the players home system. Either you fly out and hit this thing head on, or you begin a fighting withdraw past your own defensive barriers and hope to stop it before you lose somethign critical.

Glass Ceiling : At 1,000 ship intervals something happens. Once the players go from 999 ships to 1,000 ships a trigger happens that you cannot go back on. Perhaps every guard post adjacent to a player system spawns 1 ship and send it at the player every 60 seconds. The benefit here is a constant 'sparkle' of ships flowing through the players systems. I can build a 4,000 ship mega fleet, but if I do I'll have every guard post spawning 4 ships per minute pelting against my border defenses. This sort of low-level yet constant pressure on the defenses could be great.

Networked AI : Whenever an AI is outnumbered on a planet, ships begin to spawn at every guard post adjacent and those ships begin high-tailing it to the new system to reinforce.

The Third Party : Upon passing X number of total energy used, the AI begins to evolve a new identity. Somewhere in the system a new, 'baby' AI spawns.

I'm playing on AI difficulty 8, with a friends in co-op and it has been months since we've lost a system. The AI just never throws anything that scary at us.

PS - I hate the Peacemaker, mass drivers on every planet seem a bit much.


To be clear, feedback is very welcome, and if people want to post ideas about force-directing-from-afar mechanics based on what I've written in this post, then I'm all ears.  I can't promise to do all or any of the suggestions, of course, depending on the programming difficulty involved, but I'd like to make that more varied than what I have done already and what I'm planning for soon.  So ideas are welcome!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Well, can A be taken care of at least? :)

I guess you missed the 3.182? :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Vinraith

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 806

That said, it may not be enough.  We'll just have to see.  In older versions of the game, there was much more risk of "not winning" than of outright losing.  The new stuff is intended to make it easier, in some senses, to win -- it won't take so many hours to grind stuff, for example.  But at the same time, making it easier to outright lose, too.  That way there are fewer of those stalemate situations where the AI wins because the players give up, heh.


Yeah, those frustrating stalemate situations have traditionally been the weakest part of a very strong game design, so I'm glad you're moving in the direction you are. I'll be interested to see what's next. :)

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Thanks, Montaire -- a lot of those ideas are really really heavy on the coding, so they're out of scope for what we're working on at the moment, but they are good ideas for the future, for sure.  With each expansion, we try to evolve it in some significant way.  At the moment, if you've not lost any planets for months (which I find pretty incredible in general), I'd suggest playing with the hybrid hives, possibly warp jumpers (those will get you), and certainly the latest betas with the new guard posts, etc.  I'll be interested in seeing how that changes things for you -- it sounds like you've got an incredible bottleneck going, and this is going to negate that somewhat.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651

That said, it may not be enough.  We'll just have to see.  In older versions of the game, there was much more risk of "not winning" than of outright losing.  The new stuff is intended to make it easier, in some senses, to win -- it won't take so many hours to grind stuff, for example.  But at the same time, making it easier to outright lose, too.  That way there are fewer of those stalemate situations where the AI wins because the players give up, heh.


Yeah, those frustrating stalemate situations have traditionally been the weakest part of a very strong game design, so I'm glad you're moving in the direction you are. I'll be interested to see what's next. :)

Yeah, that's been my bugbear since early alpha, honestly.  It's like a remainder on an otherwise well-balanced equation. ;)  But I think that this is going in the right direction lately, I feel like I've finally had a breakthrough on that.  CPAs, when those were added, were also a big breakthrough.  They turned at least 30% of stalemates I've had into losses, which I view as a good thing.  But then again, that's made it so that I lose 80% of the time lately, which is too much.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Vinraith

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
On a totally separate note, am I right in thinking that while loading a late-mid-game save from earlier under 3.181 would be suicidal, but the proposed changes for 3.182 should make it playable again?